Who's (ultimately) responsible in a multi-crew environment?

[aguadalte]

EC REG 965/2012 states (my bold):

ORO.FC.A.201 In-flight relief of flight crew members
(a) The commander may delegate the conduct of the flight to:
(1) another qualified commander; or
(2) for operations only above flight level (FL) 200, a pilot who complies with the following minimum qualifications:
(i) ATPL;
(ii) conversion training and checking, including type rating training, in accordance with ORO.FC.220;
(iii) all recurrent training and checking in accordance with ORO.FC.230 and ORO.FC.240;
(iv) route/area and aerodrome competence in accordance with ORO.FC.105.

CAT.GEN.MPA.105 Responsibilities of the commander
(a) The commander, in addition to complying with CAT.GEN.MPA.100, shall:
(1) be responsible for the safety of all crew members, passengers and cargo on board, as soon as the commander arrives on board the aircraft, until the commander leaves the aircraft at the end of the flight;
(2) be responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft:
(i) for aeroplanes, from the moment the aeroplane is first ready to move for the purpose of taxiing prior to take-off, until the moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight and the engine(s) used as primary propulsion unit(s) is(are) shut down;
(ii) for helicopters, when the rotors are turning;
(3) have authority to give all commands and take any appropriate actions for the purpose of securing the safety of the aircraft and of persons and/or property carried therein in accordance with 7.c of Annex IV to Regulation (EC) No 216/2008;

As Captain Seamus J.P. Lyttle, (BSc, CEng, FCLIT, FRAeS) summarizes in a great book "So you want to be a Captain?:

1.2.7 Summary

Commander’s responsibility:
• The commander is charged with the safe conduct of his flight;
• It is the commander’s responsibility to make and take decisions – to command.

Responsibility:
• An onus or obligation to achieve a safe operation;
• Assigned by the operator;
• Charged by regulation;
• Discharged by proper execution of duties;
• Not re-assignable on to others;
• Cannot be rejected by the person to which assigned.

Overall responsibility includes:
Responsibility for the actions of subordinates – e.g. crew members;
Responsibility to assess the product or outcome of others’ activities, where these affect or impact on the basic responsibility assigned to the commander.

So my question is: Who's ultimately responsible, when another qualified commander (and I use the term commander on purpose) is at the controls?

I have my opinion, but would like to have yours'.

[fireflybob]

So my question is: Who's ultimately responsible, when another qualified commander (and I use the term commander on purpose) is at the controls?


The Commander.

[Captaintcas]

The Captain who is mentioned as PIC on the flightplan, and thus designated PIC by the Airline bears final responsibility for the safe o peation of the aircraft from the moment he enters untill he signs off to the engineers or doors sealed.

He/she can delegate the NAVIGATIONAL COMMAND to another Captain or First Officer at any time, keeping overall command.

[Intruder]

You can delegate authority, but not responsibility.

[Westnest]

Sky Marshal on board or not?

[flarepilot]

I know of two interesting inflight problems that were both blamed on the captain, yet he was not in the cockpit at the time.

1. part 135 operation in a MU2...135 mission finished safely and captain was too tired to continue...copilot said he would fly it PART 91 as a ferry flight and captain went to sleep in the back.

despite being listed as PIC, the copilot landed GEAR UP and the captain was blamed by the FAA and lost his lic for a year. That's right, the captain said he wasn't the PIC, the other guy was PIC and it was declared a PArt 91op prior to takeoff.

another guy in a 121 operation left the flight deck to use the bathroom...copilot flying, copilot allowed plane to stall. captain runs up and helps recover...captain blamed by the FAA.


WOW to both...
so if youare captain you are responsible, even if you are in the bathroom or asleep in back.

even if you are not the captain!

watch out!!!!

[Natstrackalpha]

another guy in a 121 operation left the flight deck to use the bathroom...copilot flying, copilot allowed plane to stall. captain runs up and helps recover...captain blamed by the FAA.



They should have blamed the airline too! Fancy letting a t*** in a COMMAND seat who cannot prevent or recover from an incipient never mind developed stall. Even if due to CAT opp direction w/v to the one that was - whatever - stalls - unstall it. Cant fly? Dont bother coming. Simples!
Responsibility for the actions of subordinates – e.g. crew members;
So what happened on the type rating course then, did they just drink :mad: coffee?
>
> Can`t fly? Don`t bother coming.

So is this it then . . . do they come to learn to fly . . . it cannot be!

