Retirement Age and Crewing Requirements

[BGQ]

Apparently the ICAO ANC has approved the proposal to limit all pilots in commercial operations to pilots up to their 65th birthday. They have also approved the removal of all pairing restrictions beyond age 60. This will become effective on the 14th of November 2014 when this will become the ICAO Standard.

[roulishollandais]

Thank you to all these who battled for that.

Mean experience of pilots will be increasing.

Helping young retiring Military Pilots to get airline pilots would help a Country to keepc savoir-faire and benefit of better selection, formation and experrience.

[BOAC]

Not such good news for those who are currently operating over 65.

[Aluminium shuffler]

That is good news. Now to get the retirement age dropped completely - my generation in the UK won't get a pension until 69, so what are we meant to do for the intervening 4 years? I suspect other nationalities face a similar problem. Many of us can't afford significant private pensions, even on company schemes, to make up the difference, and contractors get no company pensions at all. I don't see why the authorities or companies should be able to impose ageist regulations when EU policies demand otherwise. Surely any pilot should have the right to continue working as long as they are fit and competent. as checked by medicals and LPCs? Let us have the choice of retiring at any age, not just prior to 65.

Now cue the whining from young FOs about selfishness of captains refusing to hand over their jobs, ironically unable to see the hypocrisy of their selfishness in craving of ultra-quick commands and how easily and quickly many of them got their first airline jobs compared to older generations...:ugh:

[Herod]

Alumimium Shuffler; I've been giving this one a bit of thought. It would make a very interesting case if someone actually brought it to court that the government is taking away a person's means of earning a salary whilst not entitling them to a pension. I'm sure the European Court of Human Rights would have something to say. I wish good luck to anyone who tries. I only had four employers in forty years and two of them were for twelve and twenty-four; and yes, I know how lucky I am.

[SMT Member]

Surely anyone who joined the game would have known there's going to be a gap between retiring and being eligible for a state pension, if - that is - the country they live in hands out a meaningful state pension at all.

Yes, the age for eligibility has been rising all over Europe, but so has the retirement age for pilots. 55, at one time, then 60, now 65.

Thus, one could possibly argue that anyone who failed to make plans for the gap years only has himself to blame. Perhaps the answer is NOT to continue flying until you're at an age where you are, for all intents and purposes, unemployable in another field. Perhaps time could have been used to learn a new trick or two, maybe create a small business, and drop out early while there is still a chance to have a go at something else, something without a mandatory retirement age. If the flying bug is still there, join an aeroclub and muck about in a bugsmasher or, even better, a glider.

[His dudeness]

Surely anyone who joined the game would have known there's going to be a gap between retiring and being eligible for a state pension, if - that is - the country they live in hands out a meaningful state pension at all.
Thus, one could possibly argue that anyone who failed to make plans for the gap years only has himself to blame.

As a non-airliner I have planned to work to 65 and get my pension at 65.

Along comes politics and all of a sudden 67 is the new pension age (Germany)

So, no, I didn´t think there would be a gap, retirement age has been 65 for a long time in Germany, actually there was a time not very long ago, when early retirement was encouraged by politicians and a lot of folks retired at 57, 58, 59 ish...

Like in so many fields, the politicians screw our life up by changing the rules and now I should blame myself? Don´t think so...

[roulishollandais]

Surely any pilot should have the right to continue working as long as they are fit and competent. as checked by medicals and LPCs? Let us have the choice of retiring at any age, not just prior to 65Agreed. Giving a limit for age for a job is "discrimination". We are suicidal to put all the persons on the side of economical world after some age. That is the new combat we need to start around the world. If our economy should be safe doubling the number of workers would double the wealth. But young people must help their old parents who let them grow when their health is no more good enough to sell their workIt would make a very interesting case if someone actually brought it to court that the government is taking away a person's means of earning a salary whilst not entitling them to a pension. I'm sure the European Court of Human Rights would have something to sayNot the European Court of Human Rights but the EU Luxembourg Court.The first protects only rights included in the Human Rights Convention, and there is no protection there of what they call economical rights. The a.14 of the Human Rights Convention protects against "discrimination" but only if another article of the Convention is concerned (i.e. right to have a family, or equity in justice).
But the EU Luxembourg Court protects against such discrimination, it was that Court who gave right to pilots to fly until 65.If the flying bug is still there, join an aeroclub and muck about in a bugsmasher or, even better, a glider.... we did that already before getting a job as pilot !
We are flying in a garbagge world due to economical garbagge due to financial garbagge. We must stop the banksters and their beancounsters who respects only "possible" statistical air safety. I hope young people will understand that the oldest people are not their ennemis, and the young FO have to learn with empathy from the older pilots who were able to survive. (So do the elephants in nature !)

[747-419]

Capt's could become S/O's at 65. Don't think this rule will apply to S/O's as they aren't occupying a window seat in the critical stages of flight.

[fergineer]

As "other" aircrew I found myself out of a job well before my retirement age so what is the difference suddenly for the two winged master race If you cannot plan for your retirement there must be some very strange reasons. In my 30 years of flying I managed to save for the retirement and I still have a few years to go yet. Find another job and live life a little.

[mustafagander]

This idea has no legs in many (most) Western countries which ban all forms of discrimination.

[macdo]

I was talking about this issue to a Union rep a couple of days ago and his take was that to have a compulsory retirement age less than the state pensionable age contravenes current EU age discrimination laws and was open to legal challenge. IMHO, by the time I retire the pilot retirement age will be at least 66, but along the way there will be numerous fudges and stalling tactics from employers attempting to avoid paying pilots to do nothing or little or paying them off.
WRT early retirement, I'd be only to happy to go next year at 55, unfortunately successive governments have robbed us of pension entitlement and tax efficiency's to make that possible.

