Renting and flying in Scotland

[Rhino25782]

So I've been invited to celebrate Burn's night in January with a couple of friends in Scotland. Must be nice!

I'd like to combine this with a bit of flying to broaden my flying experience and to hopefully enjoy Scotland by air on a clear and sunny ;-) winter day. So far I've been flying mostly in California and Germany, but I'm holding a UK license.

Now here are my questions:

What's the best options to charter a small airplane (preferably C152, C172) in the Glasglow/Edinburgh area? So far, I've only found Leading Edge at Cumbernauld Airport - which seems ok. Am I missing any options?

Also, what local peculiarities should I be looking for, if any? Obviously, weather may be a show-stopper in January. I also understand that terrain is more of an issue than in North-Western Germany. Anything else?

Thanks and cheers

Patrick

[rmac]

You could end up at Tayside, which has an "airline" training type set up with lots of uniforms and gold bars, where your club check may find you with someone who tries to teach you to fly the pattern exactly by their numbers or even worse tries to alter the landing technique which has been serving you well for 20 years and over a 1000 hours ;)

[mad_jock]

There is Prestwick and Perth.

Your in the low lands so not to much hassles with the high ground.

Nothing wrong with leading edge though if its easy for you to get to.

personally I would go up to Perth. Its a more interesting airport, better stuff to go and see from the air. They have a greasy spoon there as well for food.

If you search for Scottish aero club you should get a link.

Prestwick is fine as well and friendly enough.

Jan you can get some cracking days crisp blue sky and 40k plus viz at 3000ft.

[maxred]

Your in the low lands so not to much hassles with the high ground.
Except Ben Lomond, 3900, Glasgow MSA (IFR), 3K from North, 4.5k from all other directions, and surrounding hills circ 4k.

Oh, and Goat Fell at just shy 3k.

Agree Perth though as best option:ok:

Enjoy

[mad_jock]

If your up for an hour you will be hard pushed to get near that. unless your straight there and straight back. If you wanted to you wouldn't have to stray anywhere near peat bog country unless you wanted to.

And its hardly takeoff and into the great glen in 10 mins.

hell what do I know I never really flew down that way. Only brought planes down from up north for Maint. And very rarely strayed over to Loch Lomond way.

Compared to winging it up Glen Esk and over past Loch Nagar then through the Gru into speyside its pretty easy terrain in my book.

[Rhino25782]

Except Ben Lomond,

Incidentally, after playing around with SkyDemon a bit, that's exactly what I've been looking at now, as my friends and I are actually staying in a place near Loch Lomond.

The idea would be to take off from Cumbernauld, head north towards Callander, then west towards Loch Lemond, circling the peak and heading back to Cumbernauld, avoiding Glasgow CTR. Hoping for this to be a scenic enough trip, just short of an hour..

Thanks for the tips, Perth may be just a little too far to drive up to for a day trip.

[maxred]

Well Cumbernauld is your best bet then. That would make a lovely trip in clear weather. Oban, and Mull for true scenery, is only 40 mins away over the mountains, so with Sky Demon in hand, plan your trip. Also out West, to say Islay/Jura, another 40 mins from CBN, can be truly wonderful on a good day, Glasgow Control no issues for transit, VRP BAI, CITY, ARDMORE, and out would be good fun.

Best

[KayKay]

Hi Rhino,

You should consider Fife. It's nearer to Edinburgh than Perth and doesn't have a "greasy spoon" - it's got a proper restaurant ! It has two PA28s and a C172 for hire. (Although I believe the C172 is up for sale, it's still there at the moment.) It's a small but friendly airfield with helpful staff. :)

The rates are keen. Fuel on site. I've flown there for years.

KayKay

[TriBeCa]

I'd suggest Border Air Cumbernauld. Aircraft are far superior in every aspect. Although Perth is a much nicer place to fly from but again, the aircraft are not as nice.

[Unusual Attitude]

I would definately suggest Perth, but then I am biased! :ok:

You can hire from ACS flight training for a Group A C152 etc however there is also a rather nice Eurostar for hire which is much cheaper, its a 3 axis microlight but will give you a much better view!

http://www.scottishaeroclub.org.uk

[maxred]

hell what do I know I never really flew down that way. Only brought planes down from up north for Maint. And very rarely strayed over to Loch Lomond way.

You should try it MJ. Join us 'westerner s' and be amazed at the beauty of the Scottish West Coast. Watch out for those pesky peaks though..

[mad_jock]

I worked for years on the west coast mostly in the islands.

And when a FI I went over there a fair bit but attacked it from a different direction via the Great Glen or Ulapool heading north.

