Dealing with drunk passengers

[oxenos]

If a report in today's Telegraph is to be believed, the captain of an Easyjet flight from Malta to Mancester, on 26th September, left the cockpit, in flight, to try to calm down a drunken passenger.
I find it hard to believe that any captain would be stupid enough to do this. Even before 9/11, I would not have done so, on the grounds that if I got laid out by a drunk, the F/O would then have been obliged to land the aircraft alone. ( Yes, I know he is trained to do so, but it puts a lot of pressure on him- why put him in that situation without good reason? )
To do so after 9/11 borders on lunacy. Why do people think there is a bullet proof door to the cockpit?
What guidance, if any, do companies currently give on the subject?

[wiggy]

Must admit from what I read understood the confrontation with the captain happened on the ground.

What guidance, if any, do companies currently give on the subject?

Do you really expect an answer to that?

[Tray Surfer]

I read is as confrontation on the ground, after landing.

Seemed like a charming punter. Could think of nicer things to see with no kit on... But, there we have it... :D

[oxenos]

Report says:-

"Trouble reportedly began mid-flight when the passenger became abusive to fellow passengers and the captain left the cockpit controls to try to calm him down""

[A and C]

I have just had a look at the online version of the telegraph report, at no time does it mention the captain leaving the cockpit in flight or any action that boarders on an act of lunacy.

As the others have reported it would seem that the confrontation with the captain happened on the ground after the engines were shut down.

Are you sure that you are not letting the truth get in the way of a good story ?

[oxenos]

A & C
The on line report does indeed give a different version. My quote in post # 4 is verbatim from this morning's paper paper.
Can anyone clarify?

[superq7]

The Dork got Tasered brilliant !

[cyflyer]

It seems , according to this report, that he left the cockpit

VIDEO: Drunk easyJet passenger Tasered by cops after stripping NAKED and demanding to fight captain - Mirror Online (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/video-drunk-easyjet-passenger-tasered-2352531)

[Herod]

Quite possible the captain left the flight-deck AFTER shutdown. I've had to do that before, to try and defuse the situation while waiting for the police to board.

[sitigeltfel]

Should have tasered him while he was having the piss. :E

[Trinity 09L]

"Officers used a "dry" Taser, where the gun is held against a target. Police said he was arrested and got a fixed penalty notice", compared to avoiding a £4 rail fare and fined £300+costs :ugh:

[Wanabee,Gunnabee,Am]

I've spoken with the FO first hand. Apparently when tasered he pissed himself again.

[con-pilot]

got a fixed penalty notice

Well that will make him think twice before he does this sort of nonsense again.

The lady he was with, look less than happy with this guys actions and behavior. :p

At times I think that some airline passengers should be should be carried as my passengers were in the past. In handcuffs, waist chains and leg irons. :E

Starting with this guy if he rides on the airlines again.

[Rail Engineer]

compared to avoiding a £4 rail fare Railway fare evasion is not dealt with by means of a fixed penalty notice (FPN). It is dealt with under specific Railway Legislation.

Within defined areas a passenger without a ticket can be issued with a Penalty Notice which is additional to the fare to be paid, but not when attempting to travel without paying is involved. This is always Prosecuted. This Penalty Notice is totally different from a FPN in that it is a penalty for not having a ticket and is recoverable at Law as a civil debt. A failure to pay the fare itself is a Criminal act offence.

[tdracer]

I notice he was wearing an Oakland Raiders t-shirt - figures - Raiders fans have a reputation as rowdies (the Raiders are an American Football team, not to be confused with the football sport we call soccer).

BTW, for those of us on the west side of the pond, what's a fixed penalty notice

[radeng]

How do you differentiate between the drunk who boards, is polite to the CC, straps himself in and falls asleep for the rest of the flight, and the non-drunk who has been on an extended business trip, is extremely tired, completely sober and does the same? Both have probably missed the safety briefing.........

The rowdy obnoxious drunk needs ejecting - preferably in flight, but sadly, that's not allowed- but is the sleepy, quiet, polite-when-awake one a problem?

[Piltdown Man]

You have to base your decision on who to accept based on evidence. So if you board, stay quiet and possibly even ignore the very important safety briefing but make no trouble, you'll almost certainly make it to your intended destination. But have a carrot juice too many and play the idiot you should expect to be left behind.

The problem comes in flight and on the ground whenever passengers are on board. We are responsible for everyone on board and owe them all a duty of care. Therefore we must find a way of silencing, restraining or ejecting trouble makers a quickly as possible. Leaving the flight deck inflight is a bad idea but to leave it on the ground and play target, allowing everyone else to disembark may be a good idea.

But I have a question: Where is plod? I'd be squawking a hollering for the police for the whole time of the descent. So either nobody called them, they couldn't get past "security" or they were slow - which was it?

[Basil]

radeng, As, I'm sure, you know, it's an experience and situational awareness judgement (a gut feelin' call :})
You just hope they can hold their drink; and most people can.
Potbelly baldie was the exception. Hope he's bought her a big bunch of flowers :)

[crewmeal]

Perhaps Captains should be given taser guns. Now there's a thought!

[Green Guard]

..soooo you would give Capt. taser gun today, and real gun tomorrow, rifle after tomorrow...right?

left the cockpit, in flight, to try to calm down a drunken passenger. of course that Capt. was stupid. Swiss pilots will know about such an incident, where Capt. became immobilized...

to deal with drunk passengers (during flight) there is ONLY one way...GIVE HIM/HER MORE ALCOHOL...till he/she becomes immobilized....all other ways you play with fire

[kick the tires]

Green Guard: of course that Capt. was stupid.