[sapco2]

The first age band in the UK to be affected by the shift in retirement rules are those born after 1953 - for them the retirement age is now 66. I was born in 1954 so I plan on retiring from aviation in 2020 in accordance with the new regulations. I've already spoken to my boss about this and he knows it's just another can of worms waiting to be opened!
He said he will give me another job - maybe a pushback driver for the last year!

[MaxReheat]

I'm sure BALPA is already on the case.;)

[rogerg]

I cant see what all the fuss is about. All my flying life I knew I would have to leave flying before the state retirement age. But then you would not want to live on the state pension anyway, and you did your utmost to make sure you had a half decent arrangements to live after retirement. For some unlucky people it did not work but for most it did. Whatever you do someone will lose out. That's life!!.

[Herod]

rogerg; are you sure about that? All my commercial life the retirement age ( the age at which the licence validity lapses) has been 65. Granted, lots of companies had a retirement age of 60, but that didn't prevent taking a position with one that didn't. In fact, my old company had the option for jet captains to transfer to turbo-prop captain at 60 if desired. No, it didn't clog the system, since mosts F.O.s wanted to transfer turbo RHS to jet RHS rather than turbo LHS. This new regulation would appear to create a gap where the licence is no longer valid, but the state pension is not available. I agree that the state pension isn't liveable, but some people, through no fault of their own, don't have any other option.

[OASIS06]

Herod, I do not know what your licence says but my EASA ATPL, renewed earlier this year at age 66, states 'This licence shall remain in force for the holder's lifetime unless revoked, suspended or varied. The privileges of the licence shall be exercised only if the holder has a valid medical certificate for the required privilege.'
As I renewed my class 1 medical last week I intend to continue using the licence for some time yet and am in the process of adding an additional rating.
I wonder what the reaction of current 'Corporate' pilots and the over 65s in Australia and New Zealand will be?

[sapco2]

Fantastic - way to go OASIS06!
As it happens my EASA licence reads the same so hoping I can pull it off till 66 at least!

[flyboyike]

Now cue the whining from young FOs about selfishness of captains refusing to hand over their jobs, ironically unable to see the hypocrisy of their selfishness in craving of ultra-quick commands and how easily and quickly many of them got their first airline jobs compared to older generations...


I'm now in my 8th year in the right seat of a regional jet and on my second airline. Rapid upgrades? This is my second month off reserve since 2009.

[Lookleft]

It might be against the law to discriminate on the basis of age but that just means companies can't officially state that applicants above a certain age need not apply. There are always means of stating why a person is not suitable for a position which has nothing to do with there age. So it doesn't matter what skills you have outside of aviation if you are older than 50 forget it you will find it difficult to change careers. Given the change of government rules regarding retirement age I would not be relying on the government for any sort of pension. Fortunately in what many consider an aviation backwater (Australia), a somewhat enlightened government in the 80's made it compulsory for employers to pay into a superannuation fund currently at 9% of salary. Not a perfect system as various governments since then have changed the tax rulings regarding super, but they realized a long way back that the government could not afford to keep supplying indexed pensions to a rapidly ageing population and a shrinking workforce.

actually there was a time not very long ago, when early retirement was encouraged by politicians and a lot of folks retired at 57, 58, 59 ish...

That statement is precisely why you don't rely on the government to provide for you in old age.

[SilsoeSid]

Page 13;
http://www.icao.int/safety/Documents/ICAO_2013-Safety-Report_FINAL.pdf

[sapco2]

Yes but that's according to an icao flight safety report. EASA licence regulations contradict the statement on page 13.
EASA ATPLs read: "this licence shall remain in force for the holder's lifetime unless revoked, suspended or varied".
There is certainly no mention of any such restrictions applying to my licence.
If the licence isn't valid for life then I think the onus is on EASA to clear up this rather important ambiguity!

[deltahotel]

I guess the simple way would be to state that Class 1 medicals would not be issued beyond age 65, which would allow the licence to remain valid for eg PPL etc.

[Avenger]

The fact that the ICAO regulations may change does not effect the rights of individual operators to continue with the " combined 120 rule". This is not age discrimination etc etc, if an operator wants to let you fly a desk or just sit on the jump seat it's entirely up to them. Many companies have fixed term contracts, when the contract is up, thats it, game over. Personally, I have no desire whatsoever to fly until 65! I hope I will have earned enough to retire and enjoy life. I suspect the class one and other OMLs will do a fair bit of " natural culling"

[Herod]

I may be wrong, but my understanding is that, although the licence remains valid, it is not valid for scheduled passenger use beyond 65. I know of at least one person flying a jet as he approaches 70, but it is a private aeroplane. So, if you are flying a corporate jet, OK, but the majority of pilots are flying for the airlines. Don't say that pilots should have a private pension in place. Many had company schemes that went down the tube with the airline (think Robert Maxwell/BA helicopters), and the government guarantee has only been in place for a few years.

[lederhosen]

There are a number of people who could probably afford to retire but enjoy the flying and not necessarily because it is well paid! There seems to be sympathy for people who need the money. But why should people who are comfortably off, because they have been lucky with their working/private lives and happen to like the job, be considered selfish for wanting to continue flying for a living?

[Desert185]

lederhosen

But why should people who are comfortably off, because they have been lucky with their working/private lives and happen to like the job, be considered selfish for wanting to continue flying for a living?

Because the "guilty"party is someone else. I'm sure selfish would not be the descriptive adjective if the tables were turned. :rolleyes:

[lederhosen]

I am not sure I understand you Desert185. You seem to be in agreement with the statement that people who like flying should be considered selfish if they want to continue as long as they can. You then say that the guilty party is someone else. Are the authorities the guilty party (as you put it)? Or is someone else to blame and of what? Life is not always fair and I can accept that people envy or even resent others they perceive as getting a better crack of the whip.

