Becoming an FI

[Straighten Up]

I am a current PPL holder, just started by ATPL ground school and hour building, trained at a school in the south east (uk) and hoping to become a flying instructor. I am not looking to hour build at someone else's expense then go off and fly jets in a year or two. I actually want to teach and have a few questions.

I know that I'm not going to become rich doing this but what is the realistic income if I teach PPL and say CPL/ME/aerobatic pleasure?

I overheard someone at my school say that instructor rate is around £30/flight hour - does that sound right? How many hours a week on average in summer/winter do you work?

Is it realistic to teach CPL/ME if I don't do my IR immediately or is it expected that an FI will have a fATPL?

My school always seems busy (especially weekends) and I've struggled to get a slot before, which strikes me as good news for an aspiring FI - is there a decent demand at the moment?

Thanks in advance.

SU

[Whopity]

Its probably fair to say if you teach PPL you will never recover the cost of the qualification.

You do not need a fATPL to teach, but if you want to teach commercially then you would need to be able to teach for the IR if you want a reasonable wage. The cost of gaining this qualification has recently increased by about £30K as you now need 200 hours under IFR to even begin. This may have a knock on effect with the larger schools where there will undoubtedly be a shortage of such instructors. As an alternative, this may prompt a move towards the MPL where they can use ex airline pilots and the straight through FI will not get a look in because they won't have the required 1500 hours experience on multi-pilot aeroplanes if they have not worked for an airline!

The whole thing is an ill-conceived mess. The future for the professional FI does not look cost effective for those just starting out.

[hobbit1983]

To answer (some) of your questions from my experience (3 years instructing PPL full time in the SW of England before moving on last month);

Realistically, your income is going to be very low and not liveable on if you teach full time PPL. The school I just left paid around about £20/flight hour. Some FT FIs were on a small retainer, others were not. This worked out around £ 1300-1500 per month in summer, and £700-900 per month in winter. Before tax, although if you got yourself a good accountant and were paid self employed then you'd not pay very much to HMRC. Hours wise I did about 400 a year.

Demand in my experience varies a lot from school to school; I know of schools that are very busy at the moment with another school 50 miles away which is going through a slack period. Obviously weekends are more popular and winter cuts down on flying.

[Straighten Up]

Thanks Hobbit. That's very helpful and broadly what I had in mind hours wise. I figured 15hrs a week (sat, sun and 1 w/d) and probably 30 weeks a year which got me to 450/yr. As it won't be full time and I have another business the wages aren't the sole focus but it's always good to know....

Thanks again.

[wet wet wet]

You'll be lucky to fly for fifteen hours in three days. The most you can fly is around five hours in a day allowing time for briefs/debriefs/paperwork. That is assuming that you get bookings for five hours a day, before weather, student cancellations and sick aircraft. Realistically expect an average of two hours per day over the year. You will not get rich, just recovering the cost of your training will be a bonus. We're mad but we do it because we love to fly and enjoy helping others to love flying.

[foxmoth]

I would say keep an open mind - I thoroughly enjoyed instructing and air taxi, never wanted to join the airlines. It finally got to the stage that I said to myself "do I still want to be flying for no money when I am 40" - I am now a fairly senior Airbus Captain, but still instruct in my spare time because I enjoy it.:ok:

[RedBullGaveMeWings]

Intructing is one of my long term goals regardless of getting a job in the airline industry or not, I would keep instructing anyway because of the sheer passion of flying I think I suppose to have.
I know our old loved and hated Europe is different from the US where you just need a CPL to obtain the necessary qualifications to instruct on MEP, SEP and Instrument conditions. What are the requirements in Europe to teach commercial and instrument training?
Will I have to hour build at my own expenses after the CPL to become fully unrestricted?

[mad_jock]

You need to sit down and read CAP814 then make a cunning plan.

Under EASA its virtually impossible to become a Instrument instructor without working as a commercial pilot outside instructing.

