Building my first aircraft. [Archive]

GBOZR

21st Oct 2013, 21:47

Hello all,

I have been looking at the possibilities of building a kit aircraft. I've been looking around at the various makes and models and have decided I'd prefer a tricycle gear config, with minimum two seats.

I also know that it is a long task, but seems to be very rewarding. Also this brings me onto 'fast build' kits, are these worth it?

I don't have the biggest budget in the world so could someone point me in the direction of a cheaper kit aircraft?

I'm based in the UK.

Cheers,

GBOZR

BackPacker

21st Oct 2013, 21:57

Genghis the Engineer

21st Oct 2013, 22:01

What's your budget?

What types have you flown and enjoyed before?

Have you any engineering skills?

What licence(s) do you have?

What sort of space do you have to build in?

How many hours per year, and years, do you think you can give it?

Do you have a home airfield? What's the runway length? Is there hangarage?

G

Genghis the Engineer

21st Oct 2013, 22:06

If you build any sort of aircraft yourself in the UK, you're going to have to do so under the guidance of an LAA mentor/coach. Otherwise it'll be very, very hard to eventually get a Permit to Fly. These mentors, and the LAA in general, can also help you choose the right kit for you, based on budget, time available, skills you may or may not have (metal, wood, composite?) and so forth.

The LAA also runs a website which hosts a number of forums. As much as I like PPRuNe, for serious questions about kitbuilding I'd go there.

Welcome to the Light Aircraft Association (http://www.lightaircraftassociation.co.uk/)

I can also recommend the following two books:
- Kitplane Construction (Wanttaja)
- Choosing your homebuilt (Armstrong)

LAA coaches are flying instructors, and there are two homebuilding organisations in the UK - LAA and BMAA.

Our chap will need to be a full member of BMAA or LAA, depending upon aircraft type - and will need a good inspector from the appropriate organisation. Quite a few, if not all, of the best inspectors are qualified with both however.

Quick build kits are just a money and time decision. Basically more bits come pre-assembled, but you pay for that. Whether that makes sense (assuming such a kit is available for the type) is ultimately a personal decision. There are also often part built kits available from people who got part wsy through the task and gave up. There are some bargains to be had there sometimes.

G

m.Berger

22nd Oct 2013, 12:04

Are you a builder or a flyer?
If the latter, don't build.
The cheapest kit is one that has already been built.
If that don't suit ya,find a project, take your LAA man with you and listen to what he says.

GBOZR

22nd Oct 2013, 14:26

What's your budget?
A: 10-20k

What types have you flown and enjoyed before?
A- I've flown in a eurostar and enjoyed!

Have you any engineering skills?
A- I done a apprenticeship with Thomson/Britannia a long time a go

What licence(s) do you have?
A- EASA PPL adding a night rating + Imc as we speak

What sort of space do you have to build in?
A- Two car garage

How many hours per year, and years, do you think you can give it?
A- No time limit, just looking at the possibilities at the moment

Do you have a home airfield? What's the runway length? Is there hangarage?
A- No home airfield

Genghis the Engineer

22nd Oct 2013, 15:32

That's enough to be going on with.

So your flying experience is (from this and your profile) EV97, AA5, C152. £10-£20k to play with, not decided on your new spiritual home, needs to be de-riggable, reasonable engineering skills. Not a taildragger pilot.

My thoughts:-

- Consider microlights as well as "group A", you're likely to get more bang for your buck with the former.

- Consider whether you can hangar your new pride and joy

- It wants to be reasonably easy to transport intact from home to airfield in the first instance.

- £20k isn't a huge amount of money these days.

In the microlight world, have a look at the Eurostar, Sky Ranger, MXP740 Savannah, Escapade (available nosewheel or tailwheel, but worth getting the conversion to have a tailwheel version which is much nicer handling), Zenair CH601. All of those should tick all of your boxes so-far, and all storable outdoors with covers if you need to (although I'd really not recommend it with the Escapade, whose life will be shortened by that). I've flown all of them, test flown all of them, and would be happy to own any of them.

In the group A world, have a look at the Group A versions of the EV97, Escapade and CH601 - same applies as the microlight versions, just a bit more payload. Also the Thorpe T211 - I think kits might be still available somewhere; not flown it myself but has a reputation as a straighforward and honest little light aeroplane.

Maybe the Rans S6 or Kitfox, but for my money both are much less refined than the newer Skyranger and Escapade respectively.

Rather cheaper, ugly, and very basic but other than that a super aeroplane, also look at the Raj Hamsa X'Air microlight. However, don't bother with the flapped Mk.2 / Falcon version - the flapless Mk.1 is nicer to fly, and cheaper.