You are the stupid one for believing everything you read in the papers!

I met the off going crew and saw the whole incident, the capt did not leave the FD, but I guess if you read it in the paper, it must be true eh?:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

The reason plod werent called beforehand was that the pax in question was only mildly kicking off in flight which was dealt with very effectively by a fantastic purser. It was only when he got to the top of the stairs did he flip his lid.

But what justice - having been tasered he fell in his own pi$$! :D:D:D

[Trinity 09L]

Rail Engineer, many thanks for the legal verbatim, it was only a comparison. If arrested and prosecuted properly as per rail fare evaders then an ASBO could be imposed restricting travel by air for two years.

[JW411]

That was one of the many joys of having a flight engineer. Sending him back with the fire axe in his hand usually brought about a fairly rapid result.

[sb_sfo]

They call themselves "Raider Nation" down here, and you wouldn't want to be stuck in a stadium seat, with your family, anywhere near them.

[Road_Hog]

[quote=tdracer]BTW, for those of us on the west side of the pond, what's a fixed penalty notice[quote/]

For all intents and purposes, it is an oon the spot fine = only courts can issue fines, which is whhy it is referred to as a fixedpenalty notice. Plus it is a fixed amount. You can refuse to pay it and then you will end up in a magistrates court.

It's an easy way to penalise people, without having to the expense of using a court, for petty offences, a bit like aa speeding ticket.

[con-pilot]

to deal with drunk passengers (during flight) there is ONLY one way...GIVE HIM/HER MORE ALCOHOL...till he/she becomes immobilized....all other ways you play with fire

Sorry, but that does not always work. Some people have such a high tolerance to alcohol that by giving them more, will cause the situation to become worse. By giving people like this more, can cause an 'blackout' episode where the drunk will have no knowledge of their actions to a point where all logical thought and any inhibitions to act like a normal person will be absent.

Most of the time, that is the worse thing you can do.

Now raising the cabin altitude to nine to ten thousand feet can be effective, but by doing that you run two risks, first being that you can harm the other passengers, secondly just as above, just make the drunk passenger drunker.

You also run the risk of making more passengers that have been consuming alcohol uncontrollable drunks.

The only way to really to control such people is to restrict them to their seats anyway you can, call ahead for police to meet the aircraft and not let the passenger in question loose until the police are on board and can take them into custody.

Or, as JW411 posted, send a rather large FE with the fire ax* back into the cabin to handle the situation. :p



* I flew with one FE that would not have needed a fire ax to handle anyone.

[cyflyer]

Because a fixed penalty notice is just a slap on the wrist for these people, now they want their cake and to eat it. They are now claiming police 'brutality'. Thats what you get for being too soft on them. Next, they're gonna be asking for compensation !

Naked easyJet passenger Tasered at Manchester Airport after was 'victim of police brutality', Robert Scheer's girlfriend claims - Mirror Online (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/naked-easyjet-passenger-tasered-manchester-2359600)

[bubbers44]

Over 15 years ago I had a Managua-Miami flight in a B727 and an obnoxious drunk kept pinching my Colombian FA's rear ends when they walked by and FAs said the retired military guy across the aisle said the guy said he had a gun in his bag. I went back, asked the military guy if this was the bag and he said yes. I took it and said he would get it back when he left the airplane. He still wasn't cooperating so had the FAs move everybody in the back five rows forward and made him change his seat.

I put him by the window in the back and I said if you cause one more problem I will land at the nearest airport and have you arrested. He laughed so I said do you know what that airport is? Havana, Cuba. If we land there Castro will kill you tomorrow. He quit smiling and I kept making PAs as we approached Cuba of where Havana was and he didn't move. Once in range of MIA called to have security meet us and he was deported the next day. I know threatening somebodies life is not standard procedure, but it worked. Also nobody else heard me. Sometimes you just have to do whatever works.
Now after 9/11 we can't do that.

[Yaw String]

Hoho..have shared this one before..

Recipe....

1/Increase cruise level to highest achievable.
2/Raise cabin temperature to around 28/30 for around 10-15 mins in
zone containing the inebriated one.
3/ check offending pax KO!
4/ take the floor for quiet applause from rest of pax!

P.s. result not guaranteed, but once worked for me,at 30W.:D:D

[Spunky Monkey]

There is only one way to deal with people like this...Divert.
As soon as possible and put into somewhere that is going to have rather unpleasant Police and will cost a fortune to get back from.

The German Police and legal system can be pretty harsh, or putting into an island like Sicily can be difficult for the moron.

Any extra costs should be sued for by the airline.
The passengers should be compensated say £100 per person per hour by the offender. (If they go bust then tough).
The airline should put them on a no fly list and all other airlines should be encouraged to do the same.

Air Rage would be a thing of the past PDQ.

However as incidents to get out of hand quite quickly because of a misunderstanding, then an alleged offender can be offered to move to say a row of seats at the rear of the aircraft.
That way he can show he has made an effort to also defuse a situation.

If they refuse and continue being disruptive, then divert time.

[ExSp33db1rd]

............having a flight engineer. Sending him back with the fire axe.......

Not a F/Eng. but as a S.O./ Nav the Captain asked me to wear his hat and jacket and go back to sort out an obnoxious, but not so drunk, pax. as we were taxying out for take off. After a couple of words with the pax I heard the power being applied as the crew started the take off roll, and asked the pax if he would rather I was back there arguing with him, or up front flying the thing ?

