European Cup Final

[2 six 4]

Someone at work this morning just pointed out that the European Cup Final is on Wednesday night in Glasgow. That is the night we are expected to be in SWIMM for half the night shift !! SHUUURLy some mistake ????:eek::eek: or are they all staying in Scotland overnight ?

[160to4DME]

2 six 4

Glasgow is north of the Swanwick carpark, ergo it doesn't figure in any decisions. ;)

160 with tongue in cheek

[2 six 4]

160 ... I was just concerned about who might go sick that night ....

[160to4DME]

Yeah, I know mate.

I'm developing a sense of humour with a shed load of cynicism in my old age, and the thread was just begging for a comment !! ;o)

Cheers

160 on the lannai :cool:

[1261]

Get ready for May 15th/16th; our schedule alone has an extra 60 movements between 2400-0400 on the first night shift!!

[Take up the Hold]

Glasgow and Edinburgh are splitting the Spanish traffic 70%/30%. The Germans are going to Prestwick. Departures start at 2345 from Glasgow.(Maybe later if there is extra time and penalties). Don't know about Prestwick or Edinburgh. Don't even know how many planes are expected.

[nighthawk117]

here is the EDI traffic:


European Air Charter 747
TransJet 747 x 2
YesTours L1011 Tristar
Euro Atlantic Airways L1011 Tristar
AeroLyon DC10
Electra Airlines DC10

Looks like no lectures for me on wednesday!!! (not that i go to any anyway...)

[radar707]

Glasgow are expecting around another 60 scheduled aircraft, plus god knows how many biz jets (UEFA are sending between 20 and 40 alone).
Not sure where they'll be parking them, rumour has it rwy 10/28, but they won't get many on there, my guess is they land off load the slf, go somewhere else. come back and collect slf, then leave, busy night all round I reckon, glad I'm off :) :) :) :) :)

[HispeedApproved]

When we had the UEFA cup final between Arsenal and Galatasaray in 2000, there were around 40 or 50 more aircraft, most of them departed late evening/night. We used a runway (12/30) for most of the parking, trouble was that people couldn't enter on the tarmac, so all aircrafts had to wait for a gate and a truck!

The airport was divided in a turkish half and british half for security reasons. Maybe the should have done the same with the city! :eek:

Cheers from Copenhagen! :p

[Findo]

Och No Hispeed. We intend having a German half, a Spannish half and a wee Scottish half (malt) just for fun !!

Looking forward to watching the game ... in London that night !!

[translations provided if required]

[EGPFlyer]

I'm sure as hell not looking forward to it. We are expecting around 30 biz jets in glasgow and it is busy enough on a wednesday already!

The only good thing is that its all overtime! :D :D


radar707
all the biz jets are staying once they drop the pax.

[Henrietta Horsebox]

My techie amigos tell me that there was a suggestion (from Scotland) that it might be a good idea to cancel the cutover thing that means SWIMM happens. The Swanwick big cheeses thought this not a good idea so it's going ahead.

A source close to a Swanwick supervisor said that the last time this happened 'there was chaos' and this was during winter schedules.

The thought of several 747 loads of beered-up footy fans waiting for slots through Swanwick airspace (if it's actually opening that night) doesn't bear thinking about, does it?

[HispeedApproved]

A bit on the sarcastic side Findo? :D

What I meant was that somebody trashed our beautiful capital pretty good.
I'm not sure if it was the turks or the british who started it, in fact i'm not even sure they were watching the game! ;)

Best of luck to the scottish! (and the spanish, certainly NOT the germans...)

[no translations needed, I prefer to stay ignorant...] :cool:

[BEXIL160]

Henrietta....

Actually the last DD&C (SWIMM = Swanwick In Manual Mode for those who are still mystified) went rather well at Swanwick........ but then the traffic levels had been reduced to near zero by 2330 local and were not allowed to increase until 0200ish local.

Might I suggest that the last departure from EGPF/PH/PK heading "down south", needs to be away by 2230 local at the latest...... no, ain't gonna happen is it?