G

Shoestring Flyer

22nd Oct 2013, 15:57

With only 20k to play with you are not going to build anything I don't think. You will need circa £40k to build even the humblest of machines by the time you have included the dreaded Vat and fitted basic instruments and got it permitted etc.
So I would seriously consider some of the excellent used suggestions Genghis has made.
There are obviously cheaper aircraft out there to be had but my advice would be stick to LAA machines they will be so much lighter on your pocket for maintenance than certified aircraft.
Also look and consider a Jodel, Condor or Emeraude, quite old machines now but dependant on your level of maintenance expertise they would be excellent choices.

magpienja

22nd Oct 2013, 16:38

Surly the must be some microlight kits with a 2 stroke for under 20k...even group A,

Granted anything with a 4 stroke is going to be pricey.

Genghis the Engineer

22nd Oct 2013, 16:47

Surly the must be some microlight kits with a 2 stroke for under 20k...even group A,

Granted anything with a 4 stroke is going to be pricey.

Yes, the ones I mentioned - the OP wasn't asking about second hand aeroplanes. I was answering the exam question :8

G

Shoestring Flyer

22nd Oct 2013, 17:47

Ok I admit I hadn't considered two stroke machines!( why would anyone)...but even then I think you will be very pushed to do it on 20K.
You certainly can't get a 'new' Eurostar, Savannah or Escapade or 601 kit complete with any sort of engine for 20k!

Genghis the Engineer

22nd Oct 2013, 17:54

With time, second hand instruments, good second hand engine - you can. I've come across people who have achieved their own aeroplane under £10k with something like an X'Air or some of the LAA single seaters. Buying a part built kit from somebody who gave up can help.

I have around 500hrs behind or in front of 2-stroke engines: so far they've given me one engine problem bad enough to land me in a field. Another 800ish hours in 4-stroke engined aeroplanes has furnished me with several more such bits of entertainment.

2 strokes are cheap, light, a bit noisy, a bit thirsty. For low utilisation homebuilts and microlights, they make a lot of sense. They aren't particularly problematic compared to the 4-stroke variety as fitted in microlights and homebuilts.

G

magpienja

22nd Oct 2013, 18:09

kitfox airplane maiden flight after installing new 582 engine.avi - YouTube

That cute little Kitfox seems to go well and sounds nice with its 65hp Rotax 582 2 stroke...brand new engine should be well under 5k,

Yes it will burn around 18 LPH but how much fuel can you buy with the 11K plus saving over a 4 stroke Rotax,

Bet you can buy many s/h ready made a/c though for less than the kit price,

Are you sure you want to build it yourself....I think the Skyranger range are quite competitive kits see Flylight Northampton...cheaper with the 4 stroke Jab engine,

http://www.flylight.co.uk/tuition/home.htm

Genghis the Engineer

22nd Oct 2013, 18:17

Aeroplane seems fine, but pilot's take-off, and cameraman's breathing techniques could do with a little refinement.

G

ChampChump

22nd Oct 2013, 18:33

Genghis the Engineer

22nd Oct 2013, 18:43

The Groppo Trail is one of the cheapest options, but not tricycle gear. Might be worth a look.

Trail (http://www.spriteaviation.co.uk/Sprite_Aviation/Trail.html)

The latest offering from the same stable is even cheaper, but not close to your requirements!

But do make sure that any kit you buy is approved by the LAA or BMAA, and you have an inspector happy to work with you and appropriately qualified, before you part with a penny.

G

Shoestring Flyer

22nd Oct 2013, 19:18

Having costed the Groppo Trail out myself a couple of times, even if you build it with a Sauer engine it will still cost you close to £40k by the time it is finished..

J.A.F.O.

22nd Oct 2013, 19:27

You could probably do the Trail for 30 but not 20.

Are you building because you want an aeroplane or building because you want to build?

piperboy84

22nd Oct 2013, 23:36

IFMU

23rd Oct 2013, 03:08

It seems that in your price range you could build a Sonex. Somewhat less for a basic kit, and close to the top of your range if you got the machined angle kit and the prebuilt spars.
Sonex -- The Sport Aircraft Reality Check! (http://sonexaircraft.com/)
Bryan

Shoestring Flyer

23rd Oct 2013, 08:10

Unfortunately the Sonex in the UK is not as cheap to build as in the US. To comply with LAA approval it needed quite a bit of work.
Silverfern microlights are the UK agent, but once again I think you will have to work hard to get a finished aircraft for less than £40k.
Sonex Aircraft Information (http://www.sfmicrolights.com/sonex2.html)

Genghis the Engineer

23rd Oct 2013, 09:47

Why not buy yerself a half knackered piper warrior or similar and spend the time you planned building from scratch fixing something that's already built, then you've got a

40 year old expensive to run and very dull aeroplane
that you can keep your IMC current with.