Life expectancy and people's potential useful working life has increased. The skills required by an airline pilot have also changed. Not everything has got better. But flying a modern jet is definitely easier than flying used to be on earlier generations of aircraft. Conversely pilots have had to become more efficient, with longer working hours for less pay. There are also many more of us than there used to be with quite different life experiences from earlier generations. I am pretty sure I will not continue to 65. But I certainly do not think that those who do are selfish.

[beamer]

In the UK there are a good many pilots still working beyond the age of 60; sure, it is their legal right to do so and this number will surely increase as T's & C's are eroded over time. However, the majority in the current group who have elected to soldier on between 60 and 65 have spent the vast proportion of their time in the business under the clear assumption that they would have to retire from flying at 60 or in the case of BA and some others at 55. Those on 'golden' terms are exercising their rights but are nonetheless hindering progress from below.

This scenario will change over time as in the majority of airlines, the doors to the first class carriage are well and truly shut. Those pilots across the age spectrum who are not in the front part of the train will need to continue a little longer as they anxiously keep an eye on their money purchase pensions but at least we all know what the upper age limit is until those wise politicians in Europe change their minds yet again.

Of course, 65 is only a limit and is not compulsory contrary to popular opinion !

[Ramrise]

At least I will be among the most experienced FOs ever, before I get to fly as CDR on medium jets. I thank the older pilots who worked hard to raise the retirement age so that I could accumulate more hours before upgrading. Now, if only they would work towards making 70 the retirement age I would be even more experienced.

Talk about a screw job!!:eek::eek:

[Desert185]

Maybe I didn't state my opinion properly. I agree with you. When those younger folks become our age and perhaps decide to continue flying for whatever reason, they will not consider themselves selfish.

[flyboyike]

I don't know, Desert, the words "you'll pry that left seat only from my cold, dead hands", which I've now heard numerous times from the guys to whom I lovingly refer as "fossils" sound pretty selfish to me. I could, of course, be wrong.

[Desert185]

I understand. Why should leaving your profession be hinged on an arbitrary age while one still has the ability to perform? Why should only the older ones be labeled as being selfish?

It wasn't that long ago that gray hair was respected. Now it seems the young crowd talks slow to the older crowd. Well, if they enunciated properly we would have understood them the first time. :ok: Whatever...I told this one young lady that she didn't have to talk slower, as I was picking up what she was laying down. I got a nice smile as a result. Don't remember if she had tats and a nose ring, but I'm sure something was pierced.

Enjoying my senior discounts, while still flying heavies, but not in an airline environment. Given that, I couldn't possibly be selfish. :D

[flyboyike]

I understand. Why should leaving your profession be hinged on an arbitrary age while one still has the ability to perform? Why should only the older ones be labeled as being selfish?


They shouldn't be. I totally accept and acknowledge that my wanting to see some sort of career progression after almost a decade of at best stagnation, but mostly backward movement is selfish. I just don't understand why the older crowd refuses to acknowledge their selfishness as well or why in the rare cases when they do, somehow their selfishness is better than mine.

As for "still having the ability to perform", that's a whole separate conversation, isn't it?

[Aluminium shuffler]

I think there's a little mis-comparison going on here. Those who worked for companies with early retirement ages, such as 55 at BA and 60 at VA, tended to have rather generous final salary pensions or had private pensions that matured in the heydays before the financial collapse (my father gets every month what I can look forward to annually, such is the decline in private pension performance). As for those who say that the shortfall was known before the career was chosen, that is only true for those who took it up within the last couple of years - 65 has been a retirement age and pension qualifier for several decades now.

[sapco2]

I totally agree with Alumium shuffler, the goalposts have shifted so significantly that we can all expect to be much working longer. Sadly, gone are the days of gold plated pensions in the UK!

[beamer]

AS

Couple of points, personal pensions can be taken from 55 I believe whilst state pensions are being hoisted up to ages greater than 65 - worth a check.

[captplaystation]

To Ramrise & flyboyike I would say, if you don't like the rate of career progression where you currently are, instead of blaming the "dinosaurs", get off your @ss & take your evidently honed skills to where they will be better appreciated (I.E a company in some other country experiencing rapid expansion ) in other words put your money where your mouth is & demonstrate the "flexibility" many of us have HAD to show for decades.

You also seem to miss the fact that Command is not a foretold perogative & some of those who shout the loudest have been (in my experience ) amongst those who (despite "extensive" experience) have mystifyingly failed to make the cut when required to "walk the walk" as well as they "talk the talk".
Old age appears to start quite early for some folk , & those achieving Command at an advanced age don't always hack it. . . .is that a good reason to turf the "oldies " out ? Er, I somehow don't think so.

You may resent the crusty old bar-steward sitting next to you on top dollar for a few more years than you would like, but, in a different era to the one you have experienced, he has most likely earned it. Excuse us if we turn our hearing aids down a tad to muffle your whines.

[Desert185]

:D:ok:

I like it! Although, there are those who deserve the above and those who don't.

[flyboyike]

I like it! Although, there are those who deserve the above and those who don't.


I like it, too! Captplaystation openly displays the "I got mine, :mad: you!" mentality, and makes no apologies for it. I can respect that. It's when fossils start breaking into sob stories on how that have to "make up for what they've lost" (while acquiring Corvette #7 and ex-wife #6) that I feel like I'm being played.

[ShyTorque]

I like it, too! Captplaystation openly displays the "I got mine, :mad: you!" mentality, and makes no apologies for it.

Life has always been one long competition. We all have to compete despite the cloud cuckoo land education system of a few years back trying to make our younger generation think that everything will, or should, land on their plate "because it is their right". :hmm:

[flyboyike]

Let's not forget the older generation who think they deserve respect just by virtue of having gray hair. I mean, I got some of that, too.

I'm just saying let's discuss all generational deficiencies, not just some.

[Desert185]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert185
I like it! Although, there are those who deserve the above and those who don't.