[RedBullGaveMeWings]

Virtually, you said... hence I'd need to build my total time up untill I get 200 IFR hours? Nice, thanks EASA.

[mad_jock]

Its something like that or could be more.

I have the same problem with MEP time and CRI etc.

I Have been flying twin engine manual (ie no AP) TP's for years have 1000's of hours on them.

I had an unrestricted FI rating as well.

My MEP is out since I started flying TP's.

Similar to most FI's who went to airlines I have about 50 hours twin time but none of it PIC.

To be able to become a CRI on MEP which is required to be an instrument instructor on them I would have to build 30 hours PIC time on MEP which is over 10 grand. So for anyone wanting to go down your route its getting on for 20k in ratings and hour building for a commercial pilot with over 5000 hours commercial flying.

For a FI who has come to the conclusion that they will never fly airlines or it just doesn't interest them your talking 40k for building 110-150 (depends on how many hours you can claim with your IR training) hours in a IFR single, 30 hours in a twin (IFR and PIC), CRI MEP, IRI. If you don't already have a FI that's another 7k. You would be virtually unemployable if you just tried to go straight to IRI, CRI MEP without commercial experience just by hour building.

[S-Works]

The whole thing has become a bit of a nightmare for us in recruitment terms. I need Multi IR Instructors in Spain but we can't find suitable candidates. Basic FI are ten a penny, especially restricted ones but getting people who meet he requirements to teach CPL, ME and IR as well as have real experience good enough to teach the subject is not easy.

Guys teaching the for the basic PPL can't get the IFR flight time needed without going and renting or being paid to fly under IFR so are just stuck in the hold.

I would have rubbed my hands in glee at one time as I get sim much multi, CPL IR training work but my day job like MJ is flying a turboprop and there is not enough of me to go around!!!

Despite my recruitment needs, I would advise anyone thinking of going into Instruction to think carefully about the reward and return against the investment. You are never going to get the money back and you are always going to be on the bread line unless you can get a position in the high levels of training which are hard to come by.

[mad_jock]

If you can say Bose what are the current pay rates for CPL ME IR instructors?

[S-Works]

If memory serves me right the pay is about €45 per hours for ME-IR Instruction. I would need to check the specifics as that's company stuff rather than Head of Training stuff.

[slr737]

I'm quite amazed at the price paid for ME-IR instructor.

For 45 euro not many people will go and teach for a such expensive rating!

Where I work in europe, the price for CPL, IR instruction is 60 euro and ME and ME IR is 80 euro...

The PPL are paid 40 €

[mad_jock]

45 euro an hour isn't that bad depending what is actually paid for.

If its 6 hours billable a day it works out for a 5 day week at just over 5000 euro. And you don't ever have to see the wrong side of 6 am again.

If you consider a whizz air 737 Captain is on 3500 euro's a month.

[Straighten Up]

Slr737

Which country do you work in if you don't mind saying? Seems the pay there is better than UK

[slr737]

Belgium.

However we have enough FI what is missing is FI for CPL and FI qualified as IRI and/or CRI

Think france is about the same range of price.

Mind you tax is high in Belgium but with a good accountant you can keep a big part of it.

[Scott C]

Mad Jock,

Where did you get €5000 from? - Not a criticism, just wondering if i've missed something.

If it was 6 hours pay per day, over 5 days it would equal €1350.

Which equates to €70,200 PA or €5850 per month (If it's monthly pay that is!).

[mad_jock]

Sorry that was a month. And you won`t be doing 6 hours every day.

The problem with being paid by the hour is wx, tech issues and lack of students.

So you can`t expect the amounts you have worked out. It also depends how they charge is it just logged sim or aircraft time or briefings as well. 4 hours "flying" could very well be 9 hours in the office. So that would drop your figure by alot

[RedBullGaveMeWings]

To be able to become a CRI on MEP which is required to be an instrument instructor on them I would have to build 30 hours PIC time on MEP which is over 10 grand. So for anyone wanting to go down your route its getting on for 20k in ratings and hour building for a commercial pilot with over 5000 hours commercial flying.

