One of your adversaries is missing...(merged)

[West Coast]

Jane, not sure what your referring to. If it's your English language skills, then yes you've mastered the language.

That is if you are who you say you are.

[hanoijane]

West Coast:

Thanks for the invite but I've already lived in America. I lived in SF, on Green, for about 6 months with a girl. It didn't end well for me, she ran off with another guy. This is the REAL reason why I hate Americans :-)

SF is a beautiful city. An amazing place to run - probably my favourite after Vientiane. I would run down Green onto Columbus, down to the bottom, then along and up that bloody hill by the park around the Fort, past the Marina and Crissy Field, up the steps to the bridge, then over the bridge into Marin, do a hilly loop, then return. Pretty much a perfect running route.

There was a little stationery store on Green where I was lectured for three hours solid by a lady on the Kennedy administration and how the world would have been a better place had he lived. The people in that city had such passion, whether it was over gay rights or letting their dogs **** on the grass. I loved them.

I find yelling at people in print (paper or digital) about politics to be counter productive if you're really trying to bring about change. Just look what happens on PPRuNe if you need evidence. If you and I sat together we'd learn things from each other and, perhaps, find some common ground. When people aren't face-to-face they simply repeat tired cliches and become obnoxious. Me too.

I'm paid - in part - to write, and I write to a market. It has nothing to do with my own views, which I prefer to keep to myself irrespective of where I live. I was here to obtain a certain perspective, which I did, and I'm happy to stay to have little chats, but not to defend a system in which I have no real interest against a system about which I care even less.

Now, may I tell you MIg stories, which you're free to disbelieve or admire as you see fit?

[West Coast]

Jane

If they're stories about MIG, mig or MiGs of the modern era, then feel free to regale me with your imagination. The Vietnam war ended when I was 8.

San Francisco would make any communist feel right at home, the culture there is quite repressive of anyone with differing political views. I'll bet you felt comfy alright.

[Pontius Navigator]

Now, may I tell you MIg stories, which you're free to disbelieve or admire as you see fit?

Please do. We discussed the 1 v 16 engagement but would love to hear more from you.

PS, for those that don't know, the engagement ended with only one aircraft damaged.

[hanoijane]

*sigh*

Why do you continue to be rude when I'm being nice? It's silly and reflects poorly on you, West Coast.

Pfffft, continuing here in the face of stupidity seems pointless.

Wholigan, please delete my account and ban anyone else from using my name. 'hanoijane' must forever remain a blot on your military aviation landscape :-)

HJ.

*click*

[chuks]

The best laugh I have had from people who visit modern Viet Nam came from the one who asked me if I had ever seen the tunnels at Cu Chi. I simply told her that they were closed to visitors the whole time I was there.... SASless might have been there in the background, grinning at that little joke of mine, but I don't think she caught my drift.

I had one of my profs ask me exactly what it was I did during my time there. I just told him that it was "top-secret," which it was, and left it at that. That it was boring, frustrating and relatively unimportant work... I guess I left that part out. Always with the jokes, there, me, but then, seriously, it often seems to come down to "You had to have been there."

That same lack of comprehension goes for Jane, perhaps, since speaking Vietnamese did not come into it for us, aside from a few, mostly rude, words. Perhaps it should have, but it didn't! Here, Jane seems to have failed to connect with much of the target audience before flouncing off in disappointment, assuming even that act is real. Migs... hmph!

[AtomKraft]

Come on HJ.

Lets hear it from you!

The 'usual suspects' on here are truly the least interesting to debate with, but we all love a good flying story...:ok:

I've seen MiG-21s flying at Da Nang and they looked great- the original 'stealth' fighter. Also seen them close up and they are a lovely design.

What did you fly?

[chuks]

Get me some of what that man is smoking! I want some!

I got a real close look at a Nigerian Air Force MiG-21, sat there parked on the ramp at Kaduna one hot day when I had hours to kill waiting for my pax. "Crude" is about the only word for its workmanship. A goddam F-4 looks like an oil painting by comparison to that!

"More Russian junk" was all I could think after walking around it, looking at all the panel mismatches, although I suppose it is an effective weapon, yes. To call it "lovely," though....

