Essendon Airport Training

[aiming point]

A couple of questions if I may indulge please.
Am doing some preliminary research for a PPL and as part of getting some starting points was wondering:

1/ Is the training area out of YMEN the largest in Victoria for GFPT pilots, and can you also land at YBSS and YMMB once approved by your instructor as a GFPT pilot?

2/ If one chooses not to do the GFPT and focus only on the PPL, is it still neccessary to do the BAK etc, or does a pass in the PPL subjects cover everything?

Many Thanks.

[peterc005]

I think it will soon be a RPL rather than GFPT soon. My recollection is that GFPT must land at the airport then departed from.

YMEN may not be the friendliest airport for initial training. It's a fairly complex and expensive place to fly. Moorabbin or YBSS might be better options.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

BAK normally was a pre-solo requirement.

My experience for doing PPL out of EN was TOTAL immersion in the system. If you can operate out of class C then radio procedures carry no fear factor come the last ride with the ATO.

Ab-initio, you really need to do this at a non controlled aerodrome with an adjoining training area. Whilst it was pretty cool to depart a controlled aerodrome to do circuits at a MBZ (CTAF(R)) some twenty miles distant and then return, with all the adjoining procedures....just like a mini navex every time you go up...all this on a RPPL which is more than a GFPT...it all comes at a BIG cost. I feel you really need to weigh the costs of doing up to GFPT level at EN.

[peterc005]

Another hassle with YMEN is needing to travel a distance away from the airport for a lot of the training.

I keep hearing good things about the GA training out at Lethbridge if you don't mind travelling a bit further out west.

[aiming point]

"Another hassle with YMEN is needing to travel a distance away from the airport for a lot of the training".

True, the only upside to this I thought was, if for some reason there was a bit of a gap going from GFPT (RPL) to PPL, at least flying out of YMEN might be more variable, but you guys are right, that might come at too high a cost premium.

Thanks for Lethbridge suggestion, to be honest I haven't heard of them so will check out.

We are NorthWest Melbourne, but travel for good quality instruction and environment would I think be worth it, especially if costings are fair.

My not so short list so far is YMEN- Pearson Aviation, YMMB- Peter Bini's or MFT, Kyneton, PAC (Tyabb) and Lilydale. All different, and all with various advantages'

I know every-bodies needs and experiences will be different but it sure would be nice to get off to a good start and give ourselves the best chance possible to tackle it the right way hence the initial research.

Thanks a lot.

[Nomde plume]

BAK is a prerequisite for the PPL exam. Don't hold your breath though, RPL is going to shake the nest a bit.

[Nomde plume]

A GFPT only allows you to fly, subject to authorisation from an instructor; in the training area, the most direct route to or from the training area, or a route authorised by the instructor (I.e. Solo nav/cta training). you can't land at an airport just because it's in/on the way to the training area.

[TOUCH-AND-GO]

Flying out of Essendon is challenging. However once you familiarise yourself with the Class C procedures, you'll be just fine.

Answer to your questions;

1) No. Once you've obtained your GFPT out of Essendon you're allowed to fly to and from the associated training area/airfield and back.
For example if you wish too choose to fly out of YMEN, I personally and highly suggest Pearsons Aviation. They use Point Cook as their associated training area and airfield for circuits.

2) Yes. It is still necessary that you complete your BAK Exam before you may progress to first solo.

If you choose to fly out of YMMB. Both MFT and Peter Bini's are good flying schools. Just note that Peter Bini's usually train more for initial Multi-engine endorsements and CIR.

P.s Forgot to mention that if you wish to fly out of YMEN with Pearson's they don't charge you a landing fee into Essendon.

PM If you have any further enquiries!

Cheers T&G
:ok:

[aiming point]

you can't land at an airport just because it's in/on the way to the training area

Right I see thankyou that does help a lot.

Might have to wait and see what these new RPL changes are all about.

By the way, does anyone know, does an Integrated CPL have to be commenced and committed to from hour zero, or can someone move onto the Integrated CPL and get credit for previous flying eg if one has already attained a PPL and is keen to proceed commercially or are you now restricted to the min 200 hours pathway?

Appreciate your time.

[Nomde plume]

RPL differs from a GFPT in that it's a licence. You won't need to be signed out every time you fly and you can do things like signing the maintenance release, etc. it is almost identical in privileges to an RAA pilot certificate. You are still subject to 'endorsements' to fly outside the T/A, in CTA, etc.

[TOUCH-AND-GO]

By the way, does anyone know, does an Integrated CPL have to be commenced and committed to from hour zero, or can someone move onto the Integrated CPL and get credit for previous flying eg if one has already attained a PPL and is keen to proceed commercially or are you now restricted to the min 200 hours pathway?


If you've already commenced flight training and have obtained either a GFPT or PPL you're restricted to doing the 200 hour CPL course.

Best of luck aiming point!

T&G

[Nomde plume]

Don't be too worried about having to do the 200hr CPL. A lot of integrated students bust the 150hrs substantially. Remember these are minimums, you don't get the licence purely because you've paid for the hours. Take the responsibility yourself to ensure you're meeting the desired standard for both flying and theory, and you'll find things will happen just when they're supposed to. An extra 50hrs in the logbook is not a bad thing. Only downside is GST.

