WW3 Battle of Britain

[ExRAFRadar]

I just know I am going to get slaughtered for this but here we go.

I am developing a scenario for a new wargame that simulates Air and Naval operations in the time frame 1950 -2020.

Always been a dream of mine to game out a WW3 scenario set about 1985 with the WP attacking the UK.

So far I have Ivan attacking down the Gap with the usual suspects, Blinders, Backfires, Badgers and Bears. I may even throw in some Blackjacks but have to check the In Service date.

43 and 111 are ripping shreds out of the initial attacks and the only real problem is one of enough aircraft to man the CAP's

So knowing I am going to get ridiculed to hell but in the spirit of Pprune I come here to seek advice.

I do recall that in my short stint at RAF Boulmer we had the codes that identified USAF aircraft. Anyone remember "Say State" "D4404 Tiger Fast +20" (I think)

So without giving away too many secrets is it feasible the ANG might have helped by a Squadron or 2 of F15's in the defense of the Unsinkable Aircraft Carrier ?

Also to spice things up a little I am thinking of having Pact Frontal Aviation units attack the Southern UKADR from captured bases in Denmark, Holland and Belgium. Is this feasible ?

As per usual Mods feel free to delete/move this post if you think it is unsuitable.

Thank all and waiting for incoming.

[Canadian Break]

Check your PMs

[moggiee]

I suppose that you could do worse than read (re-read) Red Storm Rising by the late Tom Clancy.

(that and Hunt for Red October are the only things with his name on the cover that are worth reading, mind you)

[MAINJAFAD]

I suppose that you could do worse than read (re-read) Red Storm Rising by the late Tom Clancy.

(that and Hunt for Red October are the only things with his name on the cover that are worth reading, mind you)

Maybe because Larry Bond helped him write both.

ExRAFRadar

If you're having Sector South play in this don't forget the SAMs (I've got some facts and figures about BH2 effectiveness against a few WARPAC types that you may find useful).

[onyxcrowle]

Given that a hypothetical World war 3 would likely involve some electronic warfare, You may find 'current hardware' Stuck on the ground.
An enemy would if it had managed as you suggest to secure airbases that close would have the capacity to render airborne defence problematic.
Plus our armed forces having being reduced would make a ' Battle of Britain' difficult.
Back in the last war they mass produced aircraft .
So maybe you might end up fighting with Spitfires again. Easy to build fast and no Electronic systems. And could probably be retro fitted with modern bullets

[Canadian Break]

Don't forget MFF as well!

[MAINJAFAD]

So without giving away too many secrets is it feasible the ANG might have helped by a Squadron or 2 of F15's in the defense of the Unsinkable Aircraft Carrier ?

F15's possible. F4's definitely, as at least one RAF airfield I know of would have had USAF/ANG Phantoms based on it after the main type operated there in peacetime pushed up to forward operating locations.

[Canadian Break]

That would be the Alabama National Guard then JAF - from Colt.

[Courtney Mil]

A fascinating scenario and one that many of us would have played out in our heads and during numerous excercises. I think you could find a rich source of ides here.

One thing, though. You must keep it realistic. So phrases such as

43 and 111 are ripping shreds out of the initial attacks

will seriously discredit your plan. I mean, 111 Sqn ripping shreds out of the Soviets. Really? Keep it real, Dude!

[CoffmanStarter]

Light blue touch-paper and retire ...

[Canadian Break]

Coff, unlike Sharkey who would "dark blue touchpaper and retire"? hat, coat etc:ok:

[MAINJAFAD]

CB

Correct :ok:

Only other type I've seen on Exercise Flintlock were ANG A-7s into Sculthorpe.

[MAINJAFAD]

Don't forget MFF as well!

Plus a couple of winder armed Hawks orbiting the odd RAF airfield and all of the USAF MOB's and some RAF ones would have been eqiupped with all weather ShoRAD (Rapier FSB or Skyguard controlled guns).

[onyxcrowle]

In theory though there must be some kind of plan B to use older non electronic driven equipment like for example a Spitfire.
I read once that the US keep a couple of their old Museum ship's , Iowa?. In readiness in case of some kind of Emp attack.
But do we have 'modern' examples of prop driven aircraft capable of the same maneuverability and speed of the Spitfires and their Peers.
I thought id seen something about there being one around. But not sure if it was a Tucano or even if they are capable of being in combat.
Is there current compatible armour peircing ammo that could fit those old guns?.
Its an interesting thread in that if nothing else it gets you thinking how our defence could work if we lost or our electronics.
We might be down for a short while but . We must thanks to Raf Storage and Museums have all the schematics. Almost a complete step by step guide to get going.
They can take off almost anywhere and youd probably be able to train pilots who just held a Cessna or single engine licence to fly them.
But if you need numbers quickly and it would work. It might be a method of survival

[ExRAFRadar]

I'm overwhelmed chaps. I fully expected to be shot down in flames. But...

The Tremblers and Fighting cocks have indeed ripped into the hordes coming south but that was before I tweaked the plot.

Now, that 4 ship TU22 group carrying 2 AS4 each is now 4 Singletons spaced 30 miles apart and barrelling in at 500 Knots, all targeted on Leuchers

And the 2 ship CAP is looking a bit 'Which one do we go for'. That and the 160 mile range of the Tercom AS4's should give the Leuchers Station Commander something to think about.

