One of your adversaries is missing...(merged)

[Flugplatz]

Didn't know he was still alive. Have read Bernard Fall's excellent book "Hell in a Small Place" about Dien Bien Phu. A very good general - unfortunately

http://http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-24402278

Flug

[VinRouge]

Read "the last valley", amazing accomplishment in getting his army supplied in such a remote location.

The French got their asses handed to them.

Interesting to read, the French maintained brothels on the besieged camp pretty much to the end.

Lots of parallels with Helmand province unfortunately.

[SASless]

The French Soldiers paid a dear price at Dien Bien Phu.

Touring the Battlefield after having studied the campaign certainly showed the folly of choosing such a place for a stand.

That the General Staff were incompetent does not take away from the incredible gallantry shown by so many in that fight.

There are still some old Vietnamese Soldiers there who talk of those days if you look for them.

[onetrack]

I have never forgotten the extreme respect that was held for Giap amongst all the Australian Army officers when I was in the Green Machine.
His military prowess and his ability to develop military strategies outside conventional thinking - not to mention his fearful persistence - were his outstanding personal characteristics, and these features gave him legendary respect amongst his enemies.

I can still remember seeing the film the Viet Minh made about Dien Bien Phu, showing them dragging the artillery pieces up 45° slopes, to the tops of the mountains, so they could plaster the French troops. Talk about extreme efforts.

However, at the end of the day he was a dedicated Commo and a total warmonger, who never considered for one moment the lives of those under him. They were all totally expendable, without a shred of regret.

On that basis, he stands much lower in stature as compared to Generals such as Sir John Monash, who felt deeply the loss of each man under him, and who took great care with his planning to minimise his mens losses.

I seem to recall Westmoreland making a statement that he could have won in Vietnam, if he cared little for his troops losses, as Giap did.

I'll wager there won't be much celebration in France for him - apart from celebrating his death.

[SASless]

Westmoreland was not guilty of caring too much....as his was a simple War of Attrition.....where he hoped we would kill far more of them than they did of us.

Westmoreland had it wrong from the Git Go and no matter what folks told him....he was bound and determined to keep waging the same war.

Giap understood how to defeat the American Military....and accepted it would mean losing a lot of his own troops.

He was right in the end.....he won.....Westmoreland lost.

[Mk 1]

I can see both the above posters points of view - Yes Giap was profligate with his troops, but when your only real asset is surprise and numbers - you use what you have.

Westy did have his hands tied and there was a time after Tet in 68 when a complete win should have been possible *with* the political backing. But that was never forthcoming and the result is what it is.

Speaking as a former grunt - pretty much he was a tactical genius (with the exception of Tet). He knew that a stand up fight against the US was always going to result in a loss so he used tactics to bleed his enemy white and let public opinion in the US and Australia to win the battle for him.

Battle won against a massively numerically and technologically superior enemy - albeit on ground of his own choice.

[TBM-Legend]

Compulsory reading when I was an officer cadet - "Street without Joy" by Bernard Fall. It certainly told me why I didn't want to be a platoon commander..

I agree with this review I've posted below.

If you want to know why the U.S. keeps losing war after war, you need to read Street Without Joy.

The book is a first-hand account of the First Indochina War (1946-1954), France’s attempt to keep its colonies of Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam under its thumb, and why they failed to do so. Bernard Fall is no armchair quarterback; he spent an extensive amount of time in Vietnam during the war embedded with several French military platoons, and also exhaustively researched the war with the help of classified French government documents. Originally published in 1961, Street Without Joy was the first book that correctly diagnosed why the French were run out of Southeast Asia with their tails between their legs.

Fall also predicted that America’s efforts in Vietnam would fail for the same reasons, and that the American military leadership wouldn’t learn a single thing from the French defeat.

Put simply, France lost Indochina because the French military, from top to bottom, was completely incapable of fighting counter-insurgent warfare. Like all Western militaries, the French expected to fight in big battles where their superior numbers and equipment would give them the advantage, a la World War II. Instead, the Viet Minh bled the French out over years through hit-and-run tactics, using the Vietnamese jungle and the people to their advantage. France’s generals could not adjust to this new reality, constantly seeking to lure the Viet Minh into a “set-piece battle” that never came.

This desperate search for the set-piece battle became an obsession of the successive French commanders-in-chief in Indochina until the end of the war. But Giap, the Communist commander, had made his mistake once, in 1951, against de Lattre, and he was not going to repeat it. In dozens of different engagements involving units from single regiments to more than two divisions, Giap preferred to sacrifice those parts of his units which were hopelessly trapped rather than let himself be “sucked” into the type of meat-grinder operation which the Americans could carry out so effectively against the “human wave” attacks of North Korean and Chinese Communists in Korea.

The set-piece battle had, in fact, become the credo of not only the French who were fighting the Indochina war but of the United States which, after 1952, had become more and more directly involved in its financial and often in its strategic aspects. The now-famous “Navarre Plan,” named after the unlucky French commander-in-chief in Indochina in 1953-54, provided, according to as authoritative a source as the late Secretary of State John Foster Dulles, that the French forces were to break “the organized body of Communist aggression by the end of the 1955 fighting season,” leaving the task of mopping up the remaining (presumably disorganized) guerrilla groups to the progressively stronger national armies of Cambodia, Laos, and Viet-Nam.

America never really got over Vietnam, and as a result, our own war-hawks keep spinning ridiculous theories as to why we got our asses kicked by a bunch of commies swatting mosquitoes in the jungle. “We were stabbed in the back by the liberal media!” “We won every battle!” Doesn’t matter. The purpose of sending troops to that ****hole was to keep the Commies from taking over; the fact that the red star is flying over Saigon is all the proof we need to know we failed.

America lost the Vietnam War because we had no clue how to fight it. We lost Iraq and are losing Afghanistan because we’ve learned nothing from Vietnam.

“Street Without Joy” is the English translation of “La Rue Sans Joie,” the French nickname for a stretch of Route 1 in the Quang Tri province in central Vietnam, a vitally important road as it served as the primary land route connecting the northern and southern halves of the country. Because of its significance, the Viet Minh frequently launched surprise attacks on French convoys traveling the road, holing up in various villages along the way.

During the Vietnam War, Quang Tri was the northernmost province of South Vietnam, and Route 1 once again became a major ambush point for the Viet Cong. It was on the Street Without Joy that Bernard Fall was killed in 1967 while embedded with the 4th Marine Regiment. Street Without Joy remains one of the most important history books of the 20th century. If you have any interest in war history, read it.

[Wander00]

In this part of France there are 2 local heroes, Lattre de Tassigny and Clemenceau, both born in the same small village. For kilometres around nearly every village and city has a street named after each, and there is a very good museum in the village of their birth.

[SASless]

Any number of very well researched and written books confirm what TBM is saying.

We American's lost the War before we started sending large numbers of Troops into South Vietnam as Westmoreland was determined to use Large Conventional Units in a War of Attrition with the goal of having that elusive Set Piece Battle.

That is what Khe Shanh was all about....and even then it was a near thing depsite all of the Air Power and Artillery we could bring to bear. KS took us out into the scrub and drew our attention away from the Urban areas.

If we had paid attention to the VC Infrastructure and protected the urban areas, towns, and hamlets....rooting out the VC and ridding the SVN Government and military of VC infiltrators and sympathizers we might have fared a lot better.

At the Ia Drang fight....Giap figured out how to fight us and win. That is where the "Grab them by the Belt Buckle" concept came from. Get so close and intermingled in our lines that we could not use our fire superiority to good effect.

Western societies do not like wars of attrition....the Vietnamese knew that. They also had a cause they were willing to sacrifice for....where we did not.

Had we taken the War North and into the Sanctuaries and fought a conventional war on the Enemies home ground....then perhaps it would have been far different in outcome. After TET of '68....the NVA and VC were all but combat effective and had to rebuild over a long period of time to regain their combat power. About that time is when the Political Will of the American effort died as so many of the lies being forwarded by LBJ, McNamara, and Westmoreland became known to the American People.

The NVA did not beat us.....we defeated ourselves.

[onetrack]

SASless - There was one idiotic, over-riding policy of the war in Vietnam, that goes against the very basic idea of war - and which explains simply, why American war efforts were forever doomed there.

That policy was - that ground could be fought over, but it was never captured and securely held.
To fight an enemy, and never capture their ground and deny access of that ground to them, goes against the very basic tenet of war.

How this policy ever came into being as military strategy, is one of the enduring mysteries of the Vietnam War.
How it came to be part of standard American strategy for every war fought by America since, is an even bigger mystery.

If ever there was a policy that has led to America being bled dry by unwinnable wars, this is it.

Giap exploited that stupid policy to the max, and showed America how idiotic the policy was, by continuously sending his guerrillas back into "American" terrain that had never been secured.

[500N]

onetrack

Understand what you are saying but the Aussies in their AO
managed to get the VC / NVA to effectively give up that area
because of aggressive patrolling yet they had few bases.

[hanoijane]

Giap wrote;

"Every inhabitant is a soldier, every village a fortress"

You would have had to completely destroy everyone and everything in Viet Nam to defeat us. That's why we won.

My condolences to Dang Bich Ha.

[Evalu8ter]

HJ,
Not quite everyone....a significant number of Vietnamese citizens had no desire to fight for or join with the North. They were failed by corrupt inept leaders that relied too much on foreign help and were seemingly incapable of getting their message out. 'Strategic Hamlets' was not the answer.

I'd also wager that, in line with standard communist doctrine, several members of the NVA and COSVN cadres were 'encouraged' to join the fight under duress.

However, none of this detracts from Giap's achievements. Hal Moore's 'We are Soldiers Still' has some fascinating accounts of meeting Giap, inter alia, and is a warming tale of enemies becoming friends. As a Brit, I do permit myself the occasional rueful smile at the thought of a US general seeking a decisive battle in a foreign land only to be thwarted by a motivated guerilla force which refuses to 'play fair'......

[onetrack]

HJ - You won because you practised terrorism on a scale unseen in modern history. In case you don't recall, or weren't taught this in school - the standard technique of the NVA and VC during the Vietnam War was to enter any village in the South that wasn't supporting the Norths aims - butcher the Headman and his entire family in cold blood, display the corpses to the remaining villagers, and tell them the exact same thing would happen to them, if they didn't comply with NVA/VC demands and pay the NVA taxes.
Your country and your society is founded on terrorism and your dictatorial Govts corruption and nepotism is known worldwide. No country founded on terrorism has ever known long-term peace.

[VinRouge]

China seem to be doing ok.

[TBM-Legend]

of course the final solution was to round up every SVN person on "our" side and put them on boats off the coast, bring in the B-52's and carpet bomb the rest who must be VC, VNA or others. Re-arm and go back and sink all the boats. Voila, problem solved!

[AtomKraft]

Giap said "We'll lose ten men for every man you lose. But you'll tire before we do".

He was correct.

I notice that the 'body count', such a prominent feature of the Vietnam war, has never made a comeback.

I suspect it was deliberately abandoned after Vietnam- and of course explains why we have no idea how many Iraqis were killed in GW2.

[melmothtw]

No country founded on terrorism has ever known long-term peace.

Most countries have been founded through war or conquest in some way shape or form (USA, UK, Australia included). To the losing side, it probably looked a lot like terrorism.

[onetrack]

I beg to differ. Australia was not founded on conquest, nor terrorism. Our early settlers didn't arrive and immediately seek out the Aboriginal camps and slaughter the elders and their families, and then warn the remaining tribespeople that the same would happen to them if they didn't buckle under to white peoples demands. Neither did we impose taxes on the Abos to support our style of Govt.

The Aboriginals were largely left in peace and it was only the raiding parties of the Abo's, seeking to grab easy food, that brought about conflict. There were a few isolated massacres of Abo's, but these were not settler policy - nor were the individuals who led those massacres, supported by the other whites - and the whites who did carry out those few isolated massacres were, in the main, condemned by many other whites.

[melmothtw]

My point onetrack is that it's a just a question of perspective - one man's terrorist..., and all that. An Aborigine would likely have a different perspective on early Australian history than you do.

[SASless]

We had our chance to support the Vietminh in their fight against the French....as they fought alongside us against the Japanese.

We could have had them soldily on our side if we had done that as FDR would have wanted us to do. It was Truman who set us on the path that we followed after FDR died.


http://elliotthurwitz.com/images/hochiminh2.jpg


I suspect it was deliberately abandoned after Vietnam- and of course explains why we have no idea how many Iraqis were killed in GW2.


Have you tweaked to the vast difference between the two Wars? The second War was a conventional War fought to take and hold the enemies country, destroy its Armed Forces, and end its will to resist militarily.

The failure was in the decisions made by Paul Bremer that led to the Insurgency that had those not been made and the policies of Jay Garner been left in place....would have been avoided.

[AtomKraft]

Really SAS?

I'd say they were similar in many ways. Both were effectively guerrilla wars.

Only difference was you never labelled the Viets as 'insurgents'.

I'll give you a tip: Don't listen to what they say, watch what they do.

They counted the bodies in SEA, and it was a disaster.
What's the body count in Iraq? To the nearest 10,000? No one has a fckuing clue.

[SASless]

To point out yet another difference....in Vietnam the war started out as an Insurgency then became a Conventional War and Iraq started as a Conventional War and ended as an Insurgency.

Two completely differently scenario's but it would seem your grasp of the obvious is tenuous at best.

[AtomKraft]

SAS

Really? So Vietnam was a 'stand up' fight at the end? I think Giap might not agree.

And anyway, the main body of both wars is clearly a long period when the US waged irregular (or do you prefer asymmetric) COIN ops.

And lost.

As usual.

Because, fundamentally, they couldn't give a flying fcuk about the population of the Country they were in.

Not Korea

Not Vietnam

Not Afghanistan

Not Iraq

...and there's a few others I could mention.

[SASless]

Atom,

You have just shown your Hand.

You have your own political agenda and nothing is going to change your mind.

You spout horse **** and insist it is correct.

Off to the Peanut Gallery with you as there is no having a rational discussion with you about the topic.

AMF.

[AtomKraft]

SAS

Withdraw if you wish, but you know I'm right.

[hanoijane]

SAS is, as seem to be a surprising number of serving and ex-warriors in the Western military, still fighting his last war. One he lost.

I can understand why SAS can't quite come to terms with things - after all, America didn't exactly send its best and brightest to fight in VN - but it still surprises me that the west went into Iraq and Afghanistan shooting from the hip as in VN, then wondering why people hated you.

It is simple. If you don't control the people you won't win the war. And you don't control people by randomly lobbing noisy exploding objects in their direction, you just piss off the ones you fail to kill.

A friend who knew Giap personally told me the only thing the Americans did which really worried him was the Phoenix/F6 program. But perhaps that's too simple an answer for a military wedded to drones and the other miracle machines of this technological age.

Just a pity they don't seem to help you win things. Now, who'd like an all-singing, all dancing, F35 for Christmas? Christmas 2022 that is...

[thunderbird7]

But SASLess, as you stated at the start, the US COULD have supported the 'right' side in Vietnam and things may have turned out differently - with 'benevolent' western support the 'commie' regime MIGHT have had a different view to the west and their own people. As it was, the US was more obsessed with preventing the spread of communism and could not see an alternative viewpoint. As a result nobody won - the people of Vietnam suffered for years at the hands of both regimes (before,during and after) and a lot of good men and women died.

[BEagle]

Now, who'd like an all-singing, all dancing, F35 for Christmas? Christmas 2022 that is...

Ouch, that'll hurt some, Jane!

[SASless]

T-Bird.....I absolutely agree!

We backed the wrong side in a Civil War thinking it was a simple war to stop Communist Expansion in Southeast Asia.

We may have accomplished the expansion of Communism bit....and perhaps by standing in Vietnam we changed the thinking of the Chinese a bit. Only historians in the next twenty-thirty years might be able to determine that when Chinese documents become public information.

As I was riding the Battalion Huey Logistics flight into my base camp I came to the realization that the Wizards in Washington planned for us to be there quite some time as I noticed there were far more permanent buildings than when I left six months before. A month or so later, during a briefing at Battalion....it became very plain to me what the strategy was.

At the front of the Briefing Room adjacent to the Podium was a Score Board....similar to what we saw at foot ball or baseball games....a "Them" and "Us" tally of Dead, Wounded, Missing score.

I quickly determined that if I stayed in the Army long enough I would have yet more Tours of Combat and could very likely show up as a Digit on the Score Board.

Little did I know....that less than six weeks later I would do just that!

When it came time for my Third Tour....I opted out.

I had come home sitting up.....lying on a stretcher....and I had no intention of doing the last method.

I have great empathy for the Lads and Lasses serving in our Military today....with all the repetitive deployments they have had to endure.

[West Coast]

Atom

It's really easy to say the US didn't care about the people in those countries and hope no one challenges the assertion. It's a helleva lot harder not to be one of the sheep repeating what other have told you. Why don't you go to ground for awhile and return with a convincing argument that supports your point. I'll make this easy. Research Iraq and come back and tell me we didn't give a ****. Not to say mistakes weren't made as they sure as hell were made. That's one of the few constants of any war. Making a mistake however isn't the same as consciously writing the locals off.

Have at it.

[500N]

Atom

Further to West Coasts point, read this book.

Running the War in Iraq by Major General Jim Molan.

An aussie general who was Deputy Chief of Operations
and literally ran the Ops room for the whole war for the
CG - Commanding General.

And see what he had to go through before any missions
were approved.

Edit
Here is the link to it on Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/Running-War-Iraq-Jim-Molan/dp/0732287812/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1381272132&sr=8-1&keywords=RUNNING+THE+WAR+IN+IRAQ

[AtomKraft]

West Coast

Gooks

Slopes

Dinks

Ragheads

Skinnys

Yes, you really respected them.

And what the hell were you doing in Iraq in the first place?

Everyone knows, and no-one knows it better than Iraqis, Afghans, Koreans, Somalians and Vietnamese- that to the US armed forces theres two types of people;

1. Americans

2. Other, lesser people.

And that's why you keep losing, and why you will keep losing until you wise up.

As someone pointed out above, you can't win in someone elses country (and that's where the US invariably fights), if you keep blowing up the population.

After a while, they'll turn on you. 100% of the time.

But you never, ever show the first sign of learning that simple fact.

Bullets and bombs flying all over the shop, as usual.

[AtomKraft]

500N

I take it the book describes how tough it was to get a-shooting?

If so, the death toll suggests there was other stuff going on too. I've seen some of the footage. 'Come on! Let us shoot!' is a phrase I remember.

[500N]

Atom

Not sure what you mean by "a-shooting" but I imagine shooting the enemy
on a new op as opposed to reacting to being attacked.

Yes, Intel came in, often time sensitive as it often is, he had to make
a call based on General Casey's criteria and sometimes it frustrated
the fcuk out of the SF guys until things got going. But it was still
a process that had to be gone through before they dropped a bomb
or sent in the SF guys (one of the things they had to work out was
what was the best method to use).

Well worth reading as you got the Commanding Generals view.

Anyway, I thought it was good and gave another insight to what
we saw on the news each night.

[West Coast]

Atom

Guess you choose not to research. You seemed like one who might actually try and present a salient argument. I've erred before, I'll err again.

I'm sure those terms were used by some. I was in two conflicts during my service. While there were some derogatory names for those on the other side, they were infrequently heard. Now you just read on the Internet what I've said, so it must be true.

I also saw and was in involved in numerous acts of kindness as well. From giving a Saudi family a few gallons of gas on a highway many miles from anywhere to get them to a filling station, to taking toys to a Somali school for kids to play with. My dad used to work for a company that made volleyballs, footballs, etc. he sent several hundred of them that my Marines and I spread around differing Mogidishu schools. I saw many other acts of kind of kindness as well.
These are stories I lived personally. The tripe you post is second hand, oft repeated.
I'm under no illusions that there wasn't ugliness as well. That's how war works, but on balance from what I lived and saw there was never a hatred for the locals, didn't take too much to the guys shooting at us admittedly. If anything, there was a great deal of sympathy for the hand life dealt them.

Do you have any first hand knowledge that allows you to come to the conclusion you have?

[Robert Cooper]

I doubt it. Some of us where out there.

Bob C

[hanoijane]

Some of us where out there

And still are 'out there' by the looks of it.

FYI, you spell were 'were'.

West Coast: (oh, how I love SF...)

I think AK has done his research.

