"Light Twin" fatal at Hawarden

[rustle]

F900 Ex, agree completely

Maybe my comment Nailing blueline is paramount unless you are committed to landing IMO
should have read: Nailing blueline is paramount unless you are committed to landing IMO *OR* you need to climb at Vxse

Now in the 310R they (Vyse / Vxse) happen to be the same IAS, however your point is well made.

[Pace]

F900

I am talking exclusively about light twins in an engine out situation.
I am not talking about flying ballistic missiles but light twins some which will not give you a climb at all whatever you do.
As such I feel they are unique and a number of options need to be considered which might be pulling both back and taking to a field. how many train for PFLs in light twins?

pace

[F900 Ex]

Pace

I am talking exclusively about light twins in an engine out situation

pace


Vxse will still be lower than Vyse so your original statement of never going below blue line is wrong and could be misleading to your lowest common denominator pilot.

As MJ stated aerodynamic principles jet or piston are the same and to be correct it is you and MJ who keep going on about jets.

[Pace]

Would you like to publish some light twin VYSE and VXSE FIGURES?
Frankly you will be lucky to go up at all on many at any speed !!!

Pace

[F900 Ex]

Pace
Would you like to publish some light twin VYSE and VXSE FIGURES?
Frankly you will be lucky to go up at all on many at any speed !!!

Pace


No I wouldn't like to publish any figures, I am now being pedantic over this argument that you should follow the manufactures tried and tested proven procedures, so that the lowest common denominator pilot has a chance of regressing back to what he learnt during training should an emergency situation develop.

And all of the 15+ different piston multi engined aircraft I have flown all produced a positive climb of some description on one engine during C of A testing when operated according to the manufacture's procedures.

[mad_jock]

I don't talk about jets I don't fly them. Just done 2 sectors with two fans outside the window.

Once safely at blueline (on one engine) there is nothing wrong with turning (in either direction) at reasonable bank angles exceeding 5 degrees

Go and look at that paper and see what happens to the Vmca.

But fundamentally your PIC so its your risk analysis. Me I keep to my 5 degree of bank. Never had an Vmca incident in the sim. Watched quite a few mind.

Last one was to base after a circling approach with one stage of flap to go.

The FO didn't get the power up as we did a 30 degree bank turn. Stick shaker triggered. He quite happily lowered the nose slightly and fire walled the good engine doing the stall recovery. Thankfully as I saw him go for the power lever I shut my eyes (I was dead). 1.5 seconds later the sim had crashed and we had managed to blow one of the hydraulic lines with the turn reversal. The eye shutting was to stop me barfing.

So I am quite happy for you guys to continue doing what you like without me onboard

Go on the FX next time you do your flight tests descend at a suitable height at simulated idle at blue line speed and then turn 15 degrees and fire wall the outside engine and then post a pic of the condition of your underpants.

[Miserlou]

MJ,
So you are saying that after making a mistake, the first officer took the wrong corrective action which lead to loss of control.

That doesn't mean that not making the original mistake is dangerous!

You really make flying MEP or MET sound really dangerous, fireballs and test pilot country and the like.

I just hope that whoever is flying when I am a passinger has more confidence and understanding of the aerodynamics than you seem to have.

Just for a laugh, go try your 5 degree banked turns in the missed approach at Chambery or Innsbruck. Please only in the sim though.

And btw, a spiral dive is a totally coordinated flight condition. Often occurs when people stop rolling in the second half of a barrel roll.

F900EX,
Is one not allowed to use the ailerons? The uncontrollable TURN occurs due to insufficient RUDDER authority. The uncontrollable ROLL comes from insufficient AILERON authority. Otherwise the aircraft would just turn.
That is why Vmca certification includes maximum force on both rudder AND aileron.

[Pace]

And all of the 15+ different piston multi engined aircraft I have flown all produced a positive climb of some description on one engine during C of A testing when operated according to the manufacture's procedures.

F900Ex

I think all this is becoming a bit pedantic and point scoring None of us posting here are idiots obviously you fly to the manufacturers figures. We had quite a problem on my last Jet flight and you go to the emergency checklist.

Yet I have flown with many pilots who seem incapable of flying accurately taking gear or flaps at wrong speeds and you ask yourself what is so difficult at flying accurate numbers. Many get behind the aircraft or a situation or cannot pick up their game to what is happening around them. but we are all different!

