UK NPAS discussion thread: Mk 4 [Archive] - Page 2

SilsoeSid

16th Jun 2014, 18:41

This doesn't just happen at the 'warden so I hear!

Pilot availability aside, saving money by not having overtime for TFO's is without doubt, detrimental to operational capability and this is especially so for urban units. This is increasing the number of ac being single crewed resulting in the effectiveness of these units being restricted. In turn, this extends the circumference of these well known circles for those able to do the tasks requiring a full crew. If it doesn't work with traffic or patrol cars, how can we expect it to work with helicopters?

What we end up with is ac flitting across regions covering the shortfall, but never quite getting to the jobs in time due to the extended areas of coverage. A dog chasing its tail may look very funny to 'the owner', but to the dog with it's sense of duty, it's very frustrating. Eventually, people get fed up with watching your dog chasing its tail, so they don't ask for it any more!

Without doubt, this is a direct example of how cost cutting is having a detrimental effect on operational capability.

In the words of Mr Fawlty:
Listen, don't mention the single crewing! I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it all right. [returns to the Germans]
So! It's all forgotten now, and let's hear no more about it. So, that's two egg mayonnaise, a prawn Wakefield, a Hermann Section 23FA, and four collaboration agreement salads.

Manuel: [hidden behind front desk, with moose head in plain sight] How are YOU, sir? I can speak police aviation. I learn it from a book.

http://hegemonyheights.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/flowery-twats.jpg
A genuine broadcasted title piece!

handysnaks

16th Jun 2014, 19:55

Jayteeto.
It depends on how the organisation play the future!
At the moment, you are destined to stay on your existing T's and C's until
1. You leave or retire
2. You ask to go onto the NPAS pay scale (no guarantee that this would be permitted, but as it might be more simple to administrate then maybe the request would be approved).
3. Some time in the future the organisation decides that for an economic, technical or organisational reason, they need to put everyone onto a single NPAS pay scale.

seniortrooper

17th Jun 2014, 08:58

How long then before someone in NPAS says to their lawyer - I earn £46000 as a line pilot for "X" and the same job next door earns: £85000?
My experience of TUPE suggests that at a minimum, it causes consternation, at worst: disruption and law suits.I suppose you could top up everyone elses salary to that of the Met's when they get cash back from selling one of the EC145's which will be surplus to requirements - no?

Nail The Dream

17th Jun 2014, 09:30

... bobbies regularly say they have stopped bothering to ask for a helicopter
because it takes an hour to turn up. They have lost confidence in the service.

Predicted ( and feared ) by many before they were forced into NPAS.

Those at NPAS will look at the reduction in hours flown and say,
"Look how much we have saved" :yuk:

'Yes we can, but it will take us 50 minutes to get there"

Is there a cut off time for when the 20 minute circles no longer apply ? :rolleyes:

How long then before someone in NPAS says to their lawyer -
I earn £46000 as a line pilot for "X" and the same job next door earns: £85000?

It'll be about 3 and half months ( to 1st October ) won't it ?

Nail

handysnaks

17th Jun 2014, 10:31

Seniortrooper, as the law is fairly clear on the way TUPE works, I suspect the lawyer would advise his client that he doesn't have a case!

I will probably live to regret the next few paragraphs but.......:(

I think that there is a lot of wishful thinking going on regarding the current situation and comparing it to the past. Had NPAS not happened, police air support would not be like it was prior to NPAS. it may be true to say that there would be some differences in which units were still in existence and which weren't, but to think we wouldn't have lost any is delusional. There is no way of proving how many units would have disappeared but my own guess is that we would have seen at least another 3 or 4 units close down. Furthermore, those units that were left would have ended up doing pretty much what they are doing now (in terms of the distances travelled to tasks), as those forces that kept their aircraft tried to spread the costs of ownership and operation with the forces that were now without air support. I suspect that the Met would have stayed UDI but I think that all other units would have ended up covering much greater areas, (very much like we are doing at the moment). I'm sure everyone has an opinion as to how this or that may have been done better but that is all it is, an opinion. The organisation is what it is and once the decision was made that it would be a single entity, the size of the 'headquarters or managment department' became necessary because of the requirements of the regulator, not through choice.

Sniping and carping is easy, and if you are external to NPAS is your right, if you are in NPAS, then how about putting your (sensible and achievable) suggestions for improving the service through he normal internal channels? The fact is that we are still here to try and provide the best air support we can with the resources we have.

SilsoeSid

17th Jun 2014, 10:56

Sniping and carping is easy, and if you are external to NPAS is your right, if you are in NPAS, then how about putting your (sensible and achievable) suggestions for improving the service through he normal internal channels? The fact is that we are still here to try and provide the best air support we can with the resources we have.

I had a sensible and achievable suggestion just last week that was put up the chain. I was even told by said chain that it was indeed a sensible suggestion ….. however;

http://static.someecards.com/someecards/usercards/1346518832154_9243609.png

Sloppy Link

17th Jun 2014, 14:07

Dear. Mr Sid,
Thank you for your contribution, I shall file it along with the other twenty two volumes of sensible and achievable suggestions that you have submitted in the past.

Regards

NPAS

SilsoeSid

18th Jun 2014, 11:44

Bugger! …. does this mean the Milton Keynes and Kings Lynn tasks are still up for grabs?

Oh well, Brum always liked an occasional trip to the seaside :ok:

Brum At The Seaside (1991) - YouTube

SilsoeSid

18th Jun 2014, 23:04

Technology upgrade will improve NPAS helicopter range | UK Police News - Police Oracle (http://www.policeoracle.com/news/Police+IT+and+Technology/2014/Jun/18/Technology-upgrade-will-improve-NPAS-helicopter-range_83709.html)

A complete systems upgrade on part of the National Police Air Service (NPAS) fleet will improve the quality of intelligence gathered by crews and allow the helicopters to fly further for longer. The improvement programme to seven of NPAS's 22...

So, should some not come into NPAS, those units with the upgrades will be able to travel the greater distances needed to cover the shortfall. If the speed was also increased in this upgrade, the 20 minutes will still be achievable. Did I say still achievable!

Has there been any media confirmation that the Met are joining in October and if there has been, does it mention how the service provided will be better?

Art of flight

19th Jun 2014, 06:37

I wonder if Brum might like the odd trip to London in the middle of the night to enhance the Mets service :uhoh:

SilsoeSid

19th Jun 2014, 07:07

I believe that has already been requested!

The realisation of an unfamiliar crew going down the M1 or the M40 playing catch up into Heathrow's airspace, and the consequences of then having to call a Cat A, put the dampers on that one!

Of course, Brum has been known to go to the big town before;

Brum and the Helicopter (http://youtu.be/F4fxiyj6QVE)

misterbonkers

19th Jun 2014, 12:05

Don't panic Captain Mannering! I think you'll find Heathrow quite accommodating in the middle of the night. In fact between 2330 of 0300 you'll probably have the sky to yourselves :ok:

Sky Sports

19th Jun 2014, 13:19

Any word on who has won the maintenance contract yet?

SilsoeSid

19th Jun 2014, 21:40

That may well be the case MrB, and I have absolutely no doubt that Heathrow are very accommodating, however it's not 'til after 03:00 when the jobs come in! :sad:

Nail The Dream

20th Jun 2014, 12:27

Any truth in the latest rumour I heard about the "Technology Upgrade",
i.e. that although a certain Company ( Bond ) may have won the contract,
there are some logistical, procedural, or regulatory type of issues preventing them from doing the work,
and that the Contract may now pass on to one of the other contenders ( at Oxford ? ) :ugh:

Nail

SilsoeSid

20th Jun 2014, 15:43

West Yorkshire police chief suspended over ?Northern Ireland criminal activity? - Yorkshire Evening Post (http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/latest-news/top-stories/west-yorkshire-police-chief-suspended-over-northern-ireland-criminal-activity-1-6686794)

West Yorkshire Police chief constable Mark Gilmore has been suspended over alleged “criminal activity during his time in Northern Ireland”, we understand.

A press conference is set to take place today called by Mark Burns-Williamson, police and crime commissioner for the county and the man with the power to hire or fire the chief constable.

Officials have refused to comment on what will be announced, but it is understood Mr Gilmore has been now been suspended.

SilsoeSid

24th Jun 2014, 16:49

Not being a part of the show myself these days, apparently the NPAS training is now at a higher level than the previous training standards :cool:

Does that mean then, that all the present TFO's have been retrained to these higher standards? How will we know if a present TFO would pass an NPAS TFO course? Let's say one was off for a few months, sick maybe or comp, would they have a refresher followed by a line check, or be made to do the new course?

Just wonderin', 'cause I'd hate to think there wasn't a level playing field round these parts :E

Never quite liked the ice skating way of measuring ability :ooh:

Flarechecklevel

25th Jun 2014, 13:09

Out of interest... what course do the NPAS Police Officers go through?

A friend of mine is an Observer at the Met and his selection and training was NAILS !

6 month selection, multiple interviews, map reading, first aid and swimming tests, teamwork days, Police tests, flight test and even had to go to RAF Cranwell and pass that !.... And that was just selection. Then it was a 3 month 5 day a week course before being let loose on the front seat camera ONLY. Minimum 3 months in the front seat before doing a month course to sit in the back.

Fair Play ....

How are the guys selected and trained now ?

FCL

Filtre de fadaises

26th Jun 2014, 09:57

I'm amazed that any public body can afford to maintain a TFO selection & training process that can only be described as '70s or '80s military style (& cost), from the description above.

I understand most Forces had already put together more cost effective, but certainly shorter & realistic, selection & training processes pre-NPAS . . . although, reading between the lines, current selection may be accepting a lower pass-mark, & I get vibes that training is minimal, possibly unrealistic, not uniform and even maybe more expensive, certainly when local procedures (to make up for the minimalist course) are taken into account

Don't you just love organisations set up to save tax-payers's money?

Emoticons still not working or the head would be banging the wall. . .

SilsoeSid

26th Jun 2014, 12:50

Wasn't there a very good training base that ran the initial course for most of the countries air units before, (and you've already guessed it), it was closed down with the onset of NPAS? Further training was then completed at the respective units.

Are we going to have a discussion similar to this one?
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/285050-want-police-air-observer.html
Genuine jobs here, but be warned if you are interested, there is a catch. Because they will make you a PCSO, when the aircraft is off-line for servicing or weather, you will be walking the streets.

How long before the 'passenger' status is mentioned?

MightyGem

26th Jun 2014, 19:48

A friend of mine is an Observer at the Met and his selection and training was NAILS !
Yeah. Saw that on the TV a couple of years ago. Somewhat excessive was my opinion. But that's the Met for you.

SilsoeSid

26th Jun 2014, 21:23

Police helicopter deal a terrible waste of money - News - East Anglian Daily Times (http://www.eadt.co.uk/news/suffolk_police_helicopter_deal_a_terrible_waste_of_money_1_3 649409)

Suffolk: Police helicopter deal a ‘terrible waste of money’

The value of retaining a police helicopter for Suffolk has been brought into question after it was revealed that the constabulary is paying double the rate it actual uses the service.

In the last year, Suffolk Constabulary paid £800,000 for air support to the National Police Air Service (NPAS), but the force helicopter flew half its allocated flying hours.

Suffolk’s police crime commissioner, Tim Passmore, called the current arrangement a “terrible waste of money” and insisted the constabulary push for a change in the way costs are contributed to the national service, which has provided centralised air support since 2012, before which forces operated their own helicopters.

At a meeting of Suffolk’s accountability and performance panel, at police HQ in Martlesham Heath this week, assistant chief officer Phillip Clayton said the past year had been largely positive for the budget, with more savings delivered than required.

But Mr Clayton admitted that any areas of concern would need to be addressed in order to continue in the same vein.

Mr Clayton called the current sir support contract “inequitable” and said he would strongly support pushing for a change in the way costs are contributed towards managing the service provided by the NPAS.

“It’s in everyone’s interest to pay for something on an equitable basis if it’s done nationally,” he said.

The NPAS was brought in with the aim of cutting £15m from police budgets.

All forces were asked to contribute towards the costs of managing the service, with flight hours allocated to each force based on historic use of their helicopter with their provider at the time.

Suffolk was consequently allocated 600 hours - an amount that, over the last two years, has proved to be more than required.

Mr Passmore said: “It is essential to have air support for certain operations, but it comes at a cost that we are not in a position to afford.

“I’m not prepared to use Suffolk taxpayers’ money like that - full stop.

“It’s a terrible waste of money and I’m not prepared to put up with it.”

Norfolk and Suffolk paid a combined total of £1.16m between April 2013 and April 2014.

Suffolk contributed £800,000 and was budgeted for 600 hours of air support compared to Norfolk’s 220 hours, despite being the smaller force.

By March this year, Suffolk had used just over half its allocation but had been able transfer a portion of its hours to Norfolk, retrieving £39,000 and taking down its annual contribution to £761,000 compared to Norfolk’s £399,000.

Still, it'll be all sorted once everyone comes on board won't it!

Fuzz Burner

27th Jun 2014, 09:27

But that's the Met for you

Yeah, why would you want a thorough selection process when all the TFO does is 'waggle' a camera around. Anyone can do that, and what do the Met know about police aviation anyway!

Wagging Finger

27th Jun 2014, 19:59

and what do the Met know about police aviation anyway!

As a statement, that's quite spot on!:ok::E

MightyGem

28th Jun 2014, 18:09

In the last year, Suffolk Constabulary paid £800,000
That's good to know. Validates the answer to my FOI request. :)

SilsoeSid

29th Jun 2014, 09:14

My, how quickly things change.
Hangar not big enough to take a 145, standby for the next stage of cutbacks.

Art of flight

29th Jun 2014, 09:56

perhaps mister Passmore could spare half an hour to speak to the crews of the 'Suffolk' helicopter and the ops room staff to gain a perspective of why an aircraft that regularly flew 800 hours a year for 'his' force is doing half that. Could it be it's normally deployed in one of the 5 counties that surround Suffolk and further afield when it's required in Suffolk, so the calls have just stopped coming in.....same in Cambs etc....etc....