Being a worldly guy, you should know that one atrocity in a war trumps a thousand acts of kindness in the eyes of the inhabitants. That may not be fair, but it's the way things work.

In my experience, your military generally lacks discipline in the field, which is a bit of a bummer if you're trying to convince the locals that you're worthy of supporting.

You win all the battles yet lose all of the wars. Seems a touch silly to me

If I were part of a military getting my ass handed to me almost every time I wandered overseas, I think I'd like to see the outcomes change and would do everything in my power to bring about that change.

It's interesting to note that the UK military seems to have thrown away its previous talent for winning small wars and adopted your modus operandi instead, with predictable results.

I'm sure you realise that you're providing an object lesson to the PRC in how NOT to do things when they assume your role in the world. They're smart, they learn fast and they rarely make the same mistake twice...

[West Coast]

Jane

I don't see it that way. An atrocity gets more press for sure. Me handing out toys at a school isn't newsworthy, but I'm pretty sure it was noteworthy to those there.

You'll excuse me if I discount your attempt to lump a million plus US service members into a single collective as you've tried. That is unless you of have worked with all million plus service members. I have a hard time giving credibility to a statement that generalizes to that degree. That would be like me saying all British need dental work because of that's the image portrayed on the telly.

I don't know about the Chinese and the ability of over a billion folks to observe, learn and retain information. I'll leave it to Google fu experts like yourself to once again categorize a group of people over a billion strong in homogeneous terms.

You really must be a busy man (or woman) if you have the pulse of the US military and the entire Chinese people. Can you keep 2-4 am open to study the Russians and report back with authoritive statements on them as well?

I can't help but think humorously in current terms, they keep buying US debt, how smart can the Chinese be?

[hanoijane]

But... but... you've just disproved your own argument. You CAN generalise - all Brits DO need extensive dental work :-)

There's nothing wrong with generalising if the topic warrants it. People generalise. It's part of life. Get over it.

I did prefix my observations with 'In my experience...'. Did you miss that? And I could, of course, be wrong. However, the observation that you consistently win all (or most of) your battles yet lose all (or most of) your wars is based on fact, not opinion.

I presume you're being deliberately obtuse when you suggest that a billion Chinese need to learn stuff. They don't. They just need to learn to do what they're told to do by those few who have learnt stuff.

My experience with Russians is limited (even my beloved Mig was a Chinese copy), but I'll do some cramming in the 2 am - 4 am slot and see what I can come up with for you :-)

As for the Chinese buying US debt, the fat lady has yet to sing in that particular saga. Best wait to see how it all pans out before you smugly claim that as evidence of Chinese folly. They've always played a longer game than the west.

[West Coast]

You're free to generalize, nothing to get over. It simply degrades the strength of your argument. I try to hold a higher standard but that's the nature of an anonymous forum, you can get away with a lot.

No, I did see your disclaimer. It really doesn't say much. If my travels brought me across members of your countries military, I recognize any observations of those particular members wouldn't represent anything but a statistical blip on the radar and not an accurate representation to draw any accurate conclusions on. I served in two conflicts over the course of a decade plus in the US military, dealing with every service but the Coast Guard and can't fathom trying to generalize and expect credibility of my observations. Now if you think as a member of a foreign military you have a greater understanding of the US military, I'm all ears. As matter of fact, can you provide a bio of your military service and what interaction you had with US service members? Greatly appreciated.

Obtuse? Wouldn't think of it. Simply replying to your generalization. Now that you choose to sharpen your focus beyond your original choice of words I ask then, how many are you still discussing? I wouldn't want to misunderstand your intent again, so you speak in high terms of whom exactly? Provide us insight into senior Chinese leadership in the military and in civil service.

[hanoijane]

You seek to demean the quality of this discussion by arguing in a western way. Empirical evidence and all that nonsense. You need to read Thomas Kuhn.

One of the joys (and there are many) of this forum is that it's reasonably anonymous. An anonymity I should like to preserve, so I'll politely decline your request for my service records.

All I'll offer is that I currently write stuff for a living, mainly on matters involving SE Asia, which is why I stumble into so many American and Chinese military souls of late. Both seem to have a very active interest in the region.

Provide us insight into senior Chinese leadership in the military and in civil service.

You silly dumpling! People PAY me for that. You don't get it for free, you get my generalisations instead.

[West Coast]

Seeking evidence when arguing a point, the nerve of me. I guess I'm guilty as charged.

I understand to a dregree about your desire to remain anonamous. I however recognize the more anonymous a person, the lessor the burden of posting the truth. It allows one to be more economical with the truth if you will. That said, the truth need not be a victim of an anonymous forums unless the poster chooses to allow it, and you have. Curious why?
I can't help but wonder as a writer if you would post such obvious incorrect generalities under your real name or if professional standards would dictate differently. Be those standards yours or those above you.

You certainly can give a general description of your military service and not risk your privacy. It happens all the time on pprune and no one is outed. You've already hinted at it. Would help with the credibility gap that's opening up for you.

Work=Yuan for you, I appreciate that. Tell me where I might be able to purchase your companies product then.

[hanoijane]

In writing as in life, there is no 'truth', there's only perspective. Anonymity certainly encourages a flexibility of perspective, but it doesn't demand it. FWIW, when I encounter an interesting soul I try to offer a perspective in which I believe.

Despite receiving an education in the West, I don't completely understand the western military mindset. You'd be surprised (or perhaps not...) how reading this forum offers a valuable insight into that mindset. Not in terms of systems or tactics, but in terms of how you think. If I understand how you think, I can make reasonable predictions about how you may act or react in a given set of circumstances.

However, I'm not here to establish my credibility or gain your respect. I care little for either. If I offer an argument which interests you, please engage. If I don't, then walk on by.

To return to our topic, my generalisation - noted by Giap - that 'Americans seem to repeat the same basic military mistakes' is both true and, to us, completely illogical. If you can offer insight on why this may be so, please continue our discussion. If not, then feel free to raise your gaze seawards and continue watching out for those sharks...

BTW, I'm paid in $'s. And I use it to buy gold. It's the Asian way :-)

[hanoijane]

With Giap being interred today, I though you might like this perspective from an American In Viet Nam.

By Calvin Godfrey for Thanh Nien News:

When General Vo Nguyen Giap was my age, he was building a road that would take the Viet Minh from the Chinese border down to the Japanese and Vichy French-controlled capital and finally (years and years later) all the way to Ho Chi Minh City.

He’d go on to endure the loss of his wife and millions of comrades in his pursuit of freedom—not as a trite abstraction, but as the right of Vietnamese people to determine their own fate.

Gen. Giap did this, it would seem, because he believed that no one life mattered so greatly as Vietnam’s independence.

The irony, of course, is that Vietnam might never have accomplished everything it did without him.

A self-taught military tactician, Giap engineered the defeat of the French, the Japanese, the Australians, the Americans, the Chinese, and the Khmer Rouge.

Given his philosophy, the general might not have wanted us to make a big affair over his passing this past weekend. I almost didn’t write this column. But John McCain changed my mind.

Seated in the midst of a catastrophic government shutdown engineered by his own sociopathic party, McCain took time out of his busy schedule to sit down and write Giap’s obituary for the Wall Street Journal.

Leaving aside, for the moment, the generally mediocre quality of the paper itself, asking McCain to write the last words on one of the greatest military tacticians in history is sort of like asking the kid who repeated the ninth grade twice to give your school’s valedictorian address.

In a way, it was a stroke of genius.

McCain, as a human being and a soldier, reminds us all of just how remarkable Giap was because he is so profoundly mediocre. Born into a naval dynasty, McCain grew up rich and spoiled.

When Giap was a teenager, he was arrested for joining an anti-colonial resistance movement. When McCain was a teenager, he was arrested for cursing out two girls who didn’t appreciate his advances.

McCain graduated near the bottom of his class; Giap taught at the most elite school in Vietnam.

Giap retook his entire nation from some of the most ruthless armies the world has ever seen; McCain crashed two airplanes and blacked out a village in Spain before he ever flew his first combat mission.

After miraculously surviving the greatest disaster in the history of the US Navy by hiding in the break room of the USS Forestall, McCain signed up for Operation Rolling Thunder—one of the most hellacious and pointless bombing campaigns in the history of mankind.

It would be one of many losing campaigns for McCain—something Giap couldn’t have told you anything about.

Naturally, “He beat us in war but never in battle” is richly flavored with the many chips that John McCain has shouldered through his long and checkered life.

Thought the piece alludes to McCain’s careful reading and intelligent questions about the war, his inferences prove to be the stuff of a frat house moron.

“Americans tired of the dying and the killing before the Vietnamese did,” he wrote. “It's hard to defend the morality of the strategy. But you can't deny its success.”

In the end, McCain chalks America’s retreat from Vietnam after two decades of savage bombing and killing as a function of our superior humanity.

The statement belies his obtuse grasp of the thinking of the various white people who engineered the war—men who were happy to kill as many people as logistically possible in order to “scare” the Soviet Union.

In McCain’s mind, it is harder to defend the morality of resisting an unprecedented bombing campaign than it is to unleash one.

Which explains why he’s spent his entire political career viciously pushing for more killing in Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Libya, Georgia and most recently Syria.

McCain has learned nothing from his many personal and political failures, despite Giap’s willingness to teach him.

“Any forces that wish to impose their will on other nations will face failure,” Giap told the UK’s Independent in 2004.

That’s something that might look good in McCain’s obituary. Or on his tombstone.

[Toadstool]

Woah HJ, that's certainly inflammatory.

[Pontius Navigator]

Sadly that is not an obituary for General Giap but slander of McCain by Godfrey on an ego trip.

[TBM-Legend]

HJ. please explain how the victors treated their fellow countrymen post 1975>>

While initially a form of prisoner-of-war camp, the government of Vietnam's reeducation camps were greatly expanded after the fall of Saigon. An estimated 1-2.5 million people were imprisoned with no formal charges or trials.

[hanoijane]

They were treated quite poorly. Wiki tells the story better than I:

Reeducation camp - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reeducation_camp)

Although tragic, the re-education camps are, surprisingly, not the main source of complaint for the South Vietnamese of that era. What really upset them was the North Vietnamese policy of bulldozing the ARVN war graves, a petty decision and one which created divisions in that generation which will never heal.

[hanoijane]

Oh, TBM, if you want to know how the ARVN/and chums treated their prisoners, you could do worse that book a week at Six Senses Con Dao, a very attractive resort on the island of Con Dao visited by the likes of Brad and Angelina.

Hire a scooter - the resort management will arrange - and drive over the hill into the small town. The many low buildings you'll pass on your right are the remains of the camps run by your side. The sandy wooded area to your left is where most of the bodies are buried. Markers will tell the story, and some of the camps can still be visited.

You can also pop along to the interesting cemetery where Vo Thi Sau is buried. It has some nice examples of Communist-era patriotic architecture if you're into that sort of thing.

Finally, don't forget to hire a boat and go see the baby turtles. It's fun, and if you catch some fish the guys who protect the sanctuary can usually be persuaded to cook them for you.

[500N]

HJ

"A self-taught military tactician, Giap engineered the defeat of the French, the Japanese, the Australians,"

Really ?

Name one battle where the NVA won against the Australians and Kiwis ?

And why were NVA signals intercepted that said stay out of the Australian AO
because it was too "hot", partly because of the SAS, the Phantoms of the Jungle.

[Evalu8ter]

HJ,
Thanks for this. I doubt that I've ever read such a self-important, nasty piece of left-wing drivel in my life. 'It's all about me and my views' by Godfrey. It's always the worst aspect of any socialist/left winger that they have a pathological inability to recognise the validity of anyone elses point of view or opinion. If you dare to oppose people like him you're instantly branded a fascist or reactionary.

I guess you knew exactly what reaction this piece would engender and I'm happy not to disappoint. The Indochina wars revealed the best and worst of humanity; atrocities were perpetrated by both sides. Perhaps the long view of history will view the long Vietnamese struggle for autonomy as a journey with several ghastly diversions along the way - deforestation, Mai Lai balanced against Hue and 're-education'.

None of this, especially Godfrey's invective, tarnish Giap's patriotism and achievements.

Oh, BTW, he's also factually incorrect to serve his purposes - McCain was on deck in the A4 next to the one the Zuni went off from and had to emergency egress to escape. Godfrey's smug left-wing intellectual elite have probably never experienced terror like that other than when the local organic shop has run out of lentils.....

[MG]

Let's not forget that Thanh Nien News is a Vietnamese newspaper. I guess that an English translation of the title could be 'Daily Vietnam Mail'.

The original Wall St Journal obituary is here:
http://http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304626104579119221395534220.html (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304626104579119221395534220.html)

[racedo]

Poor article but ultimately Giap won because he knew what he wanted..................nobody else did.

[Pontius Navigator]

500N, that's what I thought.

Godfrey referred to McCain 4 more times than he referred to Giap - a balanced view? Hardly.

[onetrack]

HJ - An excellent piece of propaganda, on a par with the best that came out of Nth Vietnam in the late 1960's.

If you claim to have beaten the Australians in Phuoc Tuy province - I'd like to hear how the Australian troops effectively reducing NVA D445 Battalion to a total strength of 3 men by 1970, can be classed as "winning", in your view? :rolleyes:

You may gloat all you like - but you can claim no high moral ground, because your regime lacks even a basic shred of morality - and your regime is built upon the souls of millions of slaughtered Sth and Nth Vietnamese innocents, whose blood cries out from the ground you walk on.

[hanoijane]

onetrack:

Dear friend,

I was quoting an article written by another, not stating my personal views.

Can you spot the difference? Probably not.

[Pontius Navigator]

HJ, I can :)

I suspect, when you posted, that you were not entirely in agreement with the obit.

An obit should be about the man and not the obituarist.

[hanoijane]

Calvin, like SAS, is angry. About what I know not. He's a far better photographer than writer.

The reason I posted the piece was to demonstrate the vitriol which Americans - young and old, right or left wing - still seem to feel as part of their collective memory of the American War. The Vietnamese, especially the young, care nothing for those days.

Why does this forum continue to act as a repository for old mens angry and emotional war stories? There's an 'Aviation History' category for these guys.

Off you go. All of you. Shoo!

[West Coast]

Yet, here you are providing more fuel to the fire.

[Mach Two]

There's an 'Aviation History' category for these guys.

And there are all sorts of communist sites out there for you.

As for your post:
Aviation - no.

History - more like twisted propoganda.
Dislike. :=

Signed,

Serving military aircrew.

Take it somewhere else.

[Dan Winterland]

Everyone has a position on history depending on which side they are from. Those with sensitive dispositions are advised not to visit the war museum in Ho Chi Minh (Saigon) which is owned by the victors. The fact that US dog tags are for sale in the museum shop is slightly sobering. The second indo-china war is known as the American war to differentiate it from the first, which was the French war.

American's are also advised not to take the opportunity to go shooting with the Vietnamese army at Cu Chi. Every time you fire a shot from your AK47, the weapons instructor shouts ''One American!"

[500N]

Pontious

What I put wasn't all from books. They were from people
who were actually there and did it.

[Brian Abraham]

Love HJs bit of comparing which side was the worse in the treatment of the opposite side. Recall driving into Ben Tre to see a gentleman hanging by his ankles from the arch way at the entrance to the city. Had been disembowelled with the entrails hanging to the ground. Was the city chief it turned out and Charlie had payed him a visit during the night to turn him to their side. Refused so the beating heart was cut from his nine year old sons chest and attempt made to force the gent to eat it. Refused so above treatment followed.

[hanoijane]

Oh god, another one. Hi, Brian.

Thank you for your war story. It's added a great deal to the debate. In fact, it's totally made me rethink my position.

I now see that everyone in Viet Nam in 1967 holding views opposing your own was indeed a rabid communist whose sole pleasure in life came through practicing some form of unimaginable cruelty on their opponents.

I must thank you for taking the time out your late-teen years to pop over there and teach those horrid people the true meaning of civilised democracy. And I'm confident that, when Viet Nam comes to its senses as a nation, it will thank you too.

In the meantime, please feel free to regale us with more war stories. Could you tell us how you spent your off-duty hours passing toy fluffy bunnies to the grateful masses, while simultaneously doing your flight planning for a sneak attack on Ho Chi Minh's private toilet? Or how you scared the living daylights out of an entire NVA regiment simply by singing a rousing chorus of 'Waltzing Matilda' in a rough and manly voice?

I'm on the edge of my seat...

[Toadstool]

I kinda quite like you HJ, not that you care I'm sure. I can see how you completely wind some people up but, despite some of your posts, you do have the ability to amuse.

[Wholigan]

hanoijane ..... very smart you may be, but I have to warn you that you are getting very close to the line of what is OK and what is not, in terms of deliberate provocation and winding up.

Furthermore, you claim that people writing about their personal experience is not adding to the debate, and please don't try to claim that "Thank you for your war story. It's added a great deal to the debate. In fact, it's totally made me rethink my position" is anything other than such a claim). You then proceed to ridicule what they have said and ridicule what you assume they will say and even ridicule their nationality, and I'm not quite clear how that is "adding to the debate"!

Please stop doing this and use your undoubted skill and talent to debate without sh1t-stirring and provoking. Thank you.

[hanoijane]

Wholigan:

Tránh voi chẳng xấu mặt nào.

There are two ways to debate. Rational argument or ridicule.

When rational argument fails, I turn to ridicule. If ridicule fails to bring the miscreant to his/her senses, I walk away.

During my brief and somewhat infrequent visits to the site I have been singularly unimpressed by the quality of argument presented by 90% of posters. You want examples? The F35 thread. It reads like a cross between a manufactures video promotion site and a schoolboys wet dream about 'fighter planes'. The occasional rational intervention disappears into the morass. Yet it's a serious issue, right? Meant to be the subject of serious and considered debate?

You suggest I ridicule a posters nationality, yet you expect me to sit idly by while these same contributor besmirches my countrymen? You suggest I 'sh1t stir' when contributors post one-sided videos or express their political views, yet you seek to deny me the right to challenge these views in open debate?

I present ALTERNATIVE ARGUMENTS to those widely held here. If that's too much for you and your contributors to cope with, just say. I can spend my time elsewhere.

But isn't it ironic that a forum allegedly composed of the defenders of personal freedom should seek to limit or restrain the ability of those holding opposing views to express those views, and to do so in the style and language in which the vast majority of the forum also contributes?

Perhaps I've been fortunate. Until now, my 'smartness' has always been seen as an asset when dealing with members of the Western military. They seem well able to cope with honest (or blunt) observations. Why can't you?

[longer ron]

HJ
It is also ironic that if you upset the moderators on here you will just be banned for a while...in certain other countries if you criticise the miltary or government then the punishment would be a little more harsh :)

rgds LR

[West Coast]

Jane

There's a credibility gap between the level of intelligence you claim and your postings here.

You infer you have the ear of the western military. If true it's because of rational persuasive argument, rising far above the level of what you post here.

[AtomKraft]

I listened to Gen. Giaps obituary this evening on BBC Four.

Nicely done, warts and all.

Clearly, had this guy been one of ours, he'd have been recognised as a military genius. :ok:

My Daughters' been asked to do a short lecture on 'military history', and she's chosen Giap. probably influenced by her recent visit to Da Nang.

She told me that she can't find much on him....

For a guy who won the French war, and then followed it up by winning ' the American war'.......

I guess history isn't always written by the winners.

Poor.

[500N]

Atom

" She told me that she can't find much on him...."

I would suggest she start with the Wiki entry for him because as much
as everyone criticises Wikipedia, it does give links and references to
better sources.

Because he fought for so long and across various campaigns, I think
his military history is going to need to be pieced together by hand
from the various sources.

ie In the wiki entry, all the major wars / campaigns are mentioned
but then someone would need to delve into those to extract where
his influence was.

Juts my HO.

[Wholigan]

hanoijane - I'm not debating with you, I'm merely telling you the rules by which we all have to abide in here. If you think someone is not abiding by those rules, you report the fact to the moderators and they deal with it. You do not resort to breaking the rules yourself.

You may decide that you like to use ridicule in your "debates", but it is not permitted in here, because it is a form of deliberate provocation the way you use it, and deliberate provocation causes threads to descend into a personal war shambles whereupon they get closed or deleted, serving nobody's intended purpose.

The fact that you "have been singularly unimpressed by the quality of argument presented by 90% of posters" etc does not release you from following the rules.

