The "Mark 26" Spitfire

[FNG]

Reading about this kitbuild 80% scale replica in "Today's Pilot", and then on the "Supermarine Aircraft" website, I couldn't decide whether the idea of such a machine was very cheesy or very attractive. I wonder if anyone in the UK has built one? I wonder also why they don't sell them complete, although as to this the whole homebuilding thing is beyond my ken in any event.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I've had occasion to take a good look at this aircraft (which incidentally is called the Supermarine Mk.26, they refuse to use the word Spitfire). It's a roughly 80% scaled down replica based upon the Spitfire Mk.25, single seat with electrically retracting gear and a 200hp horizontally opposed air-cooled 4-stroke engine.

It has not been certified in the UK, but has good potential to be. Almost certainly against JAR-VLA, through the PFA homebuilt permit to fly system. I understand that 3 kits have been ordered by people in the UK, one by ST Aviation - the UK Jabiru importer. ST are I believe hoping to certify it through the PFA but my intellegence sources don't tell me how far they've got. From my own investigations, I don't think there's much certification data available and the PFA's Chief Engineer is not going to nod it through, there isn't enough operating experience for that (and knowing him fairly well, he's somewhat risk adverse - as most people whose signature can allow a new aeroplane to fly tend to be !).

So, my gut feeling is that you'll see the first UK example flying under test conditions in a couple of years, and perhaps having full approval in a year or two after that. No doubt, in the time honoured tradition, it will need a fair amount of modification to meet the British interpretation of European safety requirements (that, in this case, is not a criticism of the British system, just a statement of opinion based upon my own experience of working on many such projects).

Why not ready-to-fly? For that it would have to be issued with an ICAO CofA, which means that Supermarine Australia would need a full manufacturing approval. I don't believe that they have the capability to do that without adding huge costs. I also suspect that if they looked at the economics of it, they would not consider that the extra cost of company approval, VLA certification, and product liability compensates from the additional profit of being able to sell the aircraft RTF when they already appear to be selling as many kits as they can build.

Personally, I think it looks wonderful and I'd love one. If I won the lottery tomorrow, giving up work, ordering a Mk.26 kit, and spending my time certifying it so that I could fly them in the UK is high on the list of things I'd think of doing with myself.

G

[I have control]

To build one of these kits in the UK you would need to get the design approved by the PFA (I don't think this one has been, yet, you could check on the PFA website). I'm told it can be a lengthy and quite tedious process, even for designs that are backed by a lot of engineering knowledge and data.

Or you could move here to homebuilder's paradise and just build it.

:)

There are a number of Spitfire replicas around, you can see some at www.spitfire.org

I know there are a couple of 100% scale wooden ones under construction here in the States with Griffon engines. Also Clive du Cros made a nice 100% scale replica of the Spitfire prototype K5054 a few years back (& published a book about it) although the airplane had an unfortunate flying career.

For me the nicest looking Spitfire replica is the 80% Canadian one built by Bob Cutting & Terry Wilshire. I believe the latter is working on a kit & set of plans for it.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Correction to my last post, Spitfire Mk.5, not Mk.25.

"I have control" is of-course right about the relative ease with which you can build and fly things in the USA. The difference, IMHO, is that between a large sparsely populated continent, and a small crowded island. Given that the prime concern of regulators will always be the safety of innocent bystanders, the approach is inevitably different. Ideally of-course, you'd be flying a British certified aeroplane in the USA.

G

[I have control]

There is something in what you say, but I'm not certain that the regulatory culture in the UK is always just about protecting inoocent bystanders.

In Britain there is more of a tendency for the state to feel that it must protect the individual from himself/herself, as well as to prevent the individual from harming others. In the USA the culture is more inclinded towards saying "If you want to risk your own neck, that's up to you, what we won't let you do is harm others."

[FlyingForFun]

Hmm, sounds fun! :D

Will have to invest in a copy of Today's Pilot I think...

Quote from Genghis:

Why not ready-to-fly? For that it would have to be issued with an ICAO CofA

I have to admit this seems a little backwards to me, although I can see how it's come about. Basically, what you're saying is that I'm allowed to build an aircraft in my garage, with no prior knowledge of building aircraft at all, except for having spoken to a PFA inspector for an hour or two. However, an aircraft factory, staffed by experienced professionals, and with more tools and equipment that I could fit in my entire house, even if I could afford them, is not allowed to build the same aircraft and sell it to me. Does that pretty much sum it up?

Like I said, I can see how the situation has arisen. It's not something I ever considered before, until I saw Gengis' comment. But it will be great to see Spitfires being made new again, even if they're not actually calling them Spitfires!

FFF
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[FNG]

Thanks for that info Genghis. The Mark 26, by the way, has two seats (although only one set of controls) and is aerobatic. They call it a Spitfire on their website. The Test Pilot's report is at http://www.supermarineaircraft.com/

PS: re regulatory culture: I Have Control must have visited or live in another USA in a parallel universe. In the one I've visited, they won't let you ski off piste, and people who went to shops and bought packets of cigs, all by themselves, claim gazillions in damages for being allowed to hurt themselves.

