UK NPAS discussion thread: Mk 4

[SilsoeSid]

backtothebeat, These vacancies are for civilian posts not police officers. Thus the low pay.

Please read the whole post. The part you quoted was questioning the sentence.

"2. The suggested starting pay for those selected is higher than one of the current TFO Training Officers with over 16 Years in the job - go figure."


As the starting salary for the post is £24,036 - £25,704; and a Constable after initial training is on £26,484, how can we 'go figure'?

Thus my riposte.

[SilsoeSid]

Sorry Harry, nice video, but surely this is the only guide to Marshall-ing allowed on this thread;

College of Policing: Alex Marshall (http://www.college.police.uk/en/16951.htm)

[Gerry Atric]

Just joined PPRuNe … I have just 'failed' THE interview … awaiting feedback! I'm told that there were about 20 got through to that stage.

The pay question may be answered by the fact that PCs don't get shift allowance, whereas Support Staff do. It could add 7%, 14%, or 20% onto the quoted salary depending on the number and extent of unsocial hours worked. so it is possible (though not a given) that a civvie TFO could be on more than some PCs … but not likely unless they work at a base offering 24 hr coverage.

[SilsoeSid]

Police helicopter called to Hertford, only to find they have the wrong man | Hertfordshire Mercury (http://www.hertfordshiremercury.co.uk/Police-helicopter-called-Hertford-wrong-man/story-24204445-detail/story.html)

Police helicopter called to Hertford, only to find they have the wrong man
By Vicky_Knill | Posted: November 05, 2014

A police helicopter was scrambled to help officers catch a man they believed to be a suspect in an assault case, only to find it was not him.

The Metropolitan Police Helicopter was called at 2.55pm today and flew to the Hertford area to assist police officers in keeping visual contact with the supposed GBH suspect.

However, when police caught up with the man and spoke to him, they discovered he was not who they thought he was.

The whole incident lasted a little over an hour and the helicopter was stood down at 4.05pm.

………………...:oh:


A special request for the Met ASU from The PNAS Country Singers - 'Come and Join Us'

'Come and join us, come and join us, we are the chosen few,
Come and join us, come and join us, with out you we remain few...'

[catchems]

Gerry
You say 20 got to interview...do you know if any passed????

[Gerry Atric]

Catchems,

I've no firm details about pass/fails. I BELIEVE that 2 vacancies MAY have been selected for, and that at least 2 others in addition to myself have 'not been successful on this occasion'. So how the final figures stack up … no idea. They are bound to face logistical problems if the vacancies aren't where the candidates live … that's something that they are going to have to figure out for any future recruitment.

[SilsoeSid]

20 got to interview!
That means a minimum of 20 candidates doing 2 flight tests each. As an absolute minimum that's £nn,000 just for that stage of the process. Seems a lot of people to flight test for their aptitude in an aviation environment, when surely somewhere like Cranwell would not only be cheaper, but can apply a tried and tested selection process adapted for TFO selection.

How many 'got through to' the flight test stage, but didn't 'get to' interview?

Is it true that there was a 'motion sickness test' part of the flight testing? If so, what on earth would that consist of?

[SilsoeSid]

Seen here https://mobile.twitter.com/BTPmanchester

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/e96c7cd97e1cd6555ee316b472f299da_zpsd1904765.jpg

Anyone know the details of the agreement; and now with changes afoot, is an earlier plan with BTP playing a major role more than in the pipeline?

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/2d611f06b5ca353072d6928030bd6de6_zpsa396b054.jpg
http://www.btp.police.uk/pdf/The_Line_January_web.pdf

[catchems]

gerry,

ive heard that there will be more vacancies when the 3 fixed wings come into service...Not sure of your location but ive heard the 24 hr bases will have them and a helicopter...

[SilsoeSid]

catchems;
ive heard that there will be more vacancies when the 3 fixed wings come into service...Not sure of your location but ive heard the 24 hr bases will have them and a helicopter...
Welcome back catchems, however may I suggest that you and your 'source' make your posts a bit more feasible.


From second quarter 2015, initial 18 month 'trial' fixed wing locations; Exeter, Cambridge & Teeside :ok:

The supply & demand … (or should that be demand & supply :E ) ... of the initial order of 3 will be closely examined over this period. If a further order of 3 additional fixed wing is made, the feasibility of basing them at Manchester, Birmingham & Redhill will be assessed.

[Nail The Dream]

The pay question may be answered by the fact that PCs don't get shift allowance

... apart from the extra 10% between the Unsocial hours of 8pm and 6am :rolleyes:

Nail

[MightyGem]

Is it true that there was a 'motion sickness test' part of the flight testing? If so, what on earth would that consist of?
A few tight turns and mild wingovers was normally enough for us.

[SilsoeSid]

Ref my last; scratch Cambridge, insert Elstree :suspect:

[Gerry Atric]

SiloeSid,

The flight test (only one, not two) was a fairly basic plan a few legs/brief/fly a leg/divert to a notional task/vehicle follow type of thing…. and a couple of little extras. You might view it as a fairly limited line check. I did wonder how someone would fare who had NEVER done that sort of thing before. It certainly would have massively favoured any ex-TFOs, and none should have failed it.

The motion sickness aspect … maybe the part where I was given a number of intensive head-in paperwork tasks to sort out, but I don't recall the aircraft being thrown around whilst I was doing them.

Certainly, when the boot was on the other foot, thats what we did (in fixed wing) … got someone to bury their head in a map book whilst carrying out a number of steep turns and changes of direction. Maybe not scientific, but seemed to work. It might seem a statement of the obvious, but fixed-wing motion is different to rotary. I never felt unwell in rotary, but there were some occasions over the years on f/w where I came close to losing my lunch (and many did). Everyone has their limits … mine were as good as or better than many, but not upto the best. I've done aerobatics and my limit was about about 10 mins … except for barrel rolls, which I instantly disliked (albeit that it is a positive G manoeuvre).

I had a colleague who, at the start of his career in Naval Aviation, did his training in fixed wing, and thought that it would be over before it had begun. The moment he moved onto rotary … no problem. And I've flown with a pilot who used to fight turbulence, rather than just let the aircraft 'go with the flow'. We ended up doing Dutch Rolls, and most observers felt sick.

Cranwell … hmmm! I was a guinea pig for that in the 90's - I did quite well … but I've known candidates pass it, and turn out to be hopeless in the air … and a female officer who, by her admission, did very badly at it … but went on to be an excellent observer. And I thought Mersyside or someone ditched it because of potential gender bias (or threat of being biased).

When I had to devise a flight test, it was structured to begin simply and, over 45 mins or so, to become more complex. Top marks were awarded for getting everything right, but it was also designed to credit those who made errors but managed to calmly and quickly recognise and correct any mistakes … because we have all been 'lost' or 90 degrees out in our map/ground orientation. And all of the candidates were given a pre-read … a summary of map-reading, topography, line and point features, etc, which they then had to demonstrate their understanding of on the day, before being thrown into planning their flight.

[MightyGem]

Here's a follow up to my post #364 regarding costs/savings taking the Capital Contributions into account.

I asked each Force about their Capital Contributions to NPAS. The majority claimed that they had no record of any such contributions, so none were paid!

Upon further interrogation, and the evidence of the NPAS Report they confirmed that the contributions were deducted from their annual Home Office grant. So, although they say they are not paying any Capital Contribution, they are as it’s deducted from the Grant.

The others who answered knew that the Contributions were deducted from their Grant, but said they did not know how much they were paying each year, so I let them know how much NPAS said they were paying. :E

So, if we compare NPAS’s figures for Contributions with what the Forces told me they paid prior to NPAS, they paid a total of £36,087,787 and £33,768,351(including the Capital Contributions) for the year 2013/14.

That reduces the savings down to £2,319,351, and you have Cumbria who were paying £15,870 are now paying £98,889; Lincs who were paying £30,000, now £97,719; GMP £1,742,718/£2,253,080 to name a few. I bet they are really chuffed. As, I suppose, are the 7 Forces who are paying Capital Contributions but aren’t even members of NPAS yet. :*

[MightyGem]

Are the pilots being retrained to fly planks
Unlikely I would have thought due to the cost.

[Fly_For_Fun]

Are the pilots being retrained to fly planks, or are they being moved to other pastures for 18 months?
I would imagine finding pilots with dual licences hard to find?

A couple of points on this (IMHO):

1 They dont seem to be able to keep or recruit pilots at the moment due to T and Cs let alone dual license holders

2 I doubt if they could aford to keep pilots dual rated

3 They do not have the infrastructure to run a fixed wing and rotary CAT operation

[SilsoeSid]

Are the pilots being retrained to fly planks ...


Imho, one of the most ridiculous questions ever asked on PPRuNe.

[jayteeto]

Some police pilots have NEVER flown fixed wing other than for selection procedures in the Army.
I have commercial aeroplane and helicopter licences, both with Instrument Ratings. Make me a good offer and I will consider coming back to police aviation. :ok:
A few years ago I offered that very thing to GMP, the interview was nothing about aviation, all about politically correct stuff/conflict resolution etc etc. I didn't really enter into the spirit of that and came across quite poorly. Lucky for me with the way fixed wing went.....
Hopefully the interviews are a little better these days.

[Gerry Atric]

I may not be a pilot … but my thousands of hours working alongside many have given me a good insight into those that have the aptitude … and those that don't. I've seen prospective ones with thousands of hours in their logbooks, but spent in commercial transport, who were just not comfortable manoeuvring at low level, orbiting scenes at night, sometimes in difficult conditions, at a couple of thousand feet with no visual cues. Or being thrown, unplanned, at a moments notice into Class A airspace as a job took an unexpected turn (literally)

Likewise, I've flown with those to whom 'seat of the pants' was second nature … to whom the aircraft seemed to be an extension of themselves. They kept me safe, alive, got the job done, and I had a lot of respect for them.