"You suggest I ridicule a posters nationality, yet you expect me to sit idly by while these same contributor besmirches my countrymen." No, I expect you to report anything with which you are unhappy to the moderators.

I do NOT "seek to deny me the right to challenge these views in open debate". I seek to get you to challenge them without resorting to ridicule and deliberate provocation etc.

"They seem well able to cope with honest (or blunt) observations. Why can't you?" Quite frankly, I really don't mind (or care) what observations you make or which side of any debate anybody is on. I most certainly can personally cope with such observations, but that is not what we are talking about here. My job is to keep threads civilized and running within the rules and that is what I shall do.

I merely gave you a gentle warning in a civilized manner that you were close to transgressing the forum rules with your posts. You seem to have reacted with an attack on me. I repeat my earlier request that you find a different method of debating in here.

If you still don't like the rules then please feel free to "spend my time elsewhere", but I'd rather you stayed and acted within the forum rules, because - as you say - you have views that are opposed to those held by a lot of people in here and it is healthy to have the differences aired.

(PS: I didn't see any elephants. ;) )

[melmothtw]

I kinda quite like you HJ, not that you care I'm sure. I can see how you completely wind some people up but, despite some of your posts, you do have the ability to amuse
Toadstool, was thinking the exact same thing. I find HJ hilarious, and in a good way. The guy genuinely cracks me up...

PS: Wholigan, you're not the Pprune police.

[denachtenmai]

PS: Wholigan, you're not the PPRuNe police.
:ooh: Oh yes he is.
Regards, Den.

[melmothtw]

Quote:
PS: Wholigan, you're not the PPRuNe police.
http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/icon25.gif Oh yes he is.
Regards, Den.

Point taken, in which case it's even more important that he lighten up a bit. Freedom of speech is about defending the right to speak of those who's views you don't agree with.

HJ can be 'provocative', but he's never abused anyone or been unneccessarily nasty. I'm one of a number of people here who actually find the guy really rather funny, and who think that PPruNe would be a duller place without him.

[hanoijane]

Wholigan:

I'm not debating with you either. I've offered you an explanation of why I write in manner I choose, that's all.

I have no intention of modifying my writing style to fit in here, nor of resorting to a higher authority when I come across individuals expressing sentiments I consider offensive. I can deal with them myself. Thus it appears my time here is limited to this one post.

I should like to use it to thank those who have enjoyed my posts and those who took the time to write to me off-forum. I wish you well.

To those perplexed, enraged or bored by my posts, I offer my apologies for being unable to express myself sufficiently well in your language to reach you. I did try.

Finally, Wholigan, I think you need to remember that this is the Internet, not real life. While no-one wishes to see a forum descend into anarchy, chaos or bad language, a 'good' forum is a broad church, one that restrains its characters through the strength of its contributors, not the random application of rules in the hands of one moderator.

Take care guys. Good luck to all.

[melmothtw]

Finally, Wholigan, I think you need to remember that this is the Internet, not real life. While no-one wishes to see a forum descend into anarchy, chaos or bad language, a 'good' forum is a broad church, one that restrains its characters through the strength of its contributors, not the random application of rules in the hands of one moderator.

Said it better than I could.

[denachtenmai]

hanoijane,
You are obviously well educated and erudite, but please don't forget that all internet fora are subject to some form of behaviour policing, whilst not condoning some of the moderation on pprune I understand that there is a need for it, and wholigan is one of the more enlightened ones :O
Don't leave just because you are upset at what you see as discrimination, it isn't ;)
Regards, Den.

[West Coast]

Jane

It may be the Internet, but also ain't the Wild West. You can and will be sanctioned. I should know.

It's their toy set and should you choose to stay here and indulge yourself in whatever escapism from your real persona, then simply chill out as the kids say.

You serve a purpose here, should you wish to remain here...well, you figure it out.

[AtomKraft]

HJ

Keep it coming. I'm sure many on here enjoy your posts and it's good to hear from the 'other' side, particularly with regard to Vietnam.

Lord knows, the US side is well represented....and quite vocal.

[AtomKraft]

500N

Ta. The Wiki was about it- I haven't looked much myself.

She was looking for a biography of the famous General, is there one?

[4ROCK]

HJ

Get your a...s back here NOW....!!!

I love a fight - either real or in the ether - and you my friend were putting up one hell of a (one-side!) scrap. This forum needs a few 'characters' and I for one don't want to see you fall on your own sword!

Show us a sign................:confused:

[chuks]

It's interesting, the high esteem some of these lefties hold themselves in, when they cannot even get the simple things right. Our Jane is happy to push this article forth, one that has John McCain hiding in the "break room" of the "USS Forestall," when he was out there on the flight deck of the USS Forrestal. Is it being a grumpy old man, or just some sort of amateur historian, to find such childish errors rather grating, especially given the prating tone of the whole article?

McCain was "spoiled"? Well, find out how he got that way and spoil a few more children in the same way; he seemed to hold up pretty well under mistreatment as a POW!

I found that McCain wrote a rather gracious obit for the late General Giap, when he might as well have expanded a bit on such aspects of Giap's career as the planning for the disastrous Tet Offensive, the North Vietnamese counting on that popular uprising that never happened. A fire on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier comes off as a weenie roast gone wrong compared to the Tet Offensive, if anyone cares to keep score in that way.

I love that closing quote from Giap, the one about facing inevitable failure for the imposition of one's will on "other nations." Nothing at all in that to do with the Communists of North Viet Nam going to war with whatever the government of South Viet Nam was, then? Noo, of course not; that was simply "reunification," and woe betide those not of the Communist persuasion who have missed that simple fact!

Jane, old bean, if you really, really understood "irony" in the way that you obviously think that you do, then you might not have posted that article. As it is, I see you fitted with the usual leftist blinkers, there. You are no ironist at all, someone posing as ignorant; you are just another lefty who's genuinely ignorant, albeit one with a rather spectacular ability to annoy.

If the quality of Jane's prose and thought matches his self-assessment of it, then he must have been in the running for that Nobel Prize for literature, just narrowly beaten by Alice Munro. Well, better luck next time!

[500N]

Not that I know of but when I looked at his Wiki page,
I noticed this book was referenced plenty of times so
that might be a good start.

Macdonald, Peter (1993). Giap: The Victor in Vietnam. Fourth Estate.
ISBN 1 85702 107 X.

[Roland Pulfrew]

Wholigan:

I'm not debating with you either

Finally, Wholigan, I think you need to remember

Oh dear, and now lecturing one of the more amenable moderators on the forum.

[melmothtw]

Quote:
Wholigan:

I'm not debating with you either
Quote:
Finally, Wholigan, I think you need to remember
Oh dear, and now lecturing one of the more amenable moderators on the forum.


To be fair, it was Wholigan who was doing the lecturing. HJ was just fighting his corner...

[Roland Pulfrew]

To be fair, it was Wholigan who was doing the lecturing. HJ was just fighting his corner...

Wholigan was doing his job. He is a moderator and the forum has rules. Don't like the rules, don't participate. HJ was just playing his/her usual game of tweaking the tiger's nose.

Oh well... Việc người thì sáng, việc mình thi quang

[melmothtw]

Fair enough Roland, but I guess it comes down to how you interpret "the rules". As evidenced by a great many responses in support of HJ, it would appear that Wholigan may have confused "ridicule and deliberate provocation" with irreverance and humour.

[AtomKraft]

500N

Ta again.:ok:

I shall send off for that book.

It won't arrive here soon enough for Lou to read it though.

I'm amazed Giaps' biography cannot be found (unless perhaps in Vietnamese?) on the web.

I wonder why?

[Roland Pulfrew]

it would appear that Wholigan may have confused "ridicule and deliberate provocation" with irreverance and humour.



But then we don't know if anyone thought the "ridicule and deliberate provocation" was offensive and complained to the Mods. Sadly one man's irreverance and humour is another man's offence, and nowadays that is also laid down in some (very silly IMHO) legislation. :(

[hanoijane]

Golly, people are being nice. I feel all teary-eyed :-)

but I'd rather you stayed and acted within the forum rules, because - as you say - you have views that are opposed to those held by a lot of people in here and it is healthy to have the differences aired

Hmmm, does writing in colour imply authority? If so, I shall write in colour too.

You seem to dance between accepting that someone with a different perspective is going to have a different approach towards discussion - and defending his views, which will be necessary - and wanting to arbitrarily impose a set of rules which are, at best, open to interpretation and at worst offer the opportunity to stifle any debate with which you disagree.

Wholigan, until I clearly breach your rules I suggest you offer me the flexibility to post as I wish and discuss as I see fit. If I breach the rules it will be apparent to all, and a ban will be fully deserved. If I skirt around the boundaries, that's my business, not yours. You come into play when I cross them, and only then.

It's been nice having this chat with you. I hope we've both learnt something, though you do need to brush up on your translation of Vietnamese expressions :-)

[melmothtw]

Glad to see you back HJ, and good to see you lost none of your subversiness during your self-imposed exile (all half a day of it ;-)

[hanoijane]

It wasn't a self-imposed exile, I assumed I'd be banned for having the temerity to reply to a moderator. It could still happen...

I was sorely tempted to post my entire military history just to keep West-thingy happy, but the thought of the ass-kicking I'd get from my betters outweighed the happiness I'd feel from tweaking his nose. Perhaps one day?

Anyway, where were we before that moderator fellow interrupted my line of thought? Oh yes, we were discussing, in a round-about way, the political system in VN.

Dear comrades, the Vietnamese are the LEAST communist people you are ever likely to encounter. We worship the dollar. And gold. Nothing else. Private enterprise is everywhere. Profit is our religion, personal wealth our dream. The political system is an irrelevance, ignored by most, bribed as required.

I suspect there are one or two souls in Ha Noi who may disagree with me, but my best friend (who vividly remembers watching the Arc Light raids from his rooftop as a child) considers his mission in life to be the acquisition of everything Apple have ever produced, plus a cool BMW SUV to drive around in. He's pretty typical of the new Vietnamese. A communist country stuck in a totalitarian past? Don't make me laugh!

Asia Faces Forwards. This is our century, and we have no intention of letting our past success or failures define us. Trying to define us by repeating your war stories on here does you no credit. Your pain is your own. Let it go, huh?

[West Coast]

Given the dogma you purport, I would think you should be promoting relations with the US.

Or is the US simply too evil? Except in your paycheck of course.

[BEagle]

Dear comrades, the Vietnamese are the LEAST communist people you are ever likely to encounter. We worship the dollar. And gold. Nothing else. Private enterprise is everywhere. Profit is our religion, personal wealth our dream. The political system is an irrelevance, ignored by most, bribed as required.

Greed and corruption. What an appalling way of life....

[thunderbird7]

Well, to be fair, that about sums up the UK and USA too! Just that we invent all sorts of 'rules' to make it 'legal' to dodge the taxman and screw the poor...

Show me a household in the UK that DOESN'T covet shiny things...

As for the thread, Giap was an impressive general.. Nothing wrong with pulling up a sandbag and recounting some old stories though - its what defines us all and I'm sure he would have done the same. So, HJ, no need to belittle people for what they did - you'll be old one day too!

Anyway, this must be the longest thread that's crept without anyone mentioning a Nimrod... ;)

[chuks]

Those who fought the war on the North Vietnamese side have been pushed aside, left undervalued and largely ignored by this new generation of narcissist greedheads, as exemplified by this "Jane" figure. (Even if he/she is exaggerating his/her persona here, we are still dealing with a Weltanschauung that's obviously defective. Sorry to lapse into another language, but I have no idea how to phrase that in either Vietnamese or English. Perhaps one of our alert correspondents can help with this.)

Well, I suppose anyone with any brains to speak of must find it almost impossible to square the ideology of Karl Marx with whatever passes for a system of government in today's Viet Nam, so that a retreat into simple greed and corruption must make a certain amount of sense. That would assume a measure of brains, not self-respect or a spine. Yes, you running-dogs, take the money, keep your mouth shut, and write such crap as that bitchy little essay on John McCain, and you shall get along just fine. Or, if you fall victim to the predatory regime you serve, you shall not be greatly missed.

Damaged as our western democracies are, we are still streets ahead of China, Viet Nam, Russia and Cuba. Hopscotch all over the map in that way, one is still looking at various dysfunctional, rather inhuman systems, all the product of warped belief in what Marx once envisioned.

As my Marxist sociology prof recently said, "There is no system today that calls itself Marxist that is true to the ideals of Karl Marx!" to which I could only add, "Amen, Comrade!"

[hanoijane]

West-thingy:

I do. It's part of my job. (Promoting the relationship, that is.)

Chuks:

You really did make me laugh with your comments, not because they were silly but because they're absolutely correct. Your first two paragraphs are as accurate an assessment of present-day Viet Nam (et moi) as I've ever come across. Suddenly I like you. Please, will you be my internet lover?

Thunderbirds-are-go:

Why do you weep about the Nimrod? Do you miss spending day after day chasing naughty Spanish fishing boats?

[hanoijane]

Greed and corruption. What an appalling way of life...

Yes. True.

Corruption in the UK (http://www.transparency.org.uk/our-work/corruption-in-the-uk)

Mrs Thatcher implanted the gene of greed in Britain - Comment - Voices - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/mrs-thatcher-implanted-the-gene-of-greed-in-britain-8565716.html)

[melmothtw]

You have to stop this HJ. I'm at an especially dull conference right now, and my chuckling at your comments is getting me some severe looks...

[parabellum]

I don't think his name is hanoijane at all, I think its Thrush, melmothw could be his twin.

[Lonewolf_50]

It wasn't a self-imposed exile, I assumed I'd be banned for having the temerity to reply to a moderator. It could still happen...
1. Get over yourself.

EDIT: Is there any reason you cannot have made your opening post comment in the thread about General Giap (http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/524946-general-vo-nguyen-giap-dies-aged-102-a.html)? That thread was begun on 04 October, yours seven + days later.

2. I read the McCain piece. My response was "meh" but I understand why the WSJ published it.

3. I find the OP spin and vitriol a poor tribute to General Giap. Given how much General Giap gave to his nation, a tribute aimed at using the General as a springing off point to throw muck is poor form.

4. I have at the moment no pithy remark in Viet Nam's tongue to offer. I work with five men whose family came over from Viet Nam in the 70's in part to avoid the joys of the re-education camps. I could ask them to provide me one such pithy line but I won't. You may not be surprised to learn that these men love America in a way that many born here cannot fathom.

[Heathrow Harry]

Giap was successful because he really understood his enemies and their strengths & weaknesses

He'd worked in the west and studied military history in depth

His aim was NEVER to meet the enemy in a battle where they could use their strengths - if necessary, wait, retire, retreat until he could fight the battle HE wanted

I just wish I thought we had a few like him around as SO's in our forces

[chuks]

The old time circuses usually had a sideshow, a row of tents on the side, hence the name. The side show had the bearded lady, the fat lady, the tattooed lady, the contortionist... and sometimes the geek, an unschooled unfortunate whose schtick was bite the head off a live chicken; that was attention-getting but not terribly witty.

But that was just the side show, not really what we came to see, what happened in the Big Top!

General Giap... well, I guess he belongs in the Big Top, since he was one hell of a military man. Maybe he was not so hot when it came to humanitarian values, but then we ourselves might come up a bit lacking there when it comes to the Vietnam War, what with My Lai and all. (There's not much point in relativizing atrocities, although it's tempting to try.)

Jane seems to want to play some combination of the bearded lady, the contortionist, and the geek; I couldn't possibly say for certain what that strange trip of his/hers is about. But, anyway, it's just someone for the sideshow, nothing for the Big Top. So, Hurry, hurry! Right this way, for the main attraction!

[hanoijane]

How about: 'Stop playing hard to get'?

Chuks, honey (I feel I can call you 'honey'; we're past the stage where we care what the others think) what you flown?

As in 'flown in real life', not 'flown in your mind's eye' or 'flown in a computer game'.

[chuks]

Ask SASless. He can tell you.

As to that other thing, using any terms of endearment... You should ask my wife for permission to do that, but you better brush up on your German first, and stand well back. She might turn you into a grease spot.

[hanoijane]

Lonewolf 50: (where do these names come from?)

The polite term for your chums is Việt Kiều - if you pronounce it Viet Q you'll be near enough. However, they're rarely called that inside VN. I'll spare you the details of what they are called.

I'm sure they do love life in the land of the free and the home of the brave. Personally, I hope they remain there.

Chuks:

I'm asking you. And of course I'll take your word for it. What would be the point in lying? This is only fun if you tell the truth.

The reason I ask is because you and West-thingy remind me of the Americans I meet, therefore it would be nice to understand a little of your background, 'cos I think I already get your sense of humour :-)

Anyway, I can't ask SAS. He thinks I'm a beastly Communist. Please don't tell him the truth. He lives in a world populated entirely by stereotypes. Best leave him there in peace, reliving the battle of An Lộc for the 13,457th time.

Go get 'em, 1st Airborne!!!!

[Brian Abraham]

My brother had his marble drawn for the draft, but was rejected on medical grounds due to breaking his leg in a motorcycle accident, and being left with what the medical profession had told him was a permanent limp. Not to be outdone, he spent 18 months making a monthly 500 mile bus trip to receive specialist physiotherapy treatment. The Army accepted him, and following basic training he volunteered for infantry, in order to be at the sharp end.

A few months prior to the end of his in country tour he lost his life in a firefight with elements of D445.

HJ, I invite you to post something that I might copy and hang on the wall in his memory. Something in your usual style, irreverent, ridiculing, and offensive.

PS: Wholigan, please let the boy have his head in this instance, I'm a big boy.

[hanoijane]

Brian:

Happy to do so. In my normal style.

Your brother died in a foreign land fighting for something he felt to be right.

I think he was wrong. But in saying that, I don't intend to diminish his personal courage or the pride in which you clearly, and rightly, hold his memory.

He's been denied the opportunity to grow old, to debate the issues, to visit the country and to talk to the people. If you feel angry about that - and I certainly would were he my brother - then I would direct my anger at those who sent him there, those who told him it was necessary. It wasn't.

Every year we pay respects to the 'Wandering Souls'. Those who died violently, or far from home, or who have yet to pass onto the next stage of existence. Without a doubt, your brothers soul will have been prayed for by the very people he fought.

So if you'd like to copy and paste something on your wall, copy this; a Vietnamese saying, in English, for your brother;

Life is a temporary stop, death the journey home.

Now, let him rest.

[Lonewolf_50]

Lonewolf 50: (where do these names come from?)
There are multiple threads on these forums where people explain where their nicknames come from. The Search Function is your friend.
The polite term for your chums is Việt Kiều - if you pronounce it Viet Q you'll be near enough. However, they're rarely called that inside VN. I'll spare you the details of what they are called.
I'm sure they'll be happy to call you a **** right back.
Over here, these folks have the freedom to be whomever they want to be. The Viet Namese diaspora I've met are good people. They work hard and appreciate the freedom to practice their religion, or to practice no religion, without the "by your leave" of the State, nor the interference of the Minions of Mao who infected your land like a cancer.
Getting the Americans to leave Viet Nam in '75 hardly cleared out the foreign influence.

Me, I'm glad that the US and Viet Nam are warming up to one another after that nasty war. In time, wounds can heal when one's heart is in it. It helps when we have a common interest, which includes rivalry/suspicion of VN's neighbor to the north.
I'm sure they do love life in the land of the free and the home of the brave. Personally, I hope they remain there.
The depressing lack of appreciation for freedom demonstrated by those who rolled South is well recorded in bloody-handed history.
One hopes that in time that can be corrected from within.

[hanoijane]

Lonewolf:

The Search Function is your friend.

But I was asking you. Are you not my friend?

Over here, these folks have the freedom to be whomever they want to be.

Yes. Sure. Pop along and visit the Vietnamese community back of Market in SF. Ask them how they feel about American freedoms. If you get out alive you can tell me.

...the interference of the Minions of Mao who infected your land like a cancer.

I'm not going to argue with that observation. We have a long history with the Chinese. None of it good.

It helps when we have a common interest

We don't. Do you take us for fools? You want us as a buffer state against the Chinese. Somewhere you can fight a proxy war, should the need arise.

Sure, we'll talk. Go through the motions of friendship. But we remember how you deserted our southern brothers.

You seem to have the regrettable habit of bailing on your friends. One could even say, 'Of running away'. You're still doing it.

I think that will always be in the forefront of our minds when dealing with Americans.