For a FI who has come to the conclusion that they will never fly airlines or it just doesn't interest them your talking 40k for building 110-150 (depends on how many hours you can claim with your IR training) hours in a IFR single, 30 hours in a twin (IFR and PIC), CRI MEP, IRI. If you don't already have a FI that's another 7k. You would be virtually unemployable if you just tried to go straight to IRI, CRI MEP without commercial experience just by hour building.
If I were a holder of the FAA CPL, IR and MEP, would I be allowed to hour build in FAA-land?

[mad_jock]

yes as long as its proper PIC ie you sign for the aircraft and not that FAA thing of two people logging it in an SPA aircraft unless you are the "proper" PIC signing for everything.

Its still not going to save you that much money. And unless you have over 1000 hours EASA PPL instruction under your belt and unrestricted nobody is going to touch you. I am sure but Bose will be able to give us a better opinion.

I looked at it and then decided I wasn't going to do the pay cut or pay for all the hour building or the ratings. I presume a Line training captain on a steam driven manual TP with previous PPL instruction under his belt would be of interest to a school but maybe not.

[S-Works]

As MJ so succinctly puts it, unless you have real experience just building a few hours to meet the minima are no use to me.

Greenhorn instructors are ten a penny. Experienced guys are hard to find and increasingly so.

[AJMortimer]

I looked at it and then decided I wasn't going to do the pay cut or pay for all the hour building or the ratings.I spent the majority of my flying time last year hours building for the multi-engine instructor rating. I've now completed the ME Instructor Rating course and achieved my examiner authorization for the PPL SE and IMC/IR(R) - just my ME examiner authorization to complete.

The problem is, as Mad Jock points out, I can't do the pay cut - although I have paid for all the hour building and ratings.

The gearing of the pay structure, certainly with the professional schools, seems to be aimed at the retired airline Captain with a pension behind him or the young pilot with no commitments.

Increasingly the young pilot will be unable to achieve the necessary ratings and the shortage will become more profound - certainly if there's a sudden upturn in the market.

In my opinion, until the level of pay and benefits rises to the equivalent of at least that of a main stream jet First Officer the shortage of candidates will continue - although that in itself will not magically provide candidates with the necessary experience.

The situation at the moment seems to be one where the student airline pilot is being paid far more than his instructors. Maybe not a valid comparison, but an indication of the standard of living that can be obtained.

If you stand back from the situation it appears only reasonable that airline pilots should be taught by airline pilots and not, with all due respect, by PPL instructors who have no knowledge or real experience of the airline environment. That is the way EASA seems to be going by placing increasing emphasis on the 'airline environment' and not the GA-based training route - the MPL license, for example, is a clear indication of this.

I would love to re-locate to Spain and teach there and that is my goal. At the present moment I can't afford to do so - just ensuring I have the 'tools' in place when the time comes!

[RedBullGaveMeWings]

Where can I find CAP814? I tried googling it and visiting EASA's website but didn't manage to find anything.

[Whopity]

Try CAP 804 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP%20804%20searchable.pdf) 4 versions in a year and still riddled with errors.

[RedBullGaveMeWings]

Thanks, will try to understand something out of it.

[Parson]

Bose-x,

Might be a bit idealistic of me, but shouldn't you be trying to turn your inexperienced instructors into the experienced ones you need?! I know EASA may have one (or both) of your hands tied behind your back but is it feasible to progress from within?

[S-Works]

We do try to develop Instructors internally. But there is a bit of a gulf between the level of experience we require to train CPLME and IR candidates and what we can turn out through internal training. The Instructors need the time on twins and IFR that just can't be achieved internally.