Guess there's no ideal model when money's tight. The old system was great for response when the aircraft was sat at base waiting, now it's 50 miles away and running out of fuel when the call comes in it's a different type of response.

ShyTorque

29th Jun 2014, 13:28

It's no surprise (once the bean counters' smoke and mirrors are removed) that if assets are moved further away and spread more thinly, the effective utilisation can only decrease.

Police Aviation works on a reactive, call-out basis so speed of response is of the essence. If the reaction time is unacceptable, the job is often lost.

Which is what everyone who knew the job and had a modicum of common sense was saying before this nonsensical NPAS charade began.

As I wrote years ago, people made a career by introducing Police Aviation as a way of saving police and tax-payers' money. With NPAS, others have made their careers by phasing it out.

As an ex-police chief pilot, I think what has happened to a system that worked extremely well, and provided very good value for money, is very sad.

J.A.F.O.

29th Jun 2014, 14:22

Shy - How right you are but, as Art said, there's no ideal model when money's tight.

Art, you're probably right about the aircraft being deployed elsewhere or, perhaps, there isn't an aircraft based locally at all at the times and places it's needed.

Cabby

29th Jun 2014, 15:33

It would appear that the West Yorkshire force is surrounded by NPAS bases, where as places like Scotland have only one airframe to cover the whole of Scotland? A bit like the Wales setup I believe. Stand corrected if I'm wrong.
Now I wonder why that is?
Is it because West Yorkshire are supposed to be in control of this train set or they need air cover more than others?
Why do the Met need 145's compared to other units?

ShyTorque

29th Jun 2014, 17:10

J.A.F.O.
Shy - How right you are but, as Art said, there's no ideal model when money's tight.

But money is being wasted somewhere, the NPAS system is soon proving to be less effective, albeit for the same money being taken from some individual Police forces. At least this appears to be so, according to the Suffolk report above.

So if Suffolk are getting fewer hours flown, is any other force gaining those hours, or are they just "lost" in the system because it cannot provide them?
If the latter is true, this is proving to be one almighty Police Farce.

J.A.F.O.

29th Jun 2014, 19:53

Shy, I don't know the numbers (does anyone?) but I can't disagree with you and from the odd reports that you see in the press, such as the Suffolk one you mentioned, it does seem as though there are forces who are paying 3/4 of the money for 1/2 the service.

As I say, that's only what I've picked up from the press, I am not involved with NPAS and don't know any of the details. It would be very interesting to find out, though.

As you said in your earlier post, it does look a little as though all of the nay-sayers and doom-mongers may just have known what they were talking about after all.

MightyGem

29th Jun 2014, 19:54

I've got some numbers coming in with regards to costs before and after joining NPAS. I'll post them when they're complete.

But so far...Derbyshire should be fairly happy, paying £531,500 for 400hrs for this FY rather than £822,600 for 375hrs but Devon and Cornwall are now paying £1,673,000 for 850hrs rather than £1,379,610 for a 1000.

tigerfish

30th Jun 2014, 07:46

J.A.F.O, spot on! (Yes I'm still here, getting a bit wrinkly now). This is exactly the scenario we predicted a few years ago when NPAS was set up, deliberately ignoring all of the experience we were able to offer.

Then most forces were putting in around 1,000 hrs per year, way over the totals today. But then we were effective. Taking prisoners and having an effect on crime. Cover was rapid and a Police officer in trouble on the ground could expect support in quick time. Evidential photographs were taken on return flights to assist court cases. Today none of that can be relied upon so the number of requests has plummeted.

This is a classic case of the Accountants knowing the cost of everything and the value of nothing!

And to those of you who promote the minimalist training given today I say this, - When the tool that you use, the helicopter is valued at...... Do you really want to risk not getting the best out of it by failing to train your crews properly?

Tigerfish, - Still out there, and still listening to what is going on. Deeply saddened by some attitudes, but that is what was always going to happen when NPAS was given the go ahead in the way that it was!:ugh:

SilsoeSid

30th Jun 2014, 08:21

At the moment forces are asked how many hours they would like. How long do we really think that will that last?

Immediate savings of £15 mill can be made by cutting 7,500 flying hours over the fleet. You know what's coming next, cut the yearly flying rate by an average of 300hrs per airframe and there you have it! However, cut 3 units and you can have NPAS's £15 mill savings per year sorted in perpetuity with one fell swoop. Bean counters happy, remit has been fulfilled.

Expect a few shocks soon :eek: :ooh: :{

Cabby

4th Jul 2014, 10:28

NPAS news in this months PAN edition.

The Flight safety section has a quote from NPAS's Oliver Dinsmore regarding the very close air miss involving an NPAS 135 over Liverpool.

http://www.policeaviationnews.com/Acrobat/219PANJuly2014.pdf

Flarechecklevel

4th Jul 2014, 11:51

From the latest edition .....

"As has been stated before in this publication the people making the decisions and signing the contracts are not the ones with the slightest personal expertise in any operational aspects of police air support.
In the first instance this is all driven by profit and loss, it will get worse before it gets better."

Sad state of affairs .....

Also, I have it on first hand authority that the Met have NOT signed the agreement yet.

FCL

SilsoeSid

4th Jul 2014, 18:40

REVEALED: Major decline in helicopter flying hours searching for criminals and missing as Cambridgeshire police save cash. (http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/News/REVEALED-Helicopter-flying-hours-searching-for-criminals-and-missing-plummets-to-save-Cambridgeshire-force-cash-20140703051147.htm)

Ian Whitehouse, NPAS Chief Operating Officer, said: “It is noted that aircraft requests for the region are down, however; operational commanders within NPAS and local police commanders are in regular contact to ensure that the service provided is effective and that we maximise the use of air assets.

Requests are down!
That's the kind of statement that reflects the rumblings out there that it's not worth asking for an ac any more because, along with other popular phrases, 'it'll be too long before it gets here, so there's simply no point'.

Pre NPAS 627 hours / £1.2 mill; Under NPAS 500 hrs / £480k
Pre NAPAS £1913 p/hr; Under NPAS £960 p/hr

<50% saving, per hour! Pretty good, but what is the reality behind it all :suspect:

"• NPAS will deliver a more cost effective service balancing the need to save money against the need to ensure the police service has a quickly deployable asset that can be used to tackle crime and protect the public."

J.A.F.O.

4th Jul 2014, 19:13

I find myself in agreement with a great deal of what is written in PAN but to suggest that the police officers in the Met have had a unique level of access to and appreciation of air support is, at best, disingenuous. To say that it is probably unique in Europe is either stunningly ill-informed or scathingly insulting.

Having said that, his assessment of NPAS seems quite comprehensive and reasoned.

ROTORVATION

4th Jul 2014, 20:31

Hi everyone,

Would anyone out there be able to give a best guess as to what it costs the Met Police to keep Lippitts hill operational?

I'm not talking about staffing level/wages, fuel or maintenance costs. I am more interested in the actual yearly cost to operate / maintain the buildings / hangars?

Thanks

RV

MightyGem

5th Jul 2014, 19:08

I find myself in agreement with a great deal of what is written in PAN but to suggest that the police officers in the Met have had a unique level of access to and appreciation of air support is, at best, disingenuous. To say that it is probably unique in Europe is either stunningly ill-informed or scathingly insulting.
My thoughts exactly. I think that every force that had Air Support prior to NPAS was doing that.

SilsoeSid

6th Jul 2014, 18:17

Cabby, you naughty so & so, google NPAS Hitler and it's #1 on the list. It's ok to link to, it's the creation of any more anti-NPAS propaganda that will set heads rolling so we've been warned :rolleyes:

Rumour has it that one 145 will go to W.Yorks, one was going to go to a unit in the Midlands but their hangar is too small, so N.Wales is on for the second with the third staying at Lippitts.

Happy Days :cool:

SilsoeSid

6th Jul 2014, 20:32

I think that's what is in mind in the bigger plan for the future of NPAS.

With the civil aid type jobs in winter and the coastline & hill rescues, supplementary to the Valley unit, there will also be a very useful unit in close proximity to Liverpool and Manchester for any firearms troop lift type jobs that may occur throughout the region. Likewise for the North East with the 145 in host force land. Para military Ops as seen in Europe may well be coming our way!

Despite the views of others, the snowball that we know as NPAS seems to keep on rolling. 145 redistribution, fixed wing, drones/quadrocopters, integrated air ambulance tasking, para military capabilities, it all seems to be a policy of you have to spend in order to save.

The video was shown at the last great meet, it is in the public domain, so it is ok to still post it;

Hitler finds out about National Police Air Service (NPAS) - YouTube (http://youtu.be/a88Rc4RhQJk)

SilsoeSid

6th Jul 2014, 20:52

Anyone mention overtime?

Hitler reflects on cuts to the Police overtime budget (http://youtu.be/E32YWMdrXKQ)

published in Feb 2013 so before the head roll amnesty :ok:

tigerfish

6th Jul 2014, 23:36

I guess that the only way to deal with this disaster is to make light of it, but I am near to tears!
When I think back to where we were just 10 years ago it really hurts. We led the developed world in effective air cover. Most counties shared cover with their neighbour. Time on scene at most incidents was way under 20 minutes, arrest rates were high and morale of the guys in the ground high too because they knew that they only had to ask.
The courts had a ready supply of photographic evidence and as a crime prevention tool we were highly effective. Despite what the Politicoes say today cross border co-operation was high and neighbouring units covered for down time.
Then came along Hogan Howe and Alex Marshall and it all went to rat **** in a fairly short order.
Now Police officers are learning Political half truths to save their careers and trotting out ridiculous rubbish about how cost effective this mess is. They should be ashamed.
As I said many years ago, "Guys, - never forget where the fault lies. it is with Hogan Howe and Alex Marshall. They played the Political Cow Tow game and we all lost!"
My time is done, Nearly 70 now, but still I have the pride to say "We got it about right". The Ram raiders and the Joy riders and the muggers had a nasty shock, and we managed to hold the line for a goodly time.
Its a pity that in the fullness of time we too were mugged by that pair!
tigerfish

RichiePAO

7th Jul 2014, 06:45

Have to agree TF.
On a recent night shift in the local bazaar I was involved in a 27 min long pursuit....didn't occur too late at night and it stayed conveniently in the same town....the nearest aircraft arrived just at the time the vehicle was stopped and occupants arrested.......
27 mins........
When I worked for the local ASU we would have been on scene in 10....

MightyGem

8th Jul 2014, 19:22

If anyone wants to get something off their chest, then feel free to do it via a PM to me and I'll post it. As I'm now retired, my head can't roll. :ok:

SilsoeSid

9th Jul 2014, 14:29

Anyone know the purpose of the flight test during a TFO/BM selection process?

MightyGem

9th Jul 2014, 16:13

We used to use it for potential Observers just to see how they coped being in the air: ie, did they know where they were, how to get to places and how did they cope with a few, ahem, aerobatics. We had more than one who professed to being uncomfortable in the air.

airpolice

9th Jul 2014, 18:23

Gem, I was never sick, but JC did his best to find my limits.

Given how long I've been seeing this stuff, from up close, I can only say that TigerFish is bang on the button there.

However, he who pays the piper calls the tune.

The troops at the sharp end are no longer paid to do what they did in the good old days, they are paid to turn up at the jobs they can afford to attend.

That's how it is.

As for Bernard, he was asked to do a job, and he has done it rather well I think. It's a great shame that anyone was asked to do it, but he has achieved what he set out to do.

jayteeto

9th Jul 2014, 21:10

If it wasn't Bernard HH, it would have been someone else. You have to stand out from the crowd to get the Met, I personally think he was a good man for the job. Despite being a total political animal and churning out targets, he still sees catching criminals as being very important................. Unlike most CCs, they just want to meet the targets, the end

Cabby

12th Jul 2014, 14:08

PCSO Vince should pass the fitness test as the next observer/TFO ;)
BEING A PCSO - POLICE COMMUNITY SUPPORT OFFICER - YouTube

Could G4S be inline to be NPAS overtime employees?
Hitler reflects on cuts to the Police overtime budget - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E32YWMdrXKQ&feature=youtu.be)

Fuzz Burner

12th Jul 2014, 14:11

Cabby, don't believe all that you hear. Noise complaints did not increase with the 145s. In fact as they have a longer endurance it means less movements from/to the base.
145s were chosen as the Met have certain roles and responsibilities on top of the 'normal' police tasks performed by most ASUs.

airpolice

12th Jul 2014, 17:45

Cabby,

Fuzz should have written "Had some responsibilities"

Fuzz Burner

12th Jul 2014, 18:48

airpolice......is that right? I assume you're in the know.

tigerfish

13th Jul 2014, 09:28

The fact that the hours have reduced still further, is a direct result in the slump in confidence of those on the ground, that the aircraft will be able to assist them anymore.

In the days when when a call for overhead cover resulted in a quick response, it was effective. Morale and condidence grew. But today in the knowledge that you will be waiting for ages even if it comes at all, no one bothers anymore.

Its what HH and AM wanted and its what you got.

NPAS was always the correct way forward, its just the way that it was done that was wrong.
TF

Art of flight

13th Jul 2014, 09:46

IMHO, it's the lack of money that's at the very heart of this.

The dream of a national joined up service, was a good one, just that when forces were awash with cheap Home Office money the CCs were never going to give up any part of their little empires (and more than a few saw co-operation as a sign of weakness), so the dream would remain just that.

Once the money stopped flowing, the 'dream' became easy to push through as the CCs could then blame others for what has ensued.

Those still toiling at the sharp end each night are between a rock and a hard place, spread so thin, it's no wonder big gaps in capability happen, and then we have people who still think police aircraft have nothing better to do than just launch after midnight on a whim for the fun of making noise!

Here's my thanks on record for those that are still doing it, despite the circumstances.

J.A.F.O.