So the point is that it not just cost that would inhibit converting rotary to f/w … a pilot might be superb on rotary, but just not as comfortable and competent in f/w.

And the idea that interview alone has been the basis for pilot selection … if that was your experience, JayTeeTo … it's worrying

[Sloppy Link]

The thought of flying a plank is terrifying.......far safer to stop THEN land opposed to the other way round.

[MightyGem]

And then there's worrying about stalling and spinning into Mrs Miggins's back garden when trying keep a scally in view. :eek:

[SilsoeSid]

Silsoe, the question was banter.;):confused:


"When the new planks arrive in 2015 what happens to the crews at the nominated units in earlier posts?
Do the TFO's get to fly both types, or is one put to bed or shipped out?
Are the pilots being retrained to fly planks, or are they being moved to other pastures for 18 months?
I would imagine finding pilots with dual licences hard to find?"


a. fair question
b. another two fair questions
c. clearly a ridiculous question neither playful nor original and clearly not intelligent; followed by another fair question
d. a fair statement

banter:
Supple term used to describe activities or chat that is playful, intelligent and original. Banter is something you either posses or lack, there is no middle ground. It is also something inherently English, stemming as it does from traditional hi-jinks and tomfoolery of British yesteryear.

Sorry, the advice given in the banter section of my Hong Kong Book of Kung Fu, detects no banter there!

http://media.monstersandcritics.com/articles/1190564/article_images/honkkongphooeyandspotinthephooeymobile.jpg



Besides this tomfoolery, what would be/have been the fixed wing jocks qualifying requirements?

[Thomas coupling]

For the same reason someone said the "pilot" interview became one of current affairs and politically correct decision making - so to, the time has come to apply similar perspectives to the vehicles used. 6 new FW on the horizon - presumably to eventually replace between 4 and 6 RW.
New pilots recruited almost certainly - I can't see the cops paying for FW conversions can you? I wonder how compulsory retirement will go down?
I heard from a colleague of mine last week that NPAS is becoming even more of a political football now that PCC's are getting involved and slowly but surely the whole process is re-morphing into yet another governmental morass.
Good luck to you all.

Gery Atric - I don't think you actually understand what aptitude is all about, methinks. I know where you are coming from and that you mean well, but you are wide of the mark..

[SilsoeSid]

One thing that needs to be remembered in all this, especially up in West Yorks, is the last paragraph of the report;

NPAS in itself has no legal identity. West Yorkshire
Police employs the staff and the Officer of the Police
and Crime Commissioner for West Yorkshire own the
assets. NPAS is an operational department within West
Yorkshire Police and the content of this annual report
should be read in this context.


In addition to that statement, what best way to totally wash ones hands than to get all the PCCc & CC's together and ask them what they would like from a National Police Aviation Service.
If that were to be asked, I wonder the reaction if the overwhelming reply was ….. what we had before!

Maybe the strong arm of the Home Office would be called in again, which surprises me they haven't in the situation we have with the Met!

[Fortyodd2]

JT2
"Hopefully the interviews are a little better these days."


Nope. :ugh:

MightyGem.
"And then there's worrying about stalling and spinning into Mrs Miggins's back garden when trying keep a scally in view."

Unlikely that those asking questions on the interview panel have any idea of what stalling or spinning, in an aviation context, actually is.

[Gerry Atric]

The concern about 'stalling and spinning in' is obviously a valid one … which is where my comment about piloting 'aptitude' came in. Evidently, I (or more correctly, the men in the driving seat) managed to avoid doing it over many years and hours, otherwise I would not be here to write this.

Not wishing to start a war therefore,Thomas coupling, I'm always willing to listen and learn. You presumably interpret 'aptitude' in a way that is different to me, or are seeing it from a different perspective.

I'm taking the common-sense dictionary of 'having a natural ability'. I agree than it can be argued that, in order for anyone to perform some specialised or skilled task, they need some degree of innate ability. But it comes in different orders of magnitude. And I have flown with some pilots (who were under assessment or training) who could demonstrate all of the skills that you would expect of someone who has been granted a CPL/ATPL … but they just weren't comfortable (or assessed as being confident or safe) doing all those piloty things whilst waffling around at low speeds at 1500 feet (and sometimes less). Some had earned their hours sat at FL Nosebleed crossing the Atlantic, etc.


Requirements for F/W pilots? We specified Minimum CPL/IR, 1000 hrs total, 500 hrs multi-engine, 100hrs turbine (not relevant here) … but preferred ATPL with 1500 hrs, 500 hr turbine, and 200 hrs night multi, with similar role flying experience … plus of course interview and flight test in a similar regime to what they were being recruited for.

[Gerry Atric]

Sloppy Link … yup … thats the subtle difference between the two airframes.

Rotary .."Upward and onward"
Plank … "Onward, then upward"

[MightyGem]

I heard from a colleague of mine last week that NPAS is becoming even more of a political football
You mean you don't know? I thought you were now an NPAS suit?

The concern about 'stalling and spinning in' is obviously a valid one
That was not meant as a serious comment. :D

[Thomas coupling]

Gerry: Forgive me - I don't know anything about you, but can surmise that you are probably a cop and do not have any aviation (flying) background. What you have gleaned about aptitude is purely whilst on the job -yes?
Your coments are littered with inappropriate words, such as:
No visual cues???
natural ability.
flown with some pilots under assessment?
Assessed as NOt being competent or safe?

I know what the requirements are for a police pilot, I was one for 14 years. I was also an Instructor and have flown both types (FW and RW) in my 30+ years of committing aviation.
I'm not entirely sure this is a wind up (because of the lack of responses from current serving pilots) so apologies if I fall prey to someone's inate sense of humour.

1. natural ability in pilots in inordinately rare. In my lifetime I have come across a hand full of 'natural pilots'.
2. How have you been flying with: pilots under assessment / incompetent pilots / unsafe pilots during your time as an TFO?

ALL pilots who are qualified to fly helicopters (that includes FW pilots too) are easily capable of "waffling around at 1500'". ALL of them are capable of doing the job provided they have met the basic entry criteria. Don't even think otherwise.
You may have personally experienced some differences between one FW pilot and another, or one RW and another - but they are slight and innocuous.
You wouldn't be able to spot major flaws in their flying capabilities during police ops (in general) because the job of flying police helicopters at 'most' air bases is not in the least - demanding. It is simply taxi driving the cops to and from the job in hand. Some sites have very onerous tasking (mainly those stuck out in the hills) and they do work the spectrum of helo flying more expansively - and are appropriately better experienced at it.
But most police flying ESPECIALLY FW police work is monotonous and undemanding.
If you've had a bad experience with police pilots in the past - I would suggest it's more to do with the amount of moaning they have done rather than the amount of skill they display carrying out a mundane job.
Stick to cop stuff.
MightyGem: Since when? I have absolutely nothing to do with NPAS these days......you have me mixed up with......

[Gerry Atric]

Thomas coupling …
Thank you for your reply. I couldn't expect you to know my background in detail. To save cluttering up this forum with information that I'm sure sure that most people don't want to read, I'll PM you with the story of my aviation life. In summary, I spent 18 years on fixed wing, doing a wide range of tasks that included most of what rotary do, and quite a few that they don't or can't. As observers we we expected to carry out tasks that might be considered those of a Pilots Assistant … all checklists, maybe changing radio frequencies, dealing with Approach Plates, keeping PLOGS. We were expected to be capable of working out weight and balance drop load sheets if necessary (until we devised standard loads). We did daily elements of the Check 'A's under the pilots supervision. All listed in our POAM Pt2 and obviously under the auspices of the pilot.

Yes, I have flown with some gifted pilots, some of questionable competency (peer and senior pilot opinions, not purely my own), and one who did something so unsafe that he was invited to leave (or be pushed/prosecuted). We were regular passengers on training flights (now considered unacceptable) to the extent of being on board during full engine shut-downs, stalls,etc. The reasoning being to monitor and shut down role equipment during engine restarts (there was no role equipment or Auxilliary Busbar … an 'oversight' during construction of the aircraft!!!!).

As for 'no visual cues' … I mean exactly that (part from instruments). I have been tasked to rural areas where there has been absolutely NOTHING visible except on the TI camera (which was not viewable by the pilot).

I only spent two years on rotary (my last two)… glad that I did … a wholly different world, and I probably wouldn't recognise the nuances of differing capability in a rotary pilot (they all impressed me with their thoroughness and professionalism). But I'll quote you (in my PM) some f/w stories that you might agree would give anyone pause for thought. And I can't think of any (one, maybe, had some rotary experience) who were dual rated … they were all f/w only.

Looking back, I was extremely fortunate to have had the opportunities and experiences that I had, and to be part of a unit where there was no 'them and us' (pilots and police).

Did I ever imagine that it would be my main career when I joined as a PC in 1972? Never! Miss it? Yes, I do!

[MightyGem]

MightyGem: Since when? I have absolutely nothing to do with NPAS these days......you have me mixed up with......
Bugger! You're right...I do have you mixed up with someone else. :O

[Rigga]

Jayteeto said:
"the interview was nothing about aviation, all about politically correct stuff/conflict resolution etc etc. I didn't really enter into the spirit of that and came across quite poorly."

My interview (not for operational tasks) with the Met ASU was in the same vein. However, I met the HR lady arranging it all just minutes prior to the meeting and she said - "Don't worry, your the only applicant...Do you know what Diversity means?" I went on about Cattle farmers changing to holiday home management and she kindly corrected me...I got the job within 30 minutes.