Collapse of stout party.

( of course, I had to quickly take a cabin seat for take off, so was unable to perform my flight deck duty of "monitoring" the Captain and Co-pilot in their take-off duties - big deal ! - that's what the F/Eng was for !! )

[bubbers44]

The nice part of having a pilot qualified FE meant the captain could handle the situation, not two new hires on probation trying to make it through the first year. They could be fired if the company decided he mishandled it and the captain has union support and won't if he mishandles it.

Now we have no flight engineers so things are different.

[Capt Claret]

to deal with drunk passengers (during flight) there is ONLY one way...GIVE HIM/HER MORE ALCOHOL...till he/she becomes immobilized....all other ways you play with fire

Somewhat contrary to the RSA (Responssible Service of Alcohol) principals, which might see the crew in more trouble than the offender in some jurisdictions.

[Bealzebub]

to deal with drunk passengers (during flight) there is ONLY one way...GIVE HIM/HER MORE ALCOHOL...till he/she becomes immobilized....all other ways you play with fire

I don't think so, on so many levels!

[Capetonian]

to deal with drunk passengers (during flight) there is ONLY one way...GIVE HIM/HER MORE ALCOHOL...till he/she becomes immobilized....all other ways you play with fire

This is possibly the worst solution. Before they become immobilized they can become violent and uninhibited. There are other ways to solve the problem, such as a sedative in their drink, or a strong and quick acting laxative ....... not pleasant for surrounding passengers but better than some of the alternatives.

[framer]

Is it legal to be drunk on an aircraft in the EU? Just wondering because if it's not then don't board anyone who is obviously under the influence. I know some will sneak through but it gets rid of a lot of potential trouble makers.

[bubbers44]

You can not keep giving him more alcohol to fall asleep because if he has an accident driving home the airline could be held responsible. That is how it works for bars.

[mikedreamer787]

I've only ever gone down the back to calm down a
drunken MATE who's wife just died in a car prang.
Total strangers no, and post 911 never anywhere in
European or USA airspace. I think that would be a
given.

[cyflyer]

There are other ways to solve the problem, such as a sedative in their drink, or a strong and quick acting laxative

And if that drunken slob also happens to have some medical condition that reacts badly to the administered drugs, and he croaks it on the flight, then someone is going to be guilty of manslaughter. Bad idea.

[baggersup]

I have a good friend who's an eJ captain.

I'll ask him about it; maybe he can shed some light (that isn't confidential).

[Capetonian]

And if that drunken slob also happens to have some medical condition that reacts badly to the administered drugs, and he croaks it on the flight, then someone is going to be guilty of manslaughter. Bad idea.

Then he shouldn't get drunk and disorderly. Sorry but I have no sympathy for anyone who willingly endangers the safety of an aircraft and its occupants. One less drunken slob to pollute the earth.

[on time all the time]

hi all,

The rule here is that no one should be drunk on board. That is the law.

Now the reality is different and one particular destination is problematic : Ibiza (night flying)

All airlines encounter problems. They all talk and exchange experiences to see if there are some trends and to try to find a solution to the never ending problems.

Airport are of no help as selling miniatures and small bottles of wines a knock down prices.
Bars in airport are too happy to make good money so they sale alcohol without restriction.

Airlines have talked to the police and they should be patrolling when Ibiza flights are scheduled. I did 2 of these flights recently from Birmingham and there was no police to be seen.

The CAA does not seem to do anything about it.

The problem for the crews is unless someone is totally drunk and can/is refused carriage, we have no means of accurately checking if someone has drunk too much.
In doubt we restrict the sales to certain individuals to just soft drinks. For the others it is more complicated as even if you restrict the sales to let's say 2 miniatures per person, most of them got some alcohol in the duty free shop they pour once our backs are turned.

That is the reason why some flights starting well, can end up being total mayhem due to the fact lots of pax have drunk their own alcohol.

There is a simple, easy solution. No alcohol for these flights ( a bit like football flights which have become so easy to operate), and a refusal in the terminal to serve alcohol. The weapon is the boarding pass. It is easy to check where people are going to.

But no one is taking that decision as making money is more important than the rest.
My airline allows us to stop/ not do services.

But until the CAA takes the reins of the problem and demand that the law is respected, we will carry on having this problem.

[PAXboy]

on time all the time Has answered the question. Money.

It is well known that ground staff don't want to challenge the possible drunk because of an unexpected violent response (physical or verbal). So they tend to let them board and pass on the problem. Perhaps if ground staff were still part of the airline they could enforce the rules? Not going to happen.

I came back from Denmark a few years ago with a VERY rowdy sports club that had won their fixture. Miserable flight for 85% of pax but no staff told them to shut up because they gave every indication of being capable of a lot more rowdiness.

It is similar to the excess hand baggage problem - don't stop the pax as they might harangue you and almost certainly delay boarding. So let them all get on board and hope for the best.

This was the exception that proved the rule. Sounds like CC and FC did a great job.

[Capt Claret]

I came back from Denmark a few years ago with a VERY rowdy sports club that had won their fixture. Miserable flight for 85% of pax but no staff told them to shut up because they gave every indication of being capable of a lot more rowdiness.

Many years ago a CASA (Aus Civil Aviation Safety Authority) Examiner of Airmen was on my flight deck for a surveillance flight. During the turn around he wanted to "speak" with the cabin crew. Not knowing the guy, nor having experienced this previously, I sat in to observe.