13th Jul 2014, 21:29

Art, I too am grateful to those who still do it but I'm not convinced that lack of money is at the heart of it.

Flarechecklevel

14th Jul 2014, 15:56

CABBY.

The Met aren't getting rid of it's 145's. NPAS is taking them over and THEY are getting rid of them.

The Met spent years researching and procuring these machines for a reason. That reason is now defunct and money has taken over.

FCL

Sloppy Link

14th Jul 2014, 17:16

NPAS aren't getting rid of them, they're redistributing the asset(s).

Flarechecklevel

14th Jul 2014, 19:52

So these re distributed assets will be fully utilised by NPAS?
Not a chance ...they'll be sat idle to save money while NPAS claim them as part of their 'working fleet'.

Sloppy Link

14th Jul 2014, 21:23

Base A flies x hours per year in an aircraft that costs y per hour.
Base B flies x+ hours per year in an aircraft that costs y+ per hour.

Option 1. Do nothing. Costs remain due to Base B flying rate.

Option 2. Close Base B. Unacceptable for operational and public perception reasons.

Option 3. Swap the aircraft around. Base B. Retains flying rate at a reduced cost, Base A retains flying rate at a higher but not as high cost. Equation now reads.....

Base A flies x hours per year in an aircraft that costs y+ per hour.
Base B flies x+ hours per year in an aircraft that costs y per hour.

It's called the laws of compensating reduction.

Simples

T F O

15th Jul 2014, 04:53

Tigerfish,

your recent posts are inaccurate and bordering on insulting to the hardworking TFO's and pilots working within NPAS.
Your implying we don't have an effect on crime and are incapable of catching criminals.
You are implying the TFO's are not trained properly and are incapable of getting the best from the aircraft.
Your implying we don't sit listening to the radios and scanning the logs looking for jobs and running out to the aircraft and the earliest opportunity.
Your implying that when my friends and colleagues are in trouble I can't be trusted to get to them as soon as possible to help them and make a difference.
You seem to think that we are incapable of providing the courts with photographic evidence when required yet the cameras we use are more capable than ever and if needs be the officer can have a digital image sent to them within minutes of landing or in the near future emailed directly from the aircraft.
In your day it was wet film!
You say that since NPAS the number of requests we get has plummeted but I've seen no evidence of this in the area I work. In fact the area as a whole gets a better service than ever.

Do you really think you cured ram raiding and joy riding?
I think it's more to do with concrete bollards and the fact you can't start a modern car with a screwdriver but hey what do I know I'm only a TFO!

I understand it's the job of a retired officer to swing the lamp and I'm sure I will get there one day but for now please think a bit harder before putting down the people you used to work alongside who are doing their best for the people they serve.

T F O

SilsoeSid

15th Jul 2014, 08:57

I think it's more to do with concrete bollards and the fact you can't start a modern car with a screwdriver but hey what do I know I'm only a TFO!

Just what do you know indeed!?

I have one of them thar modern cars and because of the rise in thefts of so called 'modern ignition system'd unstealable without the keys vehicles', I am now the proud owner of a brand new crooklock that is virtually the same, apart from a Gucci flashing LED, that I had for on my Honda civic back in the 80's.

It's a bit if a wake up call and an eye opener when you're chasing 'your car' that has been taken without keys :eek:

But what do I know, I'm only a pylut :cool:

J.A.F.O.

15th Jul 2014, 16:40

Sloppy - You missed Option 4, which is: Do Option 2 anyway and see how long you can get away with it for.

T F O - The contraction of you are is you're, the apostrophe in TFO's is only required if you are indicating possession by the TFO. Hope that helps.

Sloppy Link

15th Jul 2014, 16:42

JAFO, yep, that'll be the next round.

J.A.F.O.

15th Jul 2014, 17:05

Funny, I thought it was the first.

Sloppy Link

15th Jul 2014, 20:14

It was. When they reinvent the wheel, it'll be the next round......

SilsoeSid

15th Jul 2014, 20:25

... the apostrophe in TFO's is only required if you are indicating possession by the TFO.
:hmm:

'The TFO has had a busy day today', can be written as; 'The TFO's had a busy day today'. The apostrophe is showing ommission.

Written without the apostrophe, 'The TFOs had a busy day today', indicates that many TFOs have had a busy day today.

I think that's correct, however this pylut has had a busy evening so far :)

J.A.F.O.

15th Jul 2014, 21:29

You're right, Sid; your meaning may not be entirely clear but you'd be spot on.

To say: "the TFO's are not trained", though, would be incorrect, because you wouldn't be trying to say: "the TFO has are not trained" or even "the TFO is are not trained".

tigerfish

15th Jul 2014, 23:48

TFO,

You miss my point entirely. I have no doubt that you work very hard indeed and do have all the skills and abilities that we honed in the 80's and 90's.
I am not that far out of date because was still involved as late as 2011 in ensuring that you got the best equipement that we could devise.
But the fact is that you are too thinly spread. You have to travel too far too often to be truly effective.
It was our mantra that to secure the services of your local Air Operations unit should be no more difficult than calling for the dog or for scenes of crime.

Dont ever accuse me of not fighting for all my worth for the skills and reputation of the Police air Observer. Note I said "Police" for I suspect you might not be!

In the meantime I will leave it to others who know me to sit in judgement!
TF

SilsoeSid

16th Jul 2014, 00:12

JAFO, isn't it clear? The apostrophe can indicate possesion or ommission but with a noun cannot accompany a plural.

Possesion, The TFO's rubbish - Rubbish belonging to the TFO.
Ommission, The TFO's rubbish - The TFO is rubbish.
Plural, The TFOs rubbish - Collective rubbish belonging to many TFOs.

You are correct in your last post, however you are wrong by previously saying, "the apostrophe in TFO's is only required if you are indicating possession by the TFO".

(all of our TFOs are trained, as are all of our TFOs' pyluts :ok: )

J.A.F.O.

16th Jul 2014, 17:20

Sid - I fear we may have been sidetracked a little here but I meant that your original 'The TFO has had a busy day today' is the preferred option to the equally correct 'The TFO's had a busy day today'.

I understand how to use an apostrophe and apologise for not including all possible uses of the apostrophe in a post on an internet forum.

Your plural is incorrect, it would be the TFOs' rubbish; your example is meaningless.

You see the pilots' mirror would mean the mirror belonging to two or more pilots; the pilot's mirror would mean the mirror belonging to just one pilot; and the pilot's able to pick an argument with a mirror would mean someone was talking about you.

You, of course, also forgot contraction as a place where an apostrophe may be used.

You may like to know that it is possession, not possesion; and it is omission, not ommission.

1helicopterppl

16th Jul 2014, 19:14

I see NPAS are now re painting the GMP Heli, from the bumble bee yellow & black to standard Police scheme....we also have the ludicrous situation of Regional Police machines operating outside their area, eg SURY in Devon, DCPB in Glos & two of the Met 145's to be relocated outside Greater London& replaced by 'Fleet' 135's.....why don't they re-register the whole fleet ? G-NPAA-Z, the flagship could be G-NPAS, eee by gum it's got to be the West Yorkshire machine !

SilsoeSid

16th Jul 2014, 19:16

Thanks for that JAFO, I'm sure we are all now much more enlightened and thanks for highlighting the spool chucking issue.

You may like to know that it is possible and not possilble :D

SilsoeSid

16th Jul 2014, 19:31

It costs £150 to reserve a registration for a period of 6 months.
Registration Forms and Fees | Aircraft Register | Operations and Safety (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx/default.aspx?catid=122&pagetype=90&pageid=138)

Until the process of registrering the NPAS ac begins, this will cost £3,750 every 6 months to prevent someone getting in there first. Then there's the charge per airframe of an out of sequence registration of £300, another £45,000. No doubt the same day service will be used so there's another £2,625.

Peanuts, just cut 25 flying hours somewhere, put it down to initial costs in the set up budget and Bob is the brother of one of your parents :ooh:

J.A.F.O.

16th Jul 2014, 19:45

Sid, I knew that it was possible and not possilble; hence my use of the word possible and not possilble in my unedited post above.

Is eyesight still checked in your annual medical?

SilsoeSid

16th Jul 2014, 22:21

Is eyesight still checked in your annual medical?

Apart from the medical being every 6 months, is that question gramatikly correkt?

Self loading bear

26th Jul 2014, 12:20

I assume with "Multi tasters" you mean omnivores?
Always tought the Americains had a taste for meat and are therefore presumably carnivores?
SLB

Nail The Dream

27th Jul 2014, 10:01

If the American police operators manage with 2 crew why do the UK need a crew of 3? 2 passengers and pilot?

Maybe because on a pursuit ( or other high profile incident ) the American Airborne Law Enforcement Agencies have the "luxury"
of being accompanied by a fleet of News Choppers to back them up with imagery and even directing troops on the ground at times,
plus if they do have to land to get "Hands On", the pilots are sworn Police Officers :rolleyes:

Oh, and they also only have one engine to fly, so only half the workload :E

Nail

Gas Generator

27th Jul 2014, 10:05

I believe you only have to look at the crash stats for the USA to answer this one.

The wheel is being reinvented. :cool:

Filtre de fadaises

6th Aug 2014, 14:24

Sid (16 Jul) - not sure where the rumour to re-register the fleet comes from but, if true, it would surely be yet another waste of public money? That old expression "many pennies make a pound" would appear to have been forgotten in some circles. By all means use a new Reg when NEW airframes come on line, if it ever happens . . .

Whilst there may well be movement in the airframes round the country to more effectively balance the hours flown, IMHO removing the last vestiges of an illustrious history by overprinting faithful registrations would seem to be the last egotistical straw. The hours balancing alone will surely test the mettle of the NPAS Ops Dept. depending on whether they want to ensure that all the aircraft get become "worn out" at the same time, whereupon helicopters will suddenly have become too expensive to replace . . . starts another discussion on its own, of course!

Sloppy Link

6th Aug 2014, 17:18

There's an Ops Department?

RotorPig

6th Aug 2014, 20:35

Knowing NPAS I think you'll find its been rebranded, re-registered to a OOP's [by gum] Department at a significant saving!!!!:}

Nail The Dream

7th Aug 2014, 07:46

at a significant saving!!!!

But nowhere near as "efficient" / "effective" :ugh:

Nail

Nail The Dream

7th Aug 2014, 12:34

Heard a rumour at an airfield not far from London .....

Maybe that Rumour was an intention to drop down to 1 Police Officer, and a "Civillian" TFO ........

West Yorkshire Police Staffc Jobs (http://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/recruitment/police-staff-jobs)

Tactical Flight Officer
National Police Air Service (NPAS)
Various Locations
Salary £24,036 - £25,704
Ref: XPC037
Closing date: 24 August 2014

West Yorkshire Police is the lead body in a national collaboration of Home Office Forces delivering air support across England and Wales as the National Police Air Service (NPAS). These are exciting opportunities for the right people to make a significant contribution to the first national policing service. It is a chance to make a difference to the communities served by the Police throughout England and Wales, making them safe and feeling safer through the direction, development and delivery of the police capability from the air.

As part of our commitment to delivering a world-class service we are now looking to recruit Tactical Flight Officers within NPAS at various locations nationally.

NPAS was formed in October 2012 and provides all air support services without force boundaries. Because of this, aircraft and staff are required to operate across several force areas.

In these new and exciting opportunities you will perform Police TFO duties, acting as flight crew, navigators and systems operators in Police aircraft, providing support to officers on the ground, assisting the pilot and providing advice and expertise to users.

The payscale is the same as for a "Multimedia Production Officer"
( Someone who produces PowerPoint presentations for Court use in "complex" trials :oh:

Nail

misterbonkers

7th Aug 2014, 16:42

Perhaps to ensure they don't crash as often? Perhaps because the workload and manner in which they operate is different from the states? Perhaps because some pilots don't help to wash the aircraft and you can't use ladders unsupervised?

It is a different world to most flying roles. Up to 7 radios to monitor, a camera to operate, a night sun to operate, a pilot to liaise with, and incident notes to scribe. Don't forget to hit record. Don't forget to switch on, lower and RETRACT the downlink.

And let's not forget - 2 sets of eyes on screens are better than one.

Has anyone bothered to check how many crewmembers the Maryland police and NYPD operate with?

misterbonkers

7th Aug 2014, 16:48

As for registrations and rumour control, the following are currently on retention with the CAA;

GCOPS
GCOPZ
GCOPA
GFUZZ
GFILF
GFIVO
GZCAR
GPLOD
GSWAG
GROBA
GCUFF
GJAIL
GOASU
GNIKD

Much better than the geographical ones!

SilsoeSid

8th Aug 2014, 06:00

Filtre de fadaises Sid (16 Jul) - not sure where the rumour to re-register the fleet comes from but,

May I suggest you read the post by 1helicopterppl on the same date :rolleyes:
If you're trying to moderate the NPAS series of threads, judging by your 'handle', at least have the decency to read them :=

J.A.F.O.

8th Aug 2014, 18:12

Salary £24,036 - £25,704 Is that plus allowances?

PANews

8th Aug 2014, 19:53

As is often the case with information and damned lies there is no 'standard' police crew of two in the USA.

In many states [Texas for one] the crew is the driver and he picks up his eyes from some greenhorn cop on the ground. The basis of that may have been under-performing aircraft types, its easier to deliver a distance with only one on board, anyway they look to alter that and move up to two crew because the system does not work too well and the newer aircraft perform better.

In a large number of states [ok, the largest group] there are two people up front. Either a civvie driver and a TFO, or a sworn pilot and a TFO, or two pilots operating turn about as pilot or TFO. They look to alter that and move up to three crew when they can and the money allows because many of them look up to UK policing which is still seen as pretty good despite the current 'difficulties.'

A few states have a 'standard' crew of three, two pilots and a TFO.

And then there is Europe...... why does no one mention Europe and take a wholly different set of rules [as in the USA] on which to base the critique?

