First Solo Sign Offs

[S-Works]

Excuse the ignorance, but its been awhile since I dealt with PPL training. For a restricted FI(A) to become unrestricted they need 25 solo sign offs. Is this 25 individual students for a first solo or is this anytime a student is sent off on a solo exercise?

I have an Instructor who has just sent me the solo sign off sheet to approve and it seems to have the same student several times.

[aztec25]

No problem being the same student just needs to be 25 flights but not first solo or first cross country. QXC counts as one sign off not three

See ref below which refers to instructing under supervision. Hope this helps.


"While conducting training under supervision, in accordance with (a) the FI shall not have the privilege to authorise student pilots to conduct first solo flights and first solo cross-country flights."

[Level Attitude]

What do you mean by "approve the solo sign off sheet"?

Apart from casting an experienced eye over it to advise on whether you
think it has been correctly, and fully, filled out there is nothing for you
(or anyone else) to do.

[mad_jock]

Its individual flights and can be multiple students or the same one. Last one I signed off I made have 5 different students on but he didn't need to. I thought he needed a bit more than 2 students.

The QXC can only be logged as once though after a bun fight on here caused someone to alter policy. Even though in my day we claimed for 3.

Check though they have done both XC and circuits solo briefs and find out if they have actually taught the whole course. There is no requirement to do this however. Personally I wouldn't sign off someone who has claimed all xc or all circuits.

And there is LA if you don't like the look of it all you can refuse to sign.

[S-Works]

Apart from casting an experienced eye over it to advise on whether you
think it has been correctly, and fully, filled out there is nothing for you
(or anyone else) to do.

As Head of Training I think you will find I can.....

[Cobalt]

QXC counts as one sign off not three

This used to be the case for some time, now it is back to being three sign-offs. That particular bit was in LASORS, but did not make it into CAP804.

Here is an extract of my e-mail exchange with the CAA at the time:


LASORS contained the statement that supervising the qualifying cross country flight counts as one flight for the purpose ofremoving the supervisory restriction. There is no equivalent statement in CAP804, nor is there any guidance or AMC in the original EU legislation. Does this mean that under EASA, all three legs count?



...., yes under EASA all three legs count.


Getting the answer took longer than having four more supervised solos, so I did not rely on this in the end - the answer arrived weeks after the restriction was removed.

The CFI/HOT does not need to sign or even see the application to remove the restriction, the only way to prevent an instructor who wants to get their restriction removed after 200 trial lessons and "supervising" 8 QXCs "borrowed" would be not allowing the instructor to supervise these solos or not signing them off afterwards.

All of this is increasingly moot. In the EASA world, all training that requires solo flying by the student, and indeed all training that requires an FI instead of a CFI, has to be performed at an ATO, and the head of training / CFI / whatever of the ATO can make sure that any instructor is appropriately supervised, regardless of whether the instructor is formally restricted or not.

[aztec25]

I stand corrected and updated!
God bless EASA!

[S-Works]

the only way to prevent an instructor who wants to get their restriction removed after 200 trial lessons and "supervising" 8 QXCs "borrowed" would be not allowing the instructor to supervise these solos or not signing them off afterwards.

Exactly.

All of this is increasingly moot. In the EASA world, all training that requires solo flying by the student, and indeed all training that requires an FI instead of a CFI, has to be performed at an ATO, and the head of training / CFI / whatever of the ATO can make sure that any instructor is appropriately supervised, regardless of whether the instructor is formally restricted or not.

Exactly.

As Head of Training, I have that responsibility. However the PPL side is not something I have had much involvement in previously. Now the RTF has been incorporated into our ATO its fallen into my lap to deal with. I am just seeking advice from those more used to dealing with Instructors at this level as its new to me. All my guys in the ATO have historically been senior instructors as needed for CPL/IR and Type Rating Training.

So am I right in understanding that three solos can be taken per student?

[Cobalt]

Any solo flight the restricted FI formally supervises counts, except they cannot formally supervise the 1st solo circuit, nor the first solo cross country flight.

In practice, at my FTO the CFI does a pre-solo check flight for any first solo circuit of a restricted FI; but only discusses the student notes and sits in for the briefing for the first cross country - in both cases, the CFI is formally supervising the solo.

Other than that, any solo circuit session (1 per session) or any cross country flight (1 per leg) counts. Realistically, 25 solo sign offs is equivalent to around three students.

[Level Attitude]

As Head of Training I think you will find I can.....
Can what exactly?

[S-Works]

Can influence the removal of the restriction. I have a duty to ensure correct supervision and unless the supervising FIS sign off the solos then they are not going to happen. The supervising FIS do not sign off without my approval.

So you see I do have direct control over the removal of the restriction.

It is in my interest to ensure the restriction is removed as quickly as possible but it does have to be in accordance with our QM system.

[Whopity]

...., yes under EASA all three legs count.Shows how little the CAA know! When you brief your student, they depart on one flight, it just happens to land and two airfields in the process of that flight. You only give one briefing and in FCL 210 it states:(2) 10 hours of supervised solo flight time, including at least 5 hours of solo cross-country flight time with at least 1 cross-country flight of at least 270 km (150 NM), during which full stop landings at 2 aerodromes different from the aerodrome of departure shall be made.ONE CROSS COUNTRY FLIGHT! I would have though that clear enough.

[mad_jock]

Was it you whopity that got the policy changed last time?

it definitely stirred up alot of feelings when it happened due to thread on here.

I think after a week on here a training com came out banning it.

To be honest the derestriction and supervision is a joke anyway so I really can't get wound up about it.