A nice day at work

HIGHLAND AIRWAYS WEST COAST VFR - YouTube

Nobody got a video when it was 50knts plus 35knts max crosswind limits and sea spray everywhere. Some winters it was weeks in that ****e.

Its just that western corner down near Glasgow that I have only been through a few times. I have always been going North South never east west in that bit.

[piperboy84]

Hi Rhino, Scotland is a great country to fly in you will have a blast, as you can see from MJ's vid the Highlands/Islands are a must see, the slalom type S turns shown on roll-out are optional !!

[mad_jock]

It wasn't me that was flying it. But I would have done no better. The brakes can be bit of a bitch and snatch.

That aircraft was the work horse of the west coast. Every week day it shifted 1350kg of newspapers and then did 4 interisland sectors then back to INV. weekends it did a double run with freight and then up to Orkney and Shetland on a Sunday. I think it did 10 years service to the communities on the Islands. Shifted the bulk of the NHS patent's, all the prisoners going to court and of course all the locals normal pax.

It finished its days being blown up in the batman movie. And the cockpit is now sitting one of the old TRE's back garden. It has a special place in most of the pilots hearts. It was dirty with newspaper print, it was 35 years old but she looked after us all in some pretty horrendous conditions on the west coast.

[airpolice]

Rhino, I'd say your best bet is to get one of the C172s that Leading edge have at Cumbernauld. I fly both of them and G-BGIY is the nicer of the two.

Maxred VRP BAI, CITY, ARDMORE, and out would be good fun. Really? Baillieston to the City Centre to Ardmore point, at what altitude in a 172?

Imagine an engine failure over the Kingston Bridge, where are you going to put it down?

[maxred]

Imagine an engine failure over the Kingston Bridge, where are you going to put it down?

In the Clyde of course, where else. How's about the 9000 ft runway at EGPF?

Have you ever transited a Control Zone? VFR not above 2.

Anyway, how did engine failures in the Glasgow CTR come into the conversation:rolleyes:

[fisbangwollop]

Really? Baillieston to the City Centre to Ardmore point, at what altitude in a 172?

Imagine an engine failure over the Kingston Bridge, where are you going to put it down?

I guess that would be a Clyde 1 alpha arrival then?:ok:

[maxred]

I guess that would be a Clyde 1 alpha arrival then?http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

With a splash of course....

I really love going flying with a truly positive attitude:)

[airpolice]

You brought it up by suggesting the route.

I'm just wondering how many people would be happy to explain to the CAA that it was prudent to fly that route in a 172 at low level. In a rotary, it's easy, just go into the Heliport, but in a 172..... the river?

How high do you think you would need to be over the Kingston Bridge to reach the main at Glasgow airport?

I frequently cross Edinburgh Zone, but I wouldn't fly over the Castle at 2,000 feet.

The OP would be better off, IMHO, by routing Cumbernauld direct to Erskine Bridge then Alexandria for a nice view, lots of options and crossing the extended centreline at a range that would allow Glasgow App not to worry about him.

Am I really the only person who thinks that a fixed wing SEP over weegietown at low level is a bad idea?

[maxred]

Am I really the only person who thinks that a fixed wing SEP over weegietown at low level is a bad idea?

Probably, but then......

Erskine Bridge lies 1.3 miles off the 05 climb out/23 approach. So routing that way puts you over the North of the city, rather than the main drag Clyde.

Kingston Bridge lies app 3.4 miles form the 23 threshold, even in a 172, from 1800 feet that should be glide manageable.

Anyway, I do it all the time, does not bother me.

[airpolice]

Erskine Bridge lies 1.3 miles off the 05 climb out/23 approach. So routing that way puts you over the North of the city, rather than the main drag Clyde.

Kingston Bridge lies app 3.4 miles form the 23 threshold, even in a 172, from 1800 feet that should be glide manageable.

Anyway, I do it all the time, does not bother me.

3.4 miles in 1,800 feet. I'm sure that's very, very optimistic. I'd rather be over the fields adjacent to the track around the north of the city than over the industrial mess of the east end, city centre or Knightswood.

[Unusual Attitude]

I'm just wondering how many people would be happy to explain to the CAA that it was prudent to fly that route in a 172 at low level.

Best not fly out of ABZ then in case you get the good old "remain offshore, VFR not above 1000' "

Always a fun departure route dodging the seagulls......:suspect:

[maxred]

UA, funny you should mention that. I have a written complaint to NATS, about that. It was the first time I had encountered this. I was told to enter Control Zone, route Peterhead - Stonehaven, remain offshore at not above 1000', report abeam the harbour. All good-not.