I hope NATS management have an answer when those "Beered up footy fans" run amok in EGPK/PF/PH becasue their return flights have been delayed by the DD&C.

BEX

[Ayr-Rage]

Another rumour from this morning is that some of the Spanish traffic will be routed down through Irish airspace and the Tango routes to avoid LACC.
The watch that are on at ScACC that night are fully prepared for being rather busy and have staffed it accordingly.
Who in their infinite wisdom could not sanction a 24 hour delay into whatever needs to be done at Swanwick and with NAS ?
This will make us look really good to our European colleagues.

[BEXIL160]

Yes, the Tango routes will work, But it's adding an awful lot of extra track miles just because "The Largest (non-) Operational ACC in Europe" has to be completely shut down every 28 days .

BEX

[Bigears]

Tango routes = more loss of revenue = deeper mire :(

[tug3]

Bigears - Not a total loss of revenue - Tango routes controlled by Shanwick = Prestwick OACC = NATS!

[NERC Dweller]

It's only adaptation changes going out next week.

Are there any external centre changes happening that night that force the timing of the change?

BEXIL - We don't need to DD&C every 28 days, it is nice to restart the computers but is not essential.

[Bigears]

Tug 3, no, not a total loss, but its a damn sight cheaper to fly in OAC airspace than domestic, therefore a lot less income. Still, I suppose it gets the Shanwick traffic figures up :D

[WetFeet]

Actually the Tango routes don't add that much to the distance, hence the reason there are several flights each day from Scotland that go that way anyway.

As for the loss of revenue, that has been happening every day anyway with the NERC route restrictions taking trans-atlantic flights out of Scottish and into Irish airspace, or out of London and into France.

It doesn't take a computer shut down to lose revenue.

[BEXIL160]

NERC Dweller...

DDC not required every 28 days?

Oh? I stand corrected, thank you. I was under the impression that these would be required as per the AIRAC cycle.

So when DO we need to shut the whole ops room down and run away into the TDU next door... I mean DD&C?

I may have confused matters here. SWIMM doesn't neccesarily mean we're doing the DD&C. We can stay in the normal ops room for SWIMM, but not for DD&C.

Brilliant system innit?

Rgds BEX

[Bigears]

Wetfeet, I agree, but when the pips are squeeking and economies are being made, it gives a bad impression to staff and customers.
Just seems like a windfall opportunity to get some much-needed cash is being thrown away.

[Captain Mayday]

Lack of awareness or respect that there is life outside NERC and One Kemble Street seems to dominate NATS thinking these days.

If it's not filling the pages of "NATS Newds" with self-absorbed OKS waffle and interviews with company accountants, then it's continuing with planned shutdowns when operational issues and wiser heads should prevail.

But then again what would ATCOs know about it.:rolleyes:

[NERC Dweller]

BEXIL - I think we are confusing each other :)

DD&C - Deploy, Download and Cutover. Running into the TDU in other words. This is required at LACC when either the NERC Adaptation or software needs to be changed. So it would be on the AIRAC cycle - if the AIRAC contained anything that affected NERC. I don't believe there are any AIRAC changes in July or August so no need for a DDC.

SWIMM - Swanwick in Manual Mode. NAS is unavailable, but you stay in the OPS. At least with NERC you have several hours worth of flight data available in the SFS

Is this how you understand things?

[BEXIL160]

YES :) :) :)

[10W]

Another factor is that MNPS Approval and the carraige of HF radio are required for the Tango Routes.

Not sure how many operating the charters will have that level of equipment fit.

[WetFeet]

MNPS approval is only required if operating above F280 so if no approval is held then they can go below that or above F410.

Having seen the list of proposed flights, many are operated by airlines that already use the Tango routes, others are B747's and Airbuses etc so are likely to have MNPS and even RVSM approval. The only ones that might be questionnable are the 40 or so exec jets.

The Tango routes are not compulsory. If the airlines don't want to use them they don't have to, They are being recommended because the airports need the flights off asap as they can't handle all those aeroplanes and passengers milling around. The Tango routes are being offered to get the planes off and to avoid the delays caused by the NERC reduced capacity.

