Employment opportunities outside Singapore

[Mark_SG]

Good day all,

I've been trawling through the forum to find any information I can get about Singaporean citizens finding work abroad with a CAAS CPL/IR, minimum hours and no rating.

Most snippets of information however, seem a little dated and hence, am posting this in hope for more current information pertaining to job opportunities abroad, be it instructing, bush flying, mail runs in any part of the world.

I don't expect prospects to be very optimistic, seeing how many reported unemployed pilots there are in the EU / US, etc. Getting a visa for work is as unlikely as finding work here.

Any information will be greatly appreciated!

[smiling monkey]

There are a few Singaporeans flying in Indonesia with various airlines and Susi Air but they got in before the '250 hour on type' rule. Your best bet is to try the part 135 operators like Susi Air as the 250 hour rule doesn't apply to them. Other countries have strict labour laws that prevent non Citizens and non residents from working there so that leaves very few options. On the other hand, I've heard of Singaporeans getting a start at Tiger through contacts so being able to network is a key factor. Good luck.

[Droste]

I've been trawling through the forum to find any information I can get about Singaporean citizens finding work abroad with a CAAS CPL/IR, minimum hours and no rating.
If all Singapore air-operators did not accept you, you are in ****. With CAAS CPL no hours can't go anywhere. The local pilots employment issue never resolve. Read first 100 posts [click (http://www.blowingwind.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=38510)].

Most snippets of information however, seem a little dated and hence, am posting this in hope for more current information pertaining to job opportunities abroad, be it instructing, bush flying, mail runs in any part of the world.

These jobs reserved for their own nationality citizens. Singapore Government is not doing good enough.

1. Malaysia. Must be a Malaysian Citizen. Too many pilots
2. India. Must be Indian Nationals and too many pilots.
3. Thailand. Must be a Thai Citizen.
4. Vietnam. Must be a Vietnamese. No way to get in.
5. Hong Kong. Must be a Hong Kee to secure an interview.
6. Taiwan. Must be ROC Citizen.
7. Indonesia. Low timer might get in. Not easy as it used to be! Priority for Indonesians.
8. China. Mainlander Chinese get in easy!

Where can you go with CAAS IR?

[Nimas]

Singapore is applying the ICAO Article 32b of the annex for Singaporeans :)

"Each contracting State reserves the right to refuse to
recognise, for the purpose of flight above its own territory,
certificates of competency and licenses granted to any of its
nationals by another contracting State".

[duyen]

where did u get a caas cpl/ir btw? as far as I know Singapore will not issue you with a CPL/IR if you are not employed by an airline in singapore

[Mark_SG]

Thank you all for your replies.

Droste, yes, that was what I was afraid of. I find it a little disheartening that the government here doesn't seem to be doing enough to protect jobs for the locals. If everyone else is doing the same, where does it leave the Singaporean pilots?

smiling monkey, I'm currently in university and I reckon getting into Tiger / Jetstar Asia's ab initio programmes without a degree would be pretty difficult. I'm hence exploring the alternative, which is to attain a CPL privately and find some way, any way, to build sufficient hours to be even considered by them. If this option is not viable, I'd probably complete university and then hope to get picked up by an airline into their ab initio programmes.

Nimas, I'm afraid I can't find any more information about that. Mind telling me more?

[Nimas]

Hi Mark.

The CAAS CPL/IR is just like any CPL/IR for that matter, the basic requirement for a flying job. The added advantage here is that you can get a job in Singapore if you are successful to be employed locally. Failing which, even with a CPL/IR, you will face employment issues overseas due to resident status and the lack of flying hours/experience and not because of the quality of the CAAS licence.

Will be good that you finish your bachelor degree 1st. This gives you a baseline in case the SG airline does not shortlist you or if you are in but "sway" and got terminated for whatever reasons. And you will also need to plan beyond flying if you can't fly for a living in the future.

For the ICAO annex I've posted, it is related to what Droste had linked in the flow chart with regards to Singaporeans converting to CAAS licence from a foreign state licence.
"Each contracting State reserves the right to refuse to
recognise, for the purpose of flight above its own territory,
certificates of competency and licenses granted to any of its
nationals by another contracting State".
CAAS is exercising it's rights to refuse recognition of foreign licence by Singaporeans. That's my interpretation of the ICAO Annex.

Try the cadet or even the airforce route 1st. That should be Plan A. You can plan to get your flying qualification (Plan B) if Plan A fails BUT you shouldn't go ahead with A thinking you have a Plan B, you will lose focus.

Plan B is not for everyone. Financially and mentally, especially mentally..

[Mark_SG]

Ah, I see. Yes, I do plan on staying in university. If I happen to be accept by an airline I might consider dropping out.

