Cold War, Hot Jets BBC2 Fri 8th Nov 21:00

[exmanman]

Episode 1 of 2

Duration: 1 hour
Britain emerged from the Second World War in financial crisis, but one technological innovation provided hope for the future - a world leading jet aviation industry. During the Cold War, the jet engine became a lucrative export and a powerful piece of military hardware, but selling to the wrong buyer could alter the balance of power.

BBC Two - Cold War, Hot Jets, Episode 1 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03h8r3y)

[joy ride]

Is this a repeat of a great programme shown a couple of years ago? Sadly I will miss it!

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I wonder if they'll mention how the post war Labour government gave Russia a RR jet engine to copy, and use in the Mig? :rolleyes:

[joy ride]

If it IS the same programme I think they do mention it, and the reason:

due to UK's huge debts to USA for their help in WW1 and WW2, and due to Lend Lease and other arrangements, UK was obliged to "share" all its new technology with US. Having supplied jet engines to US, UK decided it was unreasonable to deprive the other great power of this technology and causing an imbalance of power, especially as the Russians also were/had been allies. The same basic British jet engine was on both sides of the battle, and for a while the Russian MIG was clearly using this engine in a more manoeuverable air-frame with devastating effect.

[exmanman]

I too wondered if it had been on before, but a trawl round t'internet reveals it is its first transmission:

http://www.griffonmerlin.com/film-tv/

"I’ve been doing a bit more television work in recent years, including the following:
Cold War, Hot Jets
2 x 60 mins for BBC2, transmission November 2013
Writer & Presenter"


James Holland is one the prime movers behind the Chalke Valley History Festival, and a prolific historian, novelist and broadcaster, with a particular interest in the Second World War. Both his two most recent books – one on the Battle of Britain, the other on the Dam Busters Raid – were made into documentaries for the BBC and were also bestsellers. He is currently making a new series for the BBC about Britain and the Jet Age. He is also the author of the Jack Tanner novels, a series of adventures following the exploits of a British soldier in the Second World War, and of Duty Calls, young adult novels.

James Holland (http://www.randomhouse.co.uk/authors/james-holland)

James Holland was born in Salisbury, Wiltshire, and studied history at Durham University. A member of the British Commission for Military History and the Guild of Battlefield Guides, he also regularly contributes reviews and articles in national newspapers and magazines and appears on national radio. His many books include Fortress Malta, Italy's Sorrow, The Battle of Britain and his fictional WW2 series
featuring Sergeant Jack Tanner.
His interviews with veterans of the Second World War are available at the Imperial War Museum
(http://www.secondworldwarforum.com)

[NutLoose]

Yep new programmes, the programme researcher asked in the Military pilots section a while back for leads etc

[joy ride]

Damn, I will almost certainly miss it and my chances of catching up on iplayer are not good.

A few days ago a friend gave me a small booklet he found at a boot sale called "Jets" apparently published by the National Association of Spotters Clubs. Not dated but I guess around 1944.

It has a few inaccuracies, like saying the Gloster E.28/39 was the "first aircraft in the world in which the jet was produced by a gas turbine." There is nothing about the Heinkel He 176 and 178 and very little about the He 280, clearly due to wartime lack of info.

However it has one fascinating paragraph:

"The (Bell) Airacomet....was made possible by a very notable example of reverse Lease-Lend. Britain sent the original engine used in the Gloster e.28/39 together with full information and data we had obtained, to the American government. This gave America a flying start, of which it does not seem to have taken the fullest advantage..."

I believe that in the true spirit of fair play we then also shared the technology with Russia to prevent a power imbalance, almost certainly without informing USA!

It interests me because so much information about what we gave to USA and all the projects which we cancelled due to their opposition, has been suppressed over the years and substituted with unconvincing excuses. I have heard that USA tried very hard to make us cancel the V Bomber programme and buy American, but this was a very rare occasion when our government did not cave in to US will and DID support "home-grown".

The V Bombers might now be Cold War Dinosaurs, but by the standards of the time they were incredible, and an amazing achievement for a bankrupt and war-damaged nation.

[Lightning Mate]

I wonder how much coverage the Frightening will get.

[TEEEJ]

Shaggy Sheep Driver,

Not just the one engine. 25 Nene I and 30 Derwent V engines were sold to the Soviets.

Jet Aero-Engines (Russia) (Hansard, 21 February 1949) (http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1949/feb/21/jet-aero-engines-russia)

Mr. Donner asked the Minister of Supply what types of jet engine were included among the 55 sold to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics in 1947; what were the numbers of each; and why the licences permitting such sales were issued by him.