[jayteeto]

I'll give you a clue,

Q. Tell me when you have worked in a team?
JT2. All my working life, Oh, I'm working in a team now, doing this job for the last 7 years.
Q. Yes, but other than that, when have you worked in a team?
JT2. I'm applying to be a police helicopter pilot here, I am doing the job now, very well so I'm told. I have 3 Chief Constables Commendations. Why are you asking me this when I can show evidence of doing the job well??
Q. Its a standard question list for all of the candidates.
JT2. Ok, I think I have suitably answered that question.
Q. Oh all right, we will move on. Tell me when you have recently had to resolve a conflict at work.
JT2. How recently do you mean?
Q. In the last 5 years.
JT2. I can honestly state that I have never had to resolve any sort of conflict at work in the last 5 years. I work in a constituted crew and we get on like a house on fire.
Q. There must be something that has needed resolution?
JT2. No.
Q. Are you telling me that you have had no problems in the last 5 years that you can discuss here?
JT2. Oooh!! I see, you want me to make one up?
Q. No, no we don't!
JT2. Look, I want this job, I can do it well, I will get on just fine with your crews. The reason I am applying is that I have been told it may be possible to fly the helicopter AND the Islander. This really motivates me a lot. I was told that I was coming here for an informal chat, not a full structured interview. I think its pretty obvious that I am not answering your questions well, anything else.
Q. No, thanks for coming, we will let you know.

I left, phoned the pilot providing company and told them that I had failed the interview, thanks for the opportunity.

[Nail The Dream]

Sounds like you got into a conflict with the Interviewer :uhoh:

Nail

[Gerry Atric]

Remember the comedy duo of John Bird and John Fortune, and their spoof interviews? Or some of the Two Ronnies sketches.

jayteeto …. your recount of the interview …. priceless!!! :)

Had you ever thought of giving up flying for a career in comedy? Script-writing! I think that you've missed your calling!

[Gerry Atric]

Yes … nice hangar.

Anyone wish to challenge the mantra, "NPAS provides a national, borderless service making use of the nearest aircraft, enhancing the police service's response. The underlying principle of NPAS is a national service, regionally coordinated for local delivery. NPAS provides an air service to 98% of the population of England and Wales within 20 minutes. Twenty-five NPAS aircraft reside at 23 strategic locations, ready for action 24 hours a day"

[Pofman]

We had just as nice a hangar at Lippetts Hill in 1981 but we also had a control room which could do local and operational control. Our floor was just as clean but today's paint may be improved. Is the wheel being re- invented?:rolleyes:

[500e]

About every 8 years in a lot of industry

[SilsoeSid]

Gerry, that statement holds true ..... well, apart from anything in it that is quantifiable.

[MightyGem]

JT2. I can honestly state that I have never had to resolve any sort of conflict at work in the last 5 years. I work in a constituted crew and we get on like a house on fire.
Q. There must be something that has needed resolution?
JT2. No.
Q. Are you telling me that you have had no problems in the last 5 years that you can discuss here?
JT2. Oooh!! I see, you want me to make one up?
Q. No, no we don't!
Made up one for my Cheshire interview. Knew they wanted an example, so used something and just elaborated it a bit to include a "resolution". :hmm:

Just goes to show how interviews can be misleading for seeing if someone is suitable for a job. I mean, the Police have this Structured Interview system, and then give the bobbies courses on how to pass them. :ugh:

[Filtre de fadaises]

Just goes to show how interviews can be misleading for seeing if someone is suitable for a job. I mean, the Police have this Structured Interview system, and then give the bobbies courses on how to pass them. . . . but chatted to a PNAS pilot friend a little while ago & understand there was no instruction/course/guidance on the interview process whatsoever, just a list of competencies that he was given, but no understanding of what was required. Since he knew 2/3rds of the interviewers knew he knew what he knew, and that he had the competencies or wouldn't have been going to interview, he was as frustrated as JT2.

Speaking to him a month or so ago, I got the sad impression the current service is not what it was :ugh:

[Sloppy Link]

Sadly Cabby, I think you are going to be inundated with nay sayers. This is not because there is nothing good about NPAS, it is because this thread is only populated by those who have nothing good to say. Sick and tired of it really.

[Gerry Atric]

Cabby,

Ok - it might seem like people are 'naysayers' of which I might seem to be one… but here's my perpective on NPAS.

It is a logical sensible idea. It isn't new … it was first described in a major report in 1992. What was envisaged was a national borderless mixed fleet run, and providing services, rather like Bond or Bristows. It was intended to delivery effectiveness and efficiency by having an appropriate number of aircraft and bases, but at the same time save money by economies of scale (fuel, equipment, central purchasing, training). All of the benefits that we know ought to accrue from such a set-up.

You might say that I'm stating the obvious or being patronising. But I just want to emphasise that NPAS hasn't been set up like that. To be fair, it hasn't has the chance. It has been implemented in response to economic pressure. It has been said by others (who have greater experience than me) that if NPAS had not been formed, there might be no police aviation at all (maybe some in London and the large metropolitan areas). Each police force would have been forced to axe its own very expensive standalone unit. My own local force is selling off police stations, axing jobs, and still has to meet further spending cuts of £Millions. It's the same story elsewhere. And in the NHS and MOD!

The things that hurt/anger those that are in it, or come into contact with it are, in my view , twofold.

Firstly, this incessant 'feel-good' message … that it's as good as, if not better than, what it has replaced … the lack of honesty … the 'Emperor's New Clothes' outlook. The real message should be, "Look, it's not as good as it was, or should be, … but the choice is, what we have … or nothing at all".

Perhaps I am being naive here. Maybe that such directness cannot work when dealing with political decision makers. I've had a Chief Constable say to me that if air support became too difficult, then they've managed without before, so they could do so again. And the 'Salami' principle may apply … keep cutting slices off and someone may decide that whats left isn't worth keeping. Perhaps that's why they keep their up-beat message going.

Secondly, its the feeling that those running it don't know what they're doing. It's unfair to level that charge across the board, but the police have a long tradition of 'having a go at a job' rather than listening to expertise. I know of more than one person, with great experience and knowledge, who has been excluded from involvement in various ventures leading unto NPAS because they weren't 'on-message' … that their qualified opinions did not accord with what people wanted to hear.

With regard to those management roles fulfilled by police officers .. as a new police officer, you are taught a set of rules, and sent out into the world to deal with whatever comes your way. You are expected to become a problem solver of the unexpected … and you do. You develop a 'gissa job - I can do that' outlook. You have to. You can't ever walk away from a situation because it is overwhelming or you don't know what to do. You just do something (your best) and hope that it works, which it does mostly.

I believe that this 'can do' approach can become detrimental if it percolates up the rank structure as it can. It means that people are given tasks that they have insufficient knowledge to deal with, and the culture is to just get on and do your best. I know of one former colleague who was put in charge of an important technical project and asked to make an immediate major decision. When he pointed out that he had only just arrived in post, he was told, "You're in charge now. Make the decision'. He made the right one … but that's hindsight.

And that is why people are dissatisfied and complain abut NPAS. I talk to others still involved in it … they never complain about working conditions, pay, hours. Its not being able to offer a standard of service that they want to give and being patronised by decision-makers who they consider to be less knowledgeable and capable as they claim to be.

So … NPAS? Great idea … the future … I hope that it survives to work! But only when it is can be resourced in the way that was originally intended. That means a proper mixed fleet of about twice as many airframes, spread across about half as many again bases as they have now. As it stands, it is saving money … but it can't do what it says on the tin!

What might it turn into. Again, an opinion of a friend of great experience. If it doesn't pick up, or becomes a victim itself of further austerity … it may well be snapped up by people like Bond, etc and become a fully outsourced facility. The wheel will have come full circle … as envisaged in 1992!

Just my two penn'orth. Does that offer you any insight or encouragement?

[jayteeto]

Gerry is correct. The complaints come from us when people say it is now an improved service. It isn't, it is cheaper........ sort of, but isn't anywhere near as good. Read back to comments from years ago, call a spade a spade and let's move on. Just stop lying.

[MightyGem]

I got the sad impression the current service is not what it was
Understatement of the year, I think.

[airpolice]

Dave, all the good guys have retired so what chance has the system got?

[Thomas coupling]

Let's look at one simple fact - if one wants to be upbeat about it:

Without the formation of NPAS - the UK's police air support units would have been picked off, one by one by their respective C. C's so as to make ends meet. The whole process of selling off the family jewellery would have accelerated with the advent of PCC's trying to make a name for themselves.
NPAS has at the very least salvaged and secured approximately 90% of these air support units - atleast for the foreseeable future.

There is no disputing this - I would suggest. Basing future arguments on this premise - weakens many a negative perspective.

[Coconutty]

This is not because there is nothing good about NPAS, it is because this thread is only populated by those who have nothing good to say.Disagree here - If there was anything good to say, there are plenty of people here that would say so, and I count myself amongst them.

The reality is, that nothing ( or at least very little ) good is being said,
simply because there is nothing ( or very little ) good to say :bored:

Here's an upbeat prediction to think about ....

In however many years it takes for this Country to get back on its feet,
and Budgetary constraints are no longer such a problem, there will be a
Chief Constable somewhere that will realise they could receive a far
more efficient and cost effective Air Support service if they purchased
their own aircraft and managed it themselves :rolleyes:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[SilsoeSid]

Without the formation of NPAS - the UK's police air support units would have been picked off, one by one by their respective C. C's so as to make ends meet.

Isn't that exactly what PNAS themselves are doing ?

[Gerry Atric]

I honestly believe that NPAS can work if it can be resourced and structured as suggested in The 1992 report (with any suitable adjustments to account for the passage of time and changes in technology, etc). And I do have sympathy for their situation … stuck between the rock of promises and expectations, and the hard place of economic reality and austerity. It's the attitude that sticks in most people's throats. NHS are the same … less ambulances, hospitals, out-of-hours cover … all delivered with the patronising line that it is better, or more efficient.

I'm sure that there wouldn't be talk of further base closures, and cheaper aircraft, if they weren't being forced into further cost-cutting (ignoring that they seem to have got their sums wrong initially). I mean … I like fixed-wing … and unless you have worked one, you cannot be expected to know how it can do most of the tasks that rotary can do … just different techniques. But I also know that simply replacing a rotary with a f/w because it is cheaper and the base has a runway will not give the same standard of service unless certain other elements are in place.