One of the questions he asked the CC was how they'd deal with pax misbehaving with regards to alcohol. The CC rattled off all the wisdom of the day. He ended by suggesting they consider if required, having the Captain make a PA advising pax that a return to departure would be required if they didn't behave.

I had great pleasure a year or so later when faced with the very same problem, to email the Examiner to tell him the "solution" worked beautifully. Pax we're misbehaving and not following instructions on what was supposed to be a dry flight. The instant I advised that if "drinking alcohol didn't cease immediately I would have no alternative but to turn around and return to the mine site" all the booze was put away.

If WE accept the behaviour because we don't want to divert, or be late, or inconvenience the majority of pax, to some degree we tacitly endorse the bad bahaviour.

[Agaricus bisporus]

If WE accept the behaviour because we don't want to divert, or be late, or inconvenience the majority of pax, to some degree we tacitly endorse the bad bahaviour.

Amen to that.

I am frequently surprised by tales of disruptive and drunken pax who the Captain decided weren't worth the trouble of writing a report over so they just let it go...

Own goal I'm afraid. The solution is in our hands if we choose (ie are Professional enough) to use it.

[MagnusP]

I saw two about-to-be-pax airside in GLA emptying two 500ml water bottles down the sink and refilling them from a litre bottle of duty-free vodka. About 05:00, as MrsP and I were heading for the gate for a flight at 06:00. No staff to be seen, and they'd buggad off before I could find anyone to warn. I felt sorry for the CC who'd have to deal with them.

[driftdown]

As long as there are airlines offering cheap tickets and then selling refreshments on board there will always be SLF preferring to "self cater".

Many do not understand the effect cabin altitude has on tolerance to alcohol or, in many cases do not care how miserable they make other pasengers flights.

[Heathrow Harry]

worst I ever saw was a mid-day flight from Schipol to Reykjavik

The SLF, almost all Icelanders, had arrived early and were getting totally slaughtered in a bar airside (men & women - anyone over about 15)- it was so bad that the security staff had corralled them in using bench seats so they had exclusive use of one bar. I questioned the security guy and he said "it was always like this - they get on the plane and pass out and as long as the booze flows at the bar they don't get rowdy...." :ugh:

[garpal gumnut]

Please excuse my determinist reply to the problem of drunk passengers.

I work in an environment where drunkenness is variably tolerated.

In the Emergency Department of hospitals it is de rigeur that an assessment is made as to whether a person is drunk or displaying symptoms of other illnesses.

In a breast augmentation clinic a drunk client would be removed by police.

It would appear to me that in aviation the airline staff are slaves to on the one hand to the airport corporations, the latter's interests being to intoxicate passengers for profit, and on the other to their employers whose interests lie in bums on seats.

I see no way out of this except a critical incident, or some simple advice to airline staff, to "harden up" and refuse embarkation to the intoxicated.

It is not an easy choice.

Then again breast augmentation is fraught.

[Una Due Tfc]

I had to divert a flight before because of a drunken passenger in Business Class. When the captain went back to try and calm the man he got headbutted. Flight landed at the local airport, man was in court within an hour or 2. His excuse? Mixing sleeping tablets and booze, claimed he couldn't remember a thing.

I had another one where the crew gave me a heads up that they may need to divert due drunken pax. Few minutes they called back saying there was an off duty cop on board, pax was unconscious and restrained, continuing to dest (about 7 hours away).

I always thought pilots were given cable ties to restrain violent pax? And are pax who cause a divert liable for extra fuel costs/handling fees etc incurred? Because they should be!

[Piltdown Man]

I always thought pilots were given cable ties to restrain violent pax?

We are, several pairs, and handcuffs too. But can you see the problem with that? The required equipment is on the wrong side of the door! In flight, the best tools to deal with this problem are mature, well trained cabin crew - who it appears were present when dealing with drunken oaf from Malta. As ever, the best way of handling these problems is prevention but that is easier said than done. However, Easyjet could do everyone a big favour and very loudly announce that this guy will never fly with them again. We also need a very public bit of litigation where a perpetrator is sued by an airline for the recovery costs of incurred. This should be a David & Goliath type event, but in reverse!

[pontifex]

Many years ago I operated a charter taking scottish rugby fans from Edinburgh to Cardiff and return. Two legs each way. They were "well away" on all sectors but they were the happiest, most well behaved, passengers I have had the pleasure to have on board. (Scotland won). Lots of singing but nothing too vile as they seemed to respect our female CS who, in fact, were happy to join in. I guess that was an exception that proves the rule because I have had a number of far less pleasant experiences.

[skot]

I always thought pilots were given cable ties to restrain violent pax? And are pax who cause a divert liable for extra fuel costs/handling fees etc incurred? Because they should be!

Pre 9/11 (probably in 2000) a colleague and I were on a Virgin flight from LHR to LAX, sat in the back.
A call went out for a doctor so we asked one of the CC what was going on - "First class passenger is kicking off so we're having to subdue him" :bored:

A few minutes later a guy is led past us with a blanket over his head and his hands ziplocked. Definitely an unusual situation!

Later on, I headed for the restrooms at the back and there's our guy spread across the four rear bulk head seats, strapped in with heavy belts and with his ankles and wrists zipped. A CC is sat beside him, on guard.
Later we were told that he'd been trying to snort coke off his seat table and got violent when they tried to stop him.


We were only two hours out of LHR at this point and we diverted to Iceland to get rid of him. Police came on the plane and carried him off.
According to the chatty CC, he'd be fined, have to pay the landing fees, takeoff fees, deice fees and fuel costs. And he was stuck on Iceland waiting for a boat as no airline would carry him!