And don't forget, the Tango routes are available 24/7. They are normally used to avoid delays in France etc but I believe their use has increased since NERC went on line. If the routes weren't being offered on 15th then my guess is the airlines would refile for the Tangos as soon as they picked up their delays. By bringing these routes to their attention now we are just preventing refiling and associated confusion.

However, as suggested, delaying the NERC shutdown, or whatever it is, would be the best, and logical, solution to all this.

[Findo]

Highspeed the reply wasn't sarcastic just a wee bit of Scottish humour.

The forecast is looking like possible wet and SW wind. A busy westbound Oceanic day ?


From another newsgroup the Edinburgh traffic on the 15th / 16th looks pretty substantial. Considering they and Prestwick are expecting less than Glasgow I would say the whole period is going to be interesting .... :eek: :eek:


Flight Code Aircraft Arrive/Depart To/From
ELD111/112 D11 0900/0030 16th MAD/MAD
YW5460 CRJ 0905/NS DNR/DNR
GCR338/339 72S 0930/0300 16th MAD/MAD
IB5728/5525 320 0935/1025 MAD/MAD
IB5722/5537 320 0955/1045 MAD/MAD
EAF4062/4063 742 1030/0205 16th MAD/MAD
MON8041/8040 AB6 1040/0155 16th MAD/MAD
ELD113/114 D11 1045/0001 16th MAD/MAD
DE9152 B763 1050/NS CGN/DNR
MON8053/8052 AB6 1055/0210 16th MAD/MAD
TRA8601/8602 B738 1045/0115 16th MAD/MAD
IB5734/5533 320 1100/1200 MAD/MAD
EEX2151 B1900 1120/NS CGN/CGN
AEY1580/1581 D1C 1140/0630 MAD/MAD
YSS9687/9688 L15 1150/0230 16th MAD/MAD
SWL2761/2762 742 1215/0315 16th MAD/MAD
SWL2763/2764 742 1245/0315 16th MAD/MAD
MMZ3331/3332 L15 1405/0345 16th MAD/MAD
IB5790/5527 320 1415/1515 MAD/MAD
IB5750/5577 M87 1525/1615 MAD/MAD
IB5738/5739 320 1625/0125 16th MAD/MAD
IB5748/5719 340 1630/0130 16th MAD/MAD
IB5786/5787 340 1640/0140 16th MAD/MAD
IB5778/5791 320 1645/0445 16th MAD/MAD

Thurs 16th May

Flight Code Aircraft Arrive/Depart To/From
IB5574/5757 320 0015/0315 MAD/MAD
IB5532/5735 320 0110/0210 MAD/MAD
IB5522/5711 320 0205/0305 MAD/MAD
IB5528/5761 M87 0210/0310 MAD/MAD
IB5502/5797 320 0300/0500 MAD/MAD

CRJ - Canadair Regional Jet
D11, D1C= DC10
AB6 = A300-600
M87 = MD87
L15 = L1011-500
763 = 767-300
320 = A320
340 = A340
72S = 727
742 = 747-200

[The Fat Controller]

From reading this and the replies to my post in the NATS forum on the same subject, I am glad to hear that those of us at the coal face agree we should put the customer first and do our own "housekeeping" at a more sensible time.
I hope Mr Everitt knows what is planned for Wednesday night, and in the event that several thousand soccer fans and UEFA officials get seriously delayed going home from this football showcase event, has an answer as to why we could not have been "the world leaders in Air Traffic Management" on this occasion !

[surfingatco]

You guys up at EGPX/EGPK - just make sure the last Ryanair flight on Tuesday gets in okay. I'm coming up for the match!

I was at PF for the last one - days off fortunately. Game was crap - George Square after brill! Was stuck in a traffuc jam at 2am the next morning!

Anyone going to the Boswell Hotel for a pre match swally?