I then heard another aircraft routing opposite direction, Stonehaven - Peterhead, remain offshore VFR not above 1k. The controller did not mention either of us to each other (if you get that). I asked the controller if there was a correct side to route, to avoid confliction. No answer. I asked again, this time getting a bit concerned because I could not see the oncoming traffic. I then asked the other aircraft, rather stupidly, how far off the coast he was? Literally seconds later, this aircraft passed me on my LHS, about 200 feet away, you guessed it same level - 1000'.

Now maybe I am just being thick, or missing something, but SEP, offshore, 1000', with no lane spacing, and no comms between controller/aircraft, does not bode confidence. No reply as yet from NATS.

[mad_jock]

Your onto plums complaining about that.

If you are VFR you just have to accept that you are looking after yourself. Expect to get nothing who ever you are talking to.

He doesn't have to give you any service at all in Class D your meant to look after yourself. His job is to look after the IFR traffic.

VFR against VFR he has no responsibility at all to separate you or even tell the both of you where each other is.

So in my book yes you were being thick.

And never ever go at the not below alt. Choose something strange a wee bit below it like 850ft.

[Unusual Attitude]

Doesn't surprise me Maxred,

I have to confess I've now not flown out of ABZ or even through the zone for probably a year or so as I've found them increasingly intolerant of GA.

Shame really, when I started learning to fly there in the late 90's it was a great place to fly, fond memories of 3 Cessna's in the circuit, keeping it tight over the cricket pitch to sneak in ahead of a 737 on long finals etc.

Last time I flew out of there however I had a 40min hold on the ground as they were so paranoid I might delay something commercial....an immediate turn after take off would have kept me well clear but nope I had to wait until there was virtually nothing in the airspace....:ugh:

[maxred]

If you are VFR you just have to accept that you are looking after yourself. Expect to get nothing who ever you are talking to.

MJ accepted, but that is not what I am actually complaining about.

It is the fact that it is downright Fu****g dangerous.

I was in his controlled airspace, he put me there. I could have been awkward, converted to IFR, and asked for vectors through at 4k, but no, I was being accomodating. The VFR remain at 1k, (an afterthought imho).was actually given when I was at 2k, passing south of Peterhead. I also could have said forget it, about turned, and routed clear of his airspace. I could have done a number of things.

Look, if the corridor is precisely that - piss off if you dont like it, then dont have the corridor at all. Why put pilots in a difficult situation? Whose idea was it anyway, to have the VFR corrider at 1k, offshore?

Edinburgh have the Polmont lane, north/south of the motorway. That at 2k, if you want.

[mad_jock]

These routes are the same all over the place in and out of class D.

Leeds to ecup or what ever its called is the same.

They don't care how dangerous it is. Its your choice if you are going to accept it or not.

If you don't accept it they won't let you in.

I have the opinion and operate accordingly that VFR services provided by approach radar controllers are not there for VFR traffics benefit they are only there for theirs. Once you cotton on to this and fly as if you weren't getting any service life becomes easier and also less surprising.

The not above 1000ft offshore is because you don't get in anyone's way there I think the base for radar vectors to ILS is 2500ft from that direction from memory. He didn't put you there, you requested it, the lanes have there own chart where the routings are briefed. If you don't like them don't ask for a transit VFR.

And your statement that its dangerous will be thrown back in your face because those corridors have been used ever since ABZ got the airspace and I can't remember any incidents with them being used by VFR traffic.

Its more than likely the case that in the past VFR traffic got more service than they were really due. And a combination of the auld yens retiring and standardisation by QA means the controllers can't give you a service even if they wanted to.

[maxred]

If you don't accept it they won't let you in.

Mmm, not my experience with EDI/GLA controllers. They are much more accomodating, and aware of VFR traffic, assuming they think you know what your doing:uhoh:

I know the 1000 feet thing is to keep you out of their way, does not make it right though.

If I get a reply, will let you know.

Back to topic - a 172 out of CBN, for an hours sight seeing. Lots of routes to choose from:)

[mad_jock]

They don't have to be. You can't assume that the service you get with one unit is going to be the same with another.

You need to read up on what your actually getting.

You can't expect anything more than the minimum required service.

Which is basically nothing to VFR traffic.

[piperboy84]

I,ve had the same thing as Maxred a few times but not nearly as close, basically you know traffic is coming the other way you just don't see it, but if the other guy is thinking the same as you when complying with 1000ft and off shore you know he is on the same QNH and you know he is barely off shore trying to balance the offshore instruction with engine quitting options, so will no doubt be directly opposite, what makes it harder is when you have a oil choppers coming in from the east at the same time, I always wondered why they did not keep them above 1000ft till crossing the shoreline.