The Air Force is a closed door unfortunately due to physical restrictions. I've exceeded the maximum height limit. :ugh:

With regard to license conversion, I don't think I'd have much problem there because I probably would only go for a CAAS CPL.

[CodyBlade]

Read the thread: "Singaporean self-sponsored CPL..."
get an idea of how tough it is for these guys -even writing to the minister didn't help!

Some have taken the initiative and signed for exciting times at Susi just to get in the game [PNG mountain flying is great for SA]

My advice.. finish Uni then access your options.

Fact: Walk-in for interview with your degree,zero hours, but with lots of enthusiasm has shorter odds than even an FATPL,250hrs.

Wanna to know why? read the thread.

[wonderland]

When I was out training in Melbourne a few years back, ran into about 5 singaporeans who were training with several different uni programs, RMIT, and swinburne. As of today, they could'nt get jobs as pilots, because the Australians won't hire them as they cannot get the right to work in Australia, and back in singapore because the CAAS won't recognise their licenses. Yes, they have the options of joining Susi, or some P2F scheme, but sadly these guys ran out of money. One works at a car dealership, the other went back into his daddy's business, and the last one works at some crappy flight sim for kids place.

If you want to get a a flying job in singapore, it's a cadet program or the air force.

[glideapproach]

The CPL/IR route is risky and fraught with obstacles outside of your control, compounded when you hold a licence of a country you have no right to live/work in.

I agree with the sentiments expressed here by many others: cadet scheme sponsored or otherwise, or the air force. For CPL/IR, be prepared to dig really deep when things do not work out.

[Droste]

Read the thread: "Singaporean self-sponsored CPL..."
get an idea of how tough it is for these guys -even writing to the minister didn't help!
Agree with CodyBlade. I pity those brave guys. The million dollars salary civil servant (picture (http://therealsingapore.com/sites/default/files/field/image/20070410_Lee-Hsien-Loong_0_2.jpg)) does not care.

There are many poor Singaporeans holding foreign license who are unable to convert CAAS license and this gentleman (picture (http://www.straitstimes.com/sites/straitstimes.com/files/20130831/TanChuanJin3108e.jpg)) is not doing job for local pilots/citizens. Can somebody (parents or wife or yourself) please send him continous reminder through facebook messaging [click (https://www.facebook.com/TanChuanJin1)]? Certainly must 'squeeze' him before GE 2016, so that he can feel that there is a huge pool of negelected local jobless pilots (including those who are unable to convert license). Otherwise, keeping silence is not going to help.

When I was out training in Melbourne a few years back, ran into about 5 singaporeans who were training with several different uni programs, RMIT, and swinburne. As of today, they could'nt get jobs as pilots, because the Australians won't hire them as they cannot get the right to work in Australia, and back in singapore because the CAAS won't recognise their licenses.
At least, Australian Government is protecting their citizens in terms employment. In fact, most countries are protecting their own citizens' interest.

Singapore Government wants to be number one in the world and jobs must attract tip-top overseas researchers and attracting foreign investors. Thererfore, job employment for foreigners is must to sustain the economic labour growth and that is the price of being number 1 and a powerful A.S.E.A.N leader.

Nonetheless, other countries are willing to convert foreign license for their own citizens without much hassle. However, Singapore does not work that way in favouring their citizens. No wonder more Singaporeans fed-up with Government.

Yes, they have the options of joining Susi, or some P2F scheme, but sadly these guys ran out of money. One works at a car dealership, the other went back into his daddy's business, and the last one works at some crappy flight sim for kids place.
Yes. I have seen many.

Being a Singapore Citizen is nothing special/outstanding comparing between a permanent resident or foreigner. Local pilot job opportunities are not protected for their own people.

If you want to get a a flying job in singapore, it's a cadet program or the air force.
I agree.

The CPL/IR route is risky and fraught with obstacles outside of your control, compounded when you hold a licence of a country you have no right to live/work in.
I agree.

[training wheels]

I know a few former SFC instructors (Australian nationals with CASA licenses) who were able to convert their licenses to the CAAS equivalent. They are now flying with Silk Air. So this suggests that it is possible to convert a CASA license to the CAAS but I guess there must be a stipulation on minimum hours before this is possible.

Is this correct? And if so, then what are the minimums?

[mynameisjon]

A little research (http://www.caas.gov.sg/caasWeb2010/export/sites/caas/en/Regulations/Safety/Singapore_Air_Safety_Publications_SASP/SASP_Part_2_Licensing_of_Professional_Pilots/SASP2_Issue8_Amendment4.pdf) might do you some good :)

200 total time
10 hours night
35 hours multi
100 hours PIC (of which only 15 can be PICUS)
50 hours x-country (one 300NM flight)
40 hours instrument (5 can be sim)

That and 14 ATPL papers.

Just those I remember off the top of my head.

Conversion is entirely possible, but only if a local outfit is willing to sponsor your conversion.