Obviously … a runway! And ideally a choice, to avoid crosswind limitations. Unless you have control of, and priority use of, the airfield (or more importantly, that runway), you immediately face a response time problem. If you have to operate in Controlled Airspace … it can be quite viable … until you start running in to Class A. Icing conditions may not inhibit f/w … but low cloud and reduced viz obviously favour rotary. And no … I really wouldn't like to be conducting a search in narrow valleys in Wales and the Peaks in a f/w with low cloud full of cumulo granite.

Thomas Coupling has it … it's better than it could have been. It remains to be seen if it can preserve what has been saved to the point where it can be brought up to what it promises, and we expect.

Coconutty … funnily enough, that prospect (of forces going back to doing their own thing) has been suggested. Providing that they can get round the Section 22 requirement for forces to subscribe to a central source of air support … doesn't mean that they cannot pay a minimal amount (the letter of the law) but look elsewhere. And there's nothing that says that you can't use a single engine aircraft for police work … just that you cannot use it under certain conditions and avail yourself of the PAOM easements. Could use single engine rotary or f/w for some tasks. We had a former ACC who said that if photographic tasks became an excessive proportion of our work, he would consider just hiring in something like a Cessna 172 to do them. Didn't come to that, but the thinking was there … and that ACC was very supportive of air support.

Cabby … the Scottish situation … most of their 5 and a bit million population are in the southern areas. Guess that there are large parts of Scotland where they don't get 98% of the population with a 20 minute response … more like 20% with a 98 minute response!

[PANews]

There is a BBC News report that states that the Dyfed Powys helicopter is to stay.

It says the Dyfed-Powys Police helicopter will stay but then goes on to acknowledge that the AgustaWestland A109E currently operated is to go and be replaced by an EC135 the very type the region rejected a decade ago. What will former CC Ray White think of that!

What will stay is the base at Pembrey, Carmarthenshire.

In line with NPAS manning levels staff at Pembrey will be cut from nine to seven as the base is transferred. They were grossly undermanned before!

A separate report suggested that the Pembrey operation was to be 24-hour but the manning level suggests that may be a misunderstanding as the current staffing level which is to be reduced would not support that so it is simply adding the 24 hour NPAS cover [apointments may be necessary] that is not on offer at the moment.

Whichever way you look at this it appears to be a massive climb down by NPAS but I suspect there is a time rated clause in the paperwork that quietly expires at the next PCC elections!

Politics :E

[SilsoeSid]

ADS Advance - Bond chooses Britannia 2000 CAMC for NPAS EC135 platforms (http://www.adsadvance.co.uk/bond-chooses-britannia-2000-camc-for-npas-ec135-platforms.html)

More news, but I like the fact that they've used a photograph of G-POLA (the only 135 in the fleet with those markings) edited to be over Wapping. I think it safe to say that she has never been there; so why, assuming the copyright permissions were sought, have PNAS allowed this pic to be published? :E:suspect:

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/ea73daf630253be7287739e109612abc_zps3c3023b1.jpg

[PANews]

I suspect they are way too busy to even consider that amount of detail! Though in view of the receding date for the 'infusion' of the Met into NPAS it might yet become a 'banned' image in the future.

Noteworthy though that the checkerboard 'signature' of a certain individual survives in to NPAS days.;)

[aeromys]

How far does DL's signature go back Bryn? I remember it on our F1 in '89

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/GImages/G-SASU001.jpg

[SilsoeSid]

The checkerboard detail is quite common.
By markings, I meant that POLA is the only 135 in the fleet with the 'EC135' & 'Euorocopter' stickers on the cowlings :8

However, for my fellow recognition nerds out there, despite the blurring effect on the 'London' pic to hide some features, you will also notice;

i. Pilots face/helmet position.
ii. Rear obs right hand position.
iii. The reflection in the fenestron is clear.
iv. Rotating landing lamp still had that u/s bulb.
v. WMids Air Ops badge on rear observers right arm.
vi. Front observers helmet shows white patch between dark visor nose space.
vii. The black velcro strip at the bottom of the flip out panel in front of the pilot can be seen.
viii. The only cleanish area on the base of the normally white aerial rear of the exhaust is present.
ix. Somewhere during the computer manipulation, the camera has been 'adjusted', the ae on the tailboom has disappeared and the ac has been tilted slightly.
:ok:


http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/PolaoverLondonyearight_zps05ab9021.png (http://s52.photobucket.com/user/silsoesid/media/PolaoverLondonyearight_zps05ab9021.png.html)

http://bhxflightguide.********.co.uk/2014/01/tuesday-7-january-2014.html

[SilsoeSid]

As for the background;

Canary Wharf, The Financial District, From The Shard, London, United Kingdom, Uk, Europe Stock Photo 198714461 : Shutterstock (http://www.shutterstock.com/pic.mhtml?id=198714461&src=id)

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/ea73daf630253be7287739e109612abc_zps3c3023b1.jpg

http://opusfs.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/shutterstock_198714461-700x400.jpg

[Harry O]

Re the NPAS helicopter airframes, do they fly much during daylight hours, or is it mostly night work which is covered.
Are there many tasks which need covering during daylight hours, say between "6am until 3pm" in areas outside the Met.
Why don't NPAS use a cheap plank for all UK police photo missions.
its got to be more economical than using a twin engined 135/902 if they need to save money on daytime photo ops and compiling better use of hours and crews. Is there a graph which shows when most hours are flown by NPAS aircraft or hasn't it been drawn yet?

[TeetPongPlug]

Quite a long sentence containing about 30 questions, have you ever thought of being a Politician Harry ?

[zorab64]

Harry, it won't surprise many to hear that different bases fly different profiles & hours, depending on the urban/rural nature of most of their tasking. Drawing graphs, with the plethora of statistics that currently exist, would probably look like a mass of randomly interlinked spiders . . . anyway, you should know what they say about statistics :ugh: In any event, given the rate that different regions have been joining (or not), it wouldn't be easy to make any valid comparisons.

Encouraging the effective use of any airframe, units do not generally go out on specific photo tasks (unless a large number have built up after a run of bad weather or servicing) and will normally dovetail them in to other daylight operations, without significant detour, on the way back to base. If you used a "cheap plank" for those very few urgent photo tasks that have to be flown specifically, it would still be a plank, and not cheap :ok:

[SilsoeSid]

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/4608d6272e7ebc99a56e6c12fcd9a80d_zpsfe265ce5.jpg
:E

[RotaryWingB2]

Brilliant!

[PANews]

That 'quite familiar' checkerboard signature dates back to 1988 and G-BOOV at Farnbough Air Show and appeared on virtually every UK police Aerospatiale/Eurocopter ever sold by 'DL' in the intervening years. Surprisingly it was not exactly common knowledge but he managed to slip it into most designs including POLA.

BOOV shed the checkerband when repainted into conspicuity but the point was that the majority left Oxford wearing it.

He designed that first ever UK police twin Squirrel paint scheme and decided that the checkerboard 'looked right' ..... drawn straight from the same design on his flat cap of yesteryear. The whole design was basically 'jam sandwich' police car.

[SilsoeSid]

That 'quite familiar' checkerboard signature dates back to 1988 and G-BOOV at Farnbough Air Show and appeared on virtually every UK police Aerospatiale/Eurocopter ever sold by 'DL' in the intervening years. Surprisingly it was not exactly common knowledge but he managed to slip it into most designs including POLA.

I think you'll find the truth behind that statement is that the checkerboard on the v.stab was specifically requested when West Mids chose the paint job for POLA. Before that, you may have noticed, it was decided not to have them at all on WMAO.;)

So there's no 'slipping in' been going on around in that part of the woods :rolleyes: :ooh:

http://www.ukemergencyaviation.co.uk/user/cimage/G-WMAO-005.jpg

[SilsoeSid]

Air One! Some people just won't accept that they're now part of NPAS :=

Air One - the eye in the sky « Express & Star (http://www.expressandstar.com/opinion/trusted-voices/andy-and-jill-law/2014/11/25/air-one-the-eye-in-the-sky/)

[MightyGem]

Furious Twitter users replied to the officer, enraged they could find nothing better to do with their time.
I think some people have nothing better to than be outraged/enraged at anything they can find. :hmm:

[John Eacott]

There was scheduled to be a Lippitts Hill Community Engagement Meeting last night (at The Owl :cool: ) to give some discussion on the NPAS and the operation at Lippits Hill. Much local concern about increasing helicopter numbers to be based there; anyone have any gen on this?

[PANews]

Hello John

I was hoping to have an answer to your question about the meeting at the Owl by now but unfortunately the people who live next to both the Owl and Lippitts Hill were both otherwise engaged that night and did not see it as a major issue to attend.....

They think they may know someone who attended but were not expecting a mass meeting out of the event..... They will check.

The meeting was one of a regular 'meet the people' get together's run by the Conservative Party [politics] rather than a protest meeting as such.

They see Lippitts and helicopters at 2am as a fact of life - just like living by Heathrow.

They were tickled that the question originated from Oz though [I did explain the connection]! :ok:

[PANews]

I found out more shortly after posting the above.

NPAS called the meeting of local residents but neither NPAS or the local organisers [the Conservative Party] informed the press as far as I can yet find out. [why?]

There were around 40 present out of around 100+ residences [200 people?] in Lippitts Hill and Bury Road areas [under the flightpath] and that includes the principals [police and politicians]. Richard Watson presiding.

A Back grounder for those wondering why this may matter:

Lippitts Hill Camp was created in the late 1930s as a gun site and was subsequently used as a POW camp, a Civil Defence Centre and a Cold War operations centre before the police purchased it.

Lippitts Hill Camp was purchased by the Metropolitan Police in 1960 and continued it Cold War uses for some years. Helicopters have been operating from there since 1967 and dogs and firearms training was undertaken there until local Conservative member led pressure led to their cessation. The helicopter use, which has in the past peaked at 6 airframes, continues today with three EC145 helicopters. The meeting was about a plan to increase current activity from three aircraft to four. I know that not all residents care a great deal and it seems that only attracting about 30 might support that contention.