As a side note the manufacturers of light twins gain their climb rates based on brand new aircraft with fresh engines not some 30 yr old beaten up near time expired wreck.

Whether 5 hrs for a multi engine rating is adequate? But what do I know.
There is a massive difference from theorising in front of the computer with a cup of cocoa or something stronger in your hand and being in an aircraft maybe in bad weather when something goes seriously wrong.

But with your skils and experience you know that.

Please feel free to go through my posts and pick out mistakes! I am sure you will find one somewhere as yes I have a lot of experience flying in **** but have been lucky but like most of us other than the Sky Gods make a small error now and again even in these forums.

i mentioned jets because thats what I fly maybe high powered turboprops would have been a better example compared to minimal performance light twins

Sadly a very experienced pilot and his companion were killed! Ok its possible he had some catastrophic failure or had a coronary at the controls but more likely the poor guy got it wrong.
we all make mistakes you included unless you are truly a Sky God. Some of us get away with it a small portion do not with fatal and awful consequences.

Pace

[HS125]

I've just heard form my parents who also knew Gary, and were kind enough to attend the funeral on my behalf. Some of the content isn't for public consumption especially concerning those who didn't show, comment or make themselves represented; I'm cutting and pasting those parts which are, verbatim:

Hi Jeff,

A very upbeat service in which Gordon and Gary's son showed true grit delivering a Eulogy for both Gary and Kaye.

The Chapel was packed and overflowed.
Most of Chester was there…….

Under the circumstances it was as good as it gets and I think Gordon's appreciation of your input and support was plainly apparent when we introduced ourselves to him both at the Service and at the wake from which we have just returned.

It's been a hellish day, but hopefully this can be the first step to closure and they can rest in peace. Godspeed to you both.

[mad_jock]

Just for a laugh, go try your 5 degree banked turns in the missed approach at Chambery or Innsbruck. Please only in the sim though.


yes I hold a cat C for that airport. And you don't need more than 5 degrees bank with our single engine profile until you have accelerated.

And no he sort of did and sort of didn't, he did do what the stall procedure is. Decrease angle of attack and apply power before rolling wings level and if he had been both engines it would have worked a treat. If he had rolled the wings level, then applied the power he would have got away with it as well. But he didn't and Vmca bit his bum.

You really make flying MEP or MET sound really dangerous, fireballs and test pilot country and the like.

yes it can be with people that don't know what they are dealing with. But thankfully we don't have that many engine failures. I have landed one in tens years that was a true shutdown in flight. And commercial ops the emergency procedures are designed by performance engineers which protect the crew from having to think. You as GA twin drivers don't have any of that protection you just have to know it.

You arguing the toss and you have never seen a Vmca incident it happens in under a second. Its not a gradual thinking you are loosing it and then it gentle rolls on its back. The whole thing happens in under a second. Not enough time to think :mad: mad_jock was right.

Don't worry I have double figures of TRE's in my license that deem me fit to command a Transport multicrew aircraft.

Your opinion is quite frankly meaningless has zero impact on me or what I do and teach other commercial pilots.

[piperboy84]

This what you guys are talking about?

GMA News: YouScooper captures chilling video of Parañaque plane crash (December 10, 2011) - YouTube (http://youtu.be/YqmomTUVsAw)

[mad_jock]

Thats the video I was thinking about.

[Pace]

Looking at that video found this horrendous video with some terrible crashes the message keep it flying comes to mind.
Some well flown crashes too
????????? #1 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71nTGcHIAV8&feature=youtu.be)

[Miserlou]

MJ,

You tone bores me now. This is how I became an atheist. When I realized the Skygod was talking rubbish.

Seems you know SO much more than I do, even about me.

From the 'nothing' I do know, I can however inform anyone who will accept/understand the information (obviousy that's not you MJ), I tried accelerating from below Vmca on one engine in an ATR and it just resulted in a flat turn as the aileron still had authority after the rudder reached full deflection. As we approached Vmca the heading steadied and less rudder was required as the aircraft accelerated.

[mad_jock]

Well if you fire wall the good engine in a 30 degree bank turn at blue line speed you will find out if you were right or not on that point as well.