Just what sort of "stealth" qualities are you thinking of, anyway? Is it that it is relatively small? That's about the only one I can think of off the top of my head, because I don't think "low observability" really comes into the design of the MiG-21.

What part of that post from Jane expressing contempt for argument based on fact (#42, "Empirical evidence and all that nonsense," probably misapplying something grabbed from Kuhn) did you fail to understand? There are good flying stories, and then there are BS stories; try and guess which sort is going to be on offer from this particular source. Well, if it's something "stealthy" you are after, okay, or perhaps that just means "slippery and evasive," when some of us do not seem to be able to tell the difference.

[AtomKraft]

Oh Chooks, lighten up FFS!

As for the 'original stealth' ask someone from Fallon.

'Hard to see', 'tiny'. Almost impossible to see from dead ahead.

Like the F-4......:rolleyes:;)

[Lonewolf_50]

I've seen MiG-21s flying at Da Nang and they looked great- the original 'stealth' fighter.
No, not stealth. You need to learn what words actually mean. Like the F-5, a sound single seat fighter design. It was good for its time, and useful for many years after all over the world.

Also like the F-5, a small visual profile as you approach the merge in BFM.

What did you fly, Atom?

EDIT:
For those unaware, the original "stealth" weapons system was the submarine. This point was brought to you by a Navy veteran. ;)

[chuks]

I thought the original stealth weapons system was the Apache Indian warrior.

Very low observability, that one, way less than a submarine, particularly in the deserts of the American West. Not very good swimmers, though, the Apache Indians... there the submarine was found to be superior, yes.

[Lonewolf_50]

Nope. Camouflage and stealth are not identical attributes, although they are related to one another. Stealth takes the principle of camouflage and use of terrain (and whatever else) to "try not to be seen" and extends it beyond the visual fraction of the EM spectrum. LO adds to that in its efforts to reduce the IR signature, as does noise reduction.

The latter was an area of skill where your example shone. :ok:

[West Coast]

And tactics along with dynamic planning lest you get shot down in your 117.

[chuks]

Well, you forgot: fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope. Talk about "stealth," why, nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! Oh, wait... that's nothing to do with the military, is it?

The F-117 was trackable using a cell phone network, or so it was claimed at the time that one was shot down over the Balkans. So much for megabucks stealth, if that is so!

How many MiG-21s could you buy for the price of one F-117, anyway? "A whole lot," I guess... might be hard to find the volunteers to fly them against modern air defenses, though....

[Mach Two]

Bring on the MiG stories. I know a small handful of people here that will really enjoy verifying the credibility of your tales.

[Pontius Navigator]

How many MiG-21s could you buy for the price of one F-117, anyway? "A whole lot," I guess... might be hard to find the volunteers to fly them against modern air defenses, though....

How many is the key question.

If you are talking 'normal' numbers then indeed you are right. If, otoh, you equip your air force with more Mig 21s than you opponent can field kill kits then you win.

On 1v1 - you lose. On 2v1- you still lose. On 10v2 (with 20 missiles against 16) you may well win as one of your aircraft may be targeted by more than one missile.

I watched an AMCI engagement with 4v16. IIRC the furball finished with odds now 2v16 and none of the 16 fired a shot :).

[chuks]

The thing I am waiting to see is unmanned air-to-air combat aircraft. Being able to pull 20 G against a human opponent just seems so unfair, somehow, plus the darn things are going to be relatively cheap, and thus numerous. This is going to be like a Vickers Gunbus going up against a Fokker D VII. No, like a Vickers Gunbus going up against six Fokker D VIIs! I pity the fool....

We already have the US Air Force awarding medals to drone operators, so that air-to-air combat just seems to be a short matter of time. Want to bet the operators will wear ascots and big wrist watches? (I remember meeting some A-10 pilots looking all warry that way, telling me that this thing of theirs was, too, a fighter! I nodded and tried to look impressed. Well, we were calling our Twin Otter an airliner then, so who was I to scoff openly?)

[AtomKraft]

Chooks

I share your concern at awarding drone drivers medals- for what exactly? I mean, what's the worst thing that can happen? They knock their coffee over?