The site is partially listed for preservation and remains the best preserved example of both WW2 and Cold War military architecture extant

Long delayed, over a year now, the National Police Air Service want to take over the Metro Police operation at Lippitts Hill. Metro are resisting for various police operational reasons.

It steps back to the usual problem of 'hands off policing'.... after NPAS move in they will be controlled from West Yorkshire and GOD will not be visiting to speak to the neighbours again.

Lippitts is miles too big [a bill] for NPAS and they will go somewhere else as the whim takes them. The Met can arguable design out their current use for the site with the new tranche of Digital Radio comms and get rid of the aerials on site and their need to continue to foot the real estate bill.

[John Eacott]

Thanks for that summary: I guess the Met resistance remains the key to the survival of Lippitts Hill?

[Brilliant Stuff]

I don't know if it has already been mentioned but the 145s were/are slated to be spread around the country once NPAS get their hands on them, so my local ASU tells me. And I imagine that will mean a 135 will go into Lippits which I would have thought makes things quieter for London....

Also I was told Boris is fighting for his helicopters.....I hope that's true...

I personally wish the guys and girls not to be taken over by NPAS.......

It's a serious set up that.

[PANews]

I will say its a strange plan - this removal of the 145s.

Here we have a unit - the ONLY UK unit - that is equipped and training to undertake the rappel and winch role with a specific aircraft type [arguably the only one able to reasonable undertake the role in UK police service] and they are to be cast to the three corners of the UK to people who will certainly not be able to do the training but available for 'instant' recall to the Capital when the anti-terror wheel comes off.

Let us hope that the terrorists that surely will hit London announce their plans well in advance.

Therein may lie the NPAS flaw - the very real worry in Whitehall that London air support is being sacrificed on the West Yorkshire altar.

[SilsoeSid]

Is it fair to lay that or anything NPAS onto West Yorkshire?
Seems like they were sold a flanker and have ended up with a 'Sweeney' like department.

[PANews]

West Yorkshire as in distance/remoteness nothing else.

[SilsoeSid]

PAN, any contacts at Elstree that may have heard something ;)

[RichiePAO]

Eltree had a cessation of ops last month, crews returned to Force....

[PANews]

Seems that the money evaporated with the confidence in the scheme.

Meanwhile the first class facility at Henlow is probably inhabited by bats.....:E

[RichiePAO]

I think it was politics that killed off the Elstree/Wytin trial.
There was also on some occasions a lack of pilot/aircraft/both.
The feedback was on the whole very good with some good results......

Henlow is currently being being put to good use by the Flying Club, so no bats yet.....

[Thomas coupling]

Cabby - I'm sorry, I missed which country you were talking about?
Anyway:
(a) The UK doesn't have a growing police aviation market - in fact it has the opposite.
(b) Avincis is owned by an American conglomerate of Bankers - no wonder Bond have loads of money behind them.
(c) There isn't ANY money to be made in police ops!! Bond know that and are staying well clear. Having said that - I meant w.r.t. operating the fleet as opposed to suppying equipment. That is why UK police air ops will remain in the hands of the government for the foreseeable future. [Unlike HEMS/AA - which is commercial and Bonds domain].

Other than that - good post!

[jayteeto]

Talking to a cop in Liverpool yesterday. They requested a helicopter and got one......... from Wolverhampton!!!
Could this be the job???????

[tigerfish]

What delay? & How well did the attending crew know the area? The old set up from Woodvale would have been just a few minutes.
TF

[SilsoeSid]

Jaytee,

You've not quite the full story on that one.

The problem with call signs the PNAS way is that the individual aircraft keep their callsign and not that of the unit is is working with. Consequently confusion reins and nobody knows who is where and who is who or who the officer on the ground thinks they are actually working with. That's why you get NPAS xx, operated by unit NPAS yy in an area where the officers expect to be working with NPAS aa :eek:

Also kind of messes up the statistics somewhat!!!


Best thing about it all now though, is that at the quietest times of the day regions have four aircraft online, yet at the busiest times only one. Despite what is being said at all these meetings, come 02:30 only one NPAS aircraft covers the area south of Manchester. This will not change due to the continuing need for financial cutbacks.

Latest rumour; April, cuts down to 9 bases, which reflects Sir Bernard's recent statement.

[SilsoeSid]

*
Just to clarify, "the area south of Manchester" encompasses two thirds of England & Wales.

[MightyGem]

come 02:30 only one NPAS aircraft covers the area south of Manchester.
You mean the Hawarden cab is the only one available after that time??

[SilsoeSid]

Lol, I'll ask the question that is always asked in the early hours, where's Harwarden? ;)

[jayteeto]

Thanks Sid, the boys have explained that they are using the Wolverhampton aircraft from their base.

[MightyGem]

And the slide downhill continues to gather momentum. Shifts still being lost due to lack of TFOs and pilots. Pilots disgruntled over the fact that everyone seems to be on different T&Cs. Pilots leaving to go elsewhere. Rumours of another North West Base to close.

It just gets worse and worse. :{ :( :mad: :ugh:

[RotaryWingB2]

Which base MG?

[SilsoeSid]

Stand by for 'Phase 2' :eek:

Phase one being the full implementation of the project with all forces joined; phase two is consolidation and development; and phase three is the future operational and governance model.

http://www.npas.police.uk/sites/npas.police.uk/files/files/wamr58_profile.pdf

[Brilliant Stuff]

Rumour also has it no more freelancers for NPAS.....

[MightyGem]

Which base MG?
The rumour didn't say, but out of the 4, you could probably whittle it down to one of two quite easily. :(

[SilsoeSid]

Of course officially there is nothing planned and nothing being discussed until Phase 1 is complete .... despite it potentially being only being 3 months away nothing has been discussed at any level above pleb :eek:

Unofficial rumour type speculation time scales;

Phase 1 - as long as it takes to get all forces in. When the Met come over, Phase 1 is complete.
Phase 2 - Rumoured to be immediate swathing cuts to rotary and the introduction of the 3 fixed wing. (1st quarter of 2015)
Phase 3 - Once fixed wing are in place, (April 2015) further reductions of rotary and overall staff by last quarter of 2015.

Don't be surprised if this time next year talk is of reducing to 9 rotary units, 3 fixed wing with the possibility of one more fixed wing joining Apr 2016.

Then there's the fabled Phase 4 - When forces realise what they need from air support and have had enough of not getting it. Some decide to go it alone with the help of a labour Home Office providing rotary ASU's that only operate within their own force boundaries, however they will be available to neighbouring forces at a cost, when NPAS ac cannot provide the required service.


To reiterate, this is totally unofficial speculation & rumour. No eavesdropping, paper sifting or memo reading by sources oop north has taken place. Other rumours are available, however how close will they be to the actual outcome cannot be assured :E

[MightyGem]

Then there's the fabled Phase 4 - When forces realise what they need from air support and have had enough of not getting it. Some decide to go it alone with the help of a labour Home Office providing rotary ASU's that only operate within their own force boundaries, however they will be available to neighbouring forces at a cost, when NPAS ac cannot provide the required service.
Well, as the saying goes; the wheel just keeps on turning. It eventually gets back to where it was before.

[SilsoeSid]

http://www.mypokecard.com/en/Gallery/my/galery/wopvBpmWCso0.jpg

[MaxR]

I know that you guys and girls still doing this job have had a rough couple of years; so I just wanted to wish you all the very best for 2015 and thank you for continuing to do a great job in difficult times.

[SilsoeSid]

Happy New Year everyone, have a great night and all the best for 2015. :ok:

Fly save, fly happy and keep yer peckers up, as you'll never have guessed what's just about to come around the corner :eek:

[John Eacott]

An interesting comment in this article from the Guardian, History of Lippits Hill base in Waltham Abbey (http://www.guardian-series.co.uk/news/11702483.The_POW_camp_which_was_transformed_into_a_police_he licopter_base/?ref=fbshr)

They placed military cadets, police horses, firearms and dog training facilities at the base, which started to cause residents concern about noise.

The firearms and dog training were eventually moved out under local pressure, but in 1967 three Bell 47G Sioux helicopters were lent to the police by the army for daylight trials over London.

These trials led to similar police helicopters being housed on a permanent basis at Lippitts Hill from 1976.

Today, three quieter £5million choppers with abseiling equipment, Nitesun searchlights, a Skyshout public address system and heat-seaking sensors are based there to help police all over London.

Cllr Syd Stavrou has said the "uneasy truce" between the Met and residents could end when the National Police Air Service (NPAS) takes over the site in April and established no-fly zones end.

She said: “The residents understand the importance of the aircraft in protecting national security but they don’t want the buzzing to disturb them at night or when they are sunbathing in Summer.

“So far there has been an uneasy truce with the base and the Met have been responsive and have had an open dialogue with residents."

FWIW, my Dad was in charge of the Met observers in the 1967 trial; and I was incredibly disappointed (as only a spotty teenager can be) that he wouldn't let the AAC take me up for a ride when they made the offer!

[SilsoeSid]

Is there any mention of

Jan 6 2015

Prospect has welcomed the Metropolitan Police management board’s decision not to privatise its air support unit.

The police had planned to transfer its air support unit to a national service run by West Yorkshire Constabulary, which would have led to the helicopter engineering staff being outsourced to the private sector.

The union raised concerns over the proposed transfer with the Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe in October.

Prospect national secretary David Luxton said: “The decision has come as a relief to the engineering support staff who had been facing considerable uncertainty over the past 18 months over job security, site location and pension provision.

“The air support unit is an integrated professional service that provides an essential capability for policing in the capital that would have been diminished had the transfer taken place”.


https://usilive.org/sky-high-prospect-celebrates-privatisation-victory/

[PANews]

Still early days yet but I am wondering whether NPAS got slightly burned by that meeting with the local people and politicians.