[Miserlou]

'Firewalling' engines is rather bad airmanship. Is this why you have such a hard time controlling the aircraft?

[mad_jock]

Yep its a common occurance for pilots to be issued an ATPL get put in the LHS and get put in a training role when they struggle handling an aircraft.

Go get a copy of that swatton book and learn what your playing with.

Then maybe you won`t end up like that twin did turning downwind in the video.

I presume you have run out of any technical arguments as you have gone down the personal insult style of debate.

[Pace]

This is not directed at anyone but just a fact of life in internet forums.

It is a fact of life that face to face we would 99% of the time be respectful to each other courteous and understanding.

Stick a bunch of all good pilots but slightly different in a forum (Maybe it the no face text thing ) and it ends up as a Willy waving exercise With a bunch of Egos all trying to prove they are better or more knowledgeable than the others.

Yes! mistakes should be corrected for the benefit of others and sadly we all make mistakes but there are respectful and diplomatic ways of doing that and Willy waving ways of doing that :ugh:

Oh well

Pace

[Jetblu]

I cannot see what all the fuss is about. Directly and indirectly you are all right!

I think everyone here has acknowledged that a twin will bite if you are behind the game. I, for one, hands up, was behind the game when I was least expecting an engine to go on the climb out from Pietermaritzburg (Oribi)
in a Cessna 414. Fortunately, I had some height, but I very nearly put that
on its back. :ooh:....and when it happens, she will go as fast as mad_jock
explains.

Whether we call it "firewalling" the live throttle OR advancing the throttle to max power is neither here nor there, it's the same thing.

Personally, I wouldn't advocate use much more than 5 degrees of bank either way with an engine out. Yes, you can apply more, but strictly speaking you are in unknown territory, and will not find anything to substantiate this in the POH.

I have many hours on the aircraft type in this dreadful tragedy. She has a reasonably good single engine climb performance, but she is a slippery ship.

Safe flying all.

[Miserlou]

Quote,
"Yep its a common occurance for pilots to be issued an ATPL get put in the LHS and get put in a training role when they struggle handling an aircraft."

Oh yes. Seen so many times. And they get promoted to management too.

By the way, nasty crash in the video. I have not read the report but it just looks like a spin accident to me. Watch the rudder. Starts centered goes to full right as the wing drops.

[mad_jock]

Life must be a bitch for you Miserlou all these people that you know better than promoted above you.

just looks like a spin accident to me

That really doesn't surprise me.

[F900 Ex]

MJ
I presume you have run out of any technical arguments as you have gone down the personal insult style of debate.


When all else fails then the old skygod crap comes out.


Pace
But with your skils and experience you know that.

Please feel free to go through my posts and pick out mistakes! I am sure you will find one somewhere as yes I have a lot of experience flying in **** but have been lucky but like most of us other than the Sky Gods make a small error now and again even in these forums.

[rustle]

My last post on this (I know I said that before) because pissing contests are not my thing. Exception being if someone questions my maths below!

I did some maths homework to see where our theoretical maximum 5 degree bank would lead me and the results are here:

In very simple terms if one was stuck with 5 degrees bank when engine out then ATZs will have to be considerably larger to accommodate MEP and IR training and tests else EFATO asymmetric-circuit-to-land will all be way outside the airport's ATZ.

A practical example: In the case of Blackbushe we'd have to co-ordinate with Farnborough because we'd be overhead them when downwind [Blackbushe]

Maths below including knowns:

Blackbushe and Farnborough runways are within 10 degree of parallel, approx. 4nm (centre to centre) separates the two.

Turn Radius = TAS^2 /(Tan Bank Angle X G)

Where TAS is in Ft/sec, Bank Angle is in degrees, and G is in Ft/sec^s

6076 ft/nm

This example Vyse (blueline) is 107 KIAS
107 KIAS = 180.596 FPS
Bank angle = 5 degrees
Gravity = 32.174 ft/s/s

[for completeness, a climbing rate 1 turn (practised engine-out for any ME-IR candidate) at that speed would require [I]about 17 degrees of bank]

t/f

radius of turn is

(180.596 * 180.596)
-------------------
Tan(5) * 32.174

=

32614.9
-------
2.815

=

11586.1 (feet)

=

1.9 NM RADIUS

NB diameter of turn (to where you would be start of ‘downwind’ leg) is min 3.8NM in nil wind; more if slight northerly component (in this example)

[Pace]

F900Ex

All four of us dominant in the latter half of this discussion are good experienced pilots.
Yes take everything apart for detailed scrutiny till the accurate answer is achieved for lesser experienced pilots and for me as I am not a Theoretical SkyGod but why all the Willy waving and who are the Sky Gods MJ Me (don't think so) yourself or Miserlou.
I knew some lovely pilots who i considered Sky Gods and i am afraid that is where they are.