Just fixing that for you.

G

gasax

23rd Oct 2013, 10:03

To build an aircraft for that sort of money and have 2 seats and reasonable performance an advanced kit is simply not possible.

You hav3e already had suggstions in terms of the Zenair range. Plans are available and I know two guys who have built from plans. It is eminently 'doable' and the resulting aircraft is actually worth more than you put into it - which is often not the case for many of the 'advanced' kits.

Pick up a copy of the current LAA mag - there is an article there on a prize winning 601 built from plans.

Shoestring Flyer

23rd Oct 2013, 10:06

I still think the best option would be to forget building 'new' because I don't think it can be done with the OP's available budget and without compromising on some of large parts being used, i.e Engine, instruments, Radio, Transponder etc.
I would put the £20k into something secondhand (previously owned if you prefer that expression). A Skyranger or an Escapade with a Rotax 912, proper little go anywhere machines, nice and economical and reliable. You should get a nice one with lowish hours for £20k.

AberdeenAngus

23rd Oct 2013, 10:42

Are you absolutely set on 2 seats?
There are a world of possibilities if only 1 seat.

For the odd time you want to take the missus along, rent something nice for the day..... !

Genghis the Engineer

23rd Oct 2013, 13:42

Are you absolutely set on 2 seats?
There are a world of possibilities if only 1 seat.

For the odd time you want to take the missus along, rent something nice for the day..... !

A very valid viewpoint.

I'm just adjusting my personal fleet away from the big 4-seat gas-guzzler to half a small single seater and a 20th share in a good tourer based in a flying school.

A number of people have commented that you're either a builder or a flyer - I think that's a bit unfair as I've known a few people who were pretty good and active at both. However, you must really want to be part of the building process to pursue that, and it really isn't a way to get the right, or a cheap, aeroplane.

We're blessed in the UK with two excellent sport flying & homebuilding associations, and a very strong second hand market - across the board quite a number of types. All those options are there - but make sure whatever option you pursue, that it's the right one FOR YOU, and you're following it for appropriate reasons.

G

patowalker

23rd Oct 2013, 17:17

Pick up a copy of the current LAA mag - there is an article there on a prize winning 601 built from plans.

Don't be put off by the time it took to build it. :)

Maoraigh1

23rd Oct 2013, 18:43

Why not buy yerself a half knackered piper warrior or similar and spend the time you planned building from scratch fixing something that's already built, then you've got a real plane that you can keep your IMC current with.
You'll not be able to do that cheaply on an EASA aircraft.
If you can be sure of hangarage, there are a few Jodel 2 seaters on AFORS. If you're good at woodworking, damaged ones come up - about £3000 recently for O-200 engine, instruments, complete fuselage, u/c, empenage all undamaged, but with one wing end broken off, leading to a wing rebuild.
I don't know if contacting insurers is acceptable - to let you know of wrecks the owners don't want to buy back.

AtomKraft

23rd Oct 2013, 18:58

If it ws me, I'd go to the US and buy an old tail dragger like an Aeronca or a Taylorcraft or maybe a J-3 Cub.

When one was hours building in Illinois, the things were everywhere- and cheap!

Rod1

24th Oct 2013, 16:57

It is possible to build an aircraft for under £20k but you will have to build a basic kit or a plan built aircraft and consider a VW based engine or similar. Might be better to buy a project – say a jodel or similar and fix it / sort it. You can get an airframe for around £3k, a second hand engine for around £3k and that leaves you plenty of cash to fix things and get it flying. You would have to find a hanger to keep the aircraft in and do some of the work on the wing.

Light Aircraft, Jodel D18 Project, For Sale, advert ID=27548 (http://www.afors.com/index.php?page=adview&adid=27548&imid=0)

Might be for interest!

Rod1

Mechta

26th Oct 2013, 22:16

GBOZR, If you are in Luton, why not take a drive up to Sywell this coming Wednesday and have a chat to the kindred spirits in the LAA 'Strut' who meet in the bar at the Aviator hotel there? Several of the regulars have built their own aircraft, and the others fly a range of Jodels, Taylorcrafts and the like. All are very friendly and approachable.

Some meetings have a guest speaker too. Most people arrive around 7.30pm with the speaker if there is one starting at 8pm.

I work up that way in the week and have been along to most of their meetings.

GBOZR

27th Oct 2013, 01:39

AtomKraft,

That isn't out of the question! Only problems would be shipping it over, getting it put on a G reg and wether it'd be on a permit or not, any ideas?