The above was all gleaned from crew members but I'd be interested if anyone here had any recollection of this flight.

[Hotelpresident]

One of the best info (http://theangelsflight.org/) given from a doctor I flew with it was to give another shot to a drunk people. If you can not control it just offer another drop. It is like to give a shot to a drug people just with that you can control his/her mind and he/she will follow your instructions. Or even more at a certain time they will fall asleep so then the problem is fixed.

The only backside is that during the process the body can start to vomit any excess of alcohool.

[jumbobelle]

My trick with disruptive pax was to ask for their passports. I'd just keep them in the cockpit for an hour or so then give them back. No one ever refused and it's funny how quickly people buck up their ideas when you have their passports. A roundabout way of 'maintaining good order and discipline' but it works!

[foxcharliep2]

@ jumbobelle -

brilliant idea which I also found to be quite "sobering" the several times I had it done.

Asking for the passport and informing the culprits that police will be at the gate works. Keep the passport until landing - they'll behave.

[Captaintcas]

SOP in all airlines I worked for.
Smoking, drunk or disruptive pax: get their passports and keep them until landing.
If needed, pax. Information can be relayed to Police before landing.

They ALWAYS calm down, apologize and get afraid:}:D

[bubbers44]

My Managua, Nicararagua drunk who kept pinching my FA's butts responded quite well and quit grinning when I told him if he continued I would land in Havana, Cuba and Castro would have him killed tomorrow. I probably could have taken his passport but the succesful results were the same.

[Agaricus bisporus]

However, Easyjet could do everyone a big favour and very loudly announce that this guy will never fly with them again.
Smoking, drunk or disruptive pax: get their passports and keep them until landing.
give another shot to a drunk people.

All of which might well get you into as much trouble as the drunk. The first is probably not true and could be construed as a baseless threat, the second is probably not legal and the third is just insanely irresponsible.

You need to be absolutely punctilious about observing the law before taking action and I'd want legal advice from the company before trying the first two. The third would just cost you your job, I hope.

Just divert and have the police waiting.

[Eboy]

If the airline industry is serious about this issue, it will 1) require passengers to blow into a breathalyzer prior to boarding (takes 5 seconds) and 2) stop serving alcohol on the plane.

It the airline industry does not do these things, it is not serious about alcohol-related problems.

[flarepilot]

if someone appears drunk, do not allow them to board...that's about it

[Captaintcas]

Agraricus,

Of course it is legal to ask for somebodies passport when inflight as the Highest Authority onboard, the Legal representative of the Airline and highest authority of the State of Registration onboard

Passport details are even requested by the authorities before landing.

[Solar]

Flarepilot
Not sure about that, happened to me once where the CC informed me that the Cap'n' who watched me walk from the terminal to the top of the boarding steps was of the opinion that I was too drunk to travel. No I wasn't staggering or in anyway drunk ( I had two beers over the previous 2.5 hours). I asked why and was told that that was his opinion and that was that.
I was unshaven due to overnight travel, in shirtsleeves in winter due having returned from a very warm country, been away 3 months so fairly browned of, last on the flight due to the very helpful ground staff switching me to another flight at their instigation (I would assume the Cap'n would have been made aware of this) and this Cap'n decided to be somewhat precious for whatever reason.
Books and covers spring to mind.

[Aluminium shuffler]

It is legal to ask for someone's passport details, and the crew have the legal right to demand them, but it is illegal to confiscate a passport. Furthermore, what do you do when the passenger refuses to show the passport? Apart from calling the police to the aircraft on arrival, who sometimes refuse to turn up in my experience...

The best thing is to prevent drunks' embarkation, but you still face the problem of people getting drunk during the flight, either from onboard or carry-on drink. Of course, if safety was really aviation's no.1 priority, rather than making piles of easy money at the cost of safety, then alcohol would be banned from airports and aircraft cabins entirely.

[flarepilot]

solar...and I once saw a guy sitting at the airport bar, drinking, due to board my flight

he later fell of his bar stool

he did not board.


I suppose you could have told the captain you would be willing to have a breathalyzer test by the local police to prove your point...but he acted in the best interest of all.

and if you want to be treated like a VIP, look like a VIP...if you want to be treated like a bum, look like a bum.

oh, and I would say 2 beers in 2.5 hours isn't exactly sober...


everyone must remember that the higher altitude (cabin alt) does increase the effect of booze

[Solar]

Hi flarepilot
Don't know what my situation has to do with the guy falling of his stool.
Hard not to look somewhat bumish after traveling overnight and due to the efforts of the efficient ground staff getting me on an earlier flight not having time to freshen up.
The two beers were from the overnight flight and if you reckon two is enough to ban people from flying then the airline business is in for a lean period.
What would be the point of insisting on a breathalyzer standing at the flight deck door with a plane load of pax looking up at you.
I returned to the lounge, the ground staff were annoyed, told me to wait in the bar which I did, had another couple of beers and got my scheduled flight. Does that make me an alcoholic?
In this instance the cap'n was incorrect.

[dhavillandpilot]

Many years ago, flying an executive jet it was easy. The pilots on Oxygen and then wind the pressurisation up to around 12000 ft the drinks soon went to sleep and you cold then bring the pressurisation back to the 6000 foot level.

End result a peaceful I eventful flight and the passengers arrive unaware what has happened.

[flarepilot]

solar

it makes you more of an alcoholic than I am.

so, you are told you are too drunk to fly...


and the first thing is you have more beer.

no, the captain was right.