[Whopity]

I've always though the whole thing a load of nonsense; at the end of the day, experience is gained flying with and observing students, not wondering what they are doing when out of sight. The helicopter guys have split it into exercises rather than flights. I just thought the CAA's reply further illustrates their lack of understanding of what its all about. I once heard of a school who counted every circuit as a separate flight giving 6 sign offs in a 1 hour solo circuit detail!

[mad_jock]

There are loads of "methods" out there that go against the spirit of what they are trying to achieve. Which is of course ensure you have some experience in these matters and actually know what your doing.

These days I don't think they know what they are trying to achieve which is the crux of the problem. They never really realised what was happening with the JAR rules apart from bun fights on here.

The level of supervision is so variable. You have some that put some effort in and sit in on briefings and de briefings. And others who are only there to keep things legal (that's if they are there at all)

Personally I was restricted for a whole 5 weeks during summer wx. Level of supervision was nil apart from 2 solo 's sent to the FI unrestricted.

Its perfectly possible for the FI to get unrestricted with never having taught someone from zero to first solo.

[Another_CFI]

As a CFI I had an instructor who met the minimum experience requirements for removal of the restriction on his/her Fi rating but whom I believed showed lack of judgement.

I therefore set further requirements which he/she had to meet before I would sign off their request for removal of the restriction.

[Level Attitude]

before I would sign off their request for removal of the restriction.
Under EASA there is nothing for you to sign.

A CFI/HoT can, obviously, influence how and when a restricted FI gains
the experience required to remove their restriction.

Once an FI(R) has the required experience they apply directly to the CAA
to remove the restriction - no involvement from ATO, HoT or CFI required
for this Licensing action.

Just because an FI is no longer restricted it does not mean that the HoT
of an ATO cannot require them to still be supervised, if needed, whilst
instructing for them.

[slr737]

Whopity on different post you posted


UK definition of a flight:
Quote:
256 (1) An aircraft is deemed to be in flight:
(a) in the case of a piloted flying machine, from the moment when, after the
embarkation of its crew for the purpose of taking off, it first moves under its
own power, until the moment when it next comes to rest after landing;


FI(R) need to supervise 25 solo flights. As per the UK definition of flight, the QXC count as 3 flights. :)

[BillieBob]

The UK definition of a flight is no longer relevant in this context. Flight time for aeroplanes means the total time from the moment an aicraft first moves for the purpose of taking off until the moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight. (FCL.010)

[Whopity]

FI(R) need to supervise 25 solo flights. As per the UK definition of flight, the QXC count as 3 flights. Most definitions in the ANO are there to relate to specific references in the body of the ANO therefore they may not be relevant in all cases. Cross Country is one example, it is there in relation to the privileges of a AFI/FI(R) but not for the purpose of qualifying for a licence.
The ANO has also been superseded by EU regulations in some areas as stated by BB.

In the case of the 25 solo flights, the definition of a flight for aircraft recording purposes has little relevance. In that case it is the function of the FI(R) that matters; he only observes one departure and arrival and only gives one briefing. He could of course supervise 3 such flights with 3 candidates at the same time.

[Cobalt]

A pin is universally defined as a short, small piece of round metal with a sharp point. However, there are multiple contradictory definitions of angel in scripture as well as common use.

Hence, the number of angels that can dance on a pin is a matter of great debate, with no definitive outcome.

The practical solution to all this is that a supervised flight is what the supervising instructor signs off as a supervised flight, applying judgement and common sense, and accept that judgement might differ in individual cases rather than asking for ever more detailed, definitive regulation, guidance etc.... the evidence is that judgement and common sense of the regulator tends to be a lot worse in practice than the same exercised in the field.

[slr737]

Quick question for the FI sign off sheet.

Air exercice 14 is the first solo that a FI(R) cannot sign.

However air exercice 15 is the Advanced turning. So what exercice number do we use for solo circuit?

I had a FI(R) refuse his FI(A) because he put 14 in the air exercice and gatwick told him that it was first solo which he cannot do. Yeah of course. But in our school we use 14 for the first solo and then also 14 for the solo consolidation, meaning the solo circuit after the student has made is first solo under a FI(A).

So use 13 for circuit (which is prior first solo 14) or use 14b or just write solo circuit in the air exercice number column??

thx

[Cobalt]

Solo consolidation is exercise 12/13. So after ex. 14, you have a few solo exercises 12/13; both in the student records and in the sign-off sheet.

Why would anyone would put down Ex. 14 repeatedly? It is *first* solo, there is only one per person. The only exception I can think of is if somebody starts again after a decade or so and is following the normal course.

So somebody has to fill that form in again properly...

[slr737]

It's just silly to go from exercice 14 back to 12/13.

that's why we kept 14 for everything. 14a being the first solo, then 14b would be the consolidation circuit flown solo.

sounds more logic but who am I against Gatwick...

[MrAverage]

It may seem or even be silly but you're making up exercises that don't exist.

[Whopity]

Canddidates for an EASA PPL are required to have completed the syllabus published in AMC1 FCL.210.A which states:
(xv) Exercise 12: Take-off and climb to downwind position:
(xvi) Exercise 13: Circuit, approach and landing:
(xviii) Exercise 14: First solo:
It has never been any different, so why is this difficult to follow? If you can't comply with the requirement, you should not be instructing.

[chrisbl]

CAP 804 Section 4 Part J Subpart 1 page 2 has the answer. It explicitly states no first solos. A good source of reference for every Head of Training and a document even examiners should know as well.

[nick14]

You could never have a continuation of exercises on the course. What do you class as circuit revision following nav training?

What exercises do you put down for a student that subsequently needs to revise exercises that has forgotten techniques/procedures.