Numerically most US aircraft are pretty much incapable of carrying a complement of three.... the OH-6 and OH-58 are getting to be older than me [and that takes some doing] but they still hold sway and push US crewing towards "single pilot delivery to scene ....."

SilsoeSid

19th Aug 2014, 08:03

We've had the thread 'Prince William for Air Ambulance', should there be another thread for 'Prince Harry for PNAS', or shall we leave this rumour & discussion for here?

Starter for 10;
With 3 more bases closing, how will PH be 'recruited' bearing in mind the shedfull of redundancies coming to a region near you soon?

Nail The Dream

19th Aug 2014, 10:09

Go on then Sid - which three bases ?

Are there any NPAS Pilot vacancies at the moment ?

If not then I suppose PH could apply for one of the TFO posts
until a Pilot vacancy popped up, but he would have to go through
the TFO Selection procedure first, and even though he's obviously highly skilled,
passing the Flight Test isn't always a "given" ( :rolleyes: )

Only 5 days left for him ( or anyone else ) to apply for one of those vacancies !

Nail

SilsoeSid

19th Aug 2014, 15:25

Nail;
Are there any NPAS Pilot vacancies at the moment ?

As it happens, and the reason why this topic is rising, yes there are!

Police Staff Jobs | West Yorkshire Police (http://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/recruitment/police-staff-jobs)

POLICE/HEMS HELICOPTER PILOTS
THE NATIONAL POLICE AIR SERVICE (NPAS)
Vacancies Nationwide – Salary – Competitive
Closing Date: 7 September 2014
Ref XPC039

As part of its commitment to delivering the National Police Air Service (NPAS), West Yorkshire Police is looking to recruit police line pilots to be based at various locations throughout England and Wales.

This is an early opportunity to provide police air support to operational incidents across your Region.

Applicants should be aware that it is not always possible to carry out adequate security checks on persons who have not been resident within the UK for the last three years. Therefore, where this applies, applicants may be refused on the grounds that is was not possible to vet them to the appropriate standard.

In addition to completion of the e-application process, please email your CV, including a full breakdown of flying experience and hours to [email protected] quoting reference XPC039

Cabby

25th Aug 2014, 19:45

With the recent cost savings being discussed by the Home Office, I've always wondered why NPAS don't use the same sites which some traffic units operate from if they are rural and not in town centres.

How many forces have traffic or dog/marine units away from built up areas? I bet they are stood empty most of the time especially at night.

Think of the savings which could be made. Surely it would save money on NPAS rent on crew accommodation, and allow for better pilot wages to be paid instead. Notice I said pilots ;)

PANews

25th Aug 2014, 20:30

NPAS are in a number of places like that - Carr Gate Wakefield for the FORMER West Yorkshire aircraft for a start.

But NPAS is not a police force resource.... well not anymore. It is NPAS. So while it may stay where is is already placed it will not be necessarily welcome taking space and creating complaints at a previously unused location.

Airfields, particularly underused RAF sites are a good mix of wide open spaces and aviation knowledge on the part of the host. Most traffic units I am aware of are cramped in pure aviation terms and the public have a horrid habit of buying houses right next door.

ShyTorque

25th Aug 2014, 20:42

With regard to the advert above. "Competitive salary" is mentioned. Compared with what, bearing in mind that there is now no competition as far as employment of police pilots is concerned?

R22 HEAVY

30th Aug 2014, 00:13

Competition, Air Ambo, Off-Shore, Corporate, Wind Turbines (did you not see the ad?) some of us do have IRs, overseas work if your not fussed about staying were the sun never shines.

SilsoeSid

30th Aug 2014, 12:10

http://i4.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/incoming/article7661339.ece/alternates/s615/GMP-Pride.jpg

Greater Manchester Police are feeling the love for Pride this year and have decorated the force's helicopter with rainbow colours - or have they?!

As well as the helicopter, which the NPAS team posted a picture of on their Twitter account sporting it's new 'paint job' just for today, GMP have an actual Pride police car in today's parade bearing the rainbow flag.

Earlier this week PCC Tony Lloyd expressed the force's support for Pride.

This year GMP officers will be wearing t-shirts with the slogan "Love shouldn't hurt" as part of theoretical campaign supporting people around the issues of domestic abuse.

Greater Manchester Police give helicopter rainbow makeover for Pride - Manchester Evening News (http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/greater-manchester-police-give-helicopter-7661457)

MightyGem

30th Aug 2014, 20:17

or have they?!
More likely as this was taken at Barton on the 24 Aug:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bv1NFfACAAIZFlC.jpg:large

From NPAS Barton's Twitter page.

Filtre de fadaises

30th Aug 2014, 20:19

Nice one - excellent photography skills demonstrated! :ok: (the pride one, that is)

Nail The Dream

1st Sep 2014, 18:22

Love shouldn't hurt

If it does then you're probably not doing it right :uhoh:

Nail

Wagging Finger

2nd Sep 2014, 05:55

If Putin kicks off one of the last things I'm going to be worried about is how much it costs to run a 135 compared with a 902, I'll be worried about the cost of fuel in my own car or the cost of heating my home.
Let's not forget the forty odd years we spent staring at the 'soviets' over the Fulda Gap. This could get nasty.:sad:

MightyGem

2nd Sep 2014, 19:16

Back in July 2013, Coconutty asked:
It think it will be VERY interesting to find out, once everyone has joined NPAS,
by way of Freedom of Interest Requests, just how much each force is paying for NPAS,
and for how many hours cover, and compare this with what was being paid and the hours flown pre-NPAS

I published costs for the North West earlier in the year. Here's the full hit. Savings? What savings! Well more or less.

I asked each Force, under the FOI act, what was their total budget for Air Support in the last full financial year before they joined NPAS, and what was their total contribution to NPAS for Air Support for this current financial year.

For the likes of Cambridgeshire and Hampshire, I asked them for their budget for the last financial year before they closed their ASUs.

As it’s a spreadsheet and I took the post NPAS payment from the pre NPAS payment, savings are in green, and overspends are in red(well, more pink really). So, we seem to have a total nationwide saving of £3.6 million. A long, long way from the advertised £15 million.

Most Forces replied well within the 20 working days, a couple needed a gentle reminder, but after 3 months Sussex still can’t tell me what they were paying prior to joining NPAS, so I guess they have no idea whether they are getting a good deal or not. For that reason I’ve put them as paying the same.

Some Forces appear to have made large savings, with North Wales coming out best by saving £737,560. How on earth are they managing to get by without all that extra cash? However, Devon and Cornwall are paying an extra £293,390 for 150 less hours.

Of all the Forces asked only Merseyside couldn’t tell me how much they were paying NPAS. They said that they didn’t hold the information for cost or hours. So, they have no idea what they are getting, or how much they are paying for it! Perhaps this apparent lack of interest explains why they were happy for their ASU to be shut down without making a fuss like S Yorks did. I had to get their current budget from W Yorks/NPAS.

West Mercia told me that their pre NPAS cost of £564,000 didn’t include the costs of the bobbies. On a further request they said that the cost for them was £1,668,204. That would put their budget over £2M, but is not reflected in the post NPAS costs. Nor is it reflected in the budgets of other Units.

West Midlands also said that they receive £310,000 a year from NPAS for the transfer of their aircraft to NPAS. So, can we assume that the other Forces who still have their own aicraft are also receiving similar payments? If so, surely that is going to reduce the meagre savings even further?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/MightyGem/NPASCosts1_zpsa2bf206f.png
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/MightyGem/NPASCosts2_zps4c5434b0.png

MightyGem

2nd Sep 2014, 19:19

Given the number of tales of single crewing(and experiencing same), I asked West Yorks/NPAS two questions under the FOI:

1) On a Base by Base basis, on how many occasions, during the period 1 Apr 13 to 31 Mar 14, were NPAS helicopters crewed by only a Pilot and one TFO, due to a second TFO being unavailable?

2) On a Base by Base basis, on how many occasions during the same period was a Base aircraft offline/unavailable due to a pilot being unavailable?

The word “occasions” was obviously a bit ambiguous given the different “occasions” in the results. By “occasions”, I meant shifts. And no, that is not my mistake; I was supplied with two sets of figures for Exeter.

Where Blank is recorded, this is because Bases had exceeded the 18 hours allowed for answering FOI questions.

Also, North Wales have been a bit sneaky in answering “Nil”. Their answer is technically correct, because they don’t fly with a single Observer. They cancel the shift, and from experience they have done that a lot in the past, and to quote a NW bobbie, “an awful lot lately”. So perhaps Barton are guilty of that as well.

Now, I don’t know what it was like elsewhere, but the only time in 15 years with Merseyside that I flew single crewed was when one of the bobbies looked so sweet asleep on the couch that we left him there. Mind you, we did wake him up with the skyshout outside the crewroom window when we got back!

As for lack of a pilot, if one of us went sick, given enough notice, Premiair would have a relief on the same day, or the next day at the latest, and covered many long term sickness cases. I suspect that this was the case with all Units that employed contract pilots. Obviously direct employment has it’s downside when you don’t have enough floaters.

Effective and efficient!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/MightyGem/NPASShiftsLost_zps4449c68b.png

SilsoeSid

3rd Sep 2014, 02:36

Interesting figures MG, I especially like the single TFO/No Pilot chart, however I notice that Benson and Wolverhampton aren't there. I wonder maybe if there was any particular reason PNAS didn't release their figures? :suspect:

Perhaps it may also be interesting to know how many shifts are also lost due to 'training' or 'attending open days' :E:ooh:

Coconutty

3rd Sep 2014, 07:49

Just popped back ( like I said I might ) to add :

"Interesting" figures indeed, especially as some of them are blatantly wrong !

Back in January 2009 I posted "I know of at least one Air Support Unit that has a budget of 1400 Hrs.... "

( http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/357157-west-yorkshire-police-helo-busiest-uk.html#post4635442 )

... which was a reference to West Midlands - who budgeted for up to 1400 Hours a year and, AFAIK,
continued with those hours up until joining NPAS, not the 1200 Hrs reported in this FOI request !

I would also question the £££'s quoted - pre NPAS I seem to recall someone mentioning
that pre NPAS the budget for those 1400 Hrs was nearer £1.7m, not £1.9m,
and I suspect that post NPAS it is probably now even higher than the figure quoted !

If so, then it would not look, on paper, as though there is a £148,800 "saving" for an extra 200 Hours flying time :ugh:

It would show an increase of £50,000 ( and likely more ) for the SAME number of flying hours,
making the service to West Midlands more expensive,
together with the more frequent lack of service during the Night shifts
when the a/c based at BHX is out of area servicing other forces that don't have a closer 24 hr Unit.

Makes me :mad: :yuk: !

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

MightyGem

3rd Sep 2014, 08:27

Benson and Wolverhampton aren't there.
Ooops, hadn't noticed that. Still, those are all the ones that were sent to me.

Coconutty

3rd Sep 2014, 09:13

... and are probably the figures being used as justifcation :ugh:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

Filtre de fadaises

3rd Sep 2014, 10:04

Don't forget the old adage "Lies, Damned Lies & Statistics" . . . to which, in this day & age, might be added "FOI requests"?

zorab64

3rd Sep 2014, 10:29

Well done MG for extracting some interesting figures, although it wouldn't surprise me if not all Forces calculate their expenditure in the same way.

I presume your figures are for pre-NPAS actual hours and post-NPAS contracted hours? If that's the case, it will be interesting to see (after a full year or so) how many of the Forces, certainly without in-county aircraft, actually get what they're paying for - and also how much service they actually received in comparison with the past. Sadly, a lot of data (Task time / Transit time) will likely have been lost from those bases that have closed and, although it should have been part of the original business case, it'd be a few years out of date.

MightyGem

3rd Sep 2014, 10:41

I presume your figures are for pre-NPAS actual hours and post-NPAS contracted hours?
I asked Forces for their pre NPAS costs, and how many hours did those cover, and for their contributions to NPAS for this year, and again how many hours did this cover.

how many of the Forces, certainly without in-county aircraft, actually get what they're paying for
Suffolk have already been in the news for complaining that they are not getting what they are paying for.

tigerfish

3rd Sep 2014, 20:12

Whatever way you bag it up and present it. NPAS is delivering a very sad and depleted service compared to that which was delivered by the individual forces in the years up to 2010.

And neither do I believe that the money saved is anything approaching that what the pundits promised.

A classic example if ever there was one, of "if it aint broke Don't fix it"

And before anyone comes back with the "NPAS was the only option other than closure" I would ask "Oh yes? And how hard did you personally fight to keep what you believed in?" How much dirt did you dig to show that their plans were flawed?

Never give up, and never forgive the Luddites

tigerfish

T F O

4th Sep 2014, 06:58

Coconutty do you think NPAS Birmingham should not be allowed to leave the city at night to support operations further afield?
It might be a less of a service for West Mids but it's an improvement for everywhere else.

jayteeto

4th Sep 2014, 14:57

23 shifts with no pilot in one year at Hawarden???
That is shocking

Coconutty

5th Sep 2014, 16:40

TFO,

"If" I were paying my Council Tax to Birmingham Council, or parked an expensive car in the West Midlands force area,
or had premises there - that might be subject to the type of criminal activity that West Midlands Police decided
were reason enough to extend their Air Support coverage to 24 hours MANY years ago, then YES I personally WOULD
want the aircraft to stay in the area ready to respond, and not be servicing another part of the Country that doesn't
directly affect me, and where the forces covering those areas didn't previously perceive any NEED for 24 hour Air Support,
other than in Life threatening situations, ( when there were Mutual Aid agreements in place to cover those sort of requests ).