[flyboyike]

I returned to the lounge, the ground staff were annoyed, told me to wait in the bar which I did, had another couple of beers and got my scheduled flight. Does that make me an alcoholic?


No, alcoholics go to meetings, you're just a drunk. I would know, I was raised by a professional boozer.

[Solar]

Flarepilot
Seems your missing the point somewhat, nobody said I was drunk, the cap'n stated that he thought I was unfit to fly. I assume he based this on several misleading factors.
One: I was the last person out to the flight due to the check in staff from this airline asking if I wanted to travel on their earlier flight instead of waiting, after checking my ticket was transferable and that I had no checked through baggage they spoke on a handheld (presumably to the aircraft) and then let me board.
Two: I had been traveling overnight and in your words looked like a bum though I didn't set out to look like one and how you know what I looked like is another subject.
Three: I was wearing only a tee shirt (decent one I might say) in winter as this is they way I travel 90% of the time as I cannot abide coats and jumpers.

As I mentioned before if cap'ns all decide to ban people that don't in their eyes look correct there will be substantially few people on the airlines.

flyboyike
Sorry for your upbringing but to state that I'm an alcoholic cos I have a couple of beers waiting on a flight puts me in some esteemed company wouldn't you say.

[flarepilot]

solar

please see your own post number : 63

your words: happened to me once where the CC informed me that the Cap'n' who watched me walk from the terminal to the top of the boarding steps was of the opinion that I was too drunk to travel.


now, you are saying no one said you were drunk


hmmmmmmm.

[bubbers44]

I always tell my favorite bartenders for over a decade at our hangout Tiki bar to tell me if he feels I am needing a cab for my 3 mile ride back home. I just said call me a cab because if you think I am not safe to drive why would I question it because I was the guy drinking so how could I tell if I reached a certain level. He would know better than I even though I try to be careful to keep my 60+ years of no DUI's intact.

I don't know why this captain felt he was unfit to fly but on some connections requiring hours of waiting at the bar is usually where we spend our time and we try to pace our drinking but it is pretty boring to just sit at the departure gate for hours. No one has ever questioned us in decades of flying if we had been drinking.

One of our checkairmen on our previous airline was so drunk they needed a wheelchair to get him to the flight and he made it. Not saying it was good judgement but he got on as a passenger.

[Solar]

Flarepilot
Wasting my time I think.
Cheers

[MaxBlow]

...One of our checkairmen on our previous airline was so drunk they needed a wheelchair to get him to the flight and he made it. Not saying it was good judgement but he got on as a passenger....:D:D:D

[flarepilot]

wasting your time on pprune is better for you than wasting your time in a bar.

think coffee, not beer.

[jumbobelle]

If you give the passport back then by definition you haven't confiscated it...there nothing wrong with sending the No1 back saying "the captain would like to see your passport". If they don't hand it over you've lost nothing (though I've never had one refuse yet) and better that than let the stag do/drunk/drugged/angry situation get out of hand-you also have a legal duty to maintain order on board.

[Captaintcas]

Of course, it is allowed to ask for the passport of any passenger as Commander.
You are the highest authority onboard, AND the legal representative of state of registration.
However, you can not confiscate the passport. You obviously do need to hand over the passport to the authorities or passenger after the flight.

[skiingman]

flarepilot, quit posting about things you don't know anything about. You sound like a teetotaler. The worst sort of holier than though fact-free ignoramus.

Alcohol does about the same thing to you regardless of altitude. I say this as someone who has consumed a lot of beer well over your cabin altitude. I lived above your cabin altitude for a year; alas I was unable to become drunk any easier than I've been able to elsewhere.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/02/health/02real.html

Further, 2 beers in the better part of 3 hours does not make an adult male drunk. Even if its two really tasty locally brewed beers. It might make operating machinery unwise if you are smaller or the beers are on the strong side. Should be just fine for riding aeroplanes. :ugh:

[Pub User]

Captaintcas

You are the highest authority onboard, AND the legal representative of state of registration.

This may well be true, but it doesn't give you authority to do anything you wish, you still have to comply with the laws of your state of registration.

[flarepilot]

skiingman

you are right, I don't personally know about drinking! I don't drink, in my entire life I've had LESS than the = of 2 beers. And perhaps saying that it is easier to get drunk at ''altitude'' is an over simplification.

but I do know that I'm a pilot and the regulations are quite clear...if someone is intoxicated they are not to board.

I guess you are spending time in the great american west skiing and drinking...that gives you very little knowledge of anything except drinking and skiing.

when you can say your title is "captain" instead of "drunk", let me know.

[Escape Path]

when you can say your title is "captain" instead of "drunk", let me know.

That's quite a cheap shot isn't it?

Sweet Jesus, you must be a joy to work with if you're giving this man such a hard time for having 4 beers in about 2-1/2 hours (and that would be the less time it could have taken according to his story) to take a flight as pax! That's LESS than a beer per half hour. C'mon now, make some sense! I bet you've had pax in this situation or perhaps a tad more "intoxicated" :rolleyes:, and you haven't even noticed.

This is the real world, and not everything is black and white. Good night

[flarepilot]

nice to see so many drinkers sticking up for each other.


we have a campaign in our state reminding people that even a little ''buzz'' is the same as drunk driving.

things are black and white...at least in this department.

would you allow a flight attendant to have a beer just before flight?

how about the mechanic who worked on the plane...a beer before he started working on something?


so, boys, thanks for the attacks on me...I'll consider the source.