Ike replies:

I like it, too! Captplaystation openly displays the "I got mine, you!" mentality, and makes no apologies for it. I can respect that. It's when fossils start breaking into sob stories on how that have to "make up for what they've lost" (while acquiring Corvette #7 and ex-wife #6) that I feel like I'm being played.

Not so fast, grasshopper. So when a "fossil" has no sob story, "Corvette #7 or ex-wife #6", staying on would be acceptable to you? How sensitive and considerate.

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but when I occupied the right seat I generally was respectful and limited my negative judgments of the guy on the on the left. Not every captain was worthy, but acting respectful was something ingrained in me at an early age. Was I envious? No, I looked forward to the day when I might have the capabilities (and assets) of the captains I admired, while being happy for their successes and considerate of life's pitfalls they might have encountered.

Life has surprises. Hope your's are all positive and your karma doesn't override your dogma.

[Capt Claret]

As has been said before on similar threads, when you guys/gals who are being "forced" to endure too long a period in the RHS, and not so respectfully suggest us old folk move on, move on yourselves and vacate the RHS so that the new sprogs can get into the SNJ, then I'll consider moving on for you. :ugh:

What relevance corvette #x has on anything is beyond me.

[galaxy flyer]

Flyboyike,

In 8 years and 2 airlines, you still haven't grasped the idea of seniority? I'm amazed. It simply means, you wait 'til your seniority number warrants the chance to upgrade-not more or less--you wait. Be patient, or as Capt Claret suggests, find a place in aviation where seniority doesn't rule.

[macdo]

Twas ever thus... years ago the fossilised remains of BA and others used to take their generous FS pensions and then walk into a direct command at the regional turbo prop operators. We all used to bitch about them nicking 'our' commands. Its only partially true, but was made somewhat worse when they used to brag about how they didn't really need to work and the TP job was just for pin money!
These days, we all get the opportunity to work an extra five years in the LH seat and those stuck in the RH seat just have to wait a bit longer, but will eventually have the same amount of years in the left. It just feels a bit raw now as we are still seeing the bulge of fossils created by the change in the law a few years back. My employer has published retirement figures that show a distinct bulge in 4 years time.
Also worth remembering that a fair few 15 year FO's earn as much as a year 1 skipper in Jet2, some even more.

[gulfairs]

In New Zealand the state law is one cannot be discriminated against due to race,color,religion or age.
But USA will not allow a captain of a heavy jet to be over 65,
so the flightless kiwi does not go to a us state as captain,
Most of the other routes of ANZ there is little problem.
I found ANZ a difficult airline to work for so I left at 50.
and then played at being an airline pilot until I was 56 and then gave it all away.
I have now had 28 real years of retirement and there are not enough days left to do all the things I want to do!
Flying used to be fun, but now its a trudge. one almost need a release note to use the toilet in nz aviation.

[747-419]

Most of the other routes of ANZ there is little problem

ANZ pilots over 65 can only fly to Aussie.

Any other route enters US or French airspace which apply the ICAO ruling hence no over 65's on the heavies which predominantly fly through these airspaces.

I found ANZ a difficult airline to work for so I left at 50

Its changed a lot since then and a pretty good outfit to work for now

[flyboyike]

In 8 years and 2 airlines, you still haven't grasped the idea of seniority? I'm amazed. It simply means, you wait 'til your seniority number warrants the chance to upgrade-not more or less--you wait.


I've grasped it very well, and by extension got to meet seniority's ugly sister whose name is Seniority Grab. You may recall that when age 65 was ratified, all those previously forced out by age 60 had the chance to come back as F/Os. I don't know of ANY who took that chance, which tells me the issue wasn't that they wanted to keep flying "out of the love of it". They wanted to keep flying AT THE TOP OF THE LIST. That's not quite the same thing, is it?

[flyboyike]

Life has surprises. Hope your's are all positive and your karma doesn't override your dogma.


It does indeed, and mine so far have included two furloughs (one of them permanent due to company shutdown) and, as I said earlier, this month is only the second time since 2009 that I'm not on reserve (to say it more clearly for the Grandpas, second line in over four years). I guess my dogma has already been overriden, since I'm still waiting for that first positive surprise. Mind you, I survived the bloodbath of the past decade better than many. I've been able to hold on to my house (however barely), escaped bankruptcy, and since a woman stupid enough to marry me hasn't been born yet, I haven't had the pleasure of a divorce.

[rogerg]

don't know of ANY who took that chance, which tells me the issue wasn't that they wanted to keep flying "out of the love of it". They wanted to keep flying AT THE TOP OF THE LIST.
You know one now, me.

[flyboyike]

Good to know, attaboy.

[Enecosse]

This thread is a little 2 dimensional and boring, left seat right seat, old fart young whippersnapper. Actually its interesting because of some deeper social consequences. If anyone can be arsed Google Baby Boomers and add words like effect, legacy.
I am one by the way.

[dash6]

Also trans Atlantic. How many Old fart Brits would change seats to live in Ormond beach? (Not possible I know) Apples and oranges.

[galaxy flyer]

Flyboyike,

Not true, there was a "non-retroactivity" section in the law; once past 60, no going back. They didnt come back because they couldn't. Your naming it, "seniority grab" implies they changed the law, THEY DID NOT, got it? The ICAO rule changed it, PERIOD.

As somene noted, don't like the change Congress passed, go elsewhere in aviation-overseas, corporate, whatever.

[Desert185]

galaxyflyer

Exactly correct. I went to the back seat (for the first time) while the company continued to drag on negotiations for the next contract. Two and a half years later, the contract was signed (with an increase in retirement benefits) and I retired shortly thereafter. Perhaps this will make Flyboyike feel a little better that someone is sharing his pain.

[flyboyike]

Flyboyike,

Not true, there was a "non-retroactivity" section in the law; once past 60, no going back. They didnt come back because they couldn't.