EASA may allow an Instructor to teach ME after just 30hrs. But that does not provide the experience we seek or the student deserves. You only have to look at the newly qualified ME Instructor that let a student wheels up a Seneca at the big school next door recently. That sort of event would be catastrophic for us.

The same goes for IR training, students doing intensive IR training needs an Instructor who knows there stuff inside and out. A basic IRI(A) on an Instructor who has not been flying real world IFR just does not cut it.

Its the irony of the industry using the most inexperienced to train the most inexperienced......

[Parson]

I understand your points and I do sympathise with your position. When I went through well known UK modular school (which had an excellent reputation) pretty much every CPL/IR instructor was an ex PPL instructor who had moved up the ladder. None had any line flying or multi-crew experience other than one who was an ex-FE. I must say that we all thought they were very good instructors and I never heard any complaints.

I guess at some point the training pipeline is going to grind to a halt.

[mad_jock]

Parson I to got taught by one of that breed.

But to be honest in those days they didn't just go straight into MEP/IR training.

They started out as Assistant FI's

Then as one of the requirements they had to have the applied instrument restriction removed which allowed them to teach IMC ratings then they did a test and became a full FI.

They could then after getting experience teach PPL and IMC do a bit of aircraft ferrying and do the MEP instructor course and teach MEP ratings. In those days there were a lot more MEP's about.

Then once they had enough experience doing that they could be fed in to teaching CPL.

After they were up to speed with that they could go on to IR single then IR MEP.

So by the time they started teaching MEP/IR they had loads of experience teaching instruments to IMC holders, they also had experience teaching MEP and just loads of experience teaching full stop. The MEP/IR was just a combination of skill sets which they already had.

The system these days just doesn't feed instructors through the relevant steps to build the experience. You are still expected to have the experience but there is no real way of getting it. And they have even managed to block people coming back to instructing. Realistically a pro pilot hasn't done VFR commercial level flying since they sat there own LST for there CPL. I will freely admit it would be an amusing flight if I had to do the test profile again without having some retraining. And that's being as current as you can get flying 6 sectors a day 5-6 days a week with pax in the back.

The IR training I think I would be OK at as its what I do as a line trainer but then again what we do in real life is different to what they want for the test.

[Parson]

MJ - thanks for that.

So what do you think is the way ahead for career instructors, if there is one?! If there isn't, something will have to give at some point surely?

[Okavango]

When you say a PPL FI would be lucky to recoup the cost of their training are you including all flight training (PPL, 100+ hours, ATPL's etc) or just the FI rating? At say £7000 for the FI rating and £20/hr that's 350hrs, after which it's cash positive. Admittedly not a great investment on face value but if you enjoy it and feel you've got something to offer then it seems reasonable to be cash neutral on the rating alone if working part time for 2-3 years.

Full time I'd agree there doesn't seem to be enough pay or future (due MEP/IR prerequisite experience roadblock) for anyone to consider it as a career. The issue really is the stepping stone of air taxi work etc to allow IR logged hours drying up though I do agree that people should have done the job in the real world before they start to teach it. I'd guess todays current MEP IR career instructors, having managed to build the necessary experience prior to the new rules, are in a sweet spot and good luck to them.

[mad_jock]

Parson I really don't have a clue.

The cynical Scotsman in me thinks its all part of a cunning plan to get all airline training through MPL.

The other side of me says its just clueless people making rules up with no thought about how it would work in real life.

The only way I can see to do it is to get 1000 plus PPL instructing get a twin MEP job surveying or the like then after a couple of years doing that while keeping your FI up get your CRI MEP and IRI. Then find somewhere that will let you do CPL and MEP and when you haven't bent anything for a year they will let you do IR 's as well.

I can't see most typical FI's being able to do the MEP IRI leap. You may get a few that will go to SEP CPL training but the next jump is almost impossible unless the school lets them do ferry trips etc to get the hours up for the CRI.

Unless you in the system or step out to a commercial job your pretty well stuffed.