Thanks for all the replies chaps, I still am exploring the possibilities looking especially at projects and the kitfox's!

I'll keep you all posted!

Genghis the Engineer

27th Oct 2013, 08:27

Only problems would be shipping it over, getting it put on a G reg and wether it'd be on a permit or not, any ideas?

Seriously - don't! The cost and aggro will be silly - and given the huge second hand market in the UK, pointless.

Buy an aeroplane like that to fly in the USA, but don't try and put it on the G-reg.

G

magpienja

27th Oct 2013, 09:21

What a shame that the LAA don't allow non member to post on there forum....ideal for these kind of topics.

I wonder what they are afraid of.

mikehallam

27th Oct 2013, 10:22

--
Perhaps those jolly rotters who can't spell !

mike hallam.

cockney steve

27th Oct 2013, 11:26

^^^^ Could it, just possibly, be something to do with it being a MEMBER'S FORUM ? :p

Hotelpresident

27th Oct 2013, 11:35

You are my hero, building an airplane is a huge job.

I was thinking to do it but they I gave up due to my lack of engineering knowledge.

Tricycle and two seats is probably tehe best option.

Don't forget to upload some pictures about your job.

Genghis the Engineer

27th Oct 2013, 12:24

What a shame that the LAA don't allow non member to post on there forum....ideal for these kind of topics.

I wonder what they are afraid of.

People with insufficient engagement to join their representative organisation?

G

LAA, RAeS and BMAA member and proud to engage with all three.

magpienja

27th Oct 2013, 19:44

"^^^^ Could it, just possibly, be something to do with it being a MEMBER'S FORUM ? "

Now why didn't I think of that...so bleedin obvious,

But why what are they afraid of...the likes of the BMAA forum is mostly an open door to anybody wanting to know more or get into it.

Big Pistons Forever

27th Oct 2013, 21:51

Over the years I have had 5 of my PPL students get into 2 Stroke microlight flying. Every single ONE has commented that they sure were glad that I had done a good job of teaching them what to do when the engine fails as they all had engine failures :hmm:

IMO 90% of recreational flyers won't use their airplane enough to justify the expense of full ownership.

Personally I think the best deal in aviation is a partnership in a permit airplane. I was in a 4 person partnership on 2 different airplanes for 5 years and I honestly can not think of one time where I had made plans and the aircraft was not available and only a handful of times where I made a spur of the moment decision to go flying and the aircraft was already flying.

So I basically had my own aircraft for 1/4 the costs of sole ownership.

GBOZR

27th Oct 2013, 22:49

Seriously - don't! The cost and aggro will be silly - and given the huge second hand market in the UK, pointless.

I have to say after looking further into this it just looks like a big pain in the wallet and backside!

A and C

28th Oct 2013, 08:02

Lots of under maintained and tatty rubbish avalable at low prices but the good stuff never gets into the classified adds unless the owner has gone bust.

Genghis the Engineer

28th Oct 2013, 08:03

Over the years I have had 5 of my PPL students get into 2 Stroke microlight flying. Every single ONE has commented that they sure were glad that I had done a good job of teaching them what to do when the engine fails as they all had engine failures :hmm:

I think I've had 2 engine failures (one total, one partial) in microlights with 2-stroke engines - both were fuel supply problems. I've had one partial in certified GA which caused me to fly a turnback, and three in 4-stroke engined homebuilts: one in a spin, one during stall testing, one on final to land - all three re-started easily, although the last after I'd landed as there seemed little point in faffing about at 200ft with a runway in front of me.

The message I get from this, is competence and currency in engine failures should be an absolute in anything single engined, regardless of what engine / aeroplane combination.

IMO 90% of recreational flyers won't use their airplane enough to justify the expense of full ownership.

I agree totally, and that's why I gave up sole-ownership several years ago. But, there are some advantages to sole ownership - basically total control. But that is an expensive luxury - particularly expensive in time.

Personally I think the best deal in aviation is a partnership in a permit airplane. I was in a 4 person partnership on 2 different airplanes for 5 years and I honestly can not think of one time where I had made plans and the aircraft was not available and only a handful of times where I made a spur of the moment decision to go flying and the aircraft was already flying.

So I basically had my own aircraft for 1/4 the costs of sole ownership.

What do you call the equivalent of Permit aeroplanes in Canada?

I agree with you, but it's worth emphasising that at least as much of the expense is time. Owning an aeroplane outright means a lot of man-hours tied up in various tasks - cleaning, managing maintenance, checking the hangarage, looking after the insurance. Joint ownership means sharing all that as well.

G