[Lonewolf_50]

Lonewolf:

The Search Function is your friend. But I was asking you. Are you not my friend?
By your own words and attitude, apparently not. See below.
Over here, these folks have the freedom to be whomever they want to be.
Yes. Sure. Pop along and visit the Vietnamese community back of Market in SF. Ask them how they feel about American freedoms. If you get out alive you can tell me.
Funny, my cousin used to hang out in that hood. He's still alive and well, only moved to Oakland recently (job issue, not the hood being dangerous). I wonder if their attitude is informed by their choosing to stay in Californistan. :p Big cities can be rough on everyone, my cousin included. Navy Vet, and not what one would call rich. Closer to "just getting by day to day."

EDIT: If these folks in that hood don't like their freedoms, they are free to ******* leave. That too is a freedom we enjoy over here.
It helps when we have a common interest We don't.
I see that you can look no further than the end of you nose. How disappointing. That interest is shared with some of your local neighbors as well.
Do you take us for fools? You want us as a buffer state against the Chinese. Somewhere you can fight a proxy war, should the need arise.
No, I most certainly don't take the Viet Namese for fools.
NO, you aren't even close with your assessment.
Sure, we'll talk. Go through the motions of friendship. But we remember how you deserted our southern brothers.
If you dwell in the past, you may poison your future.

About 20 years ago, President Clinton tried to reach out with a hand, not a fist. Despite a lot of pushback within our own country against that, Senator McCain whom you chose to trash with your OP/spin regurgitation, was on side with President Clinton with "we need to heal our poisoned relationship."
It wasn't all realpolitik (though I am sure there was an element of that). Some of it was a genuine human interest in having a better relationship. Clinton also tried to warm things up with Iran. He made, at best, modest progress, which has since been lost. Oh well, we can try again, and try to be patient.
You seem to have the regrettable habit of bailing on your friends. One could even say, 'Of running away'. You're still doing it.
What "friends" are you referring to?
I think that will always be in the forefront of our minds when dealing with Americans.
As I said above, you can choose to poison your future with your past.

Your call.

[hanoijane]

I'm bored now. And my mommy says I have to stop playing on this computer and talking with strange men. So I'm going to have my chocolate milk and get tucked into bed.

If you're around tomorrow you can ask my mommy if I'm allowed out to play. If the man with the keys agrees, they'll unlock the chains and I can type... oh... MILLIONS of words!

Night night, God bless all.

HJ.

[thunderbird7]

The psychology of this whole thread sums up the conduct of the whole Vietnam 'experience.'

Nobody can let go and draw a line.

[chippymick]

Hi Hanoi Jane

I think that McCain’s youthful misdemeanour’s while unfortunate are at least well known. I guess it comes from the transparency required to have a tilt at the leadership of one of the world’s greatest democracies.

I would like to see a serious assessment of Giap’s legacy in the same way; and with the same serious scrutiny that McCain was subjected to, perhaps you are the perfect person to ask.

Can you explain why Ho Chi Minh apologised to Ngo Dinh Diem for the death of his brother Ngo Dinh Khoi? Can you explain why he was killed, the manner of the execution and Giap’s culpability in the matter?

Can you explain why the French lost 2,000 KIA at the battle of Dien Bien Phu, but the death toll of the Prisoners of war (http://www.dienbienphu.org/english/html/captivite/captivity.htm) that they took in the months afterward were four times that number? 8,000 French and Vietnamese POW’s died while in the care of General Giap in just a few short months. General Homma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masaharu_Homma) was executed by firing squad in 1946 for the Bataan Death march. Can you try and explain the similarity or difference between the war crimes of Generals Homma and Giap?

Can you explain General Giap’s role in the ‘Land reform measures’ of 1955-56 in which roving tribunals were sent to villages and hamlets with a quota of landlords and rich peasants to kill that resulted in the deaths of 283,000 (http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP6.HTM) of your countrymen in that time period. I’m particularly interested in your explanation of Giap’s decision to send the 325th Division to quell the Quynh Luu (http://books.google.com.au/books?id=2ONOHIXGnrEC&pg=PA42&lpg=PA42&dq=Quynh+Luu+revolt&source=bl&ots=YZQKNRocWk&sig=PbHhrIcLBzX2LJQ85Y6nVZB6TOo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GT1eUu3NGISwiQe0jICIDg&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Quynh%20Luu%20revolt&f=false) revolt in November of 1956. I’d specifically like to know why Giap chose to use the 325th Division which was raised from the same province Nghe Anh? Why was it do you think that this was the last instance that Giap actually had troops under his command?

Can you explain the events of the 1959 plenum (http://books.google.com.au/books?id=lbwObDP_hJ0C&pg=PA45&lpg=PA45&dq=giap+1959+plenum&source=bl&ots=fiwBbSl7Y3&sig=u_aJWySfOFRCrtp9l_PZGqY5OrQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yD1eUu_6JOSyiAfo6oDIDQ&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=giap%201959%20plenum&f=false)when the politburo was split between those who wished to ‘develop the north’ and those that favoured ‘revolution in the South’ which faction did Giap belong to? Did he in fact seek the wider war that he seems to get so much credit for winning?

Can you explain the factional split regarding the Tet offensive of 1968? Was Giap in favour of the offensive – if not why not? Why did Giap choose a defacto exile in Hungar (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/23006fb8-2cf8-11e3-a0ac-00144feab7de.html#axzz2hrofprUG)y before the offensive commenced? That seems like remarkably unusual behaviour for someone who is given such credit for a magnificent victory, at least in the Western press.

Can you explain why Giap is considered a military genius? Can you point to any specific innovation, or marvellous tactical or strategic success he enjoyed? This point confuses me because I often see claims for his military genius, but no specific example is ever provided. It is quite perplexing really.

Thanks for helping me out.

Regards



Mick

[hanoijane]

Thunderbirds-are-go:

A stunningly accurate observation. I feel this should be my final post on this topic.

(Sighs of relief resound throughout the Internet...)

[chippymick]

Greatest cop out in the short history of the internet.

I’ve some easier questions if you prefer.

Post 1975, how many members of the victorious ‘National Liberation Front’ were given ministerial positions in the unified government?

You would expect that Uncle Ho’s right hand man and victorious General Giap would hold an exceptionally senior cabinet position in the newly unified government. What position did he actually hold?

The actual architect of the 1968 Tet offensive General Tran Van Tra was extremely critical of its conduct and the interference and meddling he received from Hanoi. He wrote of this experience in his 1982 memoirs. What happened to him?

Any time you are ready.

Cheers

Mick.

[melmothtw]

Enough already Chippymick. Like HJ, most of us bored of this a while back...

[Roland Pulfrew]

melmothtw: most of us bored of this a while back

Bored in less than 24 hours?!!!?

melmothtw: my chuckling at your comments

I was beginning to think that HJ was the latest incarnation of some of the wind-up merchants/trolls that have frequented this site in the past. There are a few things that just don't add up......:suspect:

[chippymick]

I don’t agree. At all.

This week another centurnarian war criminal died. Erich Priebke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Priebke) popped his clogs and got a fraction of the column inches and internet debate devoted to Giap.

Even though the column inches to victim ratio were inversely proportional.

While Priebke’s victims numbered 335 and Giap’s numbered about 300,000 Priebke was universally condemned while Giap was lionised.

This is wrong.

Not once have I seen in recent obituaries of Giap the treatment of the Dien Bien Phu prisoners addressed or the land reform democide. That is the double. War Crimes plus crimes against humanity.

Let the man answer the questions.

If he can.

[500N]

Chippy

In answer to your question, how many on the winning side
get charged with war crimes ?

Very few or None.

He was on the "winning" side.

[hanoijane]

Angry Michael:

And you're trying to prove what, precisely?

Hold any opinion you choose. Based on your reading, personal contacts and life experiences, it's probably the correct stance for you.

I have different opinions, because my reading, personal contacts and life experiences differ from yours. It's the correct stance for me.

My mission here (should you choose to accept it, Jim...) is not to educate, inform or change anyones world view. It's simply to call things as I see them. If you don't like this, don't read my posts. The forum has a perfectly sound ignore function - or so SAS tells me - so use it.

If you wish to engage in knockabout banter, feel free. But neither of us should delude ourselves that what we write here is going to change the perception of others, because it isn't.

Mick, If I had to take a wild guess I'd say you know rather too much of Vietnamese 'issues' to be a Westerner. You're real name isn't 'Nguyen Van Bailed-on-a-boat' is it?

Now come over here for a cuddle...

HJ.

[melmothtw]

Quote:
melmothtw: most of us bored of this a while back
Bored in less than 24 hours?!!!?

Quote:
melmothtw: my chuckling at your comments
I was beginning to think that HJ was the latest incarnation of some of the wind-up merchants/trolls that have frequented this site in the past. There are a few things that just don't add up......http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/cwm13.gif


I have a short attention span Roland, what can I say?

To be honest, it was less boredom that prompted me to ask chippymike to wind things up, and more an uneasy feeling I was getting 'watching' all and sundry getting rings run round them by HJ. It started out funny, but now it all just seems a little bit sad.

[chippymick]

HJ

Last I looked a forum was a place of debate.

I’ve looked at your original premise and subsequent arguments and found them wanting.

It isn’t a question of life experience or personal opinion. It is a question of fact. My questions, that you choose not to answer, go directly to matters of fact.

Of course they were all ‘barristers questions’ That is, questions I already knew the answer to and ones designed to be impossible for you to answer without crippling your original premise.

I’m not seeking to change your view on anything. I’m merely seeking, for the benefit of other forum members, to expose the paucity of your grasp of the issue at hand.

Perhaps instead of resorting to advice on the ignore function, injecting lame and irrelevant popular culture references and inviting people for cuddles as a means of deflection, you could perhaps address the issue that you started.

I’ve asked you a number of questions - there has to be some low hanging fruit among them somewhere. How about you have a go at answering just one?

Best regards

Mick

[hanoijane]

Golly, you're a persistent little bugger, aren't you?

I’ve looked at your original premise and subsequent arguments and found them wanting.

Oh sh1t! Are you on the panel reviewing one of my papers?

Sorry, getting frivolous again. I can't help myself.


My questions, that you choose not to answer, go directly to matters of fact.

Yes they do, And yes, you already know the answers to your questions - well, most of them anyway. As do I.

I don't recall suggesting the Giap was renown for his humanitarian views, his compassion for those under his command, his concern for POW's, his kindly disposition towards those who opposed him or stood in his path of independence, etc. He was a soldier who made some hard decisions and accepted personal responsibility for those decisions. Had we lost he would certainly have been 'in difficulty' were he called before a War Crimes Tribunal.

It's also true he was marginalised by the party BEFORE the American War ended and occupied a largely figurehead position since late 1973.

Nevertheless, he will always remain - along with Ho Chi Minh - the father of an independent Viet Nam. For that, we forgive him everything. I don't expect you to.

Now please take your pseudo-research into a country and a people you will never understand and go away. I find you slightly tiresome.

Or...

...we could do the hug thing. Your choice.

[chippymick]

I admit surprise.

I wouldn’t have thought you would pick that one.

I thought you would have gone for Ngo Dinh Khoi.

Live and learn.

I also think that in the interests of accuracy you should amend your answer as to when Giap was marginalised from before the American war ended to before the American War started. Otherwise I’m happy.

For what it is worth I found your comment about whether my name was'Nguyen Van Bailed-on-a-boat' extremely offensive and churlish.

I am not Vietnamese, merely better informed on Vietnamese history and politics than you are.

Although I admit to having an immense amount of sympathy for those that did manage to brave the South China Sea the Thai pirates and rapists and escape the regime.

From that exodus we picked up Luke Nguyen, Caroline Tran, Natalie Tran and Anh Do. So thanks for that. It makes me giggle that, post Doi Moi, the current regime is so actively coaxing the entrepreneurial class that they taxed on the way to ‘bail on a boat’ back!

What was Marx referring to when he talked about ‘collapsing under it’s own internal contradictions’? Please remind me.

Best regards

Mick

[Roland Pulfrew]

'watching' all and sundry getting rings run round them by HJ

Or HJ being found wanting by all and sundry perhaps? I admit HJ is a great wind-up merchant, but running rings? I think not.

[melmothtw]

Quote:
'watching' all and sundry getting rings run round them by HJ
Or HJ being found wanting by all and sundry perhaps? I admit HJ is a great wind-up merchant, but running rings? I think not.


Well, as the psychologist Stephen Covey put it: “Two people can see the same thing, disagree, and yet both be right. It's not logical; it's psychological.”

[hanoijane]

I am not Vietnamese, merely better informed on Vietnamese history and politics than you are.

Really? My Masters was in Vietnamese political history post 1900, my Doctorate examined the political infrastructure required to support Doi Moi. All post-flying my little Mig with a skill and precision that would make you weep.

Does that sound like boasting? It does, doesn't it? Please forgive me. It's not often I take the opportunity to fluff up my feathers.

What was Marx referring to when he talked about ‘collapsing under it’s own internal contradictions’?

Marx was a very silly boy. And quite irrelevant in this day and age.

Though I do take your point about VN starting to wobble. It worries me. Economically we're doing OK. Just. Socially, there are uncomfortable undercurrents. But that's what developing countries do, right? They develop.

I'm spending quite a lot of time in Taiwan at the mo', 'cos they have applied an interesting socio-economic model which has served them well. There's also a substantial Vietnamese community in TW. Sure, we'd like their help, their energy and their skillsets. Is it wrong to admit this?

Now, if you'd like to discuss trends in social and economic development in SE Asia I'd be happy to listen to your thoughts. But please, look forwards not backwards, huh?

[chippymick]

Jesus wept!

I’ve just seen somebody on the wrong end of an argument, (he started) after being flogged like a rented mule ultimately resorting to making an appeal to a higher authority.

Get this!

IT WAS HIMSELF!

Go and give your head a wobble son.

God bless the internet.

Goodnight.

[hanoijane]

Who is this higher authority of which you speak?

Why is Baby Jesus crying?

What was HIMSELF?

And most importantly... Who owns the mule?



I love this forum. It's like a menagerie for all those on the outer edges of reality.

[500N]

"I love this forum. It's like a menagerie for all those on the outer edges of reality."

Starting with your opening post which 2 or 3 of us refuted one part but you have still not acknowledged is correct.

[hanoijane]

500:

Are you referring to post 45 in the merged thread? If so, may I remind you of what *I* wrote?

With Giap being interred today, I though you might like this perspective from an American In Viet Nam.

By Calvin Godfrey for Thanh Nien News:

Quite why you would expect me to apologise for the content of an article clearly identified as being by another author and copied from a Vietnamese on-line journal I have no idea.

However, I suspect you're asking - in your own clumsy way - for an acknowledgement that some of Calvins article was nonsense.

Yes it was. Happy?

Now comes the difficult bit... ask yourself why I chose to post it, knowing it contained not only factual inaccuracies but also failed to focus on the subject of the obituary.

[Lonewolf_50]

You're real name isn't 'Nguyen Van Bailed-on-a-boat' is it?
Was the personal attack necessary?

chippymick, in re General Giap's stature:
A question was asked about his military genius. (I use the term per Clausewitz: a measure of talent in a given field). Like George Washington, one of General Giap's traits that led to success was persistence in the face of both a powerful adversary and the usual firction / difficulty in waging war. Washington wasn't a military genius, but he was a hell of a leader when a leader was needed. You could argue the same for General Giap. Viet Nam needed a war leader in the 50's, 60's, and 70's as that nation tried to establish its place in a post-colonial world: mission accomplished. If they put him out to pasture afterwards, how different is that from MacArthur or Patton?

Mick, I appreciate your points on overall body of work, in particular the abuses of the POWs and use of an army for internal control. The latter was common the third world then, and still is today. Westerners are exceptions to that behavior pattern.

Is General Giap to be condemned? Doesn't that depend?

We Americans generally forgive Washington his slave owning, as he was a man of his time. He sacrificed of himself and his family mightily (and figured out who his backers were, and who tried to stab him in the back at the Contintental Congress ... ) during a long and often hopeless-seeming war against a major world power.

In similar fashion, General Giap knew who did or didn't back him politically. His persistence may have been more important than any genius or brilliance, given the nature of the war. As we Americans had French help versus the Brits, the Viet Minh and NVA had Russian and Chinese help.

Seems that General Giap had in common with many Asians of the 20th century an anti-European racist/racialist attitude. (Of course, that sword has two edges ... ) Imperial Japanese "Asia for Asians" propaganda, and the "Greater East Asia Co-prosperity Sphere" were as much anti-Western as Pro-Asian. Racialist sentiments were a fact of those times.

Does the general dislike for "round eyes" sustain in Viet Nam today, as it does to differing extents in Korea, Taiwan, and Japan. (I've lived in the two latter). Don't know. If you look at Viet Nam's history, a wariness regarding foreigners seems warranted, even without adapting Korean style xenophobia. From what HJ has presented, it seems that little has changed, all smiling faces presented to the outside world considered.

The original OP from 04 october was a report of 102 year old General Giap fading away, as Dugout Doug put it. A week later, on 11 Oct, HJ tossed a trolling line into the JP fishing hole: a political hit piece directed at John McCain by an American.

McCain, warts and all, took the trouble of trying to make peace with his former adversary. I'd have lunch with him before I'd offer a coffee to the cnut who wrote that article.

HJ would, I deem, be good "lunch and cocktails" company, if our paths ever crossed.
All post-flying my little Mig with a skill and precision that would make you weep.
The best pilots I ever met tended to be humble. ;)

[500N]

HJ

No, I was referring to the my comment that the Aussies were not defeated in the AO they operated, in fact the opposite, they passed word around to stay out of it
and someone else's comment about the NV D445 Bn being decimated to just a few people by the 70's.

[hanoijane]

The man who won't explain his name:

Was the personal attack necessary?

I don't know. You tell me. Ad hominems are thrown in my direction all the time here. You have to take the hit and smile.

HJ would, I deem, be good "lunch and cocktails" company, if our paths ever crossed.

Lord, that sounds dull. Couldn't we just grab something at Mos Burger and talk to Taiwanese girls instead?

The best pilots I ever met tended to be humble.

Tongue was in cheek. If my father wasn't who he was, I'd have been washed out at basic. I scared myself ****less. Regularly.



500:

Sorry, my mistake.

I'm not a military historian nor do I have detailed knowledge of unit operations during the American War.

FWIW, I too have heard tell of the desire to avoid contact with Australian troops. It could be apocryphal, but I'm happy to give you the benefit of the doubt.

As for D445, our version is here:

The Viet Cong D445 Battalion: Their Story (http://www.scribd.com/doc/62621973/The-Viet-Cong-D445-Battalion-Their-Story)

I'm sure you can point me to a version somewhere which differs. When you meet your god, you can ask him which was right.

[500N]

HJ

" I'm sure you can point me to a version somewhere which differs. When you meet your god, you can ask him which was right."

I don't need to meet god to know which is right.

Just read from Page 56 onwards in that link about Long Tan.

Now of course I wasn't there but a few glaring mistakes.

1. D Company did not have tanks or APC at the start, they came in at the end from a flank and "saved the day" so to speak. So the D445 history where it says that troops and tanks advanced into the ambush is BS.

2. Read the bit on page 59 about operations after Long Tan, 1st paragraph. It says "not only were they unable to achieve this but suffered heavy casualties".
Well, some large scale clashes did occur but the Aussies did not suffer large scale casualties. The stats reflect this.

3. They got one thing right further down the page.
"as we were continually on the defensive countering the enemy's sweeping operations"

They got one thing right. They clearly identified that Close fire support from the artillery was vital to the Australians.

Edit
BTW, It reads like a Communist propaganda machine book.

.

[Lonewolf_50]

The man who won't explain his name "LW50" takes fewer keystrokes. ;)
Lord, that sounds dull. Couldn't we just grab something at Mos Burger and talk to Taiwanese girls instead?
Hmmm. Depends upon where we might trip across one another ...
I scared myself ****less. Regularly.
Pilots have been known to do that since Wilbur and Orville began wearing brown trousers. :cool:

[dat581]

500N

The way the Australians fought the war begs the question of how would the war have turned out if the Americans had learned from and used the same tactics? The battle of attrition fought by the US played into the North Vietnamese hands as to the US each man lost was a tragedy but to North Vietnam they were just a number. How do you win a war of attrition against an enemy that doesn't care about their losses?