You're wrong, galaxy flyer. Here's what the law actually says

‘‘(1) NONRETROACTIVITY.—No person who has attained 60
years of age before the date of enactment of this section may
serve as a pilot for an air carrier engaged in covered operations
unless—

‘‘(A) such person is in the employment of that air
carrier in such operations on such date of enactment as
a required flight deck crew member; or

‘‘(B) such person is newly hired by an air carrier as
a pilot on or after such date of enactment without credit
for prior seniority or prior longevity for benefits or other
terms related to length of service prior to the date of
rehire under any labor agreement or employment policies
of the air carrier.

So, yes, they absolutely could come back, they just couldn't get their old seats back, which is when all their great love of flying promptly evaporated.

You don't have to believe me, read it for yourself here:

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-110publ135/pdf/PLAW-110publ135.pdf

[Niallo]

What about the passenger's opinion? I prefer a captain around 50 yrs old, and a first officer around 30 yrs old to give me confidence that maturity, fitness and youth are properly represented in the cockpit.

[exeng]

'What about the passengers opinion.'

Well you can have an opinion but I think your particular preferences will count for very little.
Most pax seem to be of the opinion that the cheapest flight is the best.

[Desert185]

Flyboyike and galaxy flyer may be saying the same thing. If you were still on the property (as an FE, for example) you could bid Captain or FO according to your seniority and when a vacancy existed. You could not bump someone already in the seat.

If you left the employ of the company at age 60, there was no coming back unless you were rehired at the bottom of the seniority list (not likely).

[roulishollandais]

Interest to have some younger pilots is to maintain some transmission of knowledge. Younger people are there to learn to be able to replace the older one when the latter retire with their experience.
Degradation of formation and of morality is a big issue with youth. We often see 20 years old boys and girls ignoring definition of pressure, or logarithm and having unsafe life claiming they want to get pilots and chosing to buy fake licenses if possible and accepting fraud to get and keep the job. It is not only in India or Vietnam. Older people know it is dangerous, want to stay alive for their family and have a greater sense of responsibility. They know they are not God, and they will still do failures as everybody. Young people think they will never do mistakes and were living less meteorologic extreme conditions.
"And it is better to be an old pilot (who was able to survive) than a good pilot (having overconfidence in himself)"

[galaxy flyer]

Desert185,

Correct, if you stayed as an F/E past 60, on the date of the age 65 rule, you could bid back to Captain. How many F/Es were there at the passenger carriers in 2007? Not bloody many, perhaps ZERO. If you turned 60 the day prior to the change, you were retired and not coming back.

As to flyboyike, we just hired a guy into corporates from 121 RJs, no seniority here, he'll probably make captain in two years, regardless. All are guys are captains and when ready fly and are paid as such. So, Ike, put your money where your fingers are.

[DozyWannabe]

Jebus - the level of bitterness I'm picking up is not only worrying, but genuinely depressing.

Look - I may not be a pilot, but in my industry I'd be considered in my prime in terms of age and experience. But nevertheless I'd be a complete fool to disregard knowledge and advice whether it comes from those who are more experienced or from those who are relatively new to the game. I'd be very surprised if it worked differently in your area of expertise.

[sapco2]

It certainly needed to be said DW :ok:

[flyboyike]

As to flyboyike, we just hired a guy into corporates from 121 RJs, no seniority here, he'll probably make captain in two years, regardless. All are guys are captains and when ready fly and are paid as such. So, Ike, put your money where your fingers are.


GF, just because I call a spade a spade doesn't mean I want to get out of the airlines. There's nothing in the world I'd rather be doing, which is why I haven't quit so far, when many people probably would have and did.

Corporate flying is not for me, I'm not that kind of guy. In your particular case, I think you'll agree with me that your operation is far from typical, both with regards to the equipment you operate and the kind of flying you do. Incidentally, one of my airline's divisions does some flying sort of similar to yours with E-190s.

[flyboyike]

Look - I may not be a pilot, but in my industry I'd be considered in my prime in terms of age and experience. But nevertheless I'd be a complete fool to disregard knowledge and advice whether it comes from those who are more experienced or from those who are relatively new to the game. I'd be very surprised if it worked differently in your area of expertise.


The knowledge and advice are not the issue here, DW, although you'd be surprised how often it is in aviation that age and experience don't bring wisdom, but just show up by their lonesome. I've flown with some very experienced people who were/are consummate aviators, and I've flown with others whom I wouldn't trust with a Yugo, despite their fat logbooks. In fact, I, too, would be very surprised if in YOUR area of expertise there weren't at least some gummers who are about as incompetent as a bag of hammers. That's just life.

[Emma Ritz]

I'm a pretty long serving FO now. I, personally, don't want to retire at 65, I would like to keep flying as long as I can pass the medicals, 1) because I enjoy it and 2) because I'll probably need the money.

Therefore yeah, although my own career progression has been affected by this age 55 to 60 to 65 retirement age increase, and yes of course I'd love to get my hands on the LHS right the hell now, it would be hypocritical of me in the extreme to slag off at the captains who have been given the chance to occupy it for another few years. Because realistically, if I was in their shoes, of course I'd do exactly the bloody same, and tell any FO's who whinged about it to cry me a river.

Lucky break for you guys, well done, enjoy the extra years.

[DozyWannabe]

The knowledge and advice are not the issue here, DW, although you'd be surprised how often it is in aviation that age and experience don't bring wisdom, but just show up by their lonesome. I've flown with some very experienced people who were/are consummate aviators, and I've flown with others whom I wouldn't trust with a Yugo, despite their fat logbooks. In fact, I, too, would be very surprised if in YOUR area of expertise there weren't at least some gummers who are about as incompetent as a bag of hammers. That's just life.