After a months wait the finalised minutes have still not appeared but, as above, at least one of local newspapers did get in on the act with early reporting the supposed matter of public interest. They too are held back by not yet having the 'real' [aka acceptable version] minutes. Still the interest is running.

The content of the draft minutes suggest a rough ride and yet more heads rolling. Inspector Richard Brandon to go because they cannot afford him, to be replaced by a sergeant and Paul Marrion who is the local NPAS man. Nominally NPAS based in West Yorkshire but he was the Essex Police UEO/Inspector in his time based at the Boreham unit.

More to come I guess......

[SilsoeSid]

I read the trades union page dated 6th January 2015, as saying that the Met ASU aren't going to be part of NPAS :confused:

Sounds like theres a bit of Barney Rubble going on daahn saahf. Someone needs to get on the dog & bone and have a rabbit to find out what the Bobby Moore is about the two & eight of things, cause something pen & inks daahn there. :ok:

[zorab64]

SS - please do some of us "non-plebs" a favour & translate the last transmission into English? Not everyone watches Eastenders with a cockney dictionary to hand, if at all!:ok:

On a more general note, it does seem as if there's a vehicle running along on different sized wheels, not all of which are properly attached at the moment. Is there a stinger ahead?

[Brilliant Stuff]

Thankfully the MET have a bigger set of balls and are happy to stand up against NPAS.:ok::ok:

Considering the monies involved I am glad they are.

[airpolice]

With a further round of budget cuts coming their way, can the MPS afford to turn their back on NPAS?

What if the Home Office stop funding them?

Will MPS make up that shortfall in the face of "Free Cash" from the Home Office if you spend it with our preferred supplier?

If they do, how many Union members will need to be made redundant to cover the retention of the MPS "go it alone" ASU?

[MaxR]

airpolice - Perhaps they've decided that some things are more important than simply the bottom line.

In a world where the price of everything is known and the value of little is understood it is good to see that, perhaps, there are those willing to stand up for what they believe to be right.

[G0ULI]

airpolice
As far as I am aware the Home Office stopped funding the Met years ago. The London tax payers foot the bill, which might explain why the Met is in no hurry to join NPAS. Besides the MPs and financiers wouldn't stand for a degraded service covering their home turf would they?

[PANews]

I could well eat my own words but there is a truth there about balls etc.

On their side in all this is a fact that is strange to the NPAS crew. The Met alone have a number of income and interest streams. Yes there is Home Office money that they and the others now in, or nearly in, NPAS have had to beg for but there are other important elements pulling the strings here and the strongest was just enacted out in Paris today.

There may be some general bleating about delays in sending messages via West Yorkshire but I have serious doubts that any government want their direct air support over Whitehall seriously endangered by adding a layer of decision making in a remote control room that may well put the Government of the day in additional mortal danger.

Its not just that either, historically the Met was always integral in the Defence of this country - even their 1930s Autogiros were written into Dowding's Air Defence of Great Britain - a factor that might be well understood in Northern Ireland. They are NOT in NPAS for many of the self same reasons.

Rumour suggests that the architect of all this thinks its gone too far when it affects what are now his men and maybe he is not to enamoured in placing the grand strategy with the former representative of a police force [Kent] that has a glorious aviation history centred around the Cessna 172 and an annual budget of £25,000 and plans that were a pipe dream called HERTI.

It seems that Gouli posted similar thoughts as I did...

[MightyGem]

As far as I am aware the Home Office stopped funding the Met years ago.
NPAS's Annual Report states that the Met's Annual Home Office grant was reduced by £2.4M for 2013/14 as their Capital Contribution to NPAS, despite them not being part of it. As were the Grants of all the other Forces who are yet to join. Bet they are real chuffed about that.

[airpolice]

So.... you might well take from that, the notion at Lippets Hill is that NPAS is so bad, that it's worth millions a year just not to have anything to do with them!

It would be a winner for NPAS as well, £2.4 million a year for doing nothing.

[Moosehead84]

Hi,

I realise I'm brand new and will ultimately gain mistrust to begin with so let me introduce myself before I contiune!!

For the last 9 years I've been trying to keep the queens peace in a county that borders london. Before that I was cabin crew for a low cost airline that originates in Ireland. I have a huge fascination/interest in aviation and have just applied as a TFO for NPAS.... Which incidentally is probably the only specialty I want to do!

Assuming I pass the the paper sift, I was hoping if anyone here would be able to give me any pointers/help or guidance on revision for the assessment day.

I've just started learning OS map symbols and on my awareness day I got to grips quite quickly learning flight tracking, working out mileage and times. I appreciate its fairly basic but it's a start!

Is there any advice and revision tips/sites anyone could reccomend? I'm not asking for assessment day secrets, just any help would be massively appreciated, I know there are some long serving guys in here and I 'd be grateful for the help.

[tigerfish]

Pedigree & background looks promising and you are asking the right questions! But remember at the end of the day its all about policing, not flying, so being a good operational thieftaker is paramount. The flying bit just helps you to do that. Sadly I am now too far out of it to be able to assist. But go for it!
TF

[volrider]

I have not been on here for a while mainly as I retired from the Police and the great job on Air Support and my new "life" means I am pretty busy doing other "serving the folk stuff"! Anyway in my new role I have had the chance to speak to the odd PCC now and then.

Yesterday wAs a chance to ask a PCC who is on the NPAS team what he knew about the Met, he told me they ARE NOT joining and NPAS is a bit of a mess, they are £1 million overspent and need sorting out..... Thats a shock ;)
West Yorks are not giving up the host force job but it looks like that (as I was told) "flying to burn off hours" has to stop, in fact reining in hours is what I seemed to be getting from him. He also said he thought that NPAS / Police should use Drones for photographic work rather than helicopters....I pointed out that a Drone may well be useful in some minor circumstances of static low level photography but they will never replace a crew and helicopter for most roles, such as pursuits and offender or misper searches, I could see limited use of Drones for police work.
I get the feeling that NPAS is in for a shake up I hope it is the management who have failed the service and public very badly rather than helicopters and their crews. I explained that regionalisation in small groups sharing resources ie using the Midlands as an example where four units worked together to share resources and tasking worked extremely well and that model would be a better alternative better adopted across the UK.

[MightyGem]

NPAS is a bit of a mess, they are £1 million overspent and need sorting out..... Thats a shock
Not really. ;)

[SilsoeSid]

.... it looks like that (as I was told) "flying to burn off hours" has to stop, in fact reining in hours is what I seemed to be getting from him.

At the moment, if a force doesn't fly off the annual hours it has paid for it won't receive a refund. In which case burning off the hours, for want of a better phrase, is the only way of getting a return for your money. Of course reigning in the hours makes financial sense if you haven't already paid for them and it still stands that the clear and obvious way to save money in this business is to reduce flying hours in the first place.

Drones are all well and good, especially for those thermals, but as most of us know thermal jobs are done on the back of other jobs. However, when the thermals mount up and flights occur purely to reduce that list, many more jobs are attended .... in particular crime type jobs, the type drones would be no use whatsoever on. In addition, if drones are used for purely drone type jobs, results when the doors are knocked would dramatically fall.

It's not unheard of to launch for an hour on a few thermals and up with an unrelated 6 collars from crime on the wheel ... just like the good old days :ok:

Can someone please confirm the cost of a phone ping, I'd like to compare it to the proposed £1600/hr for a helicopter deployment.


It may be a rumour, but in a recent survey, 85% of NPAS employees came up with the same method of saving £1 million a year :ooh:

[Thomas coupling]

Volrider, I didn't know that the SLA (NPAS) team had a PCC on it? So which PCC are you talking about as the only one who knows anything must be the PCC for W Yorkshire Police?
Be very careful what you talk about here - this information - if correct has a very negative influence on things.

[The results of the latest NPAS financial audit is and always has been available to the public and was even advertised on here several moons ago. It is common knowledge that they are in deficit. And by a lot more than £1m!].

Can you be more specific about who the PCC was please as I don't think they have a habit of spouting on about confidential stuff like this to any tom, dick or harry.

[Geoffersincornwall]

.... that the plot of 'THE MARK' is a little close to, well.... the mark !!!

G. :ok:

[volrider]

Hi TC Tom Dick and Harry here (wow so many names can I claim pension benefits for all?)

"The NPAS Strategic Board shall comprise of a Local Police Body and
a Chief Police Officer (or their representatives) from each of the six
NPAS air support regions. These twelve individuals shall hold voting
rights on the Board. All other members of the Board, including the
Lead Local Policing Body and the Lead Local Chief Constable shall
attend in an ex-officio capacity;"

Not sure if he is on this bit or on some sort of committee, they are popular amongst those powerful people ....

The PCC I spoke to was knowledgeable about the subject and knows my history with Air Ops and my views.
Thank you for offering your advice on censorship, although as it is a public service the public should know what they are not getting for their money? As you have stated in your posy the figures are "out there" My guess was when he said £1 million that with politicians the figure has been downsized considerably ;)

[Filtre de fadaises]

Just to clarify, Volrider, were you speaking to a PCC (an elected, political, Police & Crime Commissioner) or an appointed, non-political, Chief Constable? There's quite a big difference, I'd suggest.
Don't forget that PCCs have effectively done away with "Local Police Bodies", the old Police Authorities which were mostly made up of elected members of other bodies, before the PCCs called on a miniscule number of the electorate.

TC has some valid points re confidentiality. Inappropriate disclosure shines bad light on this forum, however public-spirited it may appear.

[Thomas coupling]

That's right Filter, Your average PCC doesn't go around making statements or off the cuff comments to people he doesn't know very well indeed for fear of them going public as Volrider has done on this forum.
Sorry Vol - but I suspect you talked to the wrong man or he/she told you a little porky. They simply don't divulge information like this, in this manner.

However - for your information - all the PCC's of each force who have a stake in NPAS, form a separate committee which inputs to the SLA.

