SQ pilots dig deep for colleagues on SQ006

[nice_beaver]

It seems all is not well on fantasy island. It would appear the costs of legal fees and representations of the crew of SQ 006 is being met by ALPAS ( SQ pilots association ) and in order to keep the cash flowing there is to be a vote at the next meeting on a proposal that all Capts pay S$1000 anf FOs S$500.
This would also include those ex-pats who are not eligable to vote, and who are not provided with legal assistance by the constitution of ALPAS!!

Umhh, nice to see the airline standing up for it's guys who are out on a limb?

[Airbubba]

Nice gesture, hope the ex-pats get similar treatment when they are on the ropes!

[Pontius Pilot]

Don't you mean,

"Nice gesture, hope the ex-pats get similar treatment if they commit criminal negligence!!!!!"

I would'nt put your money on it!

[In the slot]

Seems that the voting forms in TRULY UN-UNANIMOUS style have the name and union number of the voter on them! Does this mean that if you vote against the contribution then you will be known as a ****** by everyone else??!!
This is DISGUSTING, if any union men would like to comment, and will result in a "politically correct, fear of retribution" vote, rather than the genuine vote that would be preferable. I doubt that the result will be different, but this is not the correct way to conduct such votes.
My personal thoughts are with our unfortunate colleagues.

[thegypsy]

Pontius Pilot You are quite correct in what you say.

As a current SIA Captain I for one will not be dipping my hands in my pocket.
These are the very same people who voted to have a salary reduction of 7% and loss of service increment of 5% to help the CEO not lose face and show a loss for the year due to his ill advised investments in Air New Zealand and Ansett and Vigin Atlantic where he lost $2 Billion Dollars and even now have just pumped another £12.5 million into Virgin.
The disgraceful intervention of the PM into our vote on this with all the usual threats that SIA are so good at and the bullying tactics pursued by the ex DFO over the past 20 years which have been continued by the two ex armchair Generals now running SIA are a direct cause of the SQ6 accident in the first place.

Some time ago there was a survey which showed a total lack of confidence in the flight operations management of SIA.

Later on another more extensive survey was carried out by Hewitt Associates. We never heard another word about this!! No doubt they did not like what they heard so it was all swept under the carpet in usual SIA fashion.

Most of us were not surprised when SQ6 occurred as SIA was an accident waiting to happen and they had been lucky up until Silk Air B737 although there had been several quite serious incidents beforehand.

[Murrelet]

the gypsy:

Many times in pprune threads there are vague references to 'other incidents' in SIA past - but no-one gives any details. Care to elaborate?

[Anotherpost75]

I understand that SIA is providing lawyers for the SQ6 trio but that ALPAS also wants to field a separate legal team so as to be up and running in the event of future civil litigation directly against the pilots rather than against SIA.

However, ALPAS would intend keeping the cash if it were not needed (rather than returning it to the individual donors) and putting its future use to a vote at an appropriate time

[jstars2]

In the slot

Alpas is only following the local tradition. The "General Election" voting forms in Singapore have the individual's six figure postal code proudly emblazoned, presumably to identify ******'s who may not vote as required!?:rolleyes:

[Alpha Leader]

jstars2:

The postal code is included so that the PAP can - after the usual comfortable and predictable election triumph - identify those wards where there has been less-than-enthusiastic support. In consequence, the HDB estates in such deviant wards are not awarded funds for upgrading and the voters there are left with less valuable flats.

I believe that there have recently been a number of delegations from Singapore visiting Zimbabwe to get some more ideas on how to further motivate stray voters:D

[Gladiator]

Original post, July 2001

ALPA (US) and SQ006 Flight Crew Release

In October 2000, the Taiwanese government detained the flight crew of Singapore Airlines Flight SQ006 after being involved in a fatal accident at Taipei-Chang Kai Shek Airport.

IFALPA and its member unions called for the crew's release, which the Taiwanese government ignored. At the direction of ALPA's(US)president, Capt. Duane Woerth, Capt. Dennis Dolan (ALPA's IFALPA representative) and the government Affairs Department weighed in with members of the US Congress who were friendly to Taiwan as well as with the lobbying firms that represent Taiwan's interests in Washington, D.C.