[aiming point]

You guys have been legendary, and in quick time too thanks.

Helped a lot, so I'll leave you in peace! Feel I can better move forward now.

Cheers.

[Nomde plume]

Good luck! Any more questions feel free to PM

[Flying Ted]

Hi AP,

I think you have most of the information you need in the posts above.

I did my training with Pearson's at YMEN and was very happy. While they don't charge landing fees separately it is built in to the hourly rate. So I think you will find their rates are higher than you might find elsewhere.

For me, it was easy to get to. 15mins to drive to YMEN compared to 45mins for YMMB and probably 50mins YLED (one way). Particularly useful when you find you have taken the keys home with you.

The big thing about training in Class C is that the procedures become second nature. So while I'm still relatively low time I'm not phased flying through TCAs.

Cheers Ted. (PM if you have any other questions about Pearsons.)

[peterc005]

The Lethbridge GA school is run by Jeremy Miller and I think it's called Skythrills now.

Jeremy is now President of the Aerobatic Club Victorian Chapter and very well regarded.

My guess is that Lethbridge would be a heap cheaper and a more friendly place to fly.

Other schools at Moorabbin like MFT, Binies and MFS are also well regarded.

[43Inches]

2) Yes. It is still necessary that you complete your BAK Exam before you may progress to first solo.

As far as I know BAK is not required for first solo, there may be a small pre-solo theory exam, the BAK is required for GFPT.

2/ If one chooses not to do the GFPT and focus only on the PPL, is it still neccessary to do the BAK etc, or does a pass in the PPL subjects cover everything?

You can skip a separate GFPT and BAK if you do the PPL theory and test, however the test will be longer and you are constrained by the pre-GFPT flight time limits for solo until you pass your PPL. You can skip the PPL theory exam and flight test if you intend to progress to a CPL, however the GFPT along with BAK is required to allow reasonable solo navigation exercises.

By the way, does anyone know, does an Integrated CPL have to be commenced and committed to from hour zero, or can someone move onto the Integrated CPL and get credit for previous flying eg if one has already attained a PPL and is keen to proceed commercially or are you now restricted to the min 200 hours pathway?

This can be a complicated question depending on how many hours you have already whether it is worth worrying about it. Best to have a long chat with a CFI who can guide you. If you have to do the 200 hours use the additional time to do ratings or endorsements that you think you may need. You can undertake training for an instrument rating as part of the hours for example.

[Nomde plume]

43 inches you are correct, no requirement for BAK for first solo. Usually a 20 question multi choice test that checks you have a slight idea about what you are doing. Don't know of anyone that has ever failed this after giving study a passing thought.

Additionally, there is no requirement to do a GFPT for solo navex or PPL test. if that is the case, GFPT items are included in the PPL flight test.

Of course all of this may change come December.

[Jack Ranga]

You'll find Lethbridge is a bit different, you'll actually learn how to fly out there, stick and rudder, tail wheel right from the start if you want. You're in the training area as soon as your wheels leave the ground, no f@cking about. Oh yeah, formation Friday's :ok:

[DH164]

My favourite part of doing my tailwheel endo at Lethbridge was phase 9.

[43Inches]

Additionally, there is no requirement to do a GFPT for solo navex or PPL test. if that is the case, GFPT items are included in the PPL flight test.

This is correct legally but you would only be able to fly one useful NavEx and then have to do a dual flight due to the pre-GFPT hour limitations (3 hours solo maximum between dual).

[Nomde plume]

If you read CAR 5.84 it states:

(3) For the purposes of paragraph (1)(b),
the flight time must include 1 flight of at least 150 miles, that includes at least 1 full stop landing at, and at least 1 take‑off from, each of 2 or more aerodromes:
(a) that are not the aerodrome from which the flight commenced; and
(b) that are not within the student pilot area limit of the aerodrome from which the flight commenced.

No requirement for 3 hour flight time. Perhaps you refer to the night VFR requirement?

[43Inches]

Caught me half way through editing the previous post for relevance. I wrote half the response and realised it was aimed at a CPL situation not the PPL as per original post.

[Nomde plume]

I do not, by the way, recommend bypassing the GFPT. Just showing that it can be done. I find this useful for people converting from ultralights and the like to meet the standards for issue of a PPL. Particularly as glider, RAA and helicopter solo times count towards the requirements.

[Nomde plume]

I get where you are coming from though it does make it tricky (for instance if a student has to divert and exceeds 3 hours)

[TOUCH-AND-GO]

As far as I know BAK is not required for first solo, there may be a small pre-solo theory exam, the BAK is required for GFPT.

Apologies lads! 43 inches is correct. I forgot too clarify that our flight school which I trained at, had it as a requirement which needed to be completed, before attempting first area solo.!

T&G

[rnuts]

Bacchus Marsh flight training may be worth consideration for you as well.
I trained there many years ago so can't tell you what it's like now.