Mr. G. R. Strauss Twenty-five Rolls-Royce "Nene I" and 30 "Derwent V" engines were sold to Russia. In answer to the second part of the Question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to him by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary on 6th December last.

The US was able to gain access to the Soviet engine copies and developments from 1951 onwards via MiG-15 wreckage in Korea. The first evaluations on intact airframes were from two Polish defections to Denmark in 1953. These aircraft were returned. Later in 1953 the US got to keep and evaluate a MiG-15 after a North Korean Pilot defected.

Details from the history of the US National Air and Space Intelligence Center (NASIC)

http://www.nasicaa.org/chapter02.pdf

The US evaluated the RD-500 (Derwent V) powered Yak-23 Flora during 1953.

bFXAdrJoQl0&feature=related

[joy ride]

As expected I missed it. Anyone see it, was it good?

[CNH]

We got far more from the Americans in terms of technology than they ever got from us. And no, there was no pressure top cancel the V bombers and buy American.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Well, it seems that any money the Labour government got from Russia for selling them our secrets was more than offset (predictably, really) by that stupid, stupid action pi55ing off the US and making that power less helpful to us.

And demanding that the technology was to used 'for civil use only' was either naive in the extreme, or obfuscation.

And of course the chickens came home to roost when the MIG 15, with a Russian-built Rolls Royce engine, killed many western pilots. What utter pratts were that government!:hmm:

Lord save us from woolly-minded Socialists!

[Planemike]

Lord save us from woolly-minded Socialists!

Better still, save us from politicians.........period !!!

Planemike

[India Four Two]

There is a lovely passage in Stanley Hooker's autobiography (Not Much of an Engineer) about his visit to China in the 70s and being shown a Chinese copy of a Russian copy of a Rolls Royce jet (Nene or Derwent - I can't remember).

His reply was "I see you copied our mistakes as well."

[MG23]

There is a lovely passage in Stanley Hooker's autobiography (Not Much of an Engineer) about his visit to China in the 70s and being shown a Chinese copy of a Russian copy of a Rolls Royce jet (Nene or Derwent - I can't remember).

I was going to mention that. I knew about the Russian debacle, but when I read about the Chinese engines in his book I was wondering whether that had turned out as badly, too?

[DHfan]

"The (Bell) Airacomet....was made possible by a very notable example of reverse Lease-Lend. Britain sent the original engine used in the Gloster e.28/39 together with full information and data we had obtained, to the American government. This gave America a flying start, of which it does not seem to have taken the fullest advantage..."

Not entirely accurate. The Airacomet's original engine was a licence-built DH Goblin which somehow got wrecked. The engine we sent to replace it was a "real" Goblin removed from the second prototype Vampire. Incidentally, the prototype Meteor also first flew with DH engines as the Whittle/Rover/R-R engines weren't ready.

I'd not heard about balance of power being a reason for supplying Nenes to the USSR. The deal was apparently approved by Sir Stafford Cripps who was deeply religious, highly principled and had massive personal integrity. Unfortunately he hadn't realised that not everybody was like him...

[TEEEJ]

Joy Ride,

Available on BBC iPlayer

BBC iPlayer - Cold War, Hot Jets: Episode 1 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03h8r3y/Cold_War_Hot_Jets_Episode_1/)

[Rosevidney1]

'The deal was apparently approved by Sir Stafford Cripps who was deeply religious, highly principled and had massive personal integrity'.


Hmmmm. Bomber Harris allegedly referred to him as Sir Stifford Crapps!

[Allan Lupton]

Quote:
The deal was apparently approved by Sir Stafford Cripps who was deeply religious, highly principled and had massive personal integrity. Unfortunately he hadn't realised that not everybody was like him...

It was said of Cripps that "there, but for the grace of god, goes god" - usually attributed to Churchill.

[DougGordon]

I was very disappointed to hear the various comments used in the film about the British 'doing the Americans dirty work' in relation to the Ju Jitsu spyflights and the RAF U-2 flyers. The tone of the commentary seemed to imply that the good old Brits were the only ones who dared to overfly the Soviet Union. The United States was far too scared! if the author had cared to research the facts he would have noticed that the USA had, in fact, been involved in spyflights since WW2; in both the East and West.Three Tornadoes out of Sculthorpe also overflew the Soviet Union in March 1955 under the command of Major John Anderson. This was one of hundreds of overflights conducted by the USAF.
To those that do not know. The Brits were not the only nation brave enough to overfly Soviet territory in the Cold War.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

The US also did high altitude photo recon flights in Spitfires over Germany in WW2. I didn't know that until recently (never knew Spits ever carried US markings, even).