[volrider]

Well I know
A it was a PCC
B He is on some sort of committee over seeing/ monitoring NPAS

I do not see why you have such concerns when this place thrives on rumour with the odd fact, I produce the fact and you start running around shooting the messenger, FFS wake up smell the coffee or sit behind your comfort zone and watch it fall about you, either way I give not a sh1t, I am out of it dealing with other battles that leaves me little time to offer further information to you that dont want or need it...
Have fun..

[Thomas coupling]

Calm down....calm down, Captain Mainwaring! The BIG difference between other rumour mongers on here and your post is that you were directly quoting a senior insider - now that adds significant credence to what you say, I think you'll agree. This then lends itself to supporting the argument wholeheartedly.

I'm not saying the rumour is accurate or otherwise but surely you have been around long enough to realise that a PCC is NOT going to speak out of turn about something as politically charged as this unless it was uttered in confidence to you and you felt there was a public need to spill the beans - thereafter?

Why didn't you just say: I've heard rumours that.....................and not mention the PCC bit.

Relax - breathe slowly....................................................:o k:

[volrider]

TC as always I thank you for your advice, but are you saying not to tell the truth, but make it up as I go along? Would that not make the story unsubstantiated and a rumour? Is that what you want fiction rather than fact?

http://s3.postimg.org/yda1isy6b/Sometimes_people_dont_want_to_hear_the_truth_bec.png

[Geoffersincornwall]

..... you want fiction? Try reading 'THE MARK'. That's a work of fiction .... probably......!!

G.

:ok:

[SilsoeSid]

:confused::confused::confused:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mark_(novel)

Plot summary

His Excellency Global Community Supreme Potentate Nicolae Carpathia has been resurrected and indwelt by Satan himself. He plans to remodel his offices and add two floors to his palace, including a glass ceiling. He also demands that the people of the Global Community worship him. Statues of himself are erected for worship. He introduces Viv Ivins to the senior staff and tells them of the loyalty mark program. The Antichrist declares that every single person on earth must receive his mark of loyalty and worship his image or lose their head to the loyalty enforcement facilitator. David Hassid finally finds out that his fiancée Annie Christopher has been killed by lightning called down by GC Supreme Commander and False Prophet Leon Fortunato.

Albie and Rayford Steele run across Steve Plank, under the alias Pinkerton Stephens, at Boulder, CO, where Hattie has been taken. Steve tells them his conversion story; he became a believer during the Wrath of the Lamb Earthquake, surviving but losing much of his body. He now wears prosthetic body parts and uses a wheelchair. The three then carry out the incredible rescue of Hattie Durham, who finally becomes a believer. Before they rescue her, she tries to hang herself in her room.

Terror comes to Christians in Greece as they are among the first to receive the death penalty for refusing the mark. Lukas Miklos loses his wife, his pastor, his pastor's wife and dozens of fellow Greek believers to the guillotine, while Cameron "Buck" Williams, who is in Greece in disguise along with Albie, help two Greek teenagers escape the detention center. Meanwhile, back in the states, Gustaf Zuckermandel, Jr. also known as Zeke, is distraught to find out that his father, whom everyone calls "Big Zeke", has suffered the same fate after being caught helping and supplying other believers (subversives, according to the GC).

In New Babylon, David Hassid, Mac McCullum, Abdullah Smith, and Hannah Palemoon plan to leave, taking Ming Toy's 17 year-old brother Chang Wong (who is also a believer) along with them. But Chang, a computer prodigy, was brought by his parents to New Babylon, hoping to get him hired in Carpathia's forces. Determined to "make proud", Mr. Wong has Chang drugged, carried to the mark application site, and held down, even as he protests. But even after being given the mark of the beast against his will, Chang still has the mark of the believer clearly visible because he never "accepted" the mark of the beast. In this, David and Chang discover a great advantage: Chang can now be the new Tribulation Force mole in the GC Headquarters Palace as he can come, go, and trade freely. Meanwhile, the others plan a plane crash to deceive the GC into thinking they're dead while they join up with the Tribulation force to get ready for the massive exodus for believers which they call "Operation Eagle".

Everything reaches a climax when Carpathia announces that he will be returning to Jerusalem to occupy what he believes is his rightful house: the Jewish Temple.

What do you mean, 'probably a work of fiction'?
:confused:

[SilsoeSid]

This one?

The Mark (The Mark, #1) by Jen Nadol ? Reviews, Discussion, Bookclubs, Lists (http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6508352-the-mark)

The Mark
by Jen Nadol

Sixteen year old Cassandra Renfield has seen the mark since forever: a glow around certain people as if a candle were held behind their back.

The one time she mentioned it to someone else, the mark was dismissed as a trick of the light. So Cassie has kept quiet, considering its rare appearances odd, but insignificant. Until the day she watches a man die. Mining her memories, Cassie realizes she can see a person's imminent death. Not how or where, only when: today.

Cassie searches her past, her philosophy lessons, even her new boyfriend for answers, answers, always careful to hide her secret. How does the mark work? Why her?

Most importantly: if you know today is someone's last, should you tell them?


Probably? :confused::confused::confused:

[Geoffersincornwall]

THE MARK - by Geoff Newman - a little more relevant methinks but 10/10 for looking.

G.

:ok:

[SilsoeSid]

Unless you mean the book of Mark and perhaps the 'Parable of the Growing Seed' is what you had in mind for us to read.


He said, "The Kingdom of God (https://mobile.twitter.com/npasgod) is as if a man should cast seed on the earth, and should sleep and rise night and day, and the seed should spring up and grow, he doesn't know how. For the earth bears fruit: first the blade, then the ear, then the full grain in the ear. But when the fruit is ripe, immediately he puts forth the sickle, because the harvest has come."

— Mark 4:26-29



Click on the link, and would 'the harvest' referred to be Phase 2?

[Colonal Mustard]

Personally i like this one, the plot sounds like an NPAS theme

The Mark (2012) - Plot Summary - IMDb (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2058710/plotsummary?ref_=tt_ov_pl)

[SilsoeSid]

Can we add the thinning 'blue & yellow' line?

Disillusioned, Embittered but Not Afraid: The UK's Thinning Blue Line Brace Themselves for Armageddon.*|*Chris Hobbs (http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/chris-hobbs/police-cuts_b_6454652.html)

[Nail The Dream]

Going back a few posts to one from PANews :

I have serious doubts that any government want their direct air support over Whitehall seriously endangered by adding a layer of decision making in a remote control room that may well put the Government of the day in additional mortal danger.

They seem to be OK with endangering everywhere else in the Country with that additional layer .... :ugh:

Nail

[SilsoeSid]

Just to set the record straight, there isn't a control room in NPAS, however there is a Despatch and Flight Monitoring Centre.

NPAS Despatch Centre | NPAS (http://www.npas.police.uk/about-us/npas-despatch-centre)

Operating from a West Yorkshire Police Control Room, the Despatch and Flight Monitoring Centre for the National Police Air Service is provided on a 24 hour basis to assist the police forces of England and Wales. Around 65 000 requests for service are received by telephone or electronic message each year and these are processed by the team of experienced despatch staff to ensure that the air support resources are allocated effectively and efficiently.

Whist in flight, the team employs a networked radio system and electronic mapping to follow the progress of every police flight as an enhancement to safety in addition to improving a situational awareness that enables a swift response to developing police priorities.

The centre is also able to provide assistance to other partner organisations such as the Fire Service and British Transport Police and has developed a close working regime with the Air Sea Rescue Service.

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/31aa216b7ae4b9142ee332fc852f9f07_zps1a3346dd.jpg

[SilsoeSid]

Makes you wonder how everyone managed in the past without the extra 34 dispatchers.

[RichiePAO]

Silsoesid, it seemed to work ok and some work argue more efficiently in days gone by without the Despatch and Flight Monitoring Centre......

[SilsoeSid]

Remembering back to what Labour left the present Govt to sort out, I wonder if this Govt will do likewise to some of those in our small world :eek:

http://i4.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article4351381.ece/alternates/s615/Conservative-Party-Conference.jpg

Wasn't me Guv'!

[Brilliant Stuff]

I seem to remember the first ping was free and the second one £30....

[PANews]

The Met join 31 March.

The Wales South group join next week.

That leaves Humberside awaiting the expiry of their rather steel plated contracts in [I believe] 2016. Maybe whoever wrote them should advise others!

Then, only then, will the fat lady sing and there will be no excuses. No difficulties to hide behind.

[Brilliant Stuff]

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*

That is a great shame that the Met are joining NPAS, I hoped they could defy them...

My condolences to Lippits Hill.

[Cabby]

Will the Met be trading a 145 for a 135.
Any bets on where the 145 will be moving to, south yorks or west yorks ;)

[PANews]

To be pedantic on the wording... The Met... will be doing nothing.

All moves are in the lap of NPAS now, but yes 135s will be arriving at Lippitts Hill to do the day-to-day flying anytime soon.

[Nail The Dream]

Cabby was asking in the Singular ( "a" 145 for "a" 135 ),
but PANews has replied in the Plural ( "135s" ) - Interesting ! :rolleyes:

Nail

[Brilliant Stuff]

I have been told Filton are dreaming of 1 145, no idea what for though...

[heli1]

Brill Stuff...Could be the Avon fire brigade rumour resurfacing again.They have a desire to use one across the southwest and South Wales for support .

[MightyGem]

And another unexpected night off for a crew due to lack of a pilot. :ugh:

[Cabby]

Re MG's:And another unexpected night off for a crew due to lack of a pilot

What happens to the PC's? do they go back on the beat, or is it time for a hammock at the base?

[jayteeto]

Out on the beer I believe...........

[MightyGem]

What happens to the PC's? do they go back on the beat, or is it time for a hammock at the base?
Ours used to have to take Annual Leave or take the hammock option(when on nights).

[Thomas coupling]

A week ago, it was advertised in the MET union paper that categorically the MET ASU would stay outside NPAS, now it's a done deal and the MET will be subsumed ASAP. Why the U turn?