Pace

[F900 Ex]

I ain't doing any willy waving that I know of, just trying to put a point across of following established manufactures procedures.

As for the skygod stuff never mentioned it in any of my posts until 272, and once you reach that level of status it is time to give up anyway.

So lets put an end to it and have a sensible discussion. :ok:

[mad_jock]

rustle your maths looks ok to me .

There is a difference with practise and real. The ability to bring the "dead" engine up to sort things out is always there.

The ATZ wouldn't figure in my cunning plan. In the works machine we are never in it until on finals.

And if there was a runway within 10 degrees and 4 miles away ahead I sure as hell wouldn't be doing a single engine circuit if it was a real one.

BTW our standard emergency procedure for airports without terrain issues is straight ahead to 1700ft agl accelerate then a 20-25deg turn back to the locator Which we wouldn't start until over 150knts with a Vyse of 120knts and by that point the power would have come back to about 65-70% torque which would have brought the Vmca down by 30% from an initial value of 101knts so we have a safety factor of 2 before starting the turn. Our Vrotate speeds are limited by Vmca until we are only a couple of 100kg off MTOW.

[Pace]

F900Ex

:ok:good all friends again

Pace

[F900 Ex]

MJ
BTW our standard emergency procedure for airports without terrain issues is straight ahead to 1700ft agl accelerate then a 20-25deg turn back to the locator Which we wouldn't start until over 150knts with a Vyse of 120knts


Madjock this contradicts just about all of your previous posts, 5 degrees of bank max. :ugh:


Pace

:ok:

[Meldex]

Madjock this contradicts just about all of your previous posts, 5 degrees of bank max.

I don't see the argument. I can't be bothered to wade through reams of posts to prove any point, but it seems to me MJ is saying 5 degrees of bank max when trying to climb at blue line speed, and would presumably accelerate once MSA is reached whereupon steeper turns would be in order.

All sounds very sensible to me.

[F900 Ex]

Meldex
I don't see the argument. I can't be bothered to wade through reams of posts to prove any point, but it seems to me MJ is saying 5 degrees of bank max when trying to climb at blue line speed, and would presumably accelerate once MSA is reached whereupon steeper turns would be in order.

All sounds very sensible to me


Then may I ask you to spend a bit of your time wading through the reams of posts to come up with a sensible answer instead of just jumping on the band wagon spouting crap.

[Meldex]

I have no time to wade through your rantings just trying to prove that someone is wrong. I suppose from your Falcon you look down on the rest of us, so you assume everyone else knows nothing.

[mad_jock]

No Meldex has it right, that's what I am saying.

I would also say as well even when not climbing once your speed is back to near blue line limit your angle of bank to 5 degrees if your power is up.

Also as well be aware if you are doing more than 5 degrees bank check your speed before powering up anywhere near full chat and decrease your angle of bank. A stall recovery in a turn needs the bank angle dealt with before full power is applied.

Also be aware what your simulated zero power is and if your below that shut the engine down and secure it as your just wasting energy and increasing your Vmca keeping it running.

The only time to not do this is when your about to hit the ground anyway any you may get lucky and it saves the day.

[Cessnafly]

rustle. your maths is shiote. You'll never make a skygod. :p

[F900 Ex]

[QUOTE]
Meldex
I have no time to wade through your rantings :ok:

A Falcon, no idea what your on about. ?

[rustle]

rustle. your maths is shiote. You'll never make a skygod. :p

Thanks, your careful analysis and explanation of where I am wrong is appreciated. :ok:

[mad_jock]

http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/528177-vee-trans-240-mayday-luton.html

Aye they certainly did and with that damage your book numbers are out the window.