[500N]

Dat

I am no expert on Vietnam so can't really comment.

Were the tactics THAT different ?

Let's compare Ia Drang with Long Tan. Apart from the insertion of the US troops by Helo and everything was scaled up in numbers (both sides) and the US had aircraft in support, at the base level it was infantry troops fighting close quarters with one side fixed and one side attacking with the defensive side being supported well by Arty.

The result was the same, high casualties, both sides looked at it as a victory,
both sides learnt from it.

Now take the other Ia Drang valley battle at the next landing zone over,
A Battalion effectively massacred.

As for the rest of the war, not sure.

Aggressive offensive and defensive patrolling, which the Australians did in spades and kept the NVA on their toes all the time works in any war.

[West Coast]

Dat asks a good question about how do you win a war when the other side doesn't value life in the same way the west does?

You remove the handcuffs that bind you early. Had the fight been brought to the north in the way of unrestricted warfare, the outcome may have differed. The NV may not have placed a high value on the worth of an individual, they did on the infrastructure of the North as evidenced by the air defenses present.

However the civilians appointed above the military didn't have the stomach for that.

[Pontius Navigator]

You remove the handcuffs that bind you early.

. . . unrestricted warfare,

The NV '. . . a high value on . . . infrastructure.

There was an obvious reluctance for unrestricted warfare. Look at the time line.

WW2 was less than 30 years ago. It is now 40 years since.

PGMs were in their infancy and not available at all to SAC. The risk therefore was media collateral in civilian casualties and the risk of killing 'innocent' foreign advisors.

Eventually that risk was taken.

[SASless]

Ask SASless. He can tell you.

Chuks me ol' Mate.....I very early on decided that telling HJ anything was akin to convincing you of the reality re your craven use of my Bar Card and unlike you who I hold in some esteem (however slight), have assigned HJ a very obscure back row seat in the Peanut Gallery.

As I quite enjoy reading your missives here.....and the opposite being true for HJ's drivel.....I see absolutely no need to waste a second of my time even looking at a single post made by HJ.

So....I am not going to allow you to cause me to set out on a Fool's Errand.



500N,

The Americans and Aussies used the same basic tactics and equipment. The difference is in the size of the Aussie Area of Operations, where it was located, and the Enemy Order of Battle and Logistics issues the enemy had in supporting its troops.

US units were engaged with Main Force NVA Regulars, were confronted in many areas by NVA Artillery, Tanks, and other significant forces. The Ho Chi Minh trail supply routes, in general lay along the Laos-Cambodian border areas and afforded the North Vietnamese to provide effective logistical support to their forces deployed against US Forces in the Border areas.

The Aussie AO around Nui Dat were at the very end of the NVA supply line and thus they were not able to build large units and sustain them for operations.

Thus, the Australian forces had to deal with a lesser capable opposition as compared to the Large Enemy formations in places like the Ashau Valley, DMZ, and Cambodian Border areas west and north of Saigon.

It did not make the fighting any less dangerous.....just reduced the size and make-up of the forces engaged.

As was normal in the Vietnam War....the scale, scope, and intensity of one's experience varied with the Year, Season, Location, and within which unit one found himself.

My unit supported the Aussies.....doing the same missions with them we did with US Units and except for the Aussies being very organized and efficient in their planning for our Chinook missions.....comparable US units were anything but.....I found little difference in the capabilities.

The Aussies on average had better discipline in their conduct of operations....sound and light discipline being an example. They seemed to be more aggressive in their small unit patrolling.

We have to remember.....there were far fewer Australian units too. In the US units....right down to platoons within companies....some were better than others in their performance but that was primarily a function of the quality of their leadership which naturally varied with the NCO's and Officers assigned to the units.

Comparing Long Tan to Ia Drang and the subsequent ambush that was so disastrous is not an easy exercise.

The Aussies experienced an Advance to Contact fight where they encountered enemy units and then fought a pitched battle of survival against overwhelming odds and made excellent use of Artillery and had very little Air Support. The engaged unit had excellent leadership.

At Ia Drang, the Air Cav did an Air Assault well into enemy held territory where there were no ground units to support them. They then fought against overwhelming odds but had tremendous Artillery and Air Support. The Battalion Commander did an outstanding job of leading his men and controlling the fight.

The Ambushed Column marching overland to LZ Albany was physically exhausted after being engaged in combat at LZ X-Ray, did not use proper tactical measures except for the front and rear of the column, and was poorly led by the Battalion Commander who quickly lost control of the situation. As a result there was little effective Artillery and Air Support.

The danger of drawing generalities is that doing so does not effectively consider important differences in those situations.

[500N]

SaSless

Thanks. Excellent summary.

[SASless]

Upon Creighton Abrams taking over from Westmoreland.....the strategy became one of Logistics rather than Attrition. Abrams understood the real weakness in the NVA ability to conduct operations.

The NVA had to stage their supplies in advance of operations which is the complete reverse of standard convention warfare.

His method was to deprive the NVA of their pre-positioned supplies and armament so that the NVA forces could not conduct effective operations.

Our casualties decreased and the pace of enemy operations slowed as a result.

Had we been allowed to carry the war to the Sanctuaries in Cambodia and Laos, to close down the sea port in Cambodia, and sent our ground forces into North Vietnam we would have been able to have ended the war particularly right after TET of 1968 when the NVA/VC took such a horrible beating down South.

Sadly, our National Leadership were blind to the reality of what they were doing wrong.....they were not only lying to the American People, the Troops in Combat, but fatally....to themselves.

[AtomKraft]

HJ.

I address this comment to you, and not as a slight to the yanks.

Giap was a great General, not because of who he defeated, but of those he defended.

In any Country, a soldier who repels invaders has done his job.

In the case of Giap, and Vietnam- we can only wonder at how he did, what must have seemed to a poorly trained and uncivilised peasant army, the impossible.

But, lets go back to basics.

Let us not confuse Strategy and Tactics, because although US tactics were well fought, US Strategy was so poor.

In fact. What was the US strategy in Viet Nam?

Back to Giap.

Again, Strategically, why did the French fancy that after all the giant political and social changes, including- basically the end of Empires that came after WW2, they could just waltz back into Cochin China?

Big boo-boo.

The World had changed, and it was clear to all who had eyes to see.
Perhaps le Frog was blinded by the utter humiliation of the French Piss-poor performance in WW2?

Anyway, the French got their asses handed to them in Dien Bien Phu.
But let no one say they did not put up one hell of a fight.

Giap, prevailed. And frankly, for a legacy, that would have done nicely.

The US, ignoring every single thing that the Frogs told them, went down to a similar defeat.

Now.

Had Giap, been a UK General.

He would have been a hero of giant proportion.

He wasn't, of course, but he was a living legend and in had he lived in any other Country, and fought, I think he would have done well.

After Vietnam, the lessons were there for all to see:
When fighting in a foreign Country- the people are the prize- avoid killing the buggers!

Again, the US would not listen, and would not see.
Thus, the giant defeats in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Those who do not learn the lessons of history, are bound to go on their arses time after time. See US recent history for many examples.

Giap:

The Generals' General.

Kicked the US and the French right up the arse and out of Vietnam. With nothing.

Suck it up.

[West Coast]

A nascent democracy in Iraq with SH visiting with his 19 virgins. Not quite as you describe it Atom.

Not perfect, not a democracy in the sense of what you enjoy in County Claire (my assumption) but a start.

[chippymick]

For someone with such firm opinions I’m interested in how those opinions were informed?

They certainly have little connection to historical reality, as HJ would tell you.

If he was honest.

Giap was not a great General.

In the French campaign of 1948, the Viet Minh were reduced to a rump and both HCM and Giap were lucky to escape with their lives.
He was given a lifeline only after the ascendancy of the Communist Chinese who were victorious in the Chinese civil war in 1949.
Giap’s conduct of the 1950 Red River campaign was disastrous. Giap himself was lucky not to find himself the scapegoat for that disaster. It fell instead to Nguyen Binh, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nguy%E1%BB%85n_B%C3%ACnh)who was set up to be killed in a French ambush by Giap.


The uncivilised peasant army that Giap took to victory at DBP was anything but poorly trained. It wasn’t until the Chinese communists turned up on the northern border that Giap had the chance to train and raise divisions. His 308th division for example was the equal in terms of equipment and training to any Japanese Division that saw service in WW2.

Giap disgraced himself in the Land Reform measures of 1955-56 and his suppression of the Quynh Luu revolt that was a reaction to them in November 1956. After this Giap while retained as a PAVN ‘figurehead’, because of the propaganda importance of his DBP victory, played no further part in the decision making that led to the ‘American War’.

Let me reiterate this important fact.

General Giap had nothing to do with the decision to go to war against the south; in fact he was against it. Giap had nothing to do with the strategy or tactics used against the US from 1959 until the US withdrawal in 1972. Nothing. He had nothing at all to do with the final campaign against the ARVN that resulted in the fall of Saigon in 1975.

The French made every effort from 1945 onwards to create viable independent Indochinese States. The French plan was the same as that adopted by the British in both India and Malaya, that is, an evolutionary process rather than a revolutionary one.

Giap, HCM and Le Duan were committed to a revolutionary process and violence.

If HCM and Giap had done nothing other than simply wait, do you honestly believe that Indochina would still be a French Colony in 2013? In the absence of the failed Viet experiment in Communism Vietnam would certainly have been independent, unified by the time of the Doi Moi reforms of 1986. The choice of war was a communist initiative and one that unnecessarily caused millions of deaths and set back Vietnamese economic development by three generations. Let the blame fall where it belongs.

The Vietnamese did not defeat the US. The US had been gone 3 years prior to the fall of Saigon in 1975. The defeat of 1975 belongs entirely to the ARVN.

Anything of any consequence that occurred in Vietnam happened before 1965 when the Marines waded ashore at Danang or after 1972 when they had packed up and left. They just don't make movies about it and the books don't sell as well.

Had Giap been a UK General he probably would not have the blood of 300,000 of his countrymen on his hands. Vietnamese that he had killed to meet land reform quotas. The British just don’t do that sort of thing anymore.

Had Giap been a UK general he would have been rightly condemned for his treatment of the POW’s he took at DBP. During the battle he managed to kill 2,000 French and Vietnamese defenders. In the immediate aftermath of the battle, prisoners in Giap’s care died in huge numbers. 8,000, more than four times the battle casualties, died in the camps or on death marches. Giap was never tried as a war criminal because he was on the winning side.

If that makes him a General’s general you need to recalibrate your moral compass.

I always enjoy the combination of ill-informed opinion and knee jerk anti-Americanism. Heaven knows, there just isn’t enough of that on the internet.

[hanoijane]

AtomKraft:

'People are the prize'. Nice line. And how few in the American military (and now, it would seem, the British too) appear to realise the truth of those simple words.

As for the rest of your post... hmmmm. A little one-sided and simplistic perhaps, but basically correct. Giap did have his less-than-attractive side though :-)


West Coast:

I originally had you down as quite smart. May I downgrade that to 'barely functioning'?

ANYONE who seeks to pretend that the Iraq 'adventure' was - and remains - anything other than unmitigated disaster for the people of that god-forsaken land is a blinkered fool.

No wonder your country keeps repeating its mistakes. Even those able to write are unable to write sense.


Michael:

And I have always enjoyed the combination of ill-informed opinion and an intellect bright enough to see the wood but regrettably not quite bright enough to see the trees.

Giap has been assessed by others better placed than you or I to determine his worth as a soldier and a revolutionary leader. The consensus seems to be that, yes, he certainly doesn't possess a blemish free record, but that he was also the right person in the right place to take Viet Nam forwards into a future of... well... what, exactly, we're still trying to discover.

To attempt to argue that in the '50's the Vietnamese should have sat around patiently as colonialism was dying and independence just around the corner is as spurious and ill-conceived an argument as suggesting that USA should have invested in running shoe production in the 60's instead of military hardware because the Soviet Union was going to implode by the end of the century.

Giap had a far greater influence than you suggest on political and military strategy of Vietnam in the 60's and 70's. The party in Viet Nam is not renown for keeping mere figureheads within its orbit. Cross the party and you're out, or worse. If Giap was there, he was contributing something other than the remnants of his glorious past at DBP. What, precisely, he was contributing will be a matter for historians to determine through personal interview with party members and access to archives, not amateur historians with access to Wiki in Australia.

Can you even read Vietnamese? It's a rhetorical question.

[chippymick]

Thanks for your contribution HJ

People certainly were the prize. I’ll give you that.

Except of course the ones that were killed by quota between 1955 and 1956. A democide that Giap presided over. Those people were not prized.

Link that mass killing with the minor league killing of non communist anti Imperial opposition in the period 1945-46. And you get a picture of selective and general murder that was the hallmark of communism in Vietnam. Those people were not prized.

Again part of Giap’s legacy.

You still haven’t provided an explanation as to why Ngo Dien Khoi, the then leading non communist anti imperialist was buried to his neck and beaten to death with the shovels that dug the pit? I thought that you would share that? The non communist opposition to French colonialism certainly were not prized.

The people certainly were the prize when the French in the wake of the defeat of DBP decided that the cause of non communist post colonial succession was not worth the candle and bailed. Resulting in an exodus to the South that measured in the millions. Why is it do you did so many vote with their feet?

Post 1975 there was another mass exodus. Apart from mocking the expatriate entrepreneurial class that was rejected pre Doi Moi, you haven’t adequately explained why the current regime is spending so much time, treasure and shoe leather in wooing the investment of these people back. Apparently you’re the 'go to' Doi Moi man; please do tell?

Those people were not prized in 1975, but now they are!

If Giap had, as you suggest, any influence in military matters in the 1960’s and 1970’s perhaps you would be kind enough to give an example? One will do.

Giap presided over a deliberate campaign to eliminate all non communist anti French opposition from 1945 to 1946.

Giap was a war criminal. General Homma was shot in 1946 for less than Giap was responsible for in terms of his treatment of French and Vietnamese Prisoners of War in 1954.

Giap committed crimes against humanity against his own people in the Land reform campaign of 1955-56.

There is no escaping these historical facts.

[hanoijane]

Michael:

I must confess that I stand in awe of your understanding of Vietnamese history and your incisive - nay, completely unique - view of post-1945 events in our land.

I think you have much to teach us. We clearly have much to learn from you. Perhaps you would consider expanding your posts into a book? I'd be happy to translate it into Vietnamese in order that the citizens of the Socialist Republic could become better acquainted with our history.

Failing this, would you consider accepting an invitation to lecture at the next meeting of our economic and social development committees? I feel your ability to understand the aspirations of our citizens would provide the clear guidance we so sadly lack.

In hope more than expectation...


HJ.

[chippymick]

Sure.

Bring it on. I'll have my people talk to your people etc...

But I must warn you in advance, although I have an exceptionally large penis, I've never flown a MIG.

That could possibly be a game changer as far as the invite is concerned.

Up to you.

In the mean time have a crack at disputing any of the specifics I've posted, rather than generally disagreeing and deflecting.

Again up to you.

[hanoijane]

Damn! Smarter that me AND with a bigger penis?

***walks off in shame...***

[Pontius Navigator]

Again, Strategically, why did the French fancy that after all the giant political and social changes, including- basically the end of Empires that came after WW2, they could just waltz back into Cochin China?

The French were not alone. All European colonial powers sought to return to the status quo anti-bellum.

The Dutch were the first to pull out of Asia leaving Britain to handle affairs in Sumatra and Java. The British and the French both had to contend with 'communist' or perhaps more properly 'nationalist' uprisings not just in Malaya and Indo-China but India and to some extent China. I accept that China was not a colony but the communists changed the political, economic, and social status.

[AtomKraft]

My views are my own Chippy. And for the record, I'm no lefty.

****, is ****. You don't need to be a genius to see it and know it for what it is.

For the benefit of those who specialise in missing the point, here it is:

The US had no business in Vietnam. None.

They slaughtered the people, who they held in clear contempt.
They poisoned the gene pool and defoliated and poisoned the land.

You should hang your heads in shame.

Giap, is a hero in my view, not because he was perfect, but because he is a recognisable element of the force that kicked the US's ass.

Which is exactly what it needed.

The whole plot was a fukcing disgrace.

[AtomKraft]

And another thing.

It's MiG.

Not mig or MIG.

FS!

[chippymick]

I'm not looking for any particular concession but I think you'll find that rather than 'Smarter that me' I think you will find it is 'Smarter than me'.

Now that I have cleared that up.

Any particular historical points you want to dispute?

That's the important thing.

[Toadstool]

Chippy, unfortunately when you start to nit pick spelling mistakes such as but I think you'll find that rather than 'Smarter that me' I think you will find it is 'Smarter than me'. then you lead yourself wide open to people asking what do you mean by Why is it do you did so many vote with their feet? when I'm sure you meant Why is it do you think so many .... Clearly with your arguments you are above this.

[hanoijane]

You're correct. It should be 'than'. I was flustered by the fact that you'd noticed my tiny penis.

No, Michael, the past really doesn't interest me, except as an aide memoire of mistakes not to be repeated. But please, continue to obsess. I know you're enjoying yourself. :-)

[chippymick]

Many thanks Toadstool.

You are of course correct, on all accounts. My bad.

Best regards

Mick

[chuks]

I always thought it was, yes, "MiG."

I must introduce Jane to an old friend I met here, one claiming lots of experience as a "Leer Jet" pilot; I bet they would find a lot in common to talk about, doing that "oneupmanship" thing and all....

That SASless! What a kidder! Well, if he wants to keep schtum about our neck-and-neck competition to be the world's greatest pilot, so be it.

I think he has a point about trying to tell our Jane anything, even if he did come across as a bit grumpy there. Well, perhaps it would work better, trying that in Vietnamese, but that's beyond our ken. If Jane's language skills stretch that far, I can say, "Gruesse von Goetz!" but that's about as far as it goes.

[hanoijane]

Chuks:

Why do you persist in baiting me? It's so unfair. You're an adult and I'm a snotty and ill-tempered eighteen year old unemployed youth living a life of complete fantasy on the Internet.

I jolly well would like to speak with your Leer Jet chum. He could tell me what it's like to reach Mach 1.4 in the climb and I could explain how I spanked the entire PLAAF simply by conducting a dazzling display of aerobatics over Nanning.

You really are a funny little dumpling :-)

[AtomKraft]

I've been to Da Nang. (and my kids).

There's no evidence of the USMC, nowadays and the beach is a pure white strand of unadulterated beauty.

The most beautiful place I've ever been to.

[AtomKraft]

Pontious.

So what?

The French were wrong, and so were the others. Is that your point?

[hanoijane]

Atom:

Ah, Da Nang, fun place. Used to fly out of there at silly o'clock, lord knows why they made us get up so early. No-one enjoyed it.

China Beach (though we can't call it that any more) is not as clean as it looks. Parts of the airfield and old helicopter base next to the coast road to Hoi An are badly contaminated with the residue of Agent Orange. It seeps in all directions. Oddly enough the new resorts are built near this contaminated area. Try not to think about it as you sip your cocktail and frolic in the surf.

Da Nang is a great place to get out of. Hire a mo'bike and drive to Monkey mountain or Marble mountain, or if you're feeling adventurous head up the Hai Van Pass to check out the spectacular view and the old French blockhouses at the top of the pass. If you want to learn more about Vietnamese history than my friend Michael, go to My Son. The Cham architecture is spectacular and the setting ultra-spooky. The 1A is super-dangerous but you aren't on it for long and road you turn off to head to My Son is rough but do-able. Just remember to leave My Son early enough to ensure you're not on the 1A when it gets dark. You will be killed by a 14 year old driving a giant orange truck with no lights or working brakes if you are.

If you want a resort recommendation in Da Nang PM me. I have a chum who owns a very cute resort about 3k outside the city centre on the road to Hoi An. It might just be No 1 on Tripadvisor for hotels in Da Nang...

BTW, Hoi An is the pits. Avoid it at all costs. Though there is a very good restaurant - Minh Hien Quan Chay - worth trying plus you HAVE to go see Madame Khanh for the Banh Mi. OK, so I guess you do have to go to Hoi An :-)

And that, my friends, is your pocket guide to Da Nang.

Now, did I tell you about the time I chased a U2 up to 85,000 feet in my little MIG/mIG/Mig/MiG, passing a Leer jet on the way? No? Then draw up a chair...

[AtomKraft]

HJ

Since we're chatting- we stayed at 'Sandy Beach'... I know, and I'm sorry for being so gay as to stay in such a place.