ALPA and others explained the dangerous precedent set in not releasing the flight crew and the possible consequences. As a result, Taiwan relented and released the crew, who returned to Singapore.

Recently ALPA (US) wrote to the Ministers of Justice and Transportation urging them not to criminally prosecute the pilots, unless they find proof of gross negligence or wilful misconduct.
End.

The question is, would SQ006 crew still be under detention in Taiwan had it not been for the intervention of ALPA (US)?

Lee Kuan Yew at every chance sided(s) with China over the China/Taiwan issue. He never realized there may some day be a pay back time.

Of course the Indonesians where easier to coral during the SilkAir saga, the Taiwanese on the other hand are not so broke.

[4eyes]

Gladiator:
Lee Kuan Yew at every chance sided(s) with China over the China/Taiwan issue. He never realized there may some day be a pay back time.

Gladiator, I suggest you stick to flying and refrain from commenting on Asian matters, you will just show your ignorance (or bias?). People in the region knows the long-term close relationship between the two countries, esp in the military field.

Just shows, just because you think you are a great pilot doesn't necessarily make you an expert on anything else.;)

[Alpha Leader]

4eyes:

I'm not so sure whether it is you or the Gladiator who knows more about regional issues, or you would no doubt be aware that Singapore is currently negotiating the use of P.R. Chinese military bases for training purposes. It is axiomatic that this would mean the currently used Republic of China facilities will no longer be accessible to Singaporean forces for security reasons.

[Gladiator]

Lee Kuan Yew's own words during the escalation of tensions between China and Taiwan in mid 90's.

"As far as I am concerned, regarding Taiwan, there is only one China."

[Tosh26]

Gladiator

You posted on 15 May:

“The question is, would SQ006 crew still be under detention in Taiwan had it not been for the intervention of ALPA (US)?”

The implication being that because of LKY’s pro mainland China policy, release of the SQ006 Tech crew would not have happened without ALPA (US) intervention (which I agree is probably the case).

You then go on to say:

“Of course the Indonesians where (sic) easier to coral during the SilkAir saga, the Taiwanese on the other hand are not so broke.”

Maybe I’m a bit dense but the last one seems to me a little bit oblique. Would you care to spell out your meaning?

4eyes

Your post of 15 May includes:

“Gladiator, I suggest you stick to flying and refrain from commenting on Asian matters, you will just show your ignorance (or bias?).”

If I may say so, it seems to me that Gladiator, far from displaying ignorance (or bias?), on the contrary, displays a grasp of events which you are reluctant to credit him with.

May I further say that it would, in future, perhaps be more helpful if you would restrict your posts to providing similar erudite snippets, rather than seeking to stifle the freedom of expression that this forum is justly famous for.

Alpha Leader

And finally, your post of the same date:

“…….Singapore is currently negotiating the use of P.R. Chinese (Mainland) military bases for training purposes. It is axiomatic that this would mean the currently used Republic of China (Taiwanese) facilities will no longer be accessible to Singaporean forces for security reasons.” - My brackets

This is certainly significant and may be part of the background to what does seem to me to be a fairly scratchy relationship between Singapore and Taiwan, as revealed by reaction to ASC’s report on SQ006. Do you have a time frame on the above coming about?

[Alpha Leader]

Tosh26:

The first report on these negotiations appeared in the HK English-language press around mid-April. Given the sensitivity of the matter, the timing would be indicative that some sort of preliminary understanding between Singapore and PRC might have already been reached.

I do not have the article on file, but if memory serves me well commencement of Singaporean training exercices in PRC was to be from next year onward.

Clearly, as soon as any official announcement is made in this respect (and perhaps even sooner, depending on the quality/quantity of intelligence available to ROC), access to Taiwanese training facilities can be expected to be denied.

[4eyes]

tosh26:

Ahh, your post enlightened me, this IS the RUMOR network. I apologise for trying to restrict a good yarn.