However I don't live in the West Midlands force area, ( at the moment ), I don't pay any Council Tax to Birmingham Council,
and don't have any premises there that might get "ram raided", although I do park in their force area area occasionally :rolleyes: ,
so I am probably one of the ones that benefits from the former West Mids cab providing a service where I do live,
while the miscreants are free to plunder in Birmingham while they are doing so :ugh:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

SilsoeSid

8th Sep 2014, 22:08

The Emergency Exit Jettison (EEJ) training rig ... simply lost for words :eek:

On a lighter note while I still have a sense of humour; I'm sure this one should have had a different title :ooh:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=share&v=ItcedKDZF0E

RichiePAO

9th Sep 2014, 19:43

EEJ training rig!.......
When I was a boy I could plan my crews to assist engineers in removing windows every couple of years when the aircraft went in for the window seals to be replaced.
Even made a very professional video
Only cost was the diesel to get across to the maintenance facility......
Seem to work then....
Have the rules changed to demand the purchase of such a piece of kit?

MightyGem

10th Sep 2014, 20:18

23 shifts with no pilot in one year at Hawarden???
Worse than that, it was over 2 or 3 months when one of the pilots was off sick with no relief/floater available, plus one of the pilots refused to cancel his leave, when again there were no reliefs available. :mad: :mad:

airpolice

10th Sep 2014, 20:51

Dave,

I was worried that retirement might have been bad for you. I had visions of you missing the job and being bored.

You must be having so much fun being busy at last!

Watch out for men in grey suits, or black RangeRovers.

Ivor E Tower

10th Sep 2014, 20:56

Interesting section on NPAS and future costing

From April 2015 the NPAS objective is to establish new funding arrangements
introducing a standard pricing model with a fixed cost per hour of flying time. A paper
has been circulated to PCCs after discussion at the Strategic Governance Board on
19th June 2014. In that paper the cost per hour for WMP is likely to rise by
approximately 30% from the current £1200 per hour to a figure near £1600 per hour.
Although this is of concern, the fixed price per hour will ensure that the force is not
paying for hours that are not used.

http://www.westmidlands-pcc.gov.uk/media/346421/07-spcb-11-sep-14-acc-operations.pdf

Cabby

10th Sep 2014, 21:55

If a unit goes over its hours, how do NPAS know who to charge extra? How does that affect the DOC's?
Is there an NPAS chap who sits counting the minutes while airborne? Do individual forces pay for travelling time to the job, or just from their force border?
Or is it just down to the cop who writes the log and gives it 5 mins more or less each trip?
I'm surprised NPAS haven't fitted hour metres like the Robbo's ;)
What happens if a force goes over its allocated yearly hours? is it like lease cars and they have to pay triple the cost per mile when the crews fly past that limit?
Have NPAS employed their own time and motion chaps yet?
Before NPAS came about certain forces tried to find out what went on during a shift and crews had a choice of boxes to say what they did.
Ticking the 'problem solving box' always worked to pass the time in the old days :E
Curious how the latest bean counters work these days? Who checks them?
What happens if West Yorkshire say they don't want to be boss anymore....now there's a thought ;)

MightyGem

10th Sep 2014, 22:16

Or is it just down to the cop who writes the log and gives it 5 mins more or less each trip?
The TFOs have to account for every minute of the flight in the post flight log.

Do individual forces pay for travelling time to the job, or just from their force border?
They pay for travelling time, which can be a bit unfair at times. For example, the Hawarden cab can be on a job for Lancashire over Blackpool. They then get tasked for a job for Cheshire at Chester. Cheshire get billed for the 20 minutes or so that it takes to fly to Chester. However, if that job had come in 20 minutes later, just as the aircraft was about to land at Hawarden, Lancs would have paid for that transit time, and, Cheshire would only have had 2 or 3 minuets of transit time to pay for.

SilsoeSid

11th Sep 2014, 12:00

http://www.westmidlands-pcc.gov.uk/media/346421/07-spcb-11-sep-14-acc-operations.pdf

National Police Air Service (NPAS)

38. The transfer of the West Midlands Air Operations Unit to the National Police Air Service took effect from 2nd October 2013. Air support to the 9 force central region (West Midlands/East Midlands) is now provided from 4 bases located at Birmingham, Ripley, Husbands Bosworth and Halfpenny Green.

39. Superintendent Miles, Operations Department, has been identified as the force SPOC to oversee day to day service delivery and he also chairs the central region Operations Working Group which meets on a quarterly basis and comprises of strategic leads from each of the nine forces. Issues identified are addressed with the NPAS regional manager. The group is informed by data provided in the national monthly performance document which has recently been introduced.

40. ACC Frost from Northamptonshire remains as the Central Region ACPO lead on the Independent Assurance group (IAG) with Chief Constable Rhodes (Lincolnshire) and PCC Ron Ball (Warwickshire) representing the central region at the Strategic Governance Board.

41. The collaboration agreement for the number of flying hours was agreed based on force usage in pre-NPAS arrangements. The figure was set at 1400hrs per annum with a pro-rata figure of 700hrs for the period Oct 2013-March 2014. The cost to WMP for 1400hrs is paid in advance and is non-refundable even if the hours are not used.

42. The 1400hrs figure included flying time for routine maintenance/servicing and was based on deployment criteria that were more flexible than the current NPAS model. As such, WMP has seen a significant reduction in the number of flying hours used and in the availability of air support.

43. For the period Oct 2013-March 14, 67% of the allocated 700hrs were used with a shortfall of 241hrs. For this current year to 3rd August 2014, 387hrs (27% of allocation) have been used. Predicted underspend of hours is likely to be in the region of 250hrs. Of note is the fact that only 9 of the 36 force structure are predicted to use all of their flying hours. Similar forces to WMP including Greater Manchester Police, West Yorkshire Police and South Yorkshire Police are all predicted to see significant underspends. Many smaller forces are predicted to overspend on allocated hours but there is no cost recovery element in place due to the national service provision.

44. The reasons for the underspend in hours include limited availability at certain times of day, the grading/priority criteria set by NPAS, increased flying time to incidents resulting in cancellations and, as previously stated, an over-estimate of the need based on pre-NPAS demand for air support. The system is, however, providing greater resilience for high priority incidents where air support may not previously have been available if the WMP aircraft was grounded due to maintenance.

45. Superintendent Miles has implemented a number of measures to address the shortfall in hours in order to gain maximum value from the current contract.

46. In April 2015 the charging arrangements for forces will change to a process where 73% of the costs will be charged on a pay as fly basis with the remaining 27% being charged for fixed costs such staffing, maintenance, command/control and the aircraft. The smaller element will be charged per force based on the force’s size, likely deployment levels and access/availability to aircraft. Also, those forces not currently within the NPAS structure will have joined the collaboration by April 2015 with the Metropolitan Police Service joining in Oct 2014.

47. From April 2015 the NPAS objective is to establish new funding arrangements introducing a standard pricing model with a fixed cost per hour of flying time. A paper has been circulated to PCCs after discussion at the Strategic Governance Board on 19th June 2014. In that paper the cost per hour for WMP is likely to rise by approximately 30% from the current £1200 per hour to a figure near £1600 per hour. Although this is of concern, the fixed price per hour will ensure that the force is not paying for hours that are not used.

48. Further discussion at the strategic level and an ‘in force’ review of the level of air support that is required will take place before a decision is made regarding funding arrangements for 2015.

Nail The Dream

11th Sep 2014, 13:22

WMP has seen a significant reduction in the number of flying hours used
and in the availability of air support.

The phrases, "I wonder why that could be :rolleyes: ?" and,

"We told you so....." .... spring to mind :ugh:

Nail

airpolice

11th Sep 2014, 13:26

Am I understanding that properly?

If you don't ask for or it, or don't get to use it, no pliot, bad wx or a/c tech, then you lose what you paid....

But... if you manage to flog it to death you don't pay any extra?

Seems the initial budget figures certainly need to be revised. How did the gaffers not see that coming?

SilsoeSid

11th Sep 2014, 17:22

'National Police Air Service
What on Earth is going on?'
http://prezi.com/9cil8s7xr8sn/npas-aaa-presentation/

'NPAS in the SAR Environment'
http://prezi.com/zxhpg7ajdkbo/npas-in-the-sar-environmen/

UKNPAS
http://prezi.com/qurc4yfml8_6/national-police-air-service/

SilsoeSid

11th Sep 2014, 17:46

Latest NPAS News | West Yorkshire Police (http://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/about-us/national-police-air-service/latest-npas-news)

Friday, 5th September, 2014

SAS to provide 5,400 hours of yearly support for MD Explorer Aircraft

The National Police Air Service (NPAS) has awarded a five-year contract for airworthiness management, maintenance and parts to Specialist Aviation Services (SAS) for the 6 MD Explorer aircraft in the NPAS fleet.

"This single contract replaces the many and varied contracts individual forces had in place before the start of NPAS and means better value for money for the tax payer.

----------------------------------------------------------

Friday, 5th September, 2014

New Contract for Airbus Helicopters UK Limited

The National Police Air Service (NPAS) has awarded a five-year contract for airworthiness management, maintenance and parts to Airbus Helicopters UK Limited.

"This single contract replaces the many and varied contracts individual forces had in place before the start of NPAS and means better value for money for the tax payer.

----------------------------------------------------------

Tuesday, 3rd June, 2014

New Investment in NPAS Fleet

Brand new state-of-the-art camera and mission system equipment is being installed across a third of the National Police Air Service Fleet.

“The investment is between £5m and £10m and has been awarded to Bond Helicopters Europe.

“In a time of unprecedented cuts to policing, I am fully committed to achieving value for money, not just for West Yorkshire, but across the country.

Didn't they just say, "single contract & better value for money in the same sentence .... twice?

One way of making everyone happy :hmm:

MightyGem

11th Sep 2014, 18:00

Didn't they just say, "single contract & better value for money in the same sentence .... twice?
Ah, but each one refers to a different contract.

Cabby

11th Sep 2014, 19:34

1400 hours paid up front and non refundable!
I bet the nappers at NPAS are praying for bad weather.

Question, who gets the money if the hours are not flown off?
Home office or West Yorkshire?

SilsoeSid

11th Sep 2014, 20:42

I think those in PNAS are being very careful with 'its' words;

“In a time of unprecedented cuts to policing, I am fully committed to achieving value for money, not just for West Yorkshire, but across the country."

A slow but sure & steady move away from 'PNAS' itself having responsibility and into the hands of West Yorkshire. Is there actually anything to PNAS, apart from a name used as a prefix and a badge with the still unapproved usage of the crown? As cabby has asked, what happens when WY say they don't want to be the lead anymore? Was there a get out clause?

Anyway, pay as you go; If we're still around, it will stop the 45 minute transits for 15 mins on task for those priority 1's at 04:30 and the 'they once watched golf on TV, can you search the counties golf courses'.... I'd like to think :uhoh:

If forces are reluctant to fork out £50 for a phone ping, do we really expect a £1600 search of an unknown area to be worth getting the supervisor out of bed for?

Nail The Dream

12th Sep 2014, 10:19

Is that now a new and official "Goal" referred to in the NPAS - AAA presentation :

One year on - Remember the Goal
To deliver a national service, organised
regionally and delivered locally"

Have they now officially abandoned the other original goal of
providing a more effective service at a reduced cost,
or is that one still there but just not being met ??? :ugh:

Nail

SilsoeSid

12th Sep 2014, 13:06

NPAS Overview | West Yorkshire Police (http://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/about-us/national-police-air-service/overview)

The focus of NPAS is to deliver a more cost effective service, balancing the need to save money in a challenging economic environment against the need to ensure the police service has a quickly deployable asset that can be used to tackle crime and protect the public.

NPAS will ensure that essential air support continues to be delivered where it is required; ensuring that confidence in the service remains high. Forces will also be able to make use of a number of aircraft within each region meaning that the police service’s response will, in many cases, be enhanced over current provision. NPAS will be a truly national (England and Wales) policing service that will be at the heart of improving public safety. It will bring improvements in operational efficiencies and allow for the introduction of innovative contracts that offer better value for money for the service and the tax payer.

Guess that page needs updating :(

SilsoeSid

12th Sep 2014, 13:10

... and this also needs revision, (apart from the logo still needing HM The Queens approval)

National Police Air Service (NPAS) | West Yorkshire Police (http://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/npas)
NPAS will provide a national, borderless service making use of the nearest aircraft meaning that the police service's response will, in many cases, be enhanced over current provision.

The underlying principle of NPAS is a national service, regionally coordinated for local delivery.

NPAS will provide an air service to 98% of the population of England and Wales within 20 minutes.

25 NPAS aircraft will be placed at 23 strategic locations that provide the operational capability to deliver an enhanced service to the public with an aircraft being available 24 hours a day. 3 reserve aircraft will also be provided when aircraft are offline for maintenance to minimise reduction in service.

NPAS will deliver a more cost effective service balancing the need to save money against the need to ensure the police service has a quickly deployable asset that can be used to tackle crime and protect the public. It is anticipated that NPAS will save up to £15 million a year compared to previous arrangements for police air support when all forces join NPAS.

Under the National Collaboration Agreement for NPAS West Yorkshire Police is the lead force and is responsible for the delivery of the service including the centralised aircraft despatch centre based in West Yorkshire. This ensures that NPAS is led and owned by the police service and delivers the operational benefits and financial savings that have been presented to individual police authorities

*Logo pending HM The Queen approval

SilsoeSid

12th Sep 2014, 13:41

A lot of answers to many of the problems can be found in the FAQ page.
NPAS Frequently Asked Questions | West Yorkshire Police (http://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/about-us/national-police-air-service/faqs)

Just a shame that what was learnt was ignored.