One morning at about 0500, with a giant smashing roar, a VNAF MiG-21 absolutely blasted over our lodging.

I got up at 0500 every morning after that, and stood in the surf with my camera, but no more MiGs.

As you'll know, the road goes through the old Marines base at Marble Mountain. One of the 'wonder arch' revetments is cut to allow the road to go through. I think it follows the runway.

My daughters loved Hoi An. They chose things from the Next directory and the girls in Hoi An made the stuff and delivered it next day.

The people in Viet Nam were what did it for us.

Gentle, kind and lovely.

[Janda]

Atomkraft I totally agree with you regarding the Vietnamese people. I have had two holidays there and hardly a problem. Considering their history they are lovely people and hold no malice to Westerners. I also love Hoi An and outside of Saigon and Hanoi it is the one place I have been to on both trips. Unfortunately, in a few years I am sure it will go the same way as all discovered holiday destinations.

[hanoijane]

It could have been worse, you could have stayed at the Nam Hai. Overpriced pretentious rubbish!

The 05:00 guy is playing the 'How low can you go' game along China beach, between Monkey mountain and Hoi An. I was speaking about it in another thread. It's been happening for years.

We have a guy just outside Hoi An who takes pics then sends them to us for rating. There is even an annual award (unofficially). I'm surprised you didn't see more low flying, but the kids today lack our youthful exuberance.

I'm pleased that you enjoyed Viet Nam. It's far from perfect, but we are trying. We genuinely like Westerners (though god knows why, given our history) and have a real interest in talking with you, learning from you and sharing our culture and our cuisine. Food is very important to us, you got that, right?

I hope you return one day. If you do, and I'm around, it would be my pleasure to meet you and share with you a little of my country. I will look forward to our meeting.

You have my thanks for your kind words about my country and people. Please accept my sincere best wishes for your future.

HJ

[SASless]

Did you do the Eco Tour at Hoi An?

Wonderful experience!

[AtomKraft]

Ok, two examples follow.

1. I wanted to visit the Army museum in Da Nang. Enquired at the hotel reception.
Told by receptionist it was a 'no-no'.
Told him I was going anyway- please get me a taxi.

Receptionist repeated warning.

I insisted on going.

Finally he shrugged, I'll take you myself. Got on his motorbike, went there, he bribed the guard to let us in by giving him some cigs, and had a good look around.

On the way back, he sensed I was too hot. We stopped and a chap at the roadside crushed some sugar cane in a sort of mangle to produce a type of sweet and very cooling and nourishing drink.

All three of us drank. Me, Tran Doan, and the taxi driver- but they gave me the most because they chose to.

2. At Marble Mountain, we stopped in a tiny place for a coke.

We went on, and after a while I realised I must have left my quite expensive hat in the tiny restaurant.

As we left the Marble Mountain caves, we met a girl who had my hat. She must have waited for me for 1-2 hours.

'Is this your hat?' she said.

While I was there, I read that a chap had handed in someones wallet, with a huge sum, to the local police.

I kinda thought.......us right or these guys right?

Me and the family been around, but if you ask my kids.....Viet Nam every time.:ok:

(HJ, we stayed at the Palace in Saigon)

[hanoijane]

Uh? Eco trip????

Do you mean the trip around the farms about 2k outside of Hoi An with the rabid dogs who try to eat you as you drive by on your Honda Airblade?

You like some strange things, SAS. But then you are a Yankee...

[hanoijane]

How can you drink the sugar cane? Even I can't cope with that :-)

I'm VERY pleased to hear you were treated fairly. It doesn't always happen, especially in Sai Gon or Ha Noi.

As Janfa noted, things may well change. There's been a gradual realisation amongst the less well-off that the economic benefits of Doi Moi have not been distributed equitably, and I suspect this may change the perspective of some towards those they perceive as being 'wealthy tourists'.

But at the moment I'm quite proud of the way my people interact with our guests. Let's hope they continue to see the benefit in treating people fairly and with respect.

Who put you at the Palace? They need a good slapping!

If you ever return to VN, try to use 'Trails of Indochina' to book your trip. They're a Vietnamese company run by a good guy - John Nguyen - and they know the best places to stay and will give you fair rates. Usual disclaimers.

Hell, I guess it would be easier for me to book places for you. Just PM me if you decide to return!

[AtomKraft]

Another memory from our trip to Viet Nam was leaving the airport- at Tan Son Nat.

I could see about 5 miles down a dual carriageway, and the whole plot was completely covered by about one million motorbikes.

There were two main flows of the bikes, but alongside each 'correct' flow of bikes, was a large flow going against the current including riding on the pavement, against the traffic.

I though 'damn- I got my kids here'.

I think it was culture shock.

HJ

Thanks for your kind invitation. It would be my privilege to accept it.

I'm leaving the UK soon, for India- but I hope to re-visit Viet Nam.

As I stated earlier, I'm no communist, but having been to HCMC ( I prefer Saigon) and central Viet Nam, it would be great to see Ha Noi.

I will never forget seeing photographs of mutated people in the War Remnants museum in HCMC. And neither would anyone else.

I photographed the pictures, but would shy from showing it here.

[AtomKraft]

HJ

Treated fairly?
I was treated like an honoured guest, like a lost son- by people I had never met.
For example- I'm a plane spotter- (and a pilot!) I met a man called Kane Hoshi, and he took me all over Saigon on his m/c looking at aircraft.

I remember, one moment as we looked over the wall at TSN, an ancient women saw me and scurried into her house, emerging after a minute with a 10 year old.
She smiled and international sign language did the rest. She was showing the kid what an American looked like (I'm Scottish).

There were kind looks and the two fingered peace sign from many a pillion passenger.

It was truly a humbling experience, and I'm so glad that as Brits, our PM kept us out of a desperately ill-founded campaign

[hanoijane]

OK, WHEN you return we really have to get you on a bike and into the traffic. It's a complete giggle. Sure, it looks scary, but once you follow the basic principle of only worrying about what's directly in front of you, it all makes sense.

You never use your mirrors and you can change lane or direction whenever you choose, 'cos it's the responsibility of those behind you to avoid you. Of course, you're doing the same for those in front of you.

The random traffic flows aren't too bad either. Just forget the idea that it's wrong for people to be coming towards you in your lane. Move gently out of their way and smile. Works every time.

If you think the bikes are bad now about five years ago there were major drain replacement works in HCMC along the airport road you mention, and you spent most of you day driving on the pavements 'cos the roads were blocked. It was utter hell. I lived in Cuu Long just outside Tan Son Nhat at the time and the drive into town (about 5k) took one hour and left me a sweaty wreck.

Ha Noi is cool. Good aviation museum. B52 remains in the lake. The legendary turtle. HCM's resting place. Tons of stuff to see. Avoid the height of summer, it's horribly sticky. Different atmosphere from Sai Gon, much more formal and severe. Plus they speak strangely. I'm from Hue, so I think everyone outside of Hue speaks strangely.

Yes. Come. You'll have fun. Can't promise anything, but I may be able to get you up close and personal with a MIG/miG/Mig/MiG/whatever. Then we could send the pics to Michael, and he could tell us how many innocent capitalists it had beaten to death...

[AtomKraft]

In Hoi An, a woman was selling drinks.

It was a mix of pieces of gelatine, what looked like fish eggs and a liquid that looked like cold milky coffee.
I bought one and choked it down.

I had one for my big daughter, Lou- but she refused to drink it. So I drank some of hers.

The old women insisted on refilling both and I had to drink the lot.

Strangely refreshing....:ooh:

[AtomKraft]

Jane, our posts are crossing a bit, but your message is getting through.:ok:

Crossing the road in Saigon, a girl told us 'don't run- you'll get hit- walk into the traffic slowly, they'll avoid you'.

Was true.:)

Isn't the only rule 'don't crash into someone in front of you'?

Never been anywhere lik it, and loved it.

We were in a book shop, I think in Hoi An, my wife was reading and tears were on her cheeks.

She was reading about how a gentle people came under the guns of .......ach.

The character in the book was called 'second harvest'.

A gentle people, I thought.

[AtomKraft]

Met a girl called, well I cant spell it, but it sounded like 'Nya'

She said- 'ah Budda' ie, my fat belly.

If we ever meet, I'll tell you the story- she was (is) a lovely innocent, but wily, girl. Just lovely.

Sexy too!:ok:

[AtomKraft]

Saigon Palace.

Clearly a French building.

OK, so the roof leaks a bit- we never got wet.

I liked their advice. 'Dine in-its good value'

Boy, how true. Unlimited red wine, fantastic exotic fruit (what the heck is Dragon Fruit) and wall to wall yummie stuff.

I had sweet and sour chicken- but an entire chicken head was one of the chunks. I didn't actually eat it.

Was still great fun though.

[Janda]

Hanoi is a fabulous city. The old town is a maze of streets where you can easily get lost. And yes the food everywhere is fantastic. On our last trip we went to the area of Ninh Binh and hired a car and driver to take us around. For lunch on day one he stopped at a small hotel where we had a lunch of several different types of spring rolls. The second day he pulled up outside a building which looked awful. Did not really want to go in but again a great lunch of chicken and salads. Far to much. My wife and I travelled independently and made all our bookings direct. Our worst experience was on the awful night train between Hue and Ninh Binh which even in a sleeper went on and on for 12 hours. But when we reached Ninh Binh at 0530 waiting for us was the owner of the hotel where we were to stay. We hope to be back next year and HJ want to spend more time in Hoi An and rent a house for a couple of weeks.

[West Coast]

Jane

Being an optimist, I eagerly waded through the personal attack hoping to find a crafted counter argument. I'm no longer an optimist.

As uncertain as Iraq's democracy is, the self determination the average Iraqi enjoys exceeds that of the average Vietnamese citizen. Under no illusion it's perfect, but there's something liberating about voting.

Perhaps Vietnam is like countries in the ME that wouldn't operate well under a democracy.

Either way, the war was a long time ago. The here and now is interesting enough. I foresee the rise of China as driving Vietnam closer to the US. This having been seen in many venues already.

That must drive the old guard in your country to drink, consorting with the enemy as it were.

[hanoijane]

West Coast:

One of the most pointless activities known to man is attempting to argue with an American on the Internet. So, in respect of your thinly-disguised invitation to discuss Iraq or the political system in Viet Nam, may I simply reply;

"Yes, I'm sure that whatever you say, you're correct."

However, your observation regarding which way we'll jump as regards our New Best Friend is easier to dispute.

We don't like the Chinese. We're not chums with the Chinese. We'll probably have some little dust-ups with the Chinese in the South China Sea. But if it's a choice between a long term partnership with an old enemy, albeit one who has helped us when our backs have been against the wall in the past, and a partnership with a technology mastering and economically powerful but hugely unreliable friend in America, I know who we'll choose. And it won't be the country which stumbles into wars, loses them, and then scampers off home leaving what remains of those they'd promised to 'set free' to face the music.

Trust me, no-one wants a friend like that. We like winners.

[hanoijane]

Janda:

You certainly seem to get the best out of your visits. Travelling independently in VN is only for the brave (or the backpacker generation) but you can sure have a fun time doing things that way, plus you get closer to the people and culture.

Did you wander along Long Bien Bridge? You really need to use a mo'bike, then park at one of the pull-ins and go down the steps to the islands to appreciate the structure. There is talk of renovating the bridge, so go see it before they do. To those of a certain generation it's THE iconic structure in Viet Nam.

Hoi An is a reasonable place to base yourself. Please, if you return, PM me. If I'm in Asia I'll pop over and say 'Hi', and if not then I'd be delighted to offer suggestions for places to visit / people to meet.

I could have warned you about the train. It's not our fault, the French built the line (very badly). Do what the locals do, fly Vietnam Airlines, then use a taxi to wherever you need to go. It's less painful that way.

Speaking about trains, if you go to Da Lat and it's towards the end of the day, you can sometimes persuade - for about $25 - the driver of the train which runs along the short section of line to take you on the journey in the cab all by yourself. It's quite cool. The only time I've ever had a train just to myself. An ambition from my childhood realised :-)

[hanoijane]

Atom:

Sorry to bugger off suddenly last night, but I've caught a beastly UK bug since my return from Taipei a few weeks ago. I felt the urgent need to lie down :-(

Yes, 'Don't hit anyone in front of you' is the only rule. Kinda difficult to follow when you're gazing at some girls cute bum as she zooms past.

I tend to stick my hand in the air when I cross the road, it makes it easier for bike riders to see a pedestrian in the dense traffic ahead. I'm looking forward to Christmas in VN, you simply haven't lived until you've been part of the Christmas-decoration-sightseeing-by-mo'bike on a Sunday evening. It's immense! Unfortunately your bike gets scratched to hell in the melee.

The girls name was Nga. Good pronunciation though. STAY AWAY FROM THE GIRLS :-)

You like Dragon fruit? It's grown against concrete pillars, about one meter high. If you head to Mui Ne you'll see fields of the things.

Seriously, you need to come back. There's a ton of experiences you need to... well... experience :-)

[chippymick]

West Coast.

I’d like to interrupt the travelogue to pick up on a point you made and attempt to put the thread back on topic.

“The here and now is interesting enough.”

Why yes it is.....

When Ho Chi Minh and Giap took advantage of the power vacumn that existed in Indochina in 1945, they honestly believed that their party was best placed to guide Vietnam to the path of independence and end the exploitative feudal system the French inherited when they, quite by accident, colonised the place.

No one can or should argue against some of Ho’s or Giaps aims, which intended to end the exploitation of the many for the benefit of the few. The few in 1945 were most assuredly the French.

Where Giap and Ho were wrong was to adopt the economic experiment of communism and adopt a ‘whatever it takes’ attitude to implement that system. Gross crimes were committed to right a wrong.

Fast forward to the present day and there is still serious inequality (http://hdrstats.undp.org/en/countries/profiles/VNM.html) in Vietnam. The exploitation of the many for the benefit of the few still exists. Nowadays the beneficiaries are not the French but the members of ‘The Party’.

Although, Vietnam has now embraced the capitalism that Giap and Ho once firmly rejected, the benefits are not equally shared as they are in the UK or Australia. For that matter, Malaysia, Singapore or South Korea.

The problem is as Hanoi Jane freely admits is nepotism. It goes much further than his admission that “If my father wasn't who he was, I'd have been washed out at basic”. The spoils from almost every major state controlled enterprise from Banking (http://littlesaigoninside.********.com.au/2009/01/marriage-made-in-vietnam.html)to Construction (http://www.lookatvietnam.com/2011/11/vietnams-youngest-deputy-minister-appointed.html) to those that are not state controlled, like the Vietnamese McDonalds Franchise (http://www.euronews.com/2013/07/16/mcdonald-s-to-open-first-franchise-in-vietnam/), go to the sons and daughters of party leaders.



The sons , daughters and in-laws of the “party” leadership have in essence taken the place of the perfidious and exploitative French.

Funny how the more things change the more they stay the same. It came full cycle in Giap’s lifetime.

Maybe it was because he saw that nothing he ever did actually mattered that turned him into an environmental activist in his dotage?

[hanoijane]

Michael:

But I do object to you interrupting our travelogues. They were fun and informative. Two attributes you should try to incorporate in your posts.

Why is it that every time I read something from you I'm reminded of Timothy Leary talking about '... a brain dressed up with nowhere to go'?

Though I am becoming mildly interested in the reasons behind your intense dislike of Viet Nam. Care to share?

Or...

We could talk aeroplanes. Do you know anything about them at all, other than being an avid collector of serial numbers and airframe history? Did / do you fly them, service them, administer the shiny little fellows?

For example, I'd be mightily interested to hear your assessment of our SAM performance during the American War. Good, bad or indifferent? Did we respond to Wild Weasel in an interesting or effective way? That sort of thing.

Now, you have my complete attention. Please don't disappoint.

[Marcantilan]

Hello HJ,

Talking about airplanes, could I ask your choices about books on air combat over Vietnam, please?

I really like Mitchel´s "Clashes", but is hardly a balanced account (anyway, I read it three times...). I must say, from the NV perspective I have Boniface´s "MIGs Over North Vietnam", a good book.

Could I ask you personnal choices, if any?

Thanks a lot!

[AtomKraft]

HJ

You have a happy habit of hitting nails squarely on the head- I thought particularly so in your comment on Chippymicks' posts.

Keep it up, please. :ok:

[hanoijane]

Marcantilan:

Hi there :-)

I'm glad you added the 'if any' option, because there are non I would care to recommend.

To a greater or lesser extent, they're all works of fiction. American writers, and their fellow travellers, have a particular perspective to cement. Writers favourable to the Vietnamese are equally guilty of bias, though for different reasons.

No writer can present an accurate overview of the air war in Viet Nam, because no-one has access to all the data. The Americans have their own very good reasons for manipulating their data sets. The Vietnamese simply don't have accurate data even on their own losses, far less their successes. I know, I have tried to access this information.

You have to remember that most after-action reports from our side were compiled with one eye on our political masters. As such, they bear little resemblance to reality. We're taught very little of the American War and most of us have even less interest in the detail, unless for personal reasons.

In short; there was a war, some of our people died, we won, life goes on.

I don't know why people care, I really don't.

[West Coast]

Chippy

"I’d like to interrupt the travelogue to pick up on a point you made and attempt to put the thread back on topic"

Got a chuckle out of that.

I defer to your greater knowledge. My company did cooperate with a start up airline in Vietnam a few years back. The folks that I know that spent time there said the man on the street types were friendly but that the political system was full of graft.

Jane

Why is Iraq off the table for you? Is a side by side comparison with the government in Vietnam not something you'd like to compare and contrast?

You've said on occasion you enjoy being anonymous on the prune. You should then be free then to speak of the government, warts and all, minus the state security apparatchik inviting you to an all expense paid trip to the peoples re-education camp. Clearly you are well educated and full of opinion. You surely must hold opinions about issues extending beyond the state sanctioned enemies beyond your shores or is that taboo? I guess you might be known in your country, so I understand.

As to China and your desires to stay away from anyone's sphere of influence, it looks like the your government doesn't seem to agree with you. Can that in of itself get you and invite from the men in black pajamas?

[Pontius Navigator]

I don't know why people care, I really don't.

I guess curiosity and to answer, 'could it have been done differently?'

We have had French v Russian, French v British, and American v Russian but the latter has always been very one-sided. While the first two have been written up extensively the American one, especially where the equipment was operated by Americans has not had the same treatment.

OK, that is simplistic but may be true.

Have a look at the following book:

One Day in a Long War, May 10th, 1972: North Vietnam, Air War by Jeffrey Ethell, Dr. Alfred Price (Hardback, 1990)

Alf's speciality is to set the story be comparing personal narratives by aircrew on both sides of a conflict. Marcantilian my be aware of his work on the Falklands conflict. Ethel tackles one side and Price the other; in this case I don't know who does which.

I have not read the book but I do know Alf.

[hanoijane]

West Coast:

Yes, I'm sure that whatever you say, you're correct.

[goudie]

This is one of the most interesting threads I've followed, for some time.
Thoughtful contributions from all sides, though I must admit to being somewhat beguiled by hanoijane!

[hanoijane]

PN:

I don't doubt the accuracy of a snapshot of the conflict (well I do, depending on their sources) but I don't see what it teaches you about the conflict itself. More to the point, I don't see why anyone should care, other than maudlin curiosity.

It's done. Over. Finished.

Now, tell me something interesting - like - just how long do you think your Vulcan would have lasted in Soviet airspace?

[hanoijane]

Goudie:

Does beguiled mean you're hot for me?

You do realise I'm male? With an incredibly tiny penis?

[goudie]

to engage the interest of by or as if by guile
I meant this HJ


You do realise I'm male? With an incredibly tiny penis


You're not a Ladyboy by any chance?:eek::eek:

[West Coast]

Jane

Why such an attitude? Are the minders giving you advice? Is the Government of Vietnam so perfect that you have nothing to say? Ask me about my government and I'll use epithets that are less than gentlemanly. Do you enjoy that same level of freedom to discuss your government?

[Pontius Navigator]

HJ, I would cock shy to say long enough for 70% of the weapons systems to have worked. Post-attack was probably not to different either as damage would have been widespread.

Remember a fair number of targets barely required the bombers to go feet dry.

PS, AFAIK the Victor SR2 sqn were planned to do a round robin of the different targets for post-strike reconnaissance for subsequent re-attacks by other forces.