Nonetheless, I seriously doubt Singapore will be wanting to severely damage its relationship with Taiwan just to kowtow to China. Don't forget that the Singapore military is almost completely US equiped. I doubt the US will take it lightly if Singapore were to go into serious military collaboration with China.

As for the comment from Lee Kuan Yew about one China, it was the view of the US and Taiwan government at one time. And probably still is for the US government, officially at least.

All that is happening between Singapore and Taiwan re: SQ006 is just both parties trying to spin-doctor their way out of any liability or at least reduce their liability. Good old American capitalist practice.

Have a good day gentlemen.:)

[Tosh26]

4eyes

Yep, that's pretty erudite. I'm impressed.:)

Regards, Tosh

[Gladiator]

Tosh26,

The SilKAir Saga

A Singaporean plane crashed in Indonesia, a country that claimed could not afford a proper investigation. Singapore chips in, investigation led by one person. A one man show that has not and will not release what should be public information, the contents of the CVR.

Do I suspect a payoff/ corruption, you better bet your whole bottle of chili.

[Tosh26]

Gladiator

So the implication is that material evidence was withheld, for whatever reason, during the MI185 investigation/inquiry and during the litigation and appeal brought by victims’ families?

Surely though, all evidence that was available to the court, was allowed into the proceedings and therefore a fair outcome has recently been achieved in the last few days? What could be gained by a cover-up?

Regards

[Gladiator]

The system in Singapore does not work that way, evidence, etc. You are talking about a country were human and civil rights are not recognized by the government, free speach will lead you to jail.

You can be arrested and not even be allowed a phone call, your family may not even be informed. In Singapore the government controls the color of your underwear.

SilkAir is owned by the government, they very much control the outcome of any legal case. Hence, the government even stays in power by using the courts to bankrupt any political opponents. A certain law can change to the government's favor over night, this has been going on for years.

The country gives the impression of a democracy, cloaks itself as a first world country, boasts of Swiss standard of life, but deep down inside it is a communist regime with only a few elite mostly based on race.

In fact a few years ago the government tried to again by using it's justice system to destroy a very viable political opponent. This opponent made enough noise Internationaly to bring reputable observers to observe his trial by the Singapore justice system.

It was not long before the observers determined that the justice sytem in Singapore is rigged. The observers were asked to leave.

Oh I have a better one for you, a few years before that, an international event were to take place in Singapore (or something similar). The event was high school or college kids in a debate competition. After all the teams arrived from around the world, none were allowed to speak. No permit to speak in public, and no permits issued, therefore they all watched a few Singaporeans debate each other.

Trust me, the sytem is half KGB, half Geshtapo.

[Alpha Leader]

I second the Gladiator on the general direction of his posting above.

Having lived in many countries in Europe and Asia, it was a "first" for us to receive a circular letter from the principal of our boys' international school in Singapore one day, reminding parents to either refrain from discussing Singapore's internal politics in front of our children and/or to urge our kids not to make any comments on Singapore's politicians outside of the house.

And we'd arrived thinking that Singapore had the best politicians money could buy......:D

[4eyes]

Alpha Leader:
Perhaps I can offer an alternative view to your experience. There are many people in Singapore who still remember life under the British colonial masters. And like most former subject people, they are very sensitive when outsiders especially westerners are perceived to be interfering with their domestic politics.

If you are an American, it would be like a British lord talking down to you about American lack of manners and culture, just after the American Revolution. I would think most Americans would be more than defensive in such a situation. So why not Singaporeans?

Think about it.

[Alpha Leader]

4eyes:

This has nothing to do with colonialism - in fact, Harry Lee and his Pakistani-Malaysian friend Mahatir are quite happy to keep certain laws in place that they inherited from the Brits (I am neither British nor American).

So Harry and Mahatir quite happily fall back on the internal security act the Brits used in their respective countries to silence any criticism. You call this progress after colonialism?

However, my dear friend, regardless of your nationality, you can stand up in Hyde Park and tell anyone who cares to listen to you that Tony Blair is an idiot, that British politics are rotten to the core, etc. And the same holds true in the US. The point being, that in the UK and the US, the governments generally believe that their citizens are sufficiently mature to gauge whether any criticism - no matter how extreme - is justified or not.