7mGgrtPaWzY

It's A Mistake
Men At Work

Jump down the shelters to get away
The boys are cockin' up their guns
Tell us general, is it party time?
If it is can we all come

Don't think that we don't know
Don't think that we're not trying
Don't think we move too slow
It's no use after crying
Saying

It's a mistake, it's a mistake
It's a mistake, it's a mistake

After the laughter as died away
And all the boys have had their fun
No surface noise now, not much to say
They've got the bad guys on the run

Don't try to say you're sorry
Don't say he drew his gun
They've gone and grabbed old Ronnie
He's not the only one saying

It's a mistake, it's a mistake
It's a mistake, it's a mistake

Tell us commander, what do you think?
Cause we know that you love all that power
Is it on then, are we on the brink?
We wish you'd all throw in the towel

We'll not fade out too soon
Not in this finest hour
Whistle your favorite tune
We'll send a card and flower
Saying

It's a mistake, it's a mistake
It's a mistake, it's a mistake

Cabby

12th Sep 2014, 19:16

Noted the following Airbus announcement on the other MOD thread in rotor heads.
The problem of cracks and vibrations has been known about since 2010 it says.
Auto-rotation training drives German army light-twin requirement - 6/25/2014 - Flight Global (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/auto-rotation-training-drives-german-army-light-twin-400749/)

Following this news from Airbus, what do the NPAS aircraft insurers say about the pilots 6 monthly autorotation training not being carried out down to the ground following the Glasgow crash?
Do Bell aircraft have the same problems carrying out auto's to the ground?
Maybe its time for a change of aircraft, or maybe another new trailer!

Fortyodd2

13th Sep 2014, 13:44

"Maybe its time for a change of aircraft, or maybe another new trailer!"

..........or better still, use the simulators already available.

jayteeto

13th Sep 2014, 17:40

Cabby, we have never done down to the ground in current types. It isn't 135 specific!! The SIM does a great job thanks, when we screw up, it is much cheaper too
Do you actually understand what down to the ground means??

Cabby

13th Sep 2014, 18:59

Yes I do thanks, and thinking of what happened over Glasgow I did wonder about the relevance of the Airbus news article (vibrations and cracks).

Do all NPAS pilots now carry out SIM training? or is it still a case of a TRE sitting alongside at each unit and flying away at the bottom of the auto from 2000ft?

Why do the CAA approved TRE's carry out the police auto's from 2000ft or higher at the airfield I'm at, when most police a/c operate at 500ft or lower during the day?
Why don't they do it from 600ft at night which is the normal heights the police tend to operate at.

When is the AAIB due on the Glasgow Police 135 crash, December?

Is there any news regarding any type of real time monitoring/recording equipment for the EC135 or MD902 or black boxes prior to the report?
I'm aware of the other thread but the Flight Global article did make me wonder if there was any news on why the Glasgow Police a/c crashed and it didn't make a successful auto - to the ground?

SilsoeSid

13th Sep 2014, 20:49

Cabby
Why do the CAA approved TRE's carry out the police auto's from 2000ft or higher at the airfield I'm at, when most police a/c operate at 500ft or lower during the day?

Why don't they do it from 600ft at night which is the normal heights the police tend to operate at.

Cabby, do you 'fly police' or just not very good at estimating height?

zorab64

13th Sep 2014, 21:10

Cabby - Some of your posts cause my jaw to drop!
40 Odd has a good point, there's an excellent training facility, owned by a different organisation, so NPAS would have to pay . . . which probably causes a problem! This is despite a number of forces/ASUs having written business cases some years ago to show that the cost of sending pilots to complete instrument and emergency training, on a decent simulator, paid for itself in reduced aircraft training hours as well as operational downtime. In addition, significantly better and more realistic training was achieved than can generally be accomplished in the real thing, certainly for the more obscure malfunctions.

On the subject of aircraft types & down-to-ground autos - in many years of flying twin engined helos, I've NEVER heard of any organisation mad enough to risk taking a twin engined helo down to the ground in full auto - the risks of doing it on a regular basis are astronomical. That's the whole point of a twin engined machine anyway - the second engine just takes you to the scene of a possibly more stressful landing than usual! If you fly twins for long enough, you have two modes - the twin mode & the OEI mode. The latter is the same as flying a single, i.e. you're always keeping an eye out for a place to land in extremis. The important thing is to realise the difference between modes and to be able to switch immediately after losing the first engine.
The more experienced a pilot becomes on twins, the greater the need to look in the mirror & remind themselves that they only fly a single with the safety net of a spare engine - it's a reminder that, if forgotten, could prove fatal, I'd suggest. :\

Another problem with down-to-ground autos in a twin is that the rotor systems are optimised, by design, for powered flight, which generally results in a more lively head (certainly in more modern designs) & requires very careful Nr management in auto. Practising autos, therefore, comes with a very high risk of overspeeding the head, amongst other problems - hence owners of all such types NOT practising real autos.

Singles are designed to have a rotor system that acts as the second engine in a twin - i.e. some element of control while you land in more stressful circumstances. To offset the increased stress, manufacturers design a head that's generally a little easier to control in auto. :ok:

I'd suggest you need to polish your height estimation skills if you think Police are foolish enough to grub around @ 5/600' by day/night. There always remains a need to consider the vast majority of the population, who are not lost or committing mischief, and let them get on with their lives while trying to police the minority, whilst making a horrible noise (to many ears!). In addition, the cameras often work better with a bit more height. :ok:

misterbonkers

13th Sep 2014, 21:51

zorab - interesting points. Although don't the AS350 and AS355 share the same rotorhead...? ;)

Most twins have a limitation in their flight manual regarding intentional full down EOLs.

zorab64

13th Sep 2014, 22:54

mister b - You are correct, I think, although those designs would be an example of a single with an extra engine added, almost as an after-thought, but to meet a requirement relatively cheaply.
As mentioned, I was really referring to more recent designs, i.e. 1990's or later, where the benefits of significant rotor development & understanding have been seen.
I think you'll find that the Seaking would not be considered as "optimised" for powered flight, as rotor design has come on a long way since the Queen of the Skies was originally designed! :ok:
The Lynx, however, would be an example of an upgrade in rotor design that improved powered efficiency but, if I understand it correctly, made autos a little more interesting . . . though still not practised to the ground.

jayteeto

13th Sep 2014, 22:59

In another life, I was a CFS instructor and carried out a humongous amount of EOLs. We also taught instructors how to get out of mishandled autos. Experienced pilots often made the biggest mistakes that tested those skills to the limit. THAT is why we should not do full EOLs in expensive police/AA helicopters, we would end up bending them. Remember that a successful real EOL is one that the crew survive, even with a trashed helicopter.
I use "that" simulator every 6 months and can say with confidence that it is very realistic for autos and emergency training. It is cheaper than the aircraft I believe.
As for the 500-600' comments, well........... The TFOs said that I flew lower than most pilots, but 5-600 were certainly not my normal heights. The spotterscope worked best around 900-1000'.

Brilliant Stuff

16th Sep 2014, 19:01

The simulator jayteeto refers to is half of what the aircraft costs per flying hour, just to add some realism to this debate......

With the new cameras there is no need to operate below 1000' Agl....I don't think there are no old ones left.

airpolice

16th Sep 2014, 19:03

.....................................

Any

SilsoeSid

17th Sep 2014, 22:11

While we wait for the NPAS annual report to come out, how about this?
http://www.ukcivilairpatrol.co.uk/wsp_images/skywatch_mag_spring_2014rev1_opt.pdf

If air support for forces is going to cost £1600 per hour, could the Civil Air Patrol provide a more cost effective service?

Wagging Finger

18th Sep 2014, 18:18

Not if you read their publication they can't.

SilsoeSid

19th Sep 2014, 14:49

Only 7 'working days' to go until NPASLondon day :ok:

http://now-here-this.timeout.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/three-choppers.jpg

I know it was a few years ago, but did Victoria get an answer?

http://www.mayorwatch.co.uk/the-met-police-air-support-unit-is-under-threat/

Nail The Dream

20th Sep 2014, 18:26

I imagine she got her answer a couple of years ago
when Boris appointed her as his Deputy ! :ugh:

Nail

SilsoeSid

21st Sep 2014, 07:47

Nail The Dream;
I imagine she got her answer a couple of years ago
when Boris appointed her as his Deputy ! :ugh:

So she is in a position to do something, if the answers asked back then weren't/aren't answered satisfactorily.

Colonal Mustard

24th Sep 2014, 17:31

YOcGdoaLNO0

Nail The Dream

24th Sep 2014, 18:56

Loving the TFO's covert hearing protection :oh:

( Tactical Firearms Officer's not Tactical Flight Officer's :hmm: )

Nail

SilsoeSid

24th Sep 2014, 20:51

Future PNAS display team?

Surely not, there's too many of them :eek::E

SilsoeSid

25th Sep 2014, 17:50

I imagine she got her answer a couple of years ago
when Boris appointed her as his Deputy ! :ugh:

Nail

So you can confirm that the Met are joining PNAS next week? :ooh:

Brilliant Stuff

25th Sep 2014, 18:40

I was told this got delayed again to the 1st January 2015....

Fortyodd2

25th Sep 2014, 18:53

31st October anyone?

SilsoeSid

25th Sep 2014, 21:08

Hopefully by the time the Met come on board, PNAS would have sorted out the corporate identity!
It seems everyone else, including the aircraft, is wearing the new PNAS badges, emblems and identity apart from ….

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/DB37BCEB-B691-4C09-A887-F82F58B04C1F_zps1o1qrbx6.jpg
The Emergency Exit Jettison (EEJ) training rig was delivered to the NPAS base at Carr Gate, Wakefield, on Friday 5 September.
Latest NPAS News | West Yorkshire Police (http://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/about-us/national-police-air-service/latest-npas-news)

PANews

26th Sep 2014, 08:41

I also understand that October 1 is off the menu as far as the Met joining NPAS goes but no sign of a date yet so it could still be later in October.

All subject to negotiation.

SilsoeSid

30th Sep 2014, 20:19

Thanks Bryn :ok:

Police Aviation News (http://www.policeaviationnews.com/Latest.htm)

NPAS has published its first Annual Report in digital format. It is fairly short and an easy read so I will leave readers to make up their own minds and make personal interpretations on the figures it presents. It is clear that the numbers of contracted flight hours and those actually operated for the individual police forces have diverged significantly to give a negative viewpoint on NPAS and its worth. Most of us expected that result, after all the police air support industry created by the diverse chief constables and police authorities of the past varied from a 24/7/365 gold standard to something many steps below dictated by local financial muscle. The NPAS we have today is for most a dilution of the gold standard but if you contrast it with some of the many dire operational variations across the world it remains at least a silver standard and might easily enhance itself in time. The report is currently here (http://www.policeaviationnews.com/Acrobat/NPAS%20ANNUAL%20REPORT2014.pdf) on the Police Aviation News website pending the launch of the finite NPAS website

SilsoeSid

3rd Oct 2014, 20:26

Apparently there is now a V1.2 of the annual report,
:ooh::suspect:

... anything to do with a missing £799,183 :eek:

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/dc45d31d3708b433f6b833351b8a7d2d_zpsbb122622.jpg

Nail The Dream

3rd Oct 2014, 22:32

Is it me or does that Pie chart make no sense ?

Or am I going colour blind ? ?

£11.3 MILLION POUNDS on "Private Mileages" !

£15.1 MILLION POUNDS on "Printer Recharges" ! !

wtf :confused:

Nail

SilsoeSid

3rd Oct 2014, 23:45

Change the category colours, rename a couple and move the legend around and maybe that added extra white slice that conveniently balances the numbers won't be noticed.

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/34da11cd6342f2001ea4fd3b626aec1b_zps33d03135.jpg

Nail The Dream

4th Oct 2014, 07:52

My colour vision seems to have been restored,
but now there's a strong smell of FISH ! :uhoh:

I wonder if they used the same set of crayons for the colouring in,
that were used way back for drawing those "20 minute circles" :ugh:

Nail

J.A.F.O.

5th Oct 2014, 09:47

Couldn't they have asked either someone who knew the facts or someone who had even the slightest grip of the English language to write the report?

Cabby

5th Oct 2014, 16:14

Are they basically saying that the previous UEO's or force chiefs didn't give NPAS the correct information when asked? :eek:
Was it a mistake in record keeping or something else?
Surely auditors can find out what went wrong with the figures provided, as its not small change which is being reported.
Who is in charge of monitoring NPAS?

PANews

5th Oct 2014, 18:53

Who is in charge of monitoring NPAS?

Rotorheads?

Just in case you had not twigged it the same original link will now take you to the updated file

SilsoeSid

6th Oct 2014, 01:33

A very good question PAN, I think the answer can be found at the end of the report;

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/831614324fcc08c17fecd1dee4d314c3_zps86f2e47f.jpg

By the way, any news on the rumour that history may be about to repeat itself at Elstree? Do you think it might be something to do with Police helicopter support in Hertfordshire plummets under new scheme (http://www.thecomet.net/news/police_helicopter_support_in_hertfordshire_plummets_under_ne w_scheme_1_3212671), maybe it's a money saving relocation or or simply a rumour?
If not the latter, do we never learn from the past!

The small Enstrom F28 two seat helicopters then used had suffered from vandal attacks at their former base of Elstree Airport and Lippitts Hill offered enhanced security over all of the other sites investigated over a ten year period. http://www.brynelliott.host-ed.me/Lippitts%20Hill%20Police%20Camp.pdf

SilsoeSid

6th Oct 2014, 10:06

With the 5 year contracts for airworthiness management, maintenance and parts now in place, covering 25 aircraft (6 902's and 19 EC's) along with a contract worth £10 million to upgrade 7 of these aircraft, is it safe to assume that there will be no cuts in the number of operationally available aircraft within these 5 years? If there are 'swathing cuts' on the near horizon, will AH be quids in?

Notice that the airworthiness management, maintenance and parts contracts are for 25 aircraft .... what about the 3 spares?

zorab64

6th Oct 2014, 11:21

SS - I think you'll find the spare (reserve) airframes are included in the numbers, certainly the EC machines add up.

SilsoeSid

6th Oct 2014, 12:26

zorab64

SS - I think you'll find the spare (reserve) airframes are included in the numbers, certainly the EC machines add up.

"25 NPAS aircraft will be placed at 23 strategic locations that provide the operational capability to deliver an enhanced service to the public with an aircraft being available 24 hours a day. 3 reserve aircraft will also be provided when aircraft are offline for maintenance to minimise reduction in service."