The boss - the Captain is the Pilot in Command. His/Hers is the ultimate responsibilty. S/He gets first up on the munchies. In an unlikely non normal precautionary somewhere between EU and Merica - s/he gets to see everyone is super taken care of, first. Includes pax, crew, F/O, then him/herself - in that order. He is the CEO of that $100-$300 million dollar company, at that time that he is in the CEO`s seat - i.e., until he gets back to the hotel, provided s/he has left the aircraft safe and or handed it over to another CEO/Captain and crew. Should there be no ongoing crew and the aircraft is to be parked up for the night - s/he should ensure the safe securing of the aircraft - and not leave it to others in his/her absense to do so. (That way, you won`t come back to a burnt out APU in the morning)

S/He is the one who gets his/her ---s kicked if anyone does any kicking.
S/He is the one who is begged and prayed to be able to pull a white rabbit out of the hat when the time so demands - Hudson.
S/He is the one through deft skill, piloting and aircraft knowledge/delegation/team skills and the whole nine yards who is expected to turn a bad situation into a good one or better still prevent a bad one from happening in the first place. His/Her best resources are all around - the F/O, the other crew members, and first and foremost that little baby of an aeroplane, which will do what s/he will make it do.

So, aquadalte - what is your opinion then?

[Centaurus]

And yet despite all these points regarding responsibilities - and all these points mentioned here are true, we still have this faintly ridiculous Pilot in Command Under Supervision thingie which should mean nothing - yet it goes towards logging what is basically fake command hours in order to meet licencing minimums.

The books says any decision made by the pilot logging PICUS that is counter-manded by the real pilot in command, results in the whole sector being down graded to a mere co-pilot time. That's a real joke and my guess is that it rarely happens. PICUS is a great rort. All it means is the captain has given his co-pilot a sector. It seems logging co-pilot time is below the dignity of the co-pilot.

[Check Airman]

I've always thought the PICUS thing was a bit curious myself. You're either in charge, or you're not. The only time I can imagine that PICUS would be appropriate is during command training on the line.

I still log all my time as FO as SIC. Even though the FAA allows me to log my sectors as PIC, I think it looks a bit silly.

[Denti]

In EASA land there may be a difference between the commander and the PIC. For example in my company a trainer occupying the jump seat is the commander of the flight and has the ultimate responsibility, however the CPT on the left seat is still PIC. Except during line training of a new CPT of course, in that case it is "only" PICUS time. Unlike the UK most of the rest of Europe requires a special program approved by the authority to be able to get PICUS time which limit it to command training.

[Captaintcas]

Strange Denti, must be a German thing...
PIC is the one who is the highest authority onboard, and the representative of the company and State of Registration. That is ICAO and Common sense.

There can be more than one Captain onboard, but only 1 Commander PIC.

Actually very simple.

Linechecks are checks to see the proficiency of the crew, ultimate responsibility lies with that crew unless the checker officially takes command in case of an absolute :mad:

[BizJetJock]

Certainly in the military it is not unusual for the PiC not to be the Commander; similarly on ships the Captain is still the Captain when he is in his bunk, but he may not be the Commander if an Admiral (military) or owner (civil) is on board.
Basically, if you signed for it, it's your fault! :eek:

[aguadalte]

Natstrackalpha:
So, aquadalte - what is your opinion then?

I'm with you. The Commander is the ultimate responsible for the safe conduct of the flight, whether manipulating the controls, or not, as stated in ICAO Annex II and in EC REG 932/2012 (SERA - Standard European Regulations for Aviation) which is the European version of the latter.

SERA.2010 Responsibilities
(a) Responsibility of the pilot-in-command
The pilot-in-command of an aircraft shall, whether manipulating the controls or not, be responsible for the operation of the aircraft in accordance with this Regulation, except that the pilot-in-command may depart from these rules in circumstances that render such departure absolutely necessary in the interests of safety.

SERA.2015 Authority of pilot-in-command of an aircraft
The pilot-in-command of an aircraft shall have final authority as to the disposition of the aircraft while in command.

:ok:

[BARKINGMAD]

What a shame the CEO and his/her management minions are not included in the "contributory factors"?

After all it was their wonderful HR department who recruited the villainous pilots and their training/supervisory organisation which allowed them to remain in employment, long after their colleagues knew they were unsuited to the task...........?

[Exaviator]

In a multi-crew operation there is and only can be ONE pilot in-command.

When an additional captain is carried to meet inflight rest requirements his respocibility is strickly normal pilotage of the aircraft during the period that the PIC is on crew rest.

All other operational decisions remain the responcibility of the PIC.

End of story...

[kharmael]

The Captain.

/thread.

[aguadalte]

OK...

Now, imagine the additional captain is flying the thing and :mad:-up the landing...

Who's ultimately accountable for the resulting mess?:hmm:

[Exaviator]

Unlikely to happen aquadalte. When an extra captain is carried to meet in flight rest requirements his duties are normally confined to the cruise segment of the flight. The designated commander remains Pilot In Command regardless of who is actually flying the aircraft.

That is what being in command means... As the Americans say, "The buck stops here"