The kiddie on TCAS comes in real handy

[maxred]

Piper, that was the issue. I just did not see this guy, until he flew past my left wing. Now, it was in controlled airspace, under an ATC instruction, all be it, VFR, and as MJ rightly puts it, technically on your own.

But my point is, why is this necessary?

That is the point I have made to NATS.

[Maoraigh1]

Back to topic - a 172 out of CBN, for an hours sight seeing. Lots of routes to choose fromhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif
As you're staying along Loch Lomond, there's also Oban - there was someone doing pleasure flights there this summer. Where you go may be decided at the time due to weather - some of the places are more foggy in the best winter flying conditions, and the west can differ from the east at other times.

[p1andy]

The not above 1000' offshore is only when using 34 as inbounds on the localiser are crossing the Stonehaven lane. It's only from the BoDon that you have yo be below 1000' and once clear if the ils he will let you climb further.

[topoverhaul]

As Andy says it is only when 34 is in use as then the GS crosses the coast at 2500'. The offshore bit is to ensure that you do not fly over a congested area below 1000'. If offshore you are by definition not above a congested area.
The best way to deal with conflicting traffic is to announce the altitude you will fly and ask the controller for the opposing traffic altitude and then ensure there is some separation. Under VFR in Class D traffic information is given on a workload permitting basis but I have never known it not to be provided by NATS ABZ.

[mad_jock]

I have a sneaky feeling that you were just unlucky that day and had a trainee or someone just newly qualified or the poo was hitting the fan off frequency.

I too have always found ABZ highly switched on.

I know on the ground the GA gets a very low priority, but in the air they always gave me more than required in GA.

The main thing is to never be at the max not below height. Be 50ft lower or 100 feet or something really strange 875ft ish say.

Must admit the very limited exposure I have had to the GA TCAS type units they seem pretty good. Infact personally if I was flying GA a lot they would higher up the list than a moving map GPS.

Oh and although I haven't spoken to them for years the SATCO/supervisors at ABZ were always very approachable and willing to sort stuff on the phone. I screwed up in the works machine and phoned in to say sorry and it was dealt with amusingly by the sup. Along the lines of "You can't of pissed off anyone to much because I haven't heard about it. Any way its character building for these young lads they don't expect the unexpected enough, thanks for your call don't worry about it."

[cats_five]

<snip>

Also, what local peculiarities should I be looking for, if any? Obviously, weather may be a show-stopper in January. I also understand that terrain is more of an issue than in North-Western Germany. Anything else?

Thanks and cheers

Patrick

Mountain Wave. MTW on the weather chart. It can be impossible to maintain altitude if you are in the down part, there can also be a lot of turbulence (rotor) under the wave bars.

[mary meagher]

Flying in Scotland in ye olde days....story goes that a crusty old pilot who used to fly with his dog, flew under a bridge at Inverness....
anyone have details? would it still be possible?

[Maoraigh1]

The Kessock Bridge wasn't there in the old days. A Chinook was seen to fly under it, but it was an officially permitted military flight. The guy I know who used to fly with his dog never did anything like that.
There was a report of a light aircraft doing that, but it was never traced.
A group of Spanish pilots flew under the Ballachulish Bridge, and an RAF pilot in a Pa28 flew under the Skye Bridge. All were taken to court and their unlikely explanations accepted. In Scotland non-landowning natives would never have got off.

[maxred]

In Scotland non-landowning natives would never have got off.

How true, and without becoming overtly political, true natives rarely own any land of significance.

I await being marched off to the tower......

[mad_jock]

I will give you all a challenge.

Find out how many times there have been successful aviation prosecutions in Scotland for flying related offences, not the technical paper work company type prosecutions to do with dangerous goods etc.

I know of 2 but in both cases the fine was farcical.

The CAA isn't well liked by the procurator fiscals and they don't seem to have much success with anything they try to pursue.

[fisbangwollop]

Rhino25782......getting back to your original post I would reccomend Cumbernauld, both Leading Edge and Border Air Training are very good customers of mine (Scottish information ATC) Border in particular have a very experienced instructor that will point you in the right direction, he has probably forgot more than any other pilot has learnt and a nice guy as well.

Winter can offer some fantastic opportunities for flying in clear cold stable air providing you pick your dats and study the forecast well. Both Edinburgh and Glasgow ATC are very friendly and GA oriented so if you require a crossing of their class D airspace usually not a problem traffic permitting. Once north of Cumbernauld your in class G airspace and flying over some spectacular countryside....that said it can be pretty inhospitable if things go wrong so a good idea to maintain R/T contact with Scottish Info 119.875....always a friendly voice there to help :ok:

Maybe talk soon.:cool:

[Rhino25782]

Thanks fisbangwollop and all others for some good advice on this thread. :-)