[Good Business Sense]

When someone kicks off in a small, narrow tin can full of people at 35,000 feet it is terrifying.... there is no where to escape to. It's an experience that leaves a mark.

I gave someone the benefit of the doubt early in my career and if was a case of never, ever, again and that tends to be the experience with many Captains.

[flyboyike]

nice to see so many drinkers sticking up for each other.


They're quite a fraternity. Well, they and smokers.

[DX Wombat]

I'm not too sure how to word this as I do not wish to cause offence but I wonder how so many drunks appear to be able to board an aircraft and why alcohol is sold on board or supplied with meals even, or more especially, to those suspected of being intoxicated. Surely it would make more sense to discontinue this practice wouldn't it? As for on board duty-free sales, as I understand it (sorry if I'm wrong) all duty-free is kept locked away so why not keep it locked up until just before landing when the law of the land requires that it remain so and perhaps issue the purchaser with a numbered token in order to be able to collect is or her purchase? Even better, have a depot/counter/collection point on the ground. For duty-free purchases made in the terminal maybe a locked locker could be supplied for the duration of the flight. Just a thought or two.

[FlexibleResponse]

dhavillandpilot

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Australia
Age: 62
Posts: 118

Many years ago, flying an executive jet it was easy. The pilots on Oxygen and then wind the pressurisation up to around 12000 ft the drinks soon went to sleep and you cold then bring the pressurisation back to the 6000 foot level.

End result a peaceful I eventful flight and the passengers arrive unaware what has happened.

Quite an interesting idea to starve passengers of oxygen until they pass out...

Perhaps even a little more interesting if passengers are frail or elderly with low blood oxygen levels or other passengers suffering emphysema or other chronic lung or heart diseases re-awake with some brain damage due to low oxygen levels or perhaps not re-awake at all?

[flarepilot]

flexible response


I suppose you might take a look at oxygen regulations and the post specifically saying 12,000ft


oh, and should someone with medical problems be drinking?

IF you are suffering from medical problems, a decent doctor would warn you about flying

and what if there was a massive pressurization problem...what would happen?


don't drink and fly.


One time a passenger showed up with a doctor's note saying she needed supplemental oxygen. We could not supply it. I called our medical team and they agreed and I denied her boarding.

flyboyike...you said a mouthful!

[Mac the Knife]

Passengers are subjected to so many indignities these days that a breathalyser before boarding wouldn't add much.

Anything over 0.05% and you can't fly (First Class excepted, 0.08% for Business Class).

Cut down on passengers, flights and thus global-warming.

I thought of it first!

:ok:

[MrHorgy]

My airline now has instigated a procedure where by passengers can be breathalysed at the gate, and if twice the legal drink drive limit or more they can be removed from the flight without further warning.

[ZFT]

Does your airline serve alcohol on board?

[Ozlander1]

how about the mechanic who worked on the plane...a beer before he started working on something?


German mechanics probably drink beer while they're working on the aircraft. :rolleyes:

[Escape Path]

nice to see so many drinkers sticking up for each other.

we have a campaign in our state reminding people that even a little ''buzz'' is the same as drunk driving.

things are black and white...at least in this department.

would you allow a flight attendant to have a beer just before flight?

how about the mechanic who worked on the plane...a beer before he started working on something?

so, boys, thanks for the attacks on me...I'll consider the source.

First of all, I'm not a drunk, I've never been drunk, I've never had a hangover, never had a DUI on my driver's license, and on every breathalyser test I've done, I've scored the same: 0.00%. I guess that doesn't make me a drunk.

Secondly, one thing is having a beer as a pax, and a different thing someone taking a beer on duty or before being on duty. Those two are miles apart.

Good to see you decided to make of this discussion a decent, adult one by calling everyone who had a different opinion than yours a drunk.

[flarepilot]

escape path...

I am a joy to work with, I don't drink anywhere near an airplane.

I didn't call YOU a drunk, I did say that drinkers seem to stick up for each other.


and boy aren't you sensitive, and making all sorts of statements about your record with drinking, proudly proclaiming breathalyzer results.

I've never had a breathalyzer test. Hmmm, why not?

[Lemain]

Why not breathalyse 100% flight crew every flight before and after flight? The cost would be trivial and there would be no imputation implied.

[Herod]

Lemain. If you want to penalise the many because of the mistakes of the few, why don't we insist that everyone has to have a breath test in their drive before taking the car out? Oh, and before leaving work to drive home, coming from the supermarket........

[Una Due Tfc]

Alcohol is not the issue, it's the behaviour of a tiny minority of people when they take it. I always have 2 or 3 whiskeys when flying long haul (assuming I don't have to drive when arriving), then promptly fall asleep, and I've never caused anybody any trouble. Some people are just violent, no doubt alcohol exacerbates this trait in them, but to punish us all by removing alcohol entirely is unfair. To those of you stating that you have never taken alcohol, I commend you, doubtless your long term health will be better as a result, but please don't harrangue the vast majority of the human population who use alcohol reponsibly

[Lemain]

Herod Lemain. If you want to penalise the many because of the mistakes of the few, why don't we insist that everyone has to have a breath test in their drive before taking the car out? Oh, and before leaving work to drive home, coming from the supermarket........ I don't want to penalise anyone and I'm as fond of a drink as the next man. It's already accepted that for all practical purposes the drink/fly limit is zero. You'd be mad to risk your career squeaking just outside a test when such a tiny amount is permitted in any case. So there is no penalty for flight crew. Just blow into the Intoximeter and away. It would remove all the nonsense and whispered comments about so-and-so thinking they smelt drink on the captain or FO. A huge gain for essentially zero loss and would pick up the tiny number who have become, sadly, out of control.