Couple of points - yes, I've encountered experienced folks who can be a liability - not to mention relative newbies who could run rings around me! But I hope I retain enough humility to know that generalising on that basis alone would be wrong-headed prejudice born of arrogance on my part. The smart approach is to treat every colleague on an individual basis and not make assumptions.

Secondly, you seem like an intelligent guy. Surely you can see that the bitter and dismissive attitude you're displaying here smacks of all the characteristics you find so abhorrent in those you're criticising!

[flyboyike]

Secondly, you seem like an intelligent guy. Surely you can see that the bitter and dismissive attitude you're displaying here smacks of all the characteristics you find so abhorrent in those you're criticising!


I certainly can see it. You told me yourself that "I'd be a fool not to take the advice etc...of the elder sages...", so I'm taking it by the bucketful, the good and the bad, like the good little whippersnapper I am.

[flyboyike]

I'm a pretty long serving FO now. I, personally, don't want to retire at 65, I would like to keep flying as long as I can pass the medicals, 1) because I enjoy it and 2) because I'll probably need the money.


It's really a question of budgeting, isn't it? My personal rule is that if I can't afford it on first- or at best second-year F/O salary, I don't do it. I figure I'll be on first and second-year pay a few times yet, so I don't want to dig myself a hole I will need to age 65 and beyond to dig myself out of. Then again, I came out of the Soviet system, so I don't need that much. One house, one car (although presently I fully disclose that I own three), food, uniforms and some casual clothes, and I'm good to go.

I fully realize some people have more expensive tastes/habits, I know quite a few.

[Herod]

I fully realize some people have more expensive tastes/habits, I know quite a few.

One ex-wife is a mistake. Two or more are an expensive habit. ;)

[ShyTorque]

Tell you what, FBM, why not set an example and volunteer to retire at 60?

I would love to retire at 60 if I could b. well afford to live on what I would then be obliged to do.

Unfortunately, I've watched my supposedly "low risk" pension funds going well down the tubes over the years, and also my 25 year mortgage payments fail to pay off the house, too (let alone provide a useful lump sum in addition). Even so, tbh I'm probably better placed than some, being still with the original wife after over thirty five years.

Many of us would have been better off stashing loose change in the mattress. I've recently been informed that I now can't get my state pension till the age of 66. The government are possibly hoping a few will pop their clogs by the end of the extra year, reducing the load on the younger generation.

So I'm going to have to carry on trucking for as long as my health allows me to, and I will. But don't worry, in my branch of aviation the captain sits in the right hand seat, so it won't affect you one bit.

[pilotchute]

I worked in ops at an small airline for a while and we had a few Capts at or over 60. I know this isn't always the case but I don't think any of them needed the job. They all seemed to own multiple properties and some even had second sources of income (small business).

Where I come from if you have even moderate assets you don't qualify for the state pension. Saying they have to stay until pension age won't work here.

On another thread someone wrote, "Capt John Smith of BA" won't retire because then he will just be "John Smith".

[IcePack]

Worst thing that happened to me is the compulsory retirement age going from 60 to 65.
Her in doors says why give up the money!
B**er:(

[Capt Claret]

I know this isn't always the case but I don't think any of them needed the job.

Whether they need the job or not is irrelevant to EVERYONE except the "worker".

[Capn Bloggs]

someone wrote, "Capt John Smith of BA" won't retire because then he will just be "John Smith".
Works for me. Clears the line at the Aldi when I announce "I'm Captain Bloggs!". They even get out of the way when I'm not in uniform. Dunno how I'll go when I retire...maybe I'll just tell a fib and still call myself Captain...

Whether they need the job or not is irrelevant to EVERYONE except the "worker".
You greedy old bugger, Claret! :E

[Huck]

Here's the takeaway: It's all whose ox is being gored….

[flyboyike]

Tell you what, FBM, why not set an example and volunteer to retire at 60?


I'll be gone long before that, especially if this next decade is anything like the last. Scraping the bottom may be fun now, but I highly doubt I have the intestinal fortitude for 27 more years of it (or even 23). In fact, once my house is paid off (should be by the time I'm 50), I may give up on the idea of full-time employment in general.

[BGQ]

When this thread was started I thought that the pilot community might actually debate the scientific merits of the restrictions rather than the selfishness accusations of both old and young alike.

Young pilots accuse older pilots of losing their skills and abilities while older pilots suggest the young need to gain experience. Both could be right. Personally I have witnessed both young and old pilots who should not be in the game any longer.

If this change is not to be discrimination in disguise then the questions we should be examining are

(1) Is there sufficient evidence that 65 is the age that ability reduction and health risk in pilots changes to an unacceptable level?
(2) Did the decision makers base their decision on sound scientific research?
(3) If the age at which ability reduction and health risk varies among individuals is there a way to manage variable retirement ages to ensure discrimination is avoided.

Safety should be the only prerogative for the ICAO decision makers.

Financial and welfare factors of individuals may be a consideration for those approaching early retirement but not for imposing limits. Promotion opportunities for younger pilots should also not be a consideration

[ShyTorque]

In fact, once my house is paid off (should be by the time I'm 50), I may give up on the idea of full-time employment in general.

Yes, well good luck. i once said, in the naivety of youth, that I'd do the same. The realities of life got in the way of that cunning plan.

[flyboyike]

No, naivete of youth is how people end up buying 5 BMWs the minute they upgrade. There is nothing cunning about living within one's means. I'll grant you it's not terribly fashionable anymore, but it's certainly not cunning.

[FlyingStone]

No, naivete of youth is how people end up buying 5 BMWs the minute they upgrade. There is nothing cunning about living within one's means.

I have to agree with you. I think everybody wants to earn enough to make a decent living, although some people (and not just pilots) have to show how much they earn to everybody, albeit with plenty different reasons (to be popular, to get laid, etc.). This of course costs quite a lot of money and in the end they end up perhaps even worse off than somebody with an average salary - especially on the long term - when they retire and paycheck stops coming.