[Digital flight deck]

TC. Because the home office told them to?

[Lokon]

What happens to the PC's......they watch DVD's!

South Yorkshire Police officer suspended over claims he used force helicopter to film activity at dogging spots - The Star (http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/crime/south-yorkshire-police-officer-suspended-over-claims-he-used-force-helicopter-to-film-activity-at-dogging-spots-1-7088172#.VNJ55MFchh8.twitter)

[jayteeto]

Obviously the taking home bit isn't good, but there could be more to this. When we used to go for a "mooch around" hi visibility patrol, dogging sites had rich pickings for drunk and drugged drivers. We had one car investigated with an 80yr old man getting a chewie whilst drinking a bottle of finest red. He had driven there and blew 100+ at the station. Fish in a barrel.
The locals also constantly complain about the police not patrolling dogging sites

[MightyGem]

It's all going horribly wrong:
One-third of police helicopter bases in England and Wales could be closed because of government funding cuts, the BBC has learned.

The National Police Air Service (NPAS) is considering plans to reduce the number of its bases from 20 to 15.
BBC News - Third of police helicopter bases in England and Wales could close (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31152569)

[Colonal Mustard]

(It's all going horribly wrong)

MG its not going horribly wrong........its going exactly how everyone with common sense said it would.......downwards .:ugh:

[Self loading bear]

The number of planks which is rumoured on this thread makes me fear the worst possible.

6 planks make a coffin!:sad::sad::sad:

SLB

[tigerfish]

Well its certainly as I predicted and continued to foretell since 2011, my beliefs cost me my job, but I always did hope that UK Police Air Support would survive. Now I fear not.
How long before the lads re discover the freedom of Ram raiding and vehicle chases?
The efficiency that we once had, has all but dissipated. Policing no longer considered valuable by an out of touch administration.
Shame really.
TF

[PANews]

Like some of you I do not know quite what this terse BBC item is on about.

There is nothing obvious there to suggest whether this is a fly on the wall insider information, a report or a release from NPAS. Whether it is happening as we speak, a plan or a project.

However, what this report does not mention is cutting airframes. Whether the proposal is to retain all or most of the air assets [by number] but to place all of them in less bases.

If times are hard there are savings to be made on base rents and stores logistics etc. let alone the need to duplicate any planned operation wide technology upgrades. That fits in with the mooted additional aircraft at Lippitts Hill and with some of the original, as yet unseen, proposals to co-locate in the Midlands.

Get rid of Boreham [where the gravel extraction gets closer daily], Pembrey [too close to St Athan and never in the plan anyway], Sheffield [never in the plan] and Birmingham [in the plan] all make some sense but the BBC angle does not really put that across.

The quote from CS Whitehouse suggests this is an official announcement only to the BBC but its strange that just the one source has it unless there are expectations that some pop star might be due for a search!

[Cabby]

How long was spent on the task in hand :E
Police helicopter officer 'filmed couples having sex' | Metro News (http://metro.co.uk/2015/02/04/police-helicopter-officer-filmed-couples-having-sex-5048723/)
I bet the downlink wasn't being used at the time ;)
The Sun (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/6322952/Helicopter-cop-suspended-after-claims-he-filmed-couples-at-dogging-sites-EXCLUSIVE.html)

PC suspended after allegations he filmed people as they had sex - from a HELICOPTER - Mirror Online (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/pc-suspended-after-allegations-filmed-5102466)

[MightyGem]

There is nothing obvious there to suggest whether this is a fly on the wall insider information, a report or a release from NPAS. Whether it is happening as we speak, a plan or a project.
Observers that I know say that they've been talking of little else for the past week or so, but were "encouraged not to speculate on social media.".

[Faithless]

Well looks like we'll have to move to Africa then!
Former Suffolk police helicopter helps quell trouble at African Cup of Nations semi-final between Equatorial Guinea and Ghana - News - East Anglian Daily Times (http://www.eadt.co.uk/news/former_suffolk_police_helicopter_helps_quell_trouble_at_afri can_cup_of_nations_semi_final_between_equatorial_guinea_and_ ghana_1_3946895)

[Cabby]

Was that a touch and go in the picture! Imagine losing a donkey at that height :eek:

Is it true that NPAS staff are now using spare police helicopters instead of travelling by car between bases, to carry out the 6 monthly check rides on pilots?

Car v helicopter travel costs, £50 v £2000 per hour... must be a better way to save money if they are looking at saving money.
How many pilots do NPAS now have on the books?

[MightyGem]

I see that Sid's not been around for a couple of weeks. Silenced by the gag order?

About a month ago, I emailed the PCCs of the Forces that seem to have come off worse with NPAS(ie, paying more, considerably in one or two cases, for sometimes less hours), and asked them if they thought they were getting value for money and were they satisfied with the NPAS setup. Received one reply so far. Here is part of the reply:
I share your concerns. However the police could not go on with each force running its own air wing with different airframes, different equipment suites in similar aircraft, different ownerships of aircraft and completely different contractual arrangements. It was hugely wasteful.

In reply to your two questions the answer is probably no and no. I agree with some of the points you make, not others. There should be sustainability, so that if a crewman is sick or on leave there is an immediate replacement. The same with pilots.

Savings are being made, but in the current financial climate probably not enough. Helicopters should only be used when absolutely necessary. Very few tasks require a helicopter, a fixed wing would do the job perfectly well at a far lower cost and less obtrusively. This is being addressed, albeit slowly.

Most of the points you raise are about management, and I will take up those issues. ........I do have the background not to have the wool pulled over my eyes on the running of NPAS.

I have some major issues with the way NPAS was rapidly put together without enough thought, and we are now in the teething trouble stage that should have been avoidable. It will take time to sort out. You cannot run what is a fairly complex aviation company and expect senior police officers to know how to run it. It will be sorted out, but not as quickly as it should be

[SilsoeSid]

... Oh! This one;

http://media.tab.co.uk/blogs.dir/13/files/2012/11/PF-Gimp.jpg

However;

'John Apter, chairman of Hampshire Police Federation, calls the planned cuts an 'Absolute Disgrace', in this vocal radio interview with BBC Radio Solent's Louisa Hannan'

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=774727089276300&fref=nf

[Nail The Dream]

It's up to the Public now.....

Game over then !

"The Public" haven't got a clue what happened with the Mandation of NPAS,
they haven't got a clue what happens now on a daily basis with NPAS,
and haven't got a clue what is going to happen with NPAS in the future.

Mr. Apter got one thing right in that Interview though : "It's an absolute disgrace" :yuk:

Nail

[Thomas coupling]

Well closing of N Wales or Hawarden is going to be decided in the next two weeks. :ugh:

To be fair to NPAS: They couldn't possibly have known that this round of cuts would be as big as it is. They played what they were dealt with.

So are we now looking at :
(a) 15 units of which "X" will be FW? The MET have joined which will mean an instant saving of "Y" by cutting the number of their cabs down by one and changing the old 145's to new 135's. Perhaps 1 x 135 and 1 x FW for them then???
(b) 24/7 for all.

(c) Mass civilianisation of TFO's :=

[Cabby]

This is the new circle map for the new NPAS planks based in eeh by gum country.
https://www.sheffield.ac.uk/polopoly_fs/1.46951!/image/uk_circles.gif

Will they be using static balloons similar to the afghan thermal camera set up next. Coming to a town near you. Tethered balloon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tethered_balloon)

[PANews]

Cabby

That might be difficult

They ripped up the runway at Sheffield yonks ago.

Perhaps you will need to find another airport in ee by gum land to fit your prophesy? Something operated by [Sir Robert ] Peel perhaps?

The old chap must be spinning in his grave by now. No cops, no cop shops, no helipads... what next!:sad:

Mind you great idea about static balloons as long as they can get a protocol in place that does not require a pilot to let the string out..... Meanwhile we may forget the debacle that resulted from Greater Manchester Police owning just such a device not so long ago.

[Rotate too late]

I get that there MAY be savings to be had, but at what point do we look at the map and say that's it, any less and the coverage is compromised to such an extent that the user, therefore the customer just says no thanks. A quick look at the current NPAS map suggests a bit of trimming could be made but from somebody on the outside looking in, I am struggling to see how the bases will cover the main areas of the UK in a TIMELY fashion and therefore stay relevant. Keep up the good work either way. :ok:

[Cabby]

There's a bit of the runway left at Sheffield ;) As for the balloons may be a drone or two are what the higher ups are thinking about.
The interactive map made me wonder which they have their eye on.
Listening to some reports there are odds being given on the following 5 bases being given the chop in no particular order.
1.Birmingham
2.Hawarden
3.Benson
4.Sheffield
5.Durham Tees Valley
Was talk of Boreham if the MET were onboard in time.
Just rumours of course. NPAS Bases Interactive Map | NPAS (http://www.npas.police.uk/bases/interactive-map)

[Woowooneenor]

That list is very different to the lists being rumoured around different bases! No point spreading rumours as nobody but top bods really know. We'll find out in just over a week anyway!

Cabby was asking earlier what happens to the PC's when pilots go sick.

Answer : they can go home (but take annual leave) they can stay in the office and do paperwork or like happened our way recently, they can go out on patrol in a vehicle. Two burglars got caught by two TFO's not that long ago who were patrolling due to poor weather. :D

The crews can do what they want. Some are more motivated than others!

[Cabby]

Its gone a bit quiet on this thread. Have NPAS banned staff from posting :confused:
What happens to staff who may be located at one of the rumoured bases which may be closing.
Are there many empty posts at other NPAS bases with the previous comments about shifts being lost due to the lack of pilots?

[SilsoeSid]

Cabby, it's a simple matter of no-one, apart from 'the management', knows anything.

… if we are banned from posting, remember;

90lPCeOoIqs

[MightyGem]

Not so much banned as
"encouraged not to speculate on social media."

Are there many empty posts at other NPAS bases with the previous comments about shifts being lost due to the lack of pilots?
I believe that there are a few.