National Police Air Service (NPAS) | West Yorkshire Police (http://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/npas)

5 Sept 2014
"25 NPAS aircraft are placed at 23 strategic locations providing an air service to 98% of the population of England and Wales within 20 minutes."

Latest NPAS News | West Yorkshire Police (http://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/about-us/national-police-air-service/latest-npas-news)
:confused:

chopper2004

6th Oct 2014, 23:23

I saw this on the web and laughed, though had a thought about the early days of an AAC Sioux with Police Observer during trials lol

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/1455058_348554515312827_8932953142192941471_n_zps8d669fb4.jp g

Cheers

Nail The Dream

7th Oct 2014, 08:02

Just one Hellfire could cause several millions of pounds worth
of improvements to some areas I can think of :E

Nail

Fortyodd2

7th Oct 2014, 08:59

"Stinger is authorised" takes on a whole new meaning................

SilsoeSid

7th Oct 2014, 09:11

..... especially as it is primarily a man portable surface to air missile :eek:
(then developed for air to air)

SilsoeSid

7th Oct 2014, 13:40

The 2013/14 financial year was the first full year of the National Police Air Service (NPAS) operation. The year was a transitional one starting with seventeen forces as members, with a service being provided by eleven aircraft from twelve bases. This escalated to 36 forces being serviced by 22 airframes from nineteen bases.

Just trying to work out how the numbers add up.
As it stands, PNAS is presently supporting 36 forces by using 22 airframes and has just awarded contracts to both PAS and AH for the next 5 years. The contracts are for 6 Explorers and 19 Airbus types.

If that 22 airframes includes the spares, that means that in the next 5 years there are only 3 airframes to join the party.
If that 22 airframes doesn't include the spares, the maintenance contracts only cover what is in PNAS now and do not cover any other aircraft that PNAS/W.Yorks will 'own' in the next 5 years.

ASU's still to join;
Met - 3x145
Wiltshire - 902
Dyfed Powys - 109
S.Wales - 135
Humberside - 902
Sheffield - 902
:confused:

Of course this could all mean that when the 'still to join' units join, there will be a reduction of 8 airframes elsewhere, because it can be clearly seen that for the next 5 years there is only going to be a maximum of 25 MD/AH airframes in the fleet :eek:

As West Yorkshire are the registered owners of 22 aircraft, I suggest that the 22 airframes servicing the 36 forces includes the spares GINFO Search Results Summary | Aircraft Register (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=60&pagetype=65&appid=1&mode=summary&owner=west+yorkshire&pageIndex=1)

This leaves space in the service contract for only 3 more EC's.

Nail The Dream

7th Oct 2014, 18:34

.... unless the number of airframes being quoted is as accurate
as their first attempt at drawing a pie chart :ugh:

Nail

MightyGem

7th Oct 2014, 19:38

Just trying to work out how the numbers add up.
Likewise.

Firstly, how can they say that the Costs/Hours Flown are for the year when Dorset Police and the Western Counties ASU Forces didn't join until July and the Central Region Forces didn't join until October?

The Force Contribution numbers differ in places from what individual Forces told me under my FOI questions. However, my question covered the current Financial Year rather than 2013-2014. Also, some Forces appeared to include the Capital Contribution, and some appeared not too.

The agreed number of flying hours differ in some cases as well, by 100% in some Forces. But, again, my hours are for this year, so I guess I'll need to wait until next years report to compare them.

In a time of increasingly scarce resources the principle of borderless tasking has produced the 10% efficiency saving anticipated in flying hours.
Hmm...I think we probably all agree that that is because of Bobbies not bothering to call for an aircraft.

Removal of Norfolk aircraft - (Saving) £670,000 per annum

Don't quite understand how they can say that. Air Support cost Norfolk £400,000 before joining NPAS and they are now paying £499,575. Where is the saving?

Closure of Henlow, Odiham and Shoreham bases - (Saving) £1.9m in 2012/13; £3.8m in subsequent years
Thames Valley, Hertfordshire and Bedfordshire Forces were paying £2.5 million for Chiltern ASU prior to NPAS which would surely have included the costs for running Henlow? Those three forcers are now paying £2.6 million. Again where is the saving.

Ditto for Odiham and Shoreham as Surrey and Sussex are still paying for air support.

SilsoeSid

7th Oct 2014, 20:48

Page 9 - Operational Performance

Is it only me that thinks it a bit fishy that of the 9 Service Level Agreement (SLA) targets for performance, only 3 were met and the others were either not measured (2), not completed (1) or the statistics were unavailable (3).

SilsoeSid

8th Oct 2014, 07:16

On a lighter note, what priority would this task be?

Police helicopter called to help search for stolen partridges in Ryarsh (http://www.kentonline.co.uk/malling/news/police-helicopter-called-to-help-24628/)

The police helicopter was called out last night after someone reported partridges had been stolen. Ground patrols were sent to Ryarsh at around 10pm to reports of a theft in Park Farm Road.

A force spokesman said a vehicle had been seen with its lights on in woodland and a number of birds were believed to be missing. Officers asked for the helicopter's help about 10.30pm.

The area was cleared but no arrests were made. Inquiries are ongoing.

:)

Filtre de fadaises

8th Oct 2014, 10:05

MG's post raises the question as to what are the savings in providing a (trial?) in-fill for Herts & Beds, using one of the spare airframes I hear, for the last 6 months??
Not sure how/where they're operating from, or who they're using to fly/crew it?

I wonder if they were asked to count partridges from the air at night?????????:mad:

Colonal Mustard

8th Oct 2014, 17:48

could be good old fashioned http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/332/4/5/smoke___iii_by_mattthesamurai-d33s193.jpg

and

http://www.mirrorhistory.com/images/14/mirror-10.jpg

SilsoeSid

8th Oct 2014, 19:40

Sorry to disagree Colonel, but I think the budget only allowed for one of those items;

http://www.advisoranalyst.com/glablog/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/smokenmirrorschart.jpg

SilsoeSid

10th Oct 2014, 21:26

Latest NPAS News | West Yorkshire Police (http://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/about-us/national-police-air-service/latest-npas-news)
The EC 135 (one of the Airbus helicopters in the NPAS fleet) has a cruising speed of approximately 150mph. In the lifetime of the contract a EC 135 could have covered 12.8 million miles - that's nearly 27 round trips to the moon.

150 miles/hr
x 24= 3,600 miles/day
x 365 = 1,314,000 miles / year
x 5 = 6,570,000 miles in 5 years.

:confused::confused::confused:

12,800,000 in 5 years = 2,560,000 miles / year
= 7,014 miles / day = 292 mph
:eek:

98% of the population in 20 minutes! :ok::E

Just to note, a round trip to the moon is 541,103 nm (Apollo 13)

Nail The Dream

11th Oct 2014, 07:33

Slight problem with the figures being quoted by NPAS, ( nothing unusual there :rolleyes: ),
as they are only allowing for 900 hours per year on each airframe. ( 17,100 / 19 = 900 )

So to achieve this :
In the lifetime of the contract a EC 135 could have covered 12.8 million miles

"a" EC 135 will need Warp drive engines installing as "it" will need to fly
at an aveage of over 2800 MPH during every flight.

( 12,800,000 / 5 - 2,560,000 miles per year / 900 hours = 2844.44 MPH )

Who actually comes up with these BS satements,
and who then allows them to be published ? :ugh:

Maybe what they really meant to say was "the NPAS EC135 fleet could have covered 12.8 million .......
that would be abit more more realistic, ( 149.7 MPH ),
but that doesn't allow any time for hovering, and assumes ( a bit like the 20 minute circle calculations )
that the aircraft averages that speed for the duration of the flight :oh:

It might also be a good idea for them to put the quote from Colin James ( Airbus Helicopters )
at the end of the announcement relating to the award of EC135 maintenance contract,
instead of at the end of their competitors' ( MD Helicopters ) maintenance contract announcement !

Lies, Damned lies, Statistics, and NPAS :yuk:

Nail

PANews

11th Oct 2014, 09:51

Just back from the west and saw in the local newspaper that BAE had reneged on the Filton Heliport plan [you can check out the link through Helihub news in the last couple of days].

Not only that it seems that the work being done on the various airframes [downlink upgrades and such like] is severely affecting the availability of spares.

We might have expected it from the Explorer fleet but it seems that the EC135 fleet is similarly 'disadvantaged' and Filton is offline even though there are nominally more 135s to play with than 902s.

Plan A envisaged a slightly larger cull than took place so the pressure is more obvious under Plan B which has still to be realised. i.e. South Yorkshire remained in being so removing another 902 from the spares pool and at the same time increasing the need. In February G-WONN leaves S&E Wales and obliges NPAS to dream up another EC135 to replace it from a fleet that is clearly struggling to provide spare aircraft for existing unseen downtime. There appears to be a need to import another airframe even if it is only a temporary measure.

They have an aircraft of course but it is in Norway and non-standard for UK use, with weeks if not months to reconfigure it.

The Met remains quiet. Why would they join this thing just now?

SilsoeSid

11th Oct 2014, 11:20

Some of the photos in the report are a bit; 'Spot the gaffe' :ok:

SilsoeSid

12th Oct 2014, 09:37

Radlett Society & Green Belt Association | Promoting the village and its facilities as a pleasant place to live and to conserve the local amenities and environment (http://radlettsociety.org/) https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/2224488783/radlettdotbiz_normal.jpg Radlett DotBiz @RadlettDotBiz Fed up with helicopters continually flying over Radlett? Those doing it seem to be Flying Pig Helicopters (http://flyingpighelicopters.co.uk/) - do they have the right to do it?

Flying Pig Helicopters and NPAS Elstree, I wonder if they'll have the same roastcode along Hogg Lane (http://flyingpighelicopters.co.uk/contact-us)! This will be interesting :ooh:

http://flyingpighelicopters.co.uk/content/images/template/logo.png

PANews

12th Oct 2014, 13:49

Always interesting to see another persons take on an NPAS presentation.... a report in Aviation Today on the ADAC’s HEMS conference which took place last month ADAC HEMS Academy at Bonn airport in Germany.

Ollie Dismore, representing the UK’s National Police Air Service, gave a progress update saying that there were now 19 helicopter bases within England and Wales (Scotland is already separate) with 23 helicopters available (16 EC135s, one EC145, and one MD Explorer). The force flew 16,000 hours in 2014, but because of the organization’s expansion, it is expected to log approximately 26,000 hours next year. He also added that the Metropolitan Police, with their three EC135s, were due to join on Oct. 1, 2014.

The next stage in the force’s development was rationalization. “Bases need to be located to support the local requirement. We know where the true demands are now,” he said, adding that there was over capacity in some areas, especially where air support units from different constabularies had been geographically located in close proximity to each other. He said by inheriting all of the contracts within one agency, NPAS was currently saving around $3.2 million (£2 million) per year. However, such a national organization could now work with the benefits of fixed wing aircraft and were looking at buying six airplanes which did mark a change in strategy, although they would still work alongside rotorcraft.

OK a few [reporting?] errors in there but its another take on the same subject.

MightyGem

12th Oct 2014, 18:58

He said by inheriting all of the contracts within one agency, NPAS was currently saving around $3.2 million (£2 million) per year.
So, not £15 million then. :rolleyes:

SilsoeSid

12th Oct 2014, 19:49

Any details on the savings in reference to the maintenance contracts?
Are the savings solely made by grouping everyone together!

Here's one saving method mentioned in the report;
"Deleting loss of use cover to hire in aircraft and hire of pilots that was no longer required due to the resilience of the spare aircraft and floater pilots."
:rolleyes:

Nail The Dream

13th Oct 2014, 10:05

... 23 helicopters available (16 EC135s, one EC145, and one MD Explorer)

So not 23 helicopters then :confused: ( 16 + 1 + 1 = 18 :rolleyes: )

Nail

seniortrooper

13th Oct 2014, 12:16

The way I read the report is:

Spent £3,750,000 more than we earned last year. The HMG had to bail us out to this amount to balance the books?

I have also heard that the 6 fixed wing they are buying will eventually REPLACE (not parallel) helicopters to save further money.. Makes sense doesn't it?

And when are the Met going to join now?

MightyGem

13th Oct 2014, 15:30

"Deleting loss of use cover to hire in aircraft and hire of pilots that was no longer required due to the resilience of the spare aircraft and floater pilots."
Hmm...missed that one. That'll be why there were in excess of 114 shifts lost last year due to a lack of a pilot. :ugh:

MaxR

13th Oct 2014, 18:26

I'm not involved in police aviation so please forgive me if this is a stupid question but are you guys saying that this service costs more than the one it replaced, achieves less than the one it replaced, can't get its facts straight about the money it spends, the number of aircraft it has or the amount of cover it gives and no-one cares but you? Politicians, senior police officers, PCCs, no-one?

Is that really what you're saying?

MightyGem

13th Oct 2014, 20:44

In a word...yes. :E

SilsoeSid

13th Oct 2014, 21:21

Max, you may be interested to see this video, part of a not so recent PNAS get together, presented by 'them' to an open forum;

a88Rc4RhQJk

For those of us that have seen it before, try it with the sound off.

PANews

14th Oct 2014, 10:00

Nail the Dream

In case you did not question the erroneous figures in the article....

That article stated only one Explorer but there are quite a few more than that so I am unsure where the number [or the typo] came from.

SilsoeSid

14th Oct 2014, 10:30

"PPRuNe is known in European and English Speaking Pilot circles and is cited by media in reports relating to aviation. Since the site has more than 250,000 registered members, many of them pilots, the site is sometimes at the center of debates about aviation issues in the news"

MaxR;
I'm not involved in police aviation so please forgive me if this is a stupid question but are you guys saying that this service costs more than the one it replaced, achieves less than the one it replaced, can't get its facts straight about the money it spends, the number of aircraft it has or the amount of cover it gives and no-one cares but you? Politicians, senior police officers, PCCs, no-one?

Is that really what you're saying?