[EGPFlyer]

Some of us are going to be working an 18 hour shift on Wednesday so no football/pissup for me! :mad:

[Numpo-Nigit]

My enquiries suggest that there are major airspace changes within Brest airspace (which abuts a major part of NERC airspace) being introduced at this AIRAC date, so it would seem that, on this occasion, NERC management MAY be right in refusing to allow a postponement of the shutdown.

However, how they are going to convey this message in a manner that calms several thousand inebriated and jubilant/suicidal football fans remains to be seen!

I understand that the issue is already causing grave concern to Strathclyde Police, amongst others.

[The Fat Controller]

Heard a rumour this afternoon that the NAS shutdown has been postponed.
Maybe e-mailing a link to this thread to Mr Everitt wasn't such a bad idea after all.............

[bill]

Perhaps someone from management would be decent enough to tell the workers what the plan is...

[Take 5]

DD&C Shutdown has been delayed 24hrs until Thursday night. Good luck D watch. Briefings hastily arranged for 1400 today and Wednesday for staff on Thurs night.

[MACC Man-a man!]

Big meeting today between LACC, ScACC and MACC. Routes and MDIs agreed - some avoiding LKS/NSEA bandbox etcetera. Tango routes will be used a lot. S29 at MACC will open til 0300 so I'm told!

[250 kts]

Isn't Sector 29 a 24 hour sector then???????????

[160to4DME]

MACC Man-a man!

When did you last do a night duty ??!!

160

[Attendance Monitor]

Daventry and Clacton sectors closed tonight. Another blow to European unity. Hope you Swanwick boys are proud of yourselves tonight. Just what in h*ll is going on down there?:mad:

[C U JIMMY]

Attendance Monitor, just finished a night shift at Swanwick with no f**king staff because of sickness/ORO screwups, and the inability of management to understand the need for contingency planning.
So don't start wagging the finger at us when you know fine well that we will always do the best we can.
We are playing at the same game as you:
TRYING TO PROVIDE THE BEST SERVICE WE CAN DESPITE OUR MANAGEMENT IMPOSED RESTRAINTS:mad: :mad:

[The Fat Controller]

Looks like everybody got away to Spain and Germany OK.
The few that were planned via Daventry airspace got direct BHD and seemed quite happy to head off that way when we explained it was to avoid a restriction.....even the one going to Palma.
I sympathise with those of you at LACC, our rostering at ScACC for last night was adjusted to cope, and the only complaint I have is that my calorie intake was greater than anticipated due to the goodies that some of my managers and colleagues generously provided !
At least we all didn't have to cope with the NAS shutdown, and the DD&Cwas postponed down south.

[EGPFlyer]

A big thank you to the guys and gals working at Glasgow yesterday. You made our job with the biz jets a hell of a lot easier and I don't think we got in the way too much shuttling back and forth from the short.....Roll on 2008!!! :D

[BDiONU]

NERC Dweller

No AIRAC in June but deffo a DD&C in July (10/11th) whilst we drop Emergency Build 5-4-B onto the system (which I'm sure you had a hand in coding anyway!:) )

Last nights went OK, thankfully enough staff on watch, unlike the footie night!!!

[Nogbad the Bad]

ATTENDANCE MONITOR.........It would be far better if you were to direct your vehemence at the MANAGERS down at Swanwick, and not the poor s*ds who have to put up with being (so called)managed by that particular bunch of dunderheads.

[Attendance Monitor]

Apologies for giving offence. My 'Swanwick Boys' comment wasn't targetted at ATC staff specifically. I'm just extremely frustrated by our company's inability to deliver a decent service, and I have to say not a little ashamed to tell people I'm an ATCO. :( :( :( . I understand that there are about 380 (?) valid ATCO's at Swanwick-wasn't it possible on the 16/17th night shift to muster even 1 valid ATCO to man Daventry on a 2 hours on, 30 minutes off basis at a reduced flow rate, to provide some degree of service? How many were sick? What notice was there? Give us some info. to go on. There is next to nothing in the way of the old 'open and honest' communication coming out of Swanwick senior management at the moment. We all need to be pulling together to get NATS out the mire, or the lurking SERCO will strike.
Have a good summer :D :D :D