[sapco2]

Lots of assumptions being made here folk on how others spend their money!

I for one have never bothered with the flash cars, or flash holidays for that matter! My greatest luxury was in sending my only son to a private school and it was money well spent now it's time to make provision for my own future and that of my wife's too.

The stock market collapse followed by the global depression wiped out enormous chunks from many private pension funds and annuity rates just continue to fall year on year. People in general (not just pilots) need to work longer to recover those losses instigated by the mismanagement and greed of some very large "respectable" financial institutions. I suspect the younger pilot generation will be even harder hit than my generation so many of you will need to work longer - even if you don't want to.

Fortunately, I still enjoy my job so that coupled with the fact I would prefer to recover a small portion of my pension losses means I shall keep on working just as long as my good health holds and management allow me to stay. If my EASA ATPL is truly valid for life then perhaps I may even be allowed to carry on till I'm 66 years young!?

[flyboyike]

I suspect the younger pilot generation will be even harder hit than my generation so many of you will need to work longer - even if you don't want to.


Well, at least some of us know better than to expect pensions and such, and, hopefully, are planning accordingly.

[sapco2]

That's good to hear flyboyike and all with the benefit of hindsight, those before you simply believed they were investing wisely in pension funds that have failed miserably!

[flyboyike]

It's not even hindsight, I'm such a natural pessimist that I expect absolutely nothing. That way even a little bit is a major pleasant surprise.

[ShyTorque]

No, naivete of youth is how people end up buying 5 BMWs the minute they upgrade. There is nothing cunning about living within one's means. I'll grant you it's not terribly fashionable anymore, but it's certainly not cunning.

If you refer to me personally, that's quite insulting as well as being totally incorrect. I come from a very modest background and have always known how to live within my means. I have no debts or loans. We live in a modest house and have always done most of the work on it myself to save money - I learned DIY out of necessity.

I have always put money aside for retirement and a bit more for a rainy day - when there's been some to spare, that is. There hasn't always been money to spare, certainly not in the days of 15% mortgage rates, which financially crippled many of my generation (watch out you youngsters with big mortgages if those days ever come back - the rate went from 6.5% to 15% almost overnight. Then we'll really find out who is living beyond their means)!

But I do need to keep working as long as I can, and I will, because pensions are worth far less now than those earned by previous generations. If working my backside off to keep my family is seen as at the "unfair expense" of someone who thinks he's more entitled to my salary than I am - well, that's life.

As for BMWs...I have owned three. Only one at a time, though. The first was chosen from a bunch of old bangers, I needed it to drive to work. It cost me £1200 and I ran it for three years and sold it for £800. When it needed maintenance, I did it myself. The other two were five or six years old when I bought them and bought for less than half of the new price. One served me for eight years, the other for seven years. The last time I took out a loan for a car was in 1979 and it was for about £600. I traded in my beloved sports car and bought a four door saloon not long after I got married.

What's more - we shop at Aldi, not Harrods! :rolleyes:

[sapco2]

ShyTorque's account will strike a chord with many of us here in the UK and all said without a single hint of bitterness - reality may be slightly different on the other side of the pond however!

Whining is a self destructive kind of emotion, far better to count one's blessings and continue working as long and as hard as you feel able.

[flyboyike]

If you refer to me personally, that's quite insulting as well as being totally incorrect.


Oh, I get it, it's perfectly OK to call me young and naive, but if I respond (and no, it had nothing to do with you personally, I don't care if you live, breathe or die), well now that's just insulting. Thin-skinned much?

[flyboyike]

Whining is a self destructive kind of emotion, far better to count one's blessings and continue working as long and as hard as you feel able.


S'pose so...just sad to see people end up in morgues trying to suck out that extra penny or two.

[ShyTorque]

Oh, I get it, it's perfectly OK to call me young and naive, but if I respond (and no, it had nothing to do with you personally, I don't care if you live, breathe or die), well now that's just insulting. Thin-skinned much?

You complain too much. Read that post again. I called myself naive.

[DozyWannabe]

You told me yourself that "I'd be a fool not to take the advice etc...of the elder sages...", so I'm taking it by the bucketful, the good and the bad, like the good little whippersnapper I am.

Not at all. I was saying that it's possible to learn lessons - both positive and negative - from colleagues regardless of age and/or experience. Treating each experience individually and trying to avoid generalisations is a wise approach.

[BBK]

flyboyike wrote:

S'pose so...just sad to see people end up in morgues trying to suck out that extra penny or two.

I don't think the statistics will bear that out. In the UK BALPA magazine 'The Log' there was an article, IIRC, that mentioned that airline pilots, on average, lived longer than the general population. I remember that on a thread recently about a pilot who died during a flight you made some highly obnoxious remarks to the effect that he should have already retired.

As pilots we operate under a well defined set of rules, EASA, FAA etc. If these regulations allow a pilot to work to a set age then he/she can work to that age subject to competency and medical checks. Your views do not, thank heavens, come into it.

Where there is a gap between the maximum age of employment and the state pension age then as pilots, who are used to planning ahead, we should make provision for those years without the state pension.

I will not pass judgement on anyone's desire to continue for as long as they can and I would ask they do not judge me. I'm not into big cars and don't have a big house but I did start a family on the late side so early retirement may simply be unaffordable. Other pilots may/will have other circumstances that preclude calling it a day early.

BGQ

You raised some interesting points. As you say it should be based on a scientific analysis of when a pilot's competence, or lack thereof, should decide the retirement age.

[flyboyike]

I remember that on a thread recently about a pilot who died during a flight you made some highly obnoxious remarks to the effect that he should have already retired.


I stand by those remarks, had he retired, he might have still been alive, which is usually considered a good thing. Sorry if I hurt Your Excellency's feelings.