Mind you, the Navy awarded the Captain of the USS Vincennes a medal... which I thought was stretching it a bit.

[chuks]

I like the smooth way you dragged that stinker in out of left field. Mr. Subtle, take a bow!

I have no "concern" with drone operators getting medals. Heck, I got one just for joining the Army! Remember what Napoleon said, "With enough red ribbon, I can conquer the world!" Well, supposedly.... No, medals for all! All must have prizes! And big wrist watches too.

[AtomKraft]

:)

Sorry Chooks.

Sometimes, I can't resist myself....

[AtomKraft]

btw, It wasn't me that coined 'the original stealth' for the Fishbed- it was the folk who used to fight the ones that operated out of, shhhhh, you know where.

Don't forget, 'proper' stealth aircraft (ie low RCS) a'c are 30 years old now.

The 'original' stealth refers to ones 'you just couldn't see'- 'cos dem was tiny....

And non-smokin' :)

[parabellum]

One reason the MiG21 was hard to see was because it couldn't stay airborne for very long before it ran out of fuel!

[AtomKraft]

Para.

True, but the Lightning was never fat on fuel either.

And as an airspace defender....;) the MiG did well. Now, had it need to bomb...

Edit to add, the reason the MiG-21 was hard to see was because it was wee.

From the front, it must have been like looking at a beer barrel.

Thus, 'the original stealth!'

[West Coast]

Not sure what an "airspace defender" is. I categorize it as a point defender, as in its airfield.

[chippymick]

Well I can’t vouch for the veracity of the cutting about in MIG’s malarkey but I can absolutely guarantee that the man doesn’t have a doctorate in political science or economics.

How do I know?

I was invited by Hanoi Jane to “discuss trends in social and economic development in SE Asia” (http://www.pprune.org/8101547-post130.html) An area in which I have some small experience and something I proceeded to do on this thread.

Although specifically invited to discuss these matters I have not received a response.

There is not a political scientist or economist alive or dead who EVER walked away from a discussion he invited. Arguing is what we do. This turn of events is completely unprecedented, unheard of and certainly unique in the annals of internet fora.

It turns out that the most inflammatory aspect of HJ’s internet persona is his trousers.

[chuks]

Jane made a stab at dissing me by putting up a link to an academic paper about galloping senility or some such (missing the mark widely, since it's lunacy that has me in its grip).

He claimed to have just been reading that paper, something like that anyway, but nobody sits around "just reading" such things.

If you need to do research in some area, okay, you do read such papers, but I think Jane has an image of an academic as someone who sits in a wing-back chair wearing a smoking jacket and slippers, perusing weighty tomes while puffing on a meerschaum and sipping from a snifter of brandy.

Then there's Jane's claim of a doctorate in something or other, yet Jane scratches out a living as some sort of journalist, at least according to Jane. Well, I'm no expert, but I think that the average holder of a PhD can write to a better standard than Jane's. Then there is the way that if Jane's really a journalist, then it's one who seems unable to connect the dots, reduced to trolling here as a way to figure out which way the wind is blowing, and that according to Jane.

One minute Jane's camping it up, acting like some bitchy queen, but the next Jane's acting all serious... "Will the real Jane please stand up?"

Jane reminds me very much of a new acquaintance who told me that "The Mirage F1 is an old friend." That was a case of "Close, but no cigar," because within a few weeks I was told, by his previous boss, that it was Cherokee 140s, not Mirage F1s, that were his old friends!

I think this is mostly blue smoke and mirrors.

[Lonewolf_50]

Atom, what was it you flew?

[AtomKraft]

Lonewolf

The only time I've flown a mil a/c myself was aged 15 in WB958. You can look it up....

I'm a civvy pilot and ex Army- although it all seems a while ago.

Edit to add, I've no idea if HJ is man or woman, pilot or non-pilot.

I recognise a fellow wind up merchant though..:ok:

[Lonewolf_50]

Atom:

Your honesty is refreshing. :ok: Next pint's on me! :)

[Mach Two]

Has she gone? Oh, good. Can someone shut the door, please? Can't belive so many of you were drawn in. Thank God that's over.