[hanoijane]

Goudie:

Not a ladyboy. I'm not pretty enough. Sadly.


West Coast:

No attitude. I simply find you quite dull. Is it wrong to be honest?

But to entertain you;

I have no minders, I'm not that important. And the reason I'm non too critical of my government is that I rather like they way they're handling things at the moment.

They need to do more for the desperately poor and they need to look at the (re)distribution of wealth, but that's a problem common to the West too. If you guys can find a solution, we'll follow, trust me.

There is a very active, vocal and growing-in-influence alternative political movement in Viet Nam. I know, because I meet with these people, though I don't agree with much of what they say. They're affluent, middle class, very well educated (usually abroad) and they want the freedom to get richer, faster. But they are committed to Viet Nam, which is why they're allowed the freedom to express their views at all levels.

And freedom to bitch is permitted here. There are regular demonstrations in front of the Hotel de Ville by the Rex in HCMC, usually over land issues. The police let the protesters hang around for a few hours with their banners, get photographed by the press and the tourists, then load them into trucks and drop them just outside the city limits with the invitation 'Now you can walk home'.

Try protesting in front of your local city hall and see how kindly you're treated in the land of the free. You'll be on the Homeland Security database before your ass hits the ground. And, as Mr Snowdon has already revealed, your intention to protest will already be known to your security services if you arranged it via cellphone, landline or Internet. If only we had that level of population control...

However, having lived in Vientiane for eight months recently, I'm happy to say VERY rude things about the Lao government. Would you like to hear those?

[hanoijane]

PN:

Without going into details of WHY I'm saying this, I hope you're writing down everything you know somewhere. It's amazingly interesting. Yes, not for a place / time such as PPRuNe / now, but in 30 years you'll be dead and twits like Michael will be making stuff up to suit their purposes.

For gods sake, write a bloody book.

[West Coast]

Jane

I suspect being quite boring is code for asking uncomfortable questions.

You wrote some wonderful propaganda for the central government. I hope it gets you the communist of the week award along with the associated jam and jelly prize.
Don't confuse or limit your scope of critical review to the market changes the the communist government has implemented. Your form of governance would go the way of the dodo bird if it hadn't emulated it's big brother in China. Do you have the right to demonstrate for the peaceful overthrow of the communist government? I'll defer to the UN (not an easy thing for me) they say no. Funny thing, I do. Be damned if it didn't work, Obama was elected anyway. I however did things under the name of political freedoms you never have, nor will ever do as long as the communists rule your land. I'm somewhat ashamed I take those freedoms for granted, forgetting there's million who don't enjoy that freedom. Shame on me.

As a journo in a communist country I can only imagine what you say and do is monitored closely by the government for evidence of dissent. So nothing you've said really comes as a surprise. I suppose it could be worse, you could be in North Korea, and a mouthpiece for that truly repressive regime rather than the largely benign (as long as you tow the line) communist government of Vietnam.

You have much work to do on the art of deflection, you're obviously uncomfortable when the political questions hit close to home. Should you choose to compare and contrast the political dissent allowed in our countries reletive to one another, you will come up short, far short. You have strained your credibility to the breaking point, but I'll play along if you wish to continue.

How 'bout we name a political dissident or perhaps we discuss your fav re-education camp?

[Janda]

West Coast I am not a communist and fully agree that all people have the right to democracy. However, Vietnam is successful because of Communism. During 2 holidays I have travelled extensively through the country. I travelled independantly with my wife and chose when and where to go. I was not monitered, I was not refused travel to any part of the country. I found the people gracious, friendly and more importantly happy. No one doubts that there is poverty there but then that is the case in most western countries including your own. The people generally have more than enough food and tend to have jobs. The only restriction they have in moving about the country is affordability. I am sure there is also crime and I have to admit their prisons are not where I would like to be. But again many countries of the world have dubious penal systems. I never felt unsafe at any time during our journey.

From my limited (because of my time and not any restriction) access to people most were happy with what there government is doing. When I visit the country of my birth the same cannot be said. Even where I now live in NZ not all are happy with there lot.

To sum it up Vietnam is a wonderfull country with problems but name me one country that is Utopia!!

[West Coast]

I'm sure Vietnam was all those things for you. I'm glad you enjoyed your holidays there.

As you correctly point out no country is without it's flaws. If I had to list my countries warts, it would be a long night for both of us. Difference between Jane and you and I is we can express my dissatisfaction without fear.
You seem in your argument to tie an affordable vacation as evidence of the success of communism. I've enjoyed vacations in many countries on the cheap that weren't communist, Mexico being my favorite, so please expand on your statement that Vietnam is successful BECAUSE of communism.

The party followed the communist playbook to the letter after the fall of SV and fiscally suffered. Only after emulating the concept of fiscal incentivtive noted in China has the nation prospered. The free market in Vietnam is becoming more and more tainted by capitalist mindset and associated incentive, that being something even our esteemed communist friend agrees with, so you'll understand if I need you to properly explain how repression breeds success. A cheap supply of always willing labor perhaps?

I've visited New Zealand in my military days. Stunningly beautiful visuals, the folks I encountered were all very pleasant, and the ladies with that accent drove all of us yanks crazy. What I didnt encounter there was any of the political dissatisfaction you note. Like you, I was on holidays. I had a great time and to boot, the government wasn't communist! Should I be lucky enough to visit again, besides fishing, I'll search out some of New Zealand's dissidents. Should be easy to find them. Vietnam's are easy to find as well, they're in jail.

[chippymick]

Hanoi Jane I assume this is directed at me

“but in 30 years you'll be dead and twits like Michael will be making stuff up to suit their purposes.”

Please feel free to indicate anything that I have ‘made up’ as you claim?

Please feel free to correct any inaccuracies in my posts.

I say that Giap is the most over rated General of the 20th century. Again I ask for an example of tactical or strategic innovation he was responsible for. Neither you nor any of his other boosters here have provided one.

I say that Giap was a war criminal (http://www.dienbienphu.org/english/html/captivite/captivity.htm) who went unpunished.

I say that Giap committed crimes against humanity (http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP6.HTM) in the land reform campaigns of 1955-56; his only punishment was to be condemned to irrelevance in the politburo and thus exercised no influence on the conduct of the American War.

I’ve also taken you to task regarding your tasteless comment regarding the refugees that fled the regime post 1975. The UNHCR tells us that in 1981 alone, 599 Vietnamese women (http://www.vietka.com/Vietnamese_Boat_People/HorribleStatistics.htm) were victims of rape in the South China Sea trying to escape communism. This to you is joke fodder.

You are a real classy guy.

The Vietnamese economy was so badly run in the period 1975 to 1985 that by 1988 remittances from these refugees (http://www.insead.edu/facultyresearch/research/doc.cfm?did=2471) constituted the single biggest source of foreign exchange. Ever since then the regime has been begging the Viet Kieu (http://vietnamnews.vn/society/237017/overseas-vietnamese-urged-to-boost-technology-transfer.html) to return with their hard earned. If there is a joke in there somewhere - that is it.

The problem with Vietnamese is that they never stop to consider anyone else’s post colonial struggle for independence and how in the absence of communism things might have been different. In 1945 both Singapore and Vietnam were in dire economic straits as a result of the war. Both were governed by European colonists. Did you know that nowadays Singapore sends school groups (http://www.sino-global.com.sg/~sngbtvpl/edu-school-tours/moe-s-4-panel-s/panel/vietnam-hcm-r1/) to tour Vietnam so that their school kiddies can see what poverty looks like?

It is impossible to argue that the Vietnamese people could have been any worse off if they had followed any other path than the one the Lao Dong Party (http://vietnamnews.vn/politics-laws/245071/confidence-drops-in-anti-corruption-fight.html) took them down.

[chuks]

It's an odd thing, the way that our involvement in Viet Nam hangs like a bad smell. I recently went for a simple haircut in McLean, Virginia and found myself instead chatting with two young ladies from Viet Nam, another two who had "voted with their feet."

Let's just say that they probably would not agree with much of anything that our very own Hanoi Jane is putting up here; they would come across as far too "dull" for Jane's fact-free style of dialogue, each point either seized upon, when it has to do with where to get the best fresh monkey-brain salad, or else airily dismissed when it has to do with the obvious shortcomings of the pathetic excuse for a government in today's Viet Nam. In culinary terms, that would be the difference between a roast suckling pig and a meringue: one is much less artful and much more substantial than the other.

One of Jane's fellow travelers and I shared a domicile once. I was bemused to find and read one of her little booklets that held, between its red and yellow covers, the tale of how Tan Son Nhut Air Base had been totally destroyed by the NLF, during their totally successful Tet Offensive.

"But, wait just a goldarn minute!" I spluttered, "I was there, and nothing like that took place! Some of SASless's rude chums showed up with their rocket-firing helicopters, and some of our Air Farce with Skyraiders, and they purely did the pee-whappy on those little guys in black pajamas! Tan Son Nhut was only lightly damaged. It was just that we had to wash our own dishes for a few days, that was all! So, what kind of nonsense is this?"

"Ah," (spoken in a lofty tone). "You do not understand. This is how it was supposed to be!" Art trumps life, so to speak, something only a dullard can fail to understand.

There you have it. There is objective truth, what Jane denounces here as "dull," and then you have this bizarre alternative, emotional truth, what Jane & Co. need to believe. (That's probably about the same for Jane's vaunted ability in flying a "Mig" [sic], not that we could ever get to the bottom of that little side-issue.)

If present-day Viet Nam is ruled by a corrupt clique of pseudo-Communists, well... never mind that! Just look at the scenery, and taste those fresh monkey brains! Mmm-mmm, good!

It's the same basic message we get about modern Cuba, all this tosh about friendly people, beautiful scenery and good food, as if the sufferings of a citizenry under misrule are of no consequence, as they are not to true believers in their own petty reality, those who exist like water striders, curious little insects who move about on the surface, largely oblivious to what goes on beneath, dull reality.

[hanoijane]

Gentlemen of PPRuNe,

I did point out somewhere along the line that one of the hats I wear is as a writer. The more astute among you may have concluded I was collecting material. Indeed I was.

I've been commissioned to write a piece based around Giap's death and the present-day views the military and ex-military on his passing and on their perception of Viet Nam in general. Where better to start than here? Here I don't get PR speak, I get real emotion. Thank you for your passion.

I'd also like to thank those from non-combatant nations who participated in this discussion. Your contributions were marked by eloquence and a balanced view of matters. They will be included in my work.

If you entered into PM correspondence with me on this (or indeed any) subject, fear not, for I will, of course, respect your right to privacy.

Please, Wholigan, don't start wailing about 'copyright'. Viet Nam is not a signatory to international agreements on such things. I already have screen shots of everything I need and I shall quote as I see fit.

As I'm now OBVIOUSLY banned, I regret that our exchanges are at an end.

PN, I shall miss our little chats. Please, do write the book. You have a lot to say, an interesting way of saying it, and you seem to epitomise the finer qualities of a dying generation. Plus you're funny. I would love to read it.

It's been a giggle. Thanks to all. Stay safe.


HJ

[chippymick]

What a bloody drama Queen.

“As I'm now OBVIOUSLY banned”, Clearly not, as you have OBVIOUSLY posted it.

Why am I reminded of Sebastian and his teddy from ‘Brideshead revisited’?

If you can’t handle the heat, by all means get out of the kitchen. Don’t let the door etc.

Cheers

Mick

[AtomKraft]

Citizens of America!

You have re-run the Vietnam war in the movies- and you won!

You can re-fight it on pprune if you wish- and win it again.

Nothings going to change the fact that you had to run away from the real one.

What's that old saying again? 'One should be modest in victory, generous in defeat'.

We don't ever hear much on pprune from 'the other side', either with regard to Vietnam (or Iraq, Afghanistan etc.) and when we do, personally, I think it's great.

The US and Vietnam remain very different places. We all know that.
In my view, it's like comparing apples and bananas.

Vietnam is on the up. I hope they do well, they deserve to and we found the place utterly magical- especially the folk.

The debt-ridden US is a great Country too- and I like the yanks as well. We all know that the US has it's share of problems too though.

As far as Giap goes- well, it's clearly not a one sided pretty picture.

He played a huge part in the defeat of France in his country- I'm really not as sure now how much of a part he played in the downfall of the US there, but the main point remains clear.

You lost- and badly.

And you're still sore about it.

The Viets won, Not once, but twice.

Stunning victories.

And they've pretty much put it behind them.

There's a lesson in there somewhere....

[chippymick]

I'm Australian.

You could have saved a great deal of electrons and typing time and just went with.

"I'm really not as sure"

But don't let me stop you holding forth on a subject you clearly know less about than the late lamented HJ.

Glad to see that you have adjusted your attitude from "Giap was a generals General" to "As far as Giap goes- well, it's clearly not a one sided pretty picture."

Feel free to backpedal as fast as you can manage.

Cheers

Mick

[AtomKraft]

Mick

I'm not backpedalling- I'm learning.

Don't be a fanny now.;)

[chuks]

As we say, "When I left, we were winning!"

AtomKraft is not backpedaling; he is advancing to the rear!

Odd as it may seem, some historians view our misbegotten Viet Nam adventure as having prevented this "Domino effect," the vision of which helped get us into that fight. Too, some point to our long-term support for the Saigon government, at the cost of much blood and treasure, as showing a reasonable amount of grit and staying power. Perhaps that was not enough to satisfy some chippy little self-confessed pervert, but what of that?

For our opponents to have "won," then I think one would have to see present-day Viet Nam flourishing under some sort of Marxist-Leninist rule that includes, of course, the dictatorship of the proletariat. Not even Jane is ready to put that fantasy forth! No, instead, they seem to have gone for some sort of perverted capitalism while managing to avoid almost all of the democracy that makes America such an attractive place to so many, including, of course, many Vietnamese.

[AtomKraft]

Aww Chuks

Talk about being a sore loser.

Anyway, those who ignore the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them- and that's precisely what's happened ever since.

Look: we all like the US- but when are you ever going to knock these foreign entanglements on the head?
Let's face it- they're expensive and often turn out badly.

As far as Giap goes, well clearly he was no saint- and not quite the untarnished hero that I thought he was at the outset.

So what?

If he'd done nothing else apart from the campaign that did for the French at DBP- that would be one heck of a legacy right there.

I salute him. :ok:

[hanoijane]

Gosh, I can still log in. Wholigan must be more tolerant than I thought :-)

Now that my work is complete, I'm happy to engage in a manner less obtuse than previously. If you forgive my baiting of poor Michael, West Coast, et al that is...

[chuks]

I did my time in the big green machine, including two years in, yes, Viet Nam, got out, used my VA benefits to get some education and then some flying training, and used all of that to go abroad, to be free to live outside the States and put most of that behind me.

Not all vets drive around in big pick-up trucks decorated with gaudy decals of eagles, flags, guns and such, although I do not mind any that do! Try smarting off in the way that you prefer, to a real "sore loser," and then get back to us about how that one worked out! Just look for the sort of dive that has Harleys and pick-up trucks parked outside, go inside, and then start jacking your jaws about our military history in the same way that you choose to, here on the internet. I can guarantee you a fascinating and truly close encounter with a certain segment of our American population.

There is no "sore loser" in me at all, particularly since I agree that we did not do a particularly good job in Viet Nam, no.

If we were to see its people choosing to stay in now-unified Viet Nam, that really might make us "losers," but instead I seem to trip over Vietnamese in the oddest corners of the world, including here in Germany. They came here as fellow socialists during the time of the DDR, and have stayed as street peddlers of cigarettes and such, finding their meagre German existence preferable to life back home.

Here, we have had to put up with some rather childish and perverted provocation from what one can only hope is some sort of artificial construct, "hanoijane." It has been a rather one-sided look at what went on, what has been going on since we left, in Viet Nam. Some of us might have been seduced by the presentation, when I would have to call that "temporary insanity."

If you like saluting such men as Giap, get busy looking up all the others who have scored military successes while ignoring what we like to think of as the rules of civilized warfare. You will be worn out, saluting all the monsters such as Giap, but that's your choice, I suppose. I prefer to turn my back on them; my heroes are to be found in the arts.

Meanwhile, thanks, AtomKraft, for your reminder about the value of learning the lessons of history, even though I think I heard that first some 50 years ago. Perhaps it came across to you as fresh and original, so thank you for that.

[AtomKraft]

Chuks

I'm whispering here......' You had no business being there in the first place'.

All the **** that followed (including that perpetrated by Giap et al) could have been avoided, if you'd just stayed at home. 55,000 US soldiers and Lord knows how many Viets, would still be alive.
The horrific effects of 'Agent Orange' avoided.

I expect Vietnam would have turned out roughly as it did without the US involvement? But who really knows?

The 'domino theory' was bollocks- and the 'friendly' regime in the south, that you tried to prop up, corrupt.

It was classic misadventure on the part of the US, and I'm just glad that Harold Wilson kept us out.

As for that old quote- sure it's old. So old that many have clearly forgotten it...

[chippymick]

Atom

I'm not backpedalling- I'm learning.

Look, I doubt it.

But if you are in the mood for learning. Your newest besty HJ raised ADFA’s Bob Hall and Derrill De Heer’s ‘Wandering Souls’ (http://lib.unsw.adfa.edu.au/exhib/wandering_souls_anzac/ows.html) project.

A thoroughly decent act of humanity that is attempting to locate the graves of PAVN/VC killed by Australians in Vietnam and return personal artefacts – wedding rings, photographs etc. Things that might have been souvenired by Australian soldiers, as is their habit.

How it came about, would probably be described by HJ – Given his doctorate in economics and all, as a ‘positive externality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality)’

What Bob Hall did was to log every contact in Phouc Tuy province in Google map. You see, whenever Australian’s killed VC/PAVN lads, they buried them and made a record of the grid reference where they were buried.

Hall’s original academic brief was to examine how the lethality of the Australian Infantryman could be improved based on the contact reports. His conclusion was that the load needed to be lessened so that more ammunition could be carried and marksmanship can always be improved. That might seem like the bleeding obvious but Hall statistically proved it.

The positive externality is that the Google map information regarding contacts could then be passed on to the Vietnamese who could then act on the information.

Hall and De Heer went a little bit further and contacted all of the Vietnam Unit Associations to see how many personal artefacts that they could potentially return to families in Vietnam.

Bob Hall. Smart and decent guy.

You tell me that 'One should be modest in victory, generous in defeat'.

How does that fit with the treatment of the graves of ARVN soldiers or the attempts to find the bodies of those who died (http://www.vietremains.org/about.php) in the re-education camps?

[AtomKraft]

Thanks Mick

I'd never heard about any of that stuff you just posted, but it all sound very honourable and worthwhile.

Every day a schoolday, eh? ;)

[chippymick]

I’ll bet London to a brick you’ve never heard about any of the stuff I’ve posted. Ask yourself if HJ can’t knock a hole in it, why is that so?

I’m happy to have my perspective challenged.

Can I be bold enough to challenge yours?

Get yourself an early Christmas present go to Amazon buy and read David Marr’s ‘Vietnam 1945 – A Quest for Power’

You’ve clearly got an interest in the subject and I think that would be the best starting point for you.

I know that sounds patronising but it is meant with the best of intentions.

Best regards

Mick

[Marcantilan]

HJ, due to my limited knowledge in English I can´t visualize if you are being honest or sarcastic. Anyway, thanks for answering me.

PN, thanks also for recommending Ethel & Price book, I am going to check it.

Regards,

[AtomKraft]

Chippy.
Well, I have got an interest, but I only have that casual interest in mil history that many ex soldiers have.

I've just taken delivery of 'Giap- The victor in Vietnam', but maybe after I've read that, I'll look at your suggestion.

As for the other stuff you've kindly posted up in support of your own arguaments, - sure most is new to me. But then your whole Aussie stance is new to me too. It's a shame your pm was not as wise as ours.....although I'm not a fan of anything else Wilson did, he called that one spot on.

I view threads like these as a chance to listen (and learn) as well as gob off on. Maybe you know ten times what I know- I wouldn't be surprised.

The views of others are often surprising, thoughtful and informative. I'd class Hanoijanes' as good examples. Wouldn't you?

In summary, I admire Giap because he stood up to and defeated two much larger countries that tried to force themselves on Vietnam.

The finer points of who did what to whom, and when are not really of such huge interest to me. In any case, much is disputed.