[heavy.airbourne]

Are you implying that pilots stop dying as soon as they stop piloting? Then please explain, as it seems that your young superior intellect has an understanding we old farts don't seem to grasp! :E:p

[flyboyike]

Are you implying that pilots stop dying as soon as they stop piloting? Then please explain, as it seems that your young superior intellect has an understanding we old farts don't seem to grasp!


Well, in a way, yes, I am. My superior intellect understands that the life or an airline pilot is not real easy on the body, and it doesn't get much easier with age. I can tell you from my own experience that it's markedly harder on me now at 38 than it was when I started airline flying at 31. This job takes a toll on you, whether you admit it or not.

With regards to the particular gentleman that BBK brought up so elegantly, I submit that had he not been out there flying, he would have been far more likely to receive proper medical care that he obviously needed and, therefore, might not have ended up on a gurney in a morgue.

So, while I'm not suggesting retirement will render you immortal, I am saying that one might live a bit longer if he slows down a little, smells the roses and, if necessary, gets proper treatment, preferably close to home. As much as I love this job, it's not worth dying for or dying on.

[captplaystation]

Au contraire, a surprising percentage of pilots seem to shuffle off shortly AFTER retiring. One could argue that 66 is a dangerous age, but it seems to have been the same story when retiral was at 60.

Waking up at awful o'clock/spending the night in a metal tube/time zone changes/ atmospheric pressure changes/DVT/cosmic radiation /crew meals etc etc . . . all bad for us, but, there are other stresses associated with retirement, and we haven't been acclimatising to them for 40 odd year.

It seems in many cases our tired old bodies ( & minds) don't adapt too well to the "stresses" being turned off /or don't much appreciate adapting to new/ novel ones.

[iceman50]

flyBOYike
life or an airline pilot is not real easy on the body, and it doesn't get much easier with age. I can tell you from my own experience that it's markedly harder on me now at 38 than it was when I started airline flying at 31.

My word that is huge experience, I think you should have chosen another career with all your whining about how you should be in the left seat already. HTFU or go do something else.

[flyboyike]

Must be a sign of great experience when one is unable to argue the issues and instead chooses to sling personal insults. Guess that's what I have to look forward to.

[ABBOT]

Everyone is happily talking about working until the average age of natural death! Are we still going to be a functional contributor to the industry on the 'front line' as we age.

I started in aviation (glider) when I was fourteen, at fifty five I am finding I suffer fools less easily and get tired a lot earlier.

Time to contribute in some other way methinks, at the moment us 'ageing' pilots need to look more towards regulation, management, mediation and training lest the bean counters take down what's left of the industry.

[fokker1000]

This job has changed so much in the last 20 years. Anyone thinking about it for a career, please think of a different career. When you earn a decent salary, have weekends off and are not constantly knackered you can go hire a light aircraft and enjoy it when you want to!
Invest your £100K in a different line of work is my opinion….

[galaxy flyer]

Flyboyike,

Let's see, a whole seven years and you are noting the aging that airline flying is doing already? You won't make 50 or 60, if that's the trend. I've 17 years of full-time active duty, three wars; a total of 15 years of corporate and 5 airline and still hungry for more. No, don't need the money, either.

[flyboyike]

Galaxy Flyer, that's exactly what I said, I certainly won't make to 60, nor do I want to.

Thank you for your service.

[rogerg]

I certainly won't make to 60, nor do I want to.

Lets see what you say when your 59.

[hawker750]

Excuse me if this has been mentioned before but I do not want to trawl through all the posts.
I have a valid licence, just renewed my LPC/OPC etc etc. I have just turned 65 and I am not even allowed to be the third pilot to extend the FT on a long duty day. Now that IMHO is plain crazy. It is rules for the sake of rules. Where is the safety case for denying me a very cost effective way of helping the crewing situation in my company? It simply means the crews have to fill out more discretion reports.What is safer? 2 crews doing a 14 hour day or 2 pilots + an old fart like me getting in the way. I suppose the space cadets will say the former!

[flyboyike]

Hawker, play some golf, enjoy life a little, learn to let go.;)

[RAT 5]

Sail round the world; or as far as you can get. or Remember who the wife is before she wonders who you are and why you are still there after 5 days.

[Desert185]

Hawker, play some golf, enjoy life a little, learn to let go.

Since you have been giving advice and complaining about age vs the job, and given the above you apparently understand the concept of letting go, so perhaps you should take some of your own advice to heart. You'll last longer, and there are much larger aviation related fish to fry. :cool:

[ShyTorque]

at fifty five I am finding I suffer fools less easily and get tired a lot earlier.

These days I often don't suffer fools at all.

However, in contrast to yourself (and I'm older than you) I don't seem to get as tired as quickly as I used to. Certainly not as quickly as my co-pilot, who is some quarter century younger than me. Maybe I just learned how to pace myself.

[flyboyike]

Since you have been giving advice and complaining about age vs the job, and given the above you apparently understand the concept of letting go, so perhaps you should take some of your own advice to heart. You'll last longer, and there are much larger aviation related fish to fry.


Indeed, and that's exactly what I'm going to do soon enough. Most of y'all will probably still be hanging on, and that is well.

[ExSp33db1rd]

............Maybe I just learned how to pace myself............ A couple of beers at midday, followed by a few hours decent sleep as a result - instead of tossing and turning in a vain hope of getting some sleep, did wonders for the following night flight !

( but don't tell anyone)

...........and why you are still there after 5 days. When one of my colleagues was about to retire ( at 55 in those days ) his wife was panic stricken - " I married him for Better or Worse" she said "Not breakfast, lunch and bloody dinner "

[Not Nightowl]

Rumour is NZ's CAA and Australia's CASA will both adopt this new rule.

[BGQ]

Unlikely in NZ.... refer NZ's overriding Human Rights Act regarding discrimination.... don't know about Australia

[Not Nightowl]

If it does, pretty much mean mandatory retirement at the big aero club in NZ.