[Whopity]

The other side of me says its just clueless people making rules up with no thought about how it would work in real life.
And by default the only training that will be left is LAPL and MPL!

[Okavango]

Looking at CAP804 it states prerequisites for a CRI as "300 hours flight time as a pilot on aeroplanes"

Does this mean you need 300hrs before you can instruct SEP?? That seems to differ from the pre-requisites of an FI(R). Excuse my ignorance but what's the difference between the CRI and FI priviledges?

[mad_jock]

That's to do the CRI rating you have to have 300 hours at the start of the course

To start the FI course you need 200 hours min.

The FI course is substantially longer and has vastly increased privileges.

[Duchess_Driver]

The fundamental difference between an FI and a CRI in EASAland is that a CRI can only teach someone who already has a licence (a ME class rating is a good example of stuff that can be done by a CRI).

He cannot take Joe Public off the street and train him/her for a licence.

An FI, when suitably experienced and appropriately qualified, can do everything that a CRI can, but it doesn't work the other way around.

HTH

DD

[Tay Cough]

So what do you think is the way ahead for career instructors, if there is one?! If there isn't, something will have to give at some point surely?

Unless the salary becomes commensurate with the training costs required, something will most definitely give. The way of the world unfortunately.

I'm an airline pilot and FI. In many ways, I would keen to become a full-time FI and do the appropriates to become a commercial ME/IRI. However, even with my current experience that would not be a cheap exercise and the salary and benefits would have to be up there with my current package to make it worth my while. Think pushing six figures plus pension/benefits :eek:, which isn't going to happen in my lifetime and is unworkable anyhow as it would increase student costs prohibitively.

Not a good situation for anyone.

[portsharbourflyer]

Some interesting comments.

MJ, although I agree the requirements for getting the a FI(R) to a FI(A) are quite meaningless under JAA / EASA, for someone to get the no applied instrument removed still requires additional training and a test.

So in that element it means and an JAA / EASA FI(A) with the restriction lifted and a CAA QFI would both still have done an additional test since the initial AFI / FI(R) test.

Further very few schools would take some one would the no applied instruments restriction just recently lifted on as an IR instructor so most would still only recruit those with a reasonable number of hours teaching IMC.

So in that sense there is still little difference between the FI(A) coming from modular JAA route and the old CAA QFI. So to suggest any one is going straight into MEP / IR instructing doesn't hold any water.

I am also know that a certain modular school on the South Coast with an excellent reputation and well known for its standards has employed plenty of MEI instructors with only the minimum of multi hours, yet strangely does not seem to have compromised its standards (I have personally known four of these instructors). While having real world experience may certainly add value to an MEI/IRI instructors ability to teach, I really don't see that a school that is largely gearing its students to go straight to multi crew EFIS really has much call to make large amounts of air taxi experience as a pre-requisite for its instructors. Also just because someone has a lot of experience doesn't mean they can teach it.

The twist to this is when there were air taxi jobs going you would rarely get looked at unless you had 100 to 200 hours of multi time, the only way to get that was working as a multi engine instructor.

[mad_jock]

I wasn't actually commenting on the requirements if they were suitable or not. Apart from the PIC time in MEP.

Just the fact that currently they really don't fit with either group of FI's. The ones that have moved to airlines or the ones instructing as a day job.

Nobody of my peer group bothered getting the applied instrument because it just wasn't worth the money for the amount of training you would get off it.

The old days people were forced into doing it to get the restriction removed.

As for the hard IFR hours in the poo. Yes real life experience will add to the capacity of the instructor. But then again real life adds to habits which may not be acceptable for tests.

[AJMortimer]

EASA may allow an Instructor to teach ME after just 30hrs

and

unless you have real experience just building a few hours to meet the minima are no use to me

Yes, I agree entirely - minimum requirements in the relatively complex instructing world of the Multi-Engine/IR demand more than a 'tick in the box'.