I'm not a 'hater' of the US. I'm just sick fed up of seeing them throwing their weight around all over the World, and at the same time always claiming to be in the right, and having won sort of victory, after having to scurry off home with the job half done or an even bigger mess in place than when they started.
We'll never have peace until they learn not to meddle in the affairs of others.

The Vietnamese WON in Vietnam. They deserved it.

The US- and it's few allies, LOST. They deserved it too.

Giap played his part, and I say well done.

[Mach Two]

Please, Wholigan, don't start wailing about 'copyright'. Viet Nam is not a signatory to international agreements on such things. I already have screen shots of everything I need and I shall quote as I see fit.

Your dishonesty and abuse of PPRuNe members is, frankly, totally unworthy. I hope the following might help:
Does Vietnam have copyright laws?


Yes. Copyright issues in Vietnam are covered by the Law on Intellectual Property of 2005. Guidance on the Law on Intellectual Property is provided by the government Decree issued in September of 2006.
The documents are available here (in English):


Law on Intellectual Property 20/2005/QH (http://rmit.net.au/redirect?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wipo.int%2Fwipolex%2Fen%2Fdeta ils.jsp%3Fid%3D5005)

(http://rmit.net.au/redirect?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wipo.int%2Fwipolex%2Fen%2Fdeta ils.jsp%3Fid%3D5005)
Decree no 100-CP of 21 September 2006 (http://rmit.net.au/redirect?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wipo.int%2Fwipolex%2Fen%2Fdeta ils.jsp%3Fid%3D5006)

(http://rmit.net.au/redirect?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wipo.int%2Fwipolex%2Fen%2Fdeta ils.jsp%3Fid%3D5006)
One of the most important and key points of the Law on Intellectual Property of Vietnam, is Clause 2 of Article 25. That states users will not be in breach of copyright if they use works for teaching purposes as set out below;


Reproduce one single copy for the purposes of individual teaching
Quoting from a work for teaching in schools without alteration of the contents and not for commercial purposes
Copying a work for archives in libraries for the purposes of research
Each and every use of a copyright work must include a reference statement.

In using a copyright work for teaching purposes in Vietnam you must ensure you do not publish or provide the materials to the public in any form either on the internet or as a part of a printed publication, the copyright work must only be provided to enrolled students for study purposes.


In any use of a copyright work for teaching purposes, you must ensure that you reference the work used, as per Clause 2 of Article 25. Standard referencing styles should be used. Each and every use of a copyright work must include a reference statement.

[melmothtw]

Your dishonesty and abuse of PPRuNe members is, frankly, totally unworthy.


Lighten up. This is a public and open source forum where everyone's contributions are entirely anonymous. Nothing that's written here is copyrighted, so the issue doesn't even come up.

[West Coast]

Atom

The mark of a student who is learning is listening and asking questions.

Jane

Happy trolling. I've seen little of any type of reasoning or persuasive powers that a journo has to have. Post the piece about the General if you have the balls.

[chuks]

AtomKraft, let me whisper something to you, student of history as you fancy yourself to be: We had, arguably, no business becoming involved on the side of Great Britain in either of those "World Wars"!

What of that terrible, terrible Maggie Thatcher, who had no business in the Malvinas? Oh, sorry... Ronald Reagan put her up to that, right?

If you want to follow your own chain of logic, something on the order of "If your aunt had wheels, she would be a tea cart," then you might now be on a par with me, speaking German, just not from choice! That would have depended on us taking your whispers of wisdom seriously, I suppose. Foolish boy....

We had a treaty with the Republic of Viet Nam, and we thought we could help them win that fight with their Communist foes, plus put the frighteners on the Global Communist Conspiracy, so we gave it a shot, and, yes, we lost! Well, one can finesse that a bit to say that it was not our defeat, strictly speaking, but we certainly failed to achieve our aim, the continued existence of the Republic of Viet Nam, and that after many, many lives had been lost.

If Jane is a typical journalist for "the other side," then "Sleep well America!" Gawd! What a way to gather information! A fairly bright school child could find a better way than that to accomplish Jane's stated task! If he flies the way he writes....

[AtomKraft]

Chuks.

It wasn't the Brits that invaded the Falklands in '82- twas the Argies.
It wasn't the US that started WW2 either.

The Viets had got rid of the French, and the US should have left it at that.

[Pontius Navigator]

We had, arguably, no business becoming involved on the side of Great Britain in either of those "World Wars"!
I will ignore the 2nd, but would be interested to know why you did become involved in the 1917-18 war.

[Lonewolf_50]

Try protesting in front of your local city hall and see how kindly you're treated in the land of the free. You'll be on the Homeland Security database before your ass hits the ground.
Nope. You are about as full of crap as a Christmas goose. I've done the peaceful protest thing outside of city hall five times in the past 12 years. I did a sign carrying deal outside the White House in 1970's. What you think you know, you don't know.
And, as Mr Snowdon has already revealed, your intention to protest will already be known to your security services if you arranged it via cellphone, landline or Internet. If only we had that level of population control...
Your countrymen prorably aren't interested in that: oh, and NSA doesn't mind read. I case you weren't aware, you typically file a notice to the local LE to ensure they are prepared for the traffic snarls. But hey, you are free to make stuff up from over there across the pond. Have a few more pints, and make up some more. I hear the Irish have a gift for that.

Pro Tip: the Tuatha Dé Danann were not real people.
Citizens of America! You have re-run the Vietnam war in the movies- and you won!
Maybe you need to watch a few of those Viet Nam movies and learn the difference between lost and won. Again, Atom, I note that you have waxed "as full of crap as a Christmas goose."
Here are four films for your consideration:

Go Tell the Spartans
Platoon
Apocalypse Now
Deer Hunter

There are others. In none of these is "we won the war this time" the theme.

[chuks]

Blame Woodrow Wilson, I guess! Well, him and the Zimmerman Telegram, Germany trying to get them Meskins all riled up to grab back what we stole fair and square.

Anyway, we won it, didn't we? Something like that, anyway....

[AtomKraft]

Yes Chuks. And that was the main thing.

Thanks first to the Russkis- then the US, then the rest....;)

[chuks]

"Thanks first to the Russkis"?

Umm, you are aware that the war in question is the First World War, yes? "1917-1918," and all that. I think you will find that the Russians did not contribute to the Allied victory in that war, far from it, but you tell me!

I bet you think we started the Cold War, come to that! Yes, poor old peace-loving Uncle Joe Stalin, backed into a corner and forced to respond to American aggression.... If only that nice Henry Wallace had got the nod to continue as VP of the USA, instead of being shoved aside in favor of Harry Truman.

[AtomKraft]

Sorry Chuks

I was thinking of WW2- although you were writing about WW1....:uhoh:

[West Coast]

Iffin you want to thank the Ruskies, you better thank the Muricans first for there wouldn't have been a viable Soviet military without the lend lease agreement that gave so much equipment to them.

Don't take my word, takes Stalin's as he said it at the Tehran conference: "Without American production the United Nations [the Allies] could never have won the war"

Must grind your gears to know we saved you...again.

[Pontius Navigator]

I bet you think we started the Cold War, come to that! Yes, poor old peace-loving Uncle Joe Stalin, backed into a corner and forced to respond to American aggression...

Thanks Chuks,

Regarding Uncle Joe I am not so sure. They were forced to sue for peace with Germany, then the revolution, followed by a concerted anti-revolutionary response by most countries in Europe and the USA virtually ringing European Russia in an attempt to crush the communist revolution.

I suspect only the war weariness post the 1914-1919 war negated the allied efforts. Then came Spain. Then finally a peace treat with Germany before they were stabbed in the back in 1941.

I then see the Soviet advance into Germany and a determination to crush Germany once and for all. Countering the Soviet advance was an allied thrust intended to halt the Soviets.

From Soviet eyes you might think that the west was again intent on crushing communism. The atom bomb was developed by the allies, or rather only two of the allies. In 1947 the US CoS crafted an extensive war plan postulating WW3 in 1957 and even considered a pre-emptive strike.

While attack is said to be the best means of defence, we can see it also leads to an arms race.

[West Coast]

Nav

I would imagine in 1947 there were war plans for just about any nation, not only in the West but sitting in a vault in the Kremlin as well. The Sov's certainly couldn't have been surprised to hear of it.

[chippymick]

Hi Atom,

You will probably enjoy reading it but McDonald’s biography of Giap has a few flaws.

Firstly, McDonald took at face value pretty much everything Giap told him.

Secondly, the book is extremely dated.

More recent works based on research in the Viet and Chinese archives contradict the narrative spun by Giap to McDonald. I’m thinking specifically of Zhai’s ‘China and the Vietnam Wars 1950-1975’ and Nguyen’s ‘Hanoi’s War’. Even if you don’t read the books the Amazon reviews will give you some idea of which bits McDonald got wrong.

Much of the credit that McDonald gives to Giap in conducting the American War was actually due to Le Duan. It is probably worth looking at the Le Duan wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Duan) which, unusually for wiki, is pretty much on the money.

I hope that helps.

[chuks]

Here in Germany, battalions of soap-dodgers were raised to believe in the peace-loving DDR. Post-collapse, it came to light that the DDR was cocked and ready for a war of aggression against the German Federal Republic, right down to stocks of new street signs for major cities, along with vast stocks of munitions.

When we moved Pershings into West Germany, primarily to show that we were no longer planning to back off to Paris to fight off the raving Commie hordes, there again, that was taken as a sign of Western aggression against the peace-loving, etc., etc.

What our Jane led off with here is simply more leftist cant, albeit from a fresh angle... nothing new really. We did a rather poor job of fighting the Viet Nam War, and Giap got fresh kudos as its "winner," so, "Can you phrase that as a question, please?" That is to say, is there something new and unexpected in this full and frank exchange of views?

I remember a chilly day in Edinburgh, the day after we tried to turn Muammar into a grease spot. My hostess turned to me and said, with a perfectly earnest mien, "I think that the USA is a far greater threat to world peace than the Soviet Union." I simply thanked her for that insight into popular British opinion and carried on, thinking, no, wondering, what part of Londonistan she had been raised in.

[parabellum]

The Vietnamese WON in Vietnam. They deserved it.

The US- and it's few allies, LOST. They deserved it too.

AtomKraft - you should modify those statements. The American military won it's part in the conflict, when it left the NV had been given a very bloody nose, it was the corrupt South Vietnamese military who then gave up the fight.

[Pontius Navigator]

West Coast, the curious thing is that the US CoS in 1947 made assumptions on what Britain could bring to the party in 1957. It stipulated the number of bomber groups (aka sqns) and reconnaissance groups in UK, the Middle East and the Far East. What is curious is that this pre-dated any such bilateral agreements. This went in to fine detail such as 1 1/2 recce sqns in Malta being NATO assigned and 1/2 to CENTO. In Singapore purpose built accommodation was built for 2 UK medium bomber sqns (in addition to facilities for resident Canberra sqns).

It is possible however that the published war plan included later amendments after the UK plans were known.

[chippymick]

Hi parabellum.


The Case-Church Amendment (http://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095553737) passed by the US Senate in June 1973, prohibited any further US military action in Vietnam, Laos or Cambodia.

Not a single shot was fired, or bomb dropped by the US in support of the Republic of Vietnam after this date.

The last US combat troops (http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2013/03/today_in_history_vietnam_toops_withdraw_40th_anniversary.htm l) had withdrawn in March 1973.

In 1973 the US archives record (http://www.archives.gov/research/military/vietnam-war/casualty-statistics.html) 68 and in 1974 only one death due to war service in Vietnam. I am told, but cannot confirm, that some these deaths occurred in Stateside hospitals as a result of combat prior to March 1973. A lag in the death rate due to serious injuries sustained in combat seems plausible to me. By comparison the US death rate peaked in 1968 with 16,899 deaths.

The two years before the fall of Saigon in 1975 were among the most peaceful that the citizens of North and South Vietnam had experienced since 1941.

It wasn’t until two years after the last US Combat troops had handed over to the ARVN that in April 1975 that the Communist North conquered the south in a combined arms action that rates as their best performance since 1954.

Anyway you cut it, the fact that the US had withdrawn for two years prior to the defeat of the ARVN falls well short of the ‘arse kicking’ that some folk like to imagine.

It is hard to have your arse kicked when your arse is elsewhere.

Also not there, not involved and completely disengaged from the final campaign was the man the western media credits with sinking the slipper in - Vo Nguyen Giap.

But, cut Atom some slack at least he is prepared to consider historical facts.

Cheers

Mick.

[Archimedes]

Stalin's as he said it at the Tehran conference: "Without American production the United Nations [the Allies] could never have won the war"


If we are going to get into tiresome, nationalistic waving of gentlemen's appendages in a sort of teenage, Top Trumps style (otherwise known as 'Pretty much all of West Coast's contributions regarding the US's role in the 2nd World War'), let's at least note that what he actually said was that without American production, the Allies would've lost the war because that aid was critical to holding the Germans off.

He couldn't have said that the allies would never have won the war, despite the claims of the likes of Time magazine, since the statement was made at Tehran in 1943, which - last time I looked - was some 18 months before the war in Europe ended and well before the war was won (Stalin was still harbouring doubts as to whether there would be a 2nd front).

What 'grinds our gears', WC, is the utter, unremitting 'rub your noses into it' attitude that many of our American friends adopt, particulary those (not you, lest there be any doubt) who seem to think that rather than have many thousands of deaths and serious injuries, we Brits sat back on our posteriors and decided to fight to the last American if necessary. We're not claiming to have won the war, merely to have played a fairly important part in it, especially between 1939 and 1942.

[chuks]

I was raised on the usual liberal mindset of the early to mid 60's in Westport, Connecticut. Westport was home then, probably still is now, to people who were "anti-war," some to the point of being downright apologists for Stalin & Co. It was a given that we had provoked Stalin, that the USSR had defeated Nazi Germany at the cost of 20 million dead (a figure that later was shown to have included many people actually killed by Stalin & Co.) and had then flipped from being a monstrous dictatorship in the thrall of the cult of Stalin's personality to being some sort of warm and fuzzy ally in the war against German fascism... until, of course, we upset the Bear with our own beastliness.

Of course, on the other side, we did have those raving loons, the John Birch Society, who were convinced that some of our recent presidents, even, had been Commie stooges. That did not help much!

Viet Nam, for most of the people I went to school with, was an unprovoked war of aggression against simple peasants dressed in black pajamas and home-made sandals, and, a bit later, a dastardly plot by Lyndon Baines Johnson, simple-minded, cruel, Texas sh1t-kicker, to kill anyone who might have dropped out of Harvard or Yale or else simply wanted to be some sort of Trustafarian for a while, trying to find himself. (Having a close look in a nearby "place where the sun don't shine" would have been the shortest way to achieve that goal, finding oneself as a privileged suburbanite, but never mind that now. For many of my fellow Westporters, there was time and money a-plenty.)

The twists and turns of history are a funny thing... food for endless speculation and discussion, and always good for a wind-up. Of course, most US citizens have been handed a very different version of history from anything close to the truth, so that the simple truth can be enough to wind them up, something such as our late entry into, and rather minor role in, WWI. When, as here, it comes to some of the wilder distortions of history, laced with alarming success at being amazingly unpleasant, then it becomes a matter of "Light blue touch paper and stand well back."

I hope that the Mods leave poor Jane un-banned; simply leaving Jane ignored will truly grind his, her or its gears to the maximum amount possible, I bet.

[hanoijane]

Poor Jane reporting for duty, Sir.

Not at all chucks, my little chum. For I have no gears to grid. I care little whether I'm read by a million or simply by my own eyes. The fun is in the writing.

How are you today? Have you calmed down yet? Or is your fear and loathing of anything vaguely c...c...c...communist still waking you up at night in a cold sweat? We're coming to get you, oh yes we are...

I see you've ventured into re-writing WWI and WWII. Excellent stuff! Golly, we'll have you on the field at Agincourt next, thrashing those left-wing Frenchies who were trying to usurp your Republican forebearers.

Tell me, was there ever a phase in your life (I'm guessing it was prior to your military indoctrination) where you were able to conduct a discussion without coming to it with your opinions fully formed?

I do understand the bitterness from one who was (allegedly) present during the American War. I too would be somewhat miffed if I'd seen my chums killed or maimed in what ultimately proved to be an entirely pointless war. But I would have hoped that time and logic would have assuaged your pain. Clearly not.

I suggest therapy. Either that, or rush out and purchase a never-ending supply of war comics where you can relive the majesty of your days thrashing the Communist hordes. Sounds like fun? I'm sure it does :-)

[chuks]

It's chuks, Jane, not "chucks," but you can call me "Sir." (Attention to detail/not overlooking the bleedin' obvious: one of the marks of a well-trained journalist.)

It must be interesting, Jane, scuttling around in the dustbin of history chasing one's tail. I bet that the increasing number of tracks to follow makes one dream of really getting somewhere! Good luck with that; you are going to need it.

No idea what modern Viet Nam looks like, but the former DDR (East Germany), post-collapse... what a dump! Nobody there was "coming to get" anyone, just going from what was on show. It was quite reassuring, believe me.

Of course the Commie hordes had been there, for real, something like 16 thousand Russians with thousands of tanks, and, of course, their loyal German lackeys, the National Volks Armee but the internal contradictions of their failed Marxist-Leninist faith had kept them so busy just keeping the lid on the East German populace that they never had the chance to duke it out with the West. Hey, militarily, they might even have won, but politically, they never had a chance.

I bet that modern Viet Nam has its own troubles that way too, people finally understanding what they have signed up for: working in Western-owned sweatshops for hunger wages while the fat cats of the Party skim the cream. Not something that should trouble anyone posting here, of course. God forbid!

[melmothtw]

It's chuks, Jane, not "chucks," but you can call me "Sir." (Attention to detail/not overlooking the bleedin' obvious: one of the marks of a well-trained journalist.)


Unlike yourself Chucks, HJ is writing in a language that isn't his mother tongue. You try to responding to him in Vietnamese and we'll see how your attention to detail rates.

[hanoijane]

chooks, Sir,

I think I'm going to hug you. C'mon over here you big softie. You're so sweet. For sure you need the man-hug thing.

The only scuttling I've been doing today is scuttling around M&S to try to find something tasty for my dinner. I settled on salmon in flaky pastry. Sound good?

I was skimming this a few days ago;

http://www.nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/~bradd/gabrieli_2004_nrn1323.pdf

and I immediately thought of you. It explains a lot. I actually started to feel bad about arguing with you. But the moment passed.

chaks, I would NEVER have guessed that you have, 'No idea what modern Viet Nam looks like', really I wouldn't. I'm pleased you feel that this complete lack of knowledge of the country is no bar to you expressing your opinions with an insight I find astounding.

In truth, I'm now convinced that on PPRuNe there's no real need to have any personal knowledge of anything. I can simply spout forth and hope no-one calls me on it. And if they do, I shall simply descend even further into rant-mode until everyone else shuffles off shaking their heads in wonder.

I think I should transfer my assets to the West. Clearly, Viet Nam is a seething cauldron of embittered shoe-factory workers just about to rise up in an Asian Autumn and hurl the beastly Communists from power. May I come live with you when this happens? I'll bring my own rice cooker!

chicks, please pass my kind regards to your wife. Lord knows, she has a great deal to put up with.

I hate ending sentences with 'with'. But sometimes they sound too clumsy otherwise.

melmothtw:

Thanks, but the original 'mistake' was deliberate :-)

[West Coast]

Jane chooses to converse in English and is subject to the same level of scrutiny as everyone else.

[AtomKraft]

Chippy

Thanks for your book recommendations. I think you're correct in your evaluation of MacDonalds book on Giap. It's very 'close' to the man in question.

For me though, that's the appeal of the book. It's what Giap thought. From his perspective- as he saw it. Not a completely objective account.

And lets face it, the main facts - ie, how the two wars turned out are old news now.

We all know how it turned out for the French, and the US.....

Although amazingly, there are some who seem confused! ;)

[hanoijane]

Truth to tell, West Coast, I enjoy the practice. Though I'm rather good at it already, aren't I?

[West Coast]

Jane

You're welcome to come to the US. Many of your countrymen decided they didn't want to live under a repressive communist regime and moved here.

The upside for a journo is the taboo subject of criticizing the government in Vietnam is allowed here. Just think, a whole new facet to your profession you can explore. Instead of a joining the ranks of others in the re-education camps, you'll make a good living by doing it.