Catch-22. Low chance of your resume making it pass the inbox without a CAAS license but the only way to get a CAAS conversion is to get pass the inbox.

[training wheels]

A little research (http://www.caas.gov.sg/caasWeb2010/export/sites/caas/en/Regulations/Safety/Singapore_Air_Safety_Publications_SASP/SASP_Part_2_Licensing_of_Professional_Pilots/SASP2_Issue8_Amendment4.pdf) might do you some good :)

That and 14 ATPL papers.

Just those I remember off the top of my head.

Nah, that doesn't sound right. They told me they only had to sit 3 papers; HPL, Air Law and Performance. But thanks for the link, I'll check it out.

[training wheels]

From the above document, On page chapter 12-6, section 16, you're exempted from the 14 ground theory examinations, except for Air Law, HPL and Performance if you meet the following stipulations;

--------
16: Notwithstanding 15, an applicant for a CPL(A) who does not meet any one of the following requirements shall be required to pass the theoretical knowledge examinations:

(a) At least 700 total flying hours as pilot of aeroplanes
(b) At least 200 hours as pilot in command of aeroplanes
(c) At least 10 hours flying cross country at night or by sole reference to instruments
---------

So, if you meet any of the above, then you don't need to do the ground theory exams except for those specified in paragraph 15 (Air Law, HPL and Performance).

And from section paragraph 15, you may be exempted from the Performance exam if you have more than 3000 hours of which 500 hours is on multi-crew type aircraft.

Which leaves only Air Law and HPL exams required for the conversion from a foreign ATPL to a CAAS ATPL, if you meet the above stipulations.

[wonderland]

Air Law is a killer. Common for people to fail it 3-4 times before passing.

[mynameisjon]

14 papers assumes you're in the situation most local guys who went the self sponsored route find themselves in. 200 hours and a CPL.

So I'd say just assumed you're gonna have to take 14 papers. Assume the worst and you'll always be prepared for whatever comes.

[training wheels]

14 papers assumes you're in the situation most local guys who went the self sponsored route find themselves in. 200 hours and a CPL.

Well, thanks for highlighting that, but I assumed the original poster was asking about gaining hours outside of Singapore so that he won't be in the position of having only 200 hours when he converts his license to the CAAS CPL/IR or ATPL.

The initial target for the original poster then is to aim to have 700 hours TT with 200 hours in command (of which 100 can be PIC/US) and 10 hours night or IFR cross-country, and from there, he can then narrow the type of operations he should be seeking.

A realistic possibility for the type of operation that such experience can be gained is in part 135 operations in places like Indonesia where some Singaporeans are already working (some are even in part 121 operations and others in 141).

[Droste]

I know a few former SFC instructors (Australian nationals with CASA licenses) who were able to convert their licenses to the CAAS equivalent. They are now flying with Silk Air.
I knew who are they. In fact, I knew who passed and signed their CAAS license for them.

So this suggests that it is possible to convert a CASA license to the CAAS but I guess there must be a stipulation on minimum hours before this is possible. Is this correct? And if so, then what are the minimums?
May I not answer this question? Let me share some issues.

I am sure everbody knows about the Australia's employment right typically in aviation industry. the Australian Government only allow the air-operator (in this case, Singapore Flying College), hires Australian or Aussie PR and they strictly do not issue work visa to anybody (including Singaporeans) to work as Flight Instructor. Isn't it great that the Australian Government is doing a good job to protect their local pilot employment?!

Anyway, the Aussie flight instructors in SFC are given 100% priority to join SIA/Silkair after they finished their contract. There are a few reasons why SFC did this.

For these Aussie flight instructors doing CAAS license conversion is a piece of cake. They are required to take CAAS Air Law plus a few papers and that's about it. They trained silkair/SIA cadets and meeting with the in-house examiner all the time, hence, it is extremely difficult for them to fail in license conversion. Furthermore, the in-house examiner has the authority to assess since he is highly paid by SFC. See chart [click] (http://d.pictureupload.us/1161410069525623b1035c6.jpg).

For Singaporeans holding CASA license (or other foreign licenses) is a terrible nightmare to undergo license conversion. Any Singapore Citizen (and foreigner) is not allowed to convert their license unless a Singapore air-operator willing to hire him/her. On the other hand, Singapore air-operator only hire applicant holding CAAS license. This is a very good catch-22 example, whereby, how to expect an applicant to get hired without license converted?

I knew many Singaporeans holding foreign licenses with beautiful hours but it is tough for them to be employed by local air-operator. CAAS license conversion is a torturing, painful and expensive process (especially to Singaporeans holding foreign license). Singapore is the first and only country in the world that make it impossible for their own citizens to convert license. I suggest poor jobless Singaporean pilots should call "Gov't hotlines (http://e.pictureupload.us/119955315852567acb9691c.jpg)" , afterall they are being paid to solve problem.