Experienced guys are hard to find and increasingly so

That is the point - most experienced pilots might have many hundreds or thousands of hours on complex aircraft types gained from an airline or commercial flying background, but minimum hours on light twins. In these cases the ME Instructor Rating is more a requirement than an achievement.

Hopefully their airline and/or training/instructing experience would stand them in good stead should they wish to transfer to the commercial training environment.

The trouble is not many want to extend their careers once their airline flying days are over - and the terms and conditions of employment with the commercial schools seem to be based on 'retired' pilots working for a salary that works hand in glove with their pensions rather than as a stand alone income that reflects the level of knowledge and experience required to deliver effective training.

Whether or not you agree with the argument that airline pilots need to be trained by airline pilots (as opposed to instructors bred in a flying school environment), that fact is the regulators appear to be moving towards that way of thinking and, as Bose-X states above, 'A basic IRI(A) on an Instructor who has not been flying real world IFR just does not cut it'.

The shortage will continue and will potentially become critical as and when the market picks up.

[markkal]

And with a newly acquired aerobatic rating ( 5 hours total) + a handful of extra hours (FCL.800) an FI will be able to teach :uhoh:
The same goes with mountain flying

It takes decades of experience in these niche activities to reach proficiency, the right guys for this are very often not ATPL or CPL holders nor FI's...

And the CRI ???
anyone with 300hrs TT SEP and a a valid rating ( 5hrs training !!) + a couple of extra hours, including some ground courses, without the FI can apply, and we may have some very qualified people together with a whole bunch of hopeless chaps who will have acquired their credentials not because of their skills but due to their connections and some connivent FI(E).

[FlyingTruckdriver]

I resume this thread just to know where I can find the paper that states i need only 200 hrs ifr to become an IRI. I knew there was a minimum of 800 ifr hrs. What is the correct one ?
Thanks all.

[172510]

Everything is in the Aircrew regulation
To teach for IR your experience must be
- 200 hours IFR if you are an FI
- 800 hours IFR if you're not.

[FlyingTruckdriver]

Thanks.
I haven't found anything regarding this matter but old JAR FCL 1.
Are you talking about UK stuff when you mention aircrew regs ?
Does easa has anything about regulation on its website ?
I am italian so I did not serarch UK CAA. For sure they have better info, but I thought easa had something.
I fly GA in Italy and I have more than 2000 hrs FAA FI IRI MEP (flown in the past in the US) and I'd like to get the same FI ratings here and see if I find the way to instruct a little bit in Italy too.

[BEagle]

FlyingTruckdriver, start here: https://www.easa.europa.eu/flightstandards/aircrew.html

Then follow the various links.....:\

[FlyingTruckdriver]

I've finally found something about EASA part fcl on the website.
FCL.915.IRI IRI — Prerequisites
An applicant for an IRI certificate shall:
(a) for an IRI(A):
(1) have completed at least 800 hours of flight time under IFR, of which at least 400 hours shall be in aeroplanes;
and
(2) in the case of applicants of an IRI(A) for multi-engine aeroplanes, meet the requirements of paragraph
FCL.915.CRI(a).......
Nowhere talks about 200hrs if you already a FI.

[BillieBob]

Nobody said you needed only 200 hrs to become an IRI. The 200 hours requirement is to extend the privileges of an FI certificate to allow instruction for the IR, which is not the same thing.

FCL.905.FI - Privileges and Conditions

The privileges of an FI are to conduct flight instruction for the issue, revalidation or renewal of:
....
(g) An IR in the appropriate aircraft category, provided that the FI has:

(1) at least 200 hours of flight time under IFR, of which up to 50 hours may be instrument ground time in an FFS, an FTD 2/3 or FNPT II;

(2) completed as a student pilot the IRI training course and has passed an assessment of competence for the IRI certificate.

[FlyingTruckdriver]

Got it, thanks !