To put it into 'who cares' figures Max, there are 4 dedicated threads to this topic, in reality it is one large thread in 4 chunks on PPRuNe;

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/397650-uk-police-helicopter-budget-cuts.html
posts 2,139
views 222,195

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/473735-uk-npas-discussion-thread-mk-2-a.html
posts 961
views 138,191

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/524726-uk-npas-discussion-thread-mk-3-a.html
posts 256
views 84,208

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/527179-uk-npas-discussion-thread-mk-4-a.html
posts 457
views 888,354

That's a total of 3,813 posts and 1,332,948 views.
This makes it the most replied to thread on Rotorheads (and second most viewed thread on Rotorheads, only just topped by 'Bristows')

As it stands in the ratings for the whole of the PPRuNe website, looking at the first 3 pages of every forum on PPRuNe, (i.e. most current & active threads) it is the second highest thread for views and posts behind the http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/535538-malaysian-airlines-mh370-contact-lost.html thread.

The country's Policing and Crime Commissioners (PCC's) & Chief Constables (CC's) meeting with NPAS programmed for later this month has apparently been postponed, coincidentally the Met have no plans to join PNAS anytime in the near future. With this meeting in mind, I wonder how many of the PCC's and CC's had visited their local/regional air support units, in preparation for the meeting?

At some time in the near future there will be this rescheduled meeting for the PCC's & CC's to discuss no doubt amongst other items, further cuts. Isn't it ironic that helicopter support for the country may be further reduced from the original 33 helicopters down to possibly 18 or even 11, supplemented with 6 fixed wing. Elsewhere dog sections, firearms, traffic etc etc, you know … those front line positions, have been merging and cutting back, all in the name of savings, yet despite this, in England & Wales (PNAS operating area) we still have 41 Chief Constables (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_constable), and we also have 41 PCC's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_and_crime_commissioner#England) that replaced the 41 Police Authorities (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_authority) and some of these PCC's offices cost more than the Authorities that they replaced. BBC News - Four of six East PCCs 'cost more' than police authorities (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-29229692).

To sum up Max, there does actually appear to be a great deal of interest in the subject of 'police air operations in the UK', where it is going & how it's getting there, but with who and where that interest lies, is perhaps worthy of its own thread!

misterbonkers

14th Oct 2014, 12:05

With most replies to the thread coming from a select few individuals?

SilsoeSid

14th Oct 2014, 12:17

... just like every other thread that the figures are compared against.

The point is, the discussion continues; and in reference to Max's post, by those that care.

seniortrooper

17th Oct 2014, 08:47

Mmm something smells here.
MaxR is from the press Silsoe - beware.
Of the 3800+ posts on NPAS, you have to accept that 3700 are yours now don't you :D

I hear on the streets that the Met are very uncomfortable joining under the umbrella of a rural police force much smaller than them and controlling some very expensive Met assets. There is a head to head of C.C's it seems and that is why the meeting has been postponed......:eek:

Undoubtedly - the fleet will be further "rationalised", it makes sense to me as an outsider that for many forces, a cheap and cheerful aeroplane can do what 'some' police helicopters are achieving at a quantum increase in cost by comparison.

Surely a light aircraft with mainly civilians and one policeman (SME) onboard is the way ahead - no?

SilsoeSid

17th Oct 2014, 10:31

Senior;
MaxR is from the press Silsoe - beware.
Of the 3800+ posts on NPAS, you have to accept that 3700 are yours now don't you :D

Phew that's a relief, I thought for a mo that he may have been from PNAS ;)

As it happens, of the 3,800+ posts on NPAS, I can only claim 219 of them, oops that's now 220 :p

Funny that you should mention a rural policing model, aeroplane and single crewing in the same post, I guess the whole fixed wing issue is based on misper searches and thermals not being 'dynamic tasking'. :hmm:

Filtre de fadaises

17th Oct 2014, 17:18

Hasn't a fixed wing trial been carried out? I heard rumour it had started from Benson with a low-winged :ugh: twin, but didn't follow it up to see what happened, or is it still going?

. . a cheap and cheerful aeroplane . . . Surely a light aircraft . . .
Much as I understand the sentiment, and I'm sure PNAS would be keen to pick up the first adjective, I don't think the CAA will be too keen on anything too cheap or basic = slow & limited capacity. There're going to insist on a twin, surely, which will benefit from a turn of speed, if it's to achieve any advantage in the wider airspace/operating area. Anything small will mean minimal crew/Police with attendant limitations on what can be achieved? Certainly, as SS notes, reactionary effectiveness will fall by the wayside, unless the task's within sensible range of a rotary base, of which there may be fewer, if I read the runes here correctly?

SilsoeSid

17th Oct 2014, 18:14

http://www.vulcanair.com/userfiles/file/VULCANAIR%20Newsletter%2011-2013(1).pdf

Unless I'm much mistaken, isn't the P68R powered by Avgas?
Twice as expensive as Jet A1 and as there isn't any supplied there any more, I guess Birmingham for one won't be getting too many visits :eek:

Update on the Roskilde incident here (http://www.baaa-acro.com/2013/archives/crash-of-a-partenavia-p-68-in-roskilde-2-killed/)

SilsoeSid

17th Oct 2014, 18:50

It's at the top of this 6 page list :eek:

Bureau of Aircraft Accidents Archives (http://www.baaa-acro.com/advanced-search-result/?aircraft=201962)

Total of crashes: 57
Total of fatalities: 116

Aviation Safety Network (http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/dblist.php?AcType=P68)

59 occurrences in the ASN safety database,
showing occurrence 1 - 59

MaxR

18th Oct 2014, 12:32

Not a gentleman of the press, I assure you; but thanks all for taking the time to reply.

Nail The Dream

20th Oct 2014, 07:28

"Gentleman" and "Press" are two words you don't see in the same sentence very often ! :rolleyes:

Nail

Cabby

20th Oct 2014, 18:23

So where are the 6 planks going to be based?
How many NPAS units have runways.....Carr Gate? :E

Nail The Dream

20th Oct 2014, 18:34

I think NPAS Birmingham still have a runway :rolleyes:

Nail

SilsoeSid

20th Oct 2014, 21:05

I think NPAS Birmingham still have a runway

Nail

I think your right Nail; along with plenty of hangarage, located in the close vicinity of 2 large cities and the central motorway network, within 20 minutes all round of many other cities and large towns in Central England, with the most up to date airfield services & support available 24/7. Only thing is ... there ain't no Avgas!

Guess they'll be having their cards marked then!

SilsoeSid

20th Oct 2014, 21:30

Fuel bowsers, now that's a funny old story at the moment in the world of PNAS, deserving of a 'couldn't make it up' award! One that even I wouldn't tell here :eek:

Not sure which type is actually going to be chosen, but the trial ac is featured here, with answers to the questions Vulcanair P68R: safety first (http://video.ft.com/1304855423001/Vulcanair-P68R-safety-first/Editors-Choice)

With such range and endurance, why buy 6?

Cabby

21st Oct 2014, 11:40

Thats not a bad price 750,000 euros for a twin. EC135 = £5m
So in theory NPAS could be looking at lower purchases but higher fuel costs.

Whats the current EC135/MD 902 DOC's compared to the Vulacanair P68R.

It sounded very quiet on the low high speed flypast at the beginning, and 9 hours endurance! Writings on the wall me thinks.....

Who will be inline to get one of the 6 new planks and have any been ordered?

Wonder if NPAS chiefs noticed the ever increasing red map circle on the video? With that radius they will be flying perimeter patrols around oil rigs next ;)

SilsoeSid

21st Oct 2014, 12:24

Anyone know what the weather limits will be for PNAS fixed wing?

It would be interesting to see what this fixed wing trial actually consisted of. Was it working next to a helicopter unit and taking on all that was requested?

I hear, and this is nothing but a rumour, that the 6 massive rings of fixed wing coverage will be presented to the PCC's and CC's meeting as a convincer to the reduction of rotary down to 11 :eek:

Right, how do I stand with my 40 hrs Chipmunk?

Pofman

21st Oct 2014, 17:08

Here we go again re-inventing the wheel. I flew for the Met for several years in the early 80's and they had trialed fixed-wing operations and found that they had limited availability and poor response time, so they went for helicopters. It seems that the new NPAS has sacrificed response for "notional coverage" so no problem there for most of the country but I see why the MET are dragging their heels on joining. They don't want a watered down service.
Fixed-wing certainly do not meet the capability of heliteli surveillance in inner city ops. Try keeping eyes-on in a Regent Street demonstration in a plank- 2G 60 degree high power noisy turns over the inner city!
All the deficiencies being created with this programme will need to be covered direct from government on ther first occasion there is a national incident. What a waste of time, effort and money, and more importantly the lost experience of the local operators.

SilsoeSid

22nd Oct 2014, 01:17

Cabby, you sure about the P68 costing €750,000? (£592,000)

According to the report, the fixed wing trial cost £310,000, which would be half the cost of a brand new aircraft and a tank of Avgas!!! :eek:

[email protected]

22nd Oct 2014, 20:46

Pofman - was that the Optica trial that I remember being crashed (with a fatality sadly) in Hampshire in the 80s?

I was in London at the weekend - not part of the trade union demo - a fixed wing would have been cock-all use, as you say, monitoring something like that.

It very much seems that accountants are determining operational capability as far as police ops are concerned.

Pofman

23rd Oct 2014, 20:52

Crab,
The Optica was one type tried but they used various F/Wings. The problem was largely that most operations, when on site, are slow speed and in poor vis conditions the a/c operates very close to the stall. Hampshire were particularly keen to use F/W but even they ran into weather, slow speed problems. Cheaper yes but operationally less effective even with twins.
As you observed in London they would have been little use. In Brixton the rioters knocked out all the streetlights and ran amok. We turned up with the Nightsun and control of the streets was rapidly re-established. The helicopter probably paid for itself that evening alone. I just don't see the MET letting go of their EC145s.

PANews

24th Oct 2014, 04:38

A quick Google check shows the price of a P68 as being around Euros 670,000 each but to that you need add zillions for the required role fit, an MX-10 downlink, radio fit etc is no cheaper just because it is on a f/w.

The prices being quoted before are probably the cost of the Airborne Technologies trial lease. As a trial it does not matter what fuel is used. An MX-10 costs a tad more than £145,000!

If they do not go for a turbine f/w they may find cost even more and may depend on airport fuel farms and bowsers.

Just been to the new unit at Hurn and they are sub 24 hour as is the airfield. The plan is that the 24 hour NPAS helicopters can land when it is all closed up and serve themselves from the fuel at the unit...... that means that the f/w fleet will not be as flexible and may not be seen as 24/7 as needing to be able to get to fuel.

SilsoeSid

31st Oct 2014, 09:56

So, if we say that an all in fixed wing unit will cost £2 million, one immediate way of saving a shed full of money would be to reduce the number of ac purchased.

Wow, you can see the opening slide at the PCC & CC conference already;
'Having purchased (n) fixed wing assets, PNAS has already realised savings to the amount of £6 million.'

Bit like Ryanair and their 'always on time' timings :hmm:

SilsoeSid

31st Oct 2014, 17:02

I hear that the fixed wing assets will also allow rotary crews to be flown to Germany for simulator trips, as it would be cheaper than paying private travel claims to Gloucester :ok:

Every cloud ...

SilsoeSid

1st Nov 2014, 01:12

Camper van in a lay-by! That would also save a bit of dosh in the hotel suite budget, if you know what I mean :ooh:

Fly_For_Fun

5th Nov 2014, 16:15

Has the Met signed up for, and joined, NPAS yet?

SilsoeSid

5th Nov 2014, 21:39

Rumour has it that the latest TFO selection candidates have been informed of the decisions. I wonder how that will affect next years report, especially after this years report told us;

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/23300cf1e1695a7c857a2f183f3c7578_zps4a835da8.jpg

Oh! Apparently, according to the grapevine, no affect whatsoever :confused:

On the same page of the report;

There are also 44% of Police Officer TFOs aged over 45 who have the option to retire after 30 years of service. This may facilitate the replacement of these with police staff equivalents at a lesser cost.

But only if they manage to get through the interview :confused:

I trust that the interview panel was made up of sufficient 'rank' and any conflicts of interest were declared :ooh:

SilsoeSid

5th Nov 2014, 23:03

Recently retired TFO training officers not good enough to pass the PNAS TFO selection process, whatever next ..... Recently qualified TFO's failing line checks?
:eek:

Nail The Dream

6th Nov 2014, 07:48

... or failing the Selection Process Flight Tests :rolleyes:

Nail

SilsoeSid

7th Nov 2014, 18:58

One big question being asked, were any candidates selected for TFO training?

Fortyodd2

8th Nov 2014, 15:59

Cabby,
if for no other reason to give you some facts:

1. Yes, there were some female candidates who got through to the flight tests.
2. The suggested starting pay for those selected is higher than one of the current TFO Training Officers with over 16 Years in the job - go figure.
3. There was no distinction between Fixed or Rotary wing - but the Fixed Wings are at least a year away.

Like Sid, so far I have not yet heard how many were successful and know of only one that wasn't.

SilsoeSid

8th Nov 2014, 17:36

forty;

1. Yes, there were some female candidates who got through to the flight tests.
2. The suggested starting pay for those selected is higher than one of the current TFO Training Officers with over 16 Years in the job - go figure.
3. There was no distinction between Fixed or Rotary wing - but the Fixed Wings are at least a year away.

1. And they did exceptionally well in those flight tests, some much better than the male candidates, so the grapevine goes. That also applied to the written/aptitude tests.

2. Post 346 this thread;
Tactical Flight Officer
National Police Air Service (NPAS)
Various Locations
Salary £24,036 - £25,704
Ref: XPC037
Closing date: 24 August 2014

Don't know where your figures are from but;

Pay Scales (http://www.westmidspolfed.com/advice-regs/?/Pay/Pay-Scales)

CONSTABLES’ PAY

With effect from

1 September 2014

On commencing Service
£23,727

On completion of initial training
£26,484

3. Fixed wing is less than a year away ;)