There were a handful of pilots slipped through the net and license was successfully converted without meeting the CAAS minimums. For your case, self-funded to get CAAS license converted is very difficult.

[rotatejunkie]

So Droste,
What are you getting at?
Are u pissed that Aussies r getting in sg workforce?
Or CAAS licensing is having double standards?
Too many words but little understanding mate...
Either way, what issues are you refering to?

[dream747]

To the OP, the official documents do state that to convert a foreign license to a CAAS one, besides all the hour and syllabus requirement, it states that "the applicant shall demonstrate the need to hold a Singapore professional pilot license; and, such demonstration may be a letter from a Singapore operator, approved aviation training organisation or flying indicating prospective employment in a flying capacity."

So the main issue is about getting a job with local operator. I guess it's commonly agreed by now it is very difficult, if not impossible to secure employment elsewhere without holding that country's license and having the right to work and live there. Even if you could, to secure employment with a local operator like Tiger or Jetstar requires you to have the relevant ratings and experience on type. To get a job overseas is already difficult, let alone getting an A320 opportunity in this case.

I think the best or prudent way would be to try and qualify for the cadet programmes, which would almost ensure your employment after you complete the course. If this fails, possibly consider getting a CAAS license for a start?

[lingdee]

We have graduated sine 2009 and out of 24 in our batch, 1 got in jet airways and 1 indigo with the rest of us still jobless till today. But we have one senior who got in Sq as a cadet.

[dream747]

It is very unfortunate that many of the guys who got their licenses outside of Singapore cannot secure a job back in Singapore itself. Conversion is a problem and getting a job with a local operator is also a problem.

As I have come to understand, from CAAS' perspective as a regulator, it is necessary for a candidate to go through a 'proper' CPL course, one which is approved by CAAS by their own regulations and requirements. A course that is approved by CAAS would be audited in terms of the training methods, training standards and course structure. The point is, having a CPL is not enough, you should obtain one through this 'proper' means that is acceptable to the authority.

Referring to the point Droste made with regards to local operators hiring only pilots with 200 hours with CAAS licenses, they are making the point that if you have a CAAS license, you'd have gone through a course and training standards that's acceptable to CAAS.

That said, where and how you get your license is important. It's the same for other countries like Europe, for fresh CPL holders to get a job with Ryanair, easy jet for example, they have to come through approved courses which are what CTC and CAE for example are providing.

[Droste]

... ...flying indicating prospective employment in a flying capacity.
So the main issue is about getting a job with local operator. I guess it's commonly agreed by now it is very difficult, if not impossible to secure employment elsewhere without holding that country's license and having the right to work and live there. Even if you could, to secure employment with a local operator like Tiger or Jetstar requires you to have the relevant ratings and experience on type. To get a job overseas is already difficult, let alone getting an A320 opportunity in this case.
You are absolutely right. "No employment, no conversion."

I think the best or prudent way would be to try and qualify for the cadet programmes, which would almost ensure your employment after you complete the course.
"almost ensure" - this is the key word that I am looking for.
There are self-funded guys with CAAS license who did not get into local air-operator.

If this fails, possibly consider getting a CAAS license for a start?
S$300K is big gamble for newbie to start.

As I have come to understand, from CAAS' perspective as a regulator, it is necessary for a candidate to go through a 'proper' CPL course, one which is approved by CAAS by their own regulations and requirements. A course that is approved by CAAS would be audited in terms of the training methods, training standards and course structure. The point is, having a CPL is not enough, you should obtain one through this 'proper' means that is acceptable to the authority.
True is some points.

I knew some escaped, their license (no type rating, no jet experience) got conversion without question asked.

[Droste]

We have graduated sine 2009 and out of 24 in our batch, 1 got in jet airways and 1 indigo with the rest of us still jobless till today. But we have one senior who got in Sq as a cadet.
Local pilot employment for Singaporeans is terrible. LHL, TCJ and LTY drawing big salary yet doing nothing for them.

Make wise choice in GE2016.

[dream747]

On the other hand just a point to note as well, there were many Singaporean private candidates who went thorough an approved course and they all had an opportunity given to them by one or more local operators and most of them who made good use of it now are flying for their respective airlines.

[wonderland]

In a way it's good CAAS controls the cpl pool in sg, otherwise every kid with a rich daddy will be out playing "pilot" and endangering the lives of self loading freight.

When I was in sg I met a guy whom on the ground was already not only a danger to himself, but a danger to others, no sg airline would accept him into their cadet programs, in the end, he went to south Africa to train.

Now hes back and whines that caas would not convert his license, and deep down inside I am happy they didn't. Sg is a tiny country with almost no GA aviation (WSSL is all), so if you want to get a cadetship, you got to be at the top of the food chain.