[Genghis the Engineer]

FFF - From the CAA's viewpoint (and you may as well see it from theirs, since they write the rulebook), any aeroplanes has to be built by an approved company. The PFA and BMAA are approved companies, Supermarine Australia aren't. And take-it from me, if you were to build a new design under supervision of either, a few hours chat with an inspector is somewhat less than you can expect - months writing reports for the Chief Engineer, many days with your inspector, and weeks assisting a test pilot are a little closer to the mark.

FNG - am I right in thinking that the Mk.25 is the single seater and the Mk.26 is the 2-seater? They may be doing aeros in Oz under their deregulated ultralight regs, but anywhere in Europe you'll need JAR-23 certification for that, which I think is a tad optimistic. At best, I think you can expect JAR-VLA non aerobatic approval. However, I'd love to be proven wrong. I've read the alleged TP's report on the company site, tells you virtually nothing unfortunately.

IHC - You may be right, although nobody stops you climbing mountains. I'd venture that the philosophy is more to stop people killing themselves doing something that they don't understand, and I have some sympathy for that approach.


If anybody out there want's the services of an airworthiness
Engineer and little aeroplane test pilot in exchange for a share in one, I'm open to offers.

G

[FNG]

A good idea Genghis, but presumably that would mean you couldn't do the building. I have given up engineering after a day spent changing the radiator on an old Triumph left me with bleeding knuckles and a suspicious number of excess nuts and washers. FFF is a bit of a boy with a spanner, I gather, but who has 1000 hours to spend in a garage?

[Genghis the Engineer]

I'm working on the basis that many people can build aeroplanes, but relatively few can do difficult sums and write certification reports - I work to my strengths !

G

[FlyingForFun]

FNG,

FFF is a bit of a boy with a spanner, I gather

You've obviously never seen me working on my car then! I usually get it right - but often not until the second or third try. Acceptable for a car - not for an aeroplane though! :eek: :D

Credit to everyone who's ever successfully built anything which can safely leave the ground with passengers - I doubt I could do it!

Having said that, if anyone is building one of these new Spitfires anywhere near Slough, and wants a hand for an hour or two at the weekend.... :D :D :D

Genghis - thanks for the explaination, I suppose it does make a little bit of sense when you look at it like that.

FFF
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[FNG]

Hoping to entertain Stik, and maintaining the current vogue for reviving ye threades of olde, I was stirred to zombify this one by seeing the ST Aviation advert in the current issue of "Pilot". I have stopped buying all of the flying mags recently, and naughtily allowed my PFA sub to lapse, and so may have missed articles on the current status of the "Mark 26", PFA-wise. Has Genghis or anyone else heard of whether the PFA has had a look at the type, or whether any bold soul is building one in the UK? The relevant website is here: http://www.jabiru.co.uk/spit.htm. They aren't shrinking from calling it a Spitfire, even throwing in a "Supermarine" for good measure (what happened to the Vickers?)

[Hairyplane]

You must read his book!

There is a man with a mission - a bloke I got to know really well when he and I renewed the CofA on G-AKBO - the Messenger he sold me, and also featured in his book.

He decided to build and fly a replica of the prototype Spitfire. He wasn't a pilot at the time. So, what did he do? Bought a kit of Messenger bits, put them all together, learned to fly on it and got his PPL.

After 10 years of trials and tribulations, he built and flew the the Spitfire - 1/1 scale - powered by a Jag V12 driving a Harvard prop through a home-brew reduction gear.

He flew it successfully. However, a test pilot - I am told - stuffed it through mismanagement of the systems.

Despite a heavy gear-up belly landing - it was repairable.

Trouble was, it was all glued together - a one piece aeroplane - and it had to be sawn in 2 behind the cockpit.

It went to the IOW initially to the now-defunct museum and - I believe is now part of the Salisbury Hall collection as a static exhibit. Am I right or has it moved on?

A sad and premature end to a wonderful replica. It looked right and, I am told, sounded right too.

Buy Clives book - it really is fascinating!

I think there are a few aircraft based on his plans under construction around the world. One, I know, has a V12 Allison up front!

I think Clive is in Spain now messing about with boats - a complex character whose entry and exit into aviation were both as sudden.

A priveledge to have known him.

HP

[Mr Wolfie]

Ghengis:

If I won the lottery tomorrow, giving up work, ordering a Mk.26 kit, and spending my time certifying it so that I could fly them in the UK is high on the list of things I'd think of doing with myself.

I won a tenner yesterday on the Lotto - Its been burning a hole in my pocket ever since. Thanks for the idea. I think I'll order one.:D

Mr. W

[Jolly Tall]

You should be able to get a Spitfire for that Mr Wolfie - at 1:72 scale from Airfix ;)

[ChrisVJ]

Re-assembled Triumphs alway have bits left over.

I built a plane and had a whole load of bolts leftover. Now that is worrying.