Testing all passengers or all car drivers is totally different. It'll probably come to that one day, but hopefully I'll be well and truly over the yard-arm by then :ok:

[josephfeatherweight]

flarepilot, you don't sound much fun to have a beer with... :}

[A and C]

In twenty years or so of flying passengers I have only had at tops two about two cases a year when a drunk passenger has been a problem and only one or two in that time have required any more than the drink being taken away.

Statistically the problem is not big enough to worry about until the day you are sitting next to the drunk idiot, then it becomes very personal.

I don't see any reason to change any of the rules and practices in the industry, we just need to enforce the rules that we have, the problem is that the quickest way for security staff to offload a problem is to load them onto the aircraft and shut the doors then it's not their problem unless they have over 100 mg of yogurt.

A long time ago my dad told me it was unwise to argue with idiots and drunks, unfortunately I have now had to add security screeners to that list.

[Dushan]

Here is one way go deal with a drunk...

Passenger?s drunken air rage foiled by police hockey team sharing same flight | National Post (http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/11/26/passengers-drunken-air-rage-foiled-by-police-hockey-team-sharing-same-flight/)

“The crew was quite surprised when we told them there were 17 police officers on the flight,” said Les Baylis, a Halton Police constable and member of Justice Hockey Canada, a recreational men’s team made up of Ontario police officers.

[deanm]

"unwise to argue with idiots and drunks, unfortunately I have now had to add security screeners to that list."

They're already included in one of the two categories you listed....!

[Gauges and Dials]

Beer can be 5%-8% ethanol or so.
Weak beer can be 3.5%
Sweet cider from Normandy can be 2.5%
That fruit salad that you prepared at 5PM before the guests arrived, and left on the kitchen counter, can be 2% by the time you serve dessert at 8:30.
A nice ripe peach, 1% or 2%.

Are you seriously going to claim that eating a peach renders one unfit to be a passenger on an airliner?

If no, then it isn't "black and white" at all, but, like all things in life, a matter of considerable nuance.

[Island-Flyer]

Here's how one airline in the US handled a drunk passenger after their diversion to Nadi:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-1VPCQbxTc

I'd imagine many companies also keep tiered blacklists for passengers that cause disruptions such that it requires a flight diversion.

[rab-k]

Such a black-list of a major British carrier, if it does indeed have such, was longer by some 30 names after just one flight back from the Caribbean a few months back.

Two families, comprising 30 individuals, were threatening to kill other pax and crew members. Sounded as though a wedding party returning home were in no mood to let the 'party' end before touching down back in Blighty, much to the annoyance of the other pax who just wanted some shut-eye.

All credit to the crew for defusing a nightmare situation to the extent that a diversion to the Azores was not required. Hope that plod had the welcome wagons waiting airside.

[Una Due Tfc]

I bet their homes are made of fibreglass and they have criminal records as long as I am tall

[charliemouse]

If your name is interchangeable with any number of "cousins" and you don't turn up at court you won't have a criminal record...

[ChicoG]

Rowdy expat touring teams drunken and crass behaviour came to a crunching halt in the Arabian Gulf a couple of decades ago, when a certain country's Rugby Team were deplaned on the tarmac on arrival, carted off to nick, and all fined in the morning for being drunk and disorderly.

:)

[Agaricus bisporus]

Ozlander, German mechanics used to drink beer while building their planes. Apparently they had beer vending machines on the Dornier factory floor in the early '90s.

[BayBong]

Look up the iata guide lines on how to handle unruly pax :
http://www.iata.org/whatwedo/safety/Documents/Guidance-On-Unruly-Passenger-Prevention-And-Management-1st-Edition.pdf

I understand that it is ALL UNDER THE PIC's ultimate authority on how to address the situation. Powers and Immunities bestowed upon them by the Tokyo Convention 1963 to assess and deal effectively with unruly passenger behavior on board.

Also, look up if the countries you are flying for participate in the Convention.

[rigpiggy]

from personal experience, a fire extinguisher upside the head. followed by a bit of duct tape, and a delivery to the local gendarmes. Mind you this was 15+ years ago, and the guy plead to a "disturbance charge" with no time and small fine

[Dairyground]

If your name is interchangeable with any number of "cousins" and you don't turn up at court you won't have a criminal record...


If you are arrested, then your photograph, fingerprints and DNA will all be recorded. If you don't turn up in court, that is a further offence, and if you try sending someone else in your place, then as a former cabinet minister and his ex-wife discovered, you could end up with six months inside for conspiracy to pervert the course of justice on top of any other penalty.

[Eastwest Loco]

The classic trick from days of yore with the F27 services out of Melbourne after the then VFL Grand Final is probably not legal now due to OHS etc.

The punters knew enough to shut up and board like lambs but often on climbout the noise level would start to build and get to the point of being even frightening for those travelling with kids, little old ladies etc.

Their trick was to increase the cabin altitude and temperature. Snoring their heads off in no time. Generally it worked a treat but I do recall one TAA F27 calling Company in DPO to call the King Island Police, diverting there and booting 25 passengers off to face the music from the waiting Constabulary who were probably not in the best mood being dragged out on a Saturday night. It was also school holiday period and it took 3 days for the last one to get home.

Probably not politically correct now:(

Oops - sorry - missed earlier posts re this. Skipped a page.