In Singapore not even a Singaporean may utter disbelief at the wonderous good fortune that has befallen this city in the form of the Lee family, who seems to be the only one who can produce capable leaders. Marry a Lee (like Ho Ching did), and presto - you go right to the top of Singapore Inc.

It's called universal freedom of speech, and it is not conferred selectively upon citizens and non-citizens. At the very least, if you pay tax in a place, you are equally entitled to speak your mind about the leaders who live off it.

Of course, if we all think back to what it was like 50 years ago, then the present is much better in most countries. The point is that Singapore (and let's keep the debate focused on this place) asks its people to measure progress in purely economic terms and not in respect of cultural and political maturity.

[Tosh26]

Gladiator

Yes the name of the best game in town does appear to be control, whether it’s of content of tame mouthpiece, The Straits Times, to prep the population for upcoming policy changes, or the courts, to give “correct” judgments, as in the latest furore over erstwhile opposition politician Dr Chee’s plea to the court to sanction representation by a foreign QC (denied as a foreign barrister would not show sufficient “respect” to a Singapore court whilst defending Chee), in his upcoming defamation action brought jointly, post the last General Election, by those grievously maligned and sensitive souls, the PM and SM.

4eyes

Well….. up to a point Lord Copper. It would seem that the only people who are really “very sensitive when outsiders especially westerners are perceived to be interfering with their domestic politics” are the political elite. Every Singaporean I ever talk to (very much non-elite) seems to have no reservation in endorsing even the mildest observation of politics, Singapore style, and further bemoan the constraints placed on their freedom to express, publicly, similar or more direct observations (please do not offer Singapore’s own “Speakers’ Corner” as evidence of such freedom), or to ask, Chee style, focused questions as to where exactly their tax dollars go to.

Alpha Leader

Absolutely spot on. Well done.

[jstars2]

SIA has just gone on record as standing by the pilots of SQ006 and has confirmed that it has retained a leading Taiwanese legal firm to represent the pilots (not SIA) in any potential prosecution there.

It has also committed to cover legal expenses and award of damages for other potential claims arising from the SQ0006 accident.

As this seems to indicate that SIA remains four square behind its pilots, exactly why does ALPAS need S$1000 and S$500 from Captains and First Officers respectively, for the same legal defence? And has the membership voted yet in favour of this scheme?

[Singapore Girl]

jstars2:

Committing to covering the legal costs in one thing - funding is another thing :o

[Casper]

Tosh & Gladiator,

By not releasing the CVR transcripts, the good professor can avoid disclosing who did NOT pull the CVR circuit breaker. By deduction, therefore, that information could be used to indicate just who DID pull it! Singapore Inc does not wish to be compelled to acknowledge that fact.

[0.88M]

a reply to jstars2

Only reason why the heartless management decided to
state in ink the support the SQ 6 guys

Is because the ALPA_S is better at taking care of the guys
then the paymaster. Shame shame

To think that nothing was mentioned for the past 1 year +
just affirms the opinion that the paymasters have no
intention of protecting the same guys who help earn the
1 billion dollars.. shame on them

That is the reason why the association is collecting a fund to
help the guys.

Why SQ has such bad / irresponsible paymasters ? one can
only guess.

[jstars2]

0.88M

Are you suggesting that Singapore Airlines management don't give a toss about the SQ006 trio and will be quite happy to "throw them to the wolves" when the opportunity arises?

If this is what you mean, can you be a little clearer in your explanation as to why this is the case? I found your previous post a little disjointed.

Thanks.

[Tosh26]

Does anyone know how the vote went recently at the ALPA-S AGM, when the motion proposing legal support for the SQ6 pilots came up?

[Anotherpost75]

Maybe in light of CI611 and future fingers that may be pointed, the Taiwanese Government will back off the idea of prosecuting the SQ6 pilots. The alternative, of course, could be that a lot of CI personnel also end up in jail, if screw-ups within CI are proved and blame can be pinned.

Fingers crossed lads.:)