The Central plot is looking a bit sad as well. 2 Blinder's made it past the extended CAP and got off 2 ARM's at about 80 miles. Boulmer is now a burning wreck.

I am deploying a flight of 6 a/c north from Wattisham (56 Sqn) to one of the Scottish bases. See if that helps.

The game models aircraft stands so you cannot just wedge 100 aircraft into Lossie.

And, just for fun, the Humber bridge is now destroyed. A single AS4 took care of that.

Not all Ivan's way though. The turnaround time, according to the database, is a whopping 20 hours for Blinders/Backfires with the AS4.

And I have yet to add the Binbrook 5 and 11 supersonic Spitfires.

And our Colonial Cousins have yet to join the fray. Well in the UK anyway. On the Central Front they are heavily engaged.

Just realized I have not added Shacks in. So much to do.

[racedo]

What about considering
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/520550-taceval-stories.html

Lots of data here on wildcards that would come into play and why assume they would be played only on one side.

Course as the Nazis found out it really is a struggle to fight a war with no fuel hence denial of force multipliers by taking out airborne tankers and refuelling bases makes it more interesting.

[Courtney Mil]

Don't tell us the plot now, ExRAFRadar!!!

In theory though there must be some kind of plan B to use older non electronic driven equipment like for example a Spitfire.

And why do you think you never hear about such things? To this day that is not something we discuss. Why do you thing BBMF have spares available to them when they need them?

[ExRAFRadar]

One thing I would request from those that were there.

I am looking for authentic 1980's Sqn tactical callsigns.

And in the interest of authenticity if anyone can give me Tail Numbers I can add them to the OOB. See how they would have fared. :)

I have the Hawks on point defense, but I need to research MOB' and FOB's. I mean what would you rather have 4xF15C's or 6 Hawks.

And if Beagle is reading the Tankers are up, doing a sterling job.

The game doesn't model ramming so cant use them as a last ditch ;)

[ExRAFRadar]

Good thread there racedo. Thanks.

I done my share of late nights and exercises. Oh wait, I was at Spade for 4 years so come to think of it I never worked past 8 and the working week on nights was no more than 16 hours. Tops.

Life was hard.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

And I have yet to add the Binbrook 5 and 11 supersonic Spitfires.

The Ottringham beacon is safe then....;)

[Always a Sapper]

How far have the land forces got across europe? By what day 3? BAOR is err... well not very well may be one way of describing it.

By week 1, certainly 2 if it's not already gone tac nuke then the opposition could well be in a position to use the Autobahns as fwd runways unless the Sappers had managed to crater them a bit.

IIRC for us, it was going to be a mad rush to blow up any and every bridge in sight along with 'prepping' certain stretches of autobahn... Before either getting taken out or dropping thru lack of sleep etc. The bang was already in place, near to the targets and hidden in 'innocent' looking concrete barns, substations, holes in the ground etc and just needed rigging on the target. Study the bridges closely and you would have seen the brackets already welded in place on the bridges for the charges.

Of course, the West German Tankies had their own plan, a good mate from back then who commanded a Sqn of Leopard IIs reckoned they were only going one way, and that was straight to Moscow on the principle the recce had already been done and they knew the way!

[racedo]

Of course, the West German Tankies had their own plan, a good mate from back then who commanded a Sqn of Leopard IIs reckoned they were only going one way, and that was straight to Moscow on the principle the recce had already been done and they knew the way!

:E

Some things are just inherent in the gene pool.................

[Lima Juliet]

In theory though there must be some kind of plan B to use older non electronic driven equipment like for example a Spitfire.
I read once that the US keep a couple of their old Museum ship's , Iowa?. In readiness in case of some kind of Emp attack.
But do we have 'modern' examples of prop driven aircraft capable of the same maneuverability and speed of the Spitfires and their Peers.
I thought id seen something about there being one around. But not sure if it was a Tucano or even if they are capable of being in combat.
Is there current compatible armour peircing ammo that could fit those old guns?.
Its an interesting thread in that if nothing else it gets you thinking how our defence could work if we lost or our electronics.
We might be down for a short while but . We must thanks to Raf Storage and Museums have all the schematics. Almost a complete step by step guide to get going.
They can take off almost anywhere and youd probably be able to train pilots who just held a Cessna or single engine licence to fly them.
But if you need numbers quickly and it would work. It might be a method of survival

An old bloke rumoured to me that the VGSs got motorgliders bought for them on the idea if the war went 'hot' then they would be used for light comms duties around the UK. Anyone else ever heard this?

LJ

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

The Bulldogs and Chippies had a light comms war role. I remember acting as an observer whilst an APO on the UAS for our yearly practice. One exercise was helping the Police divert traffic round a blocked A1. Ten minutes in, the exercise turned real when an HGV overturned, and we made ourselves useful for an hour, then back home for tea & medals.:ok:

[Basil]

Not that I'd want to see anyone get themselves in trouble, but any Russian readers with specialist knowledge care to comment?
It WAS a long time ago and the equipment, order of battle and plans have moved on so you wouldn't be giving anything away.

[racedo]

It WAS a long time ago and the equipment, order of battle and plans have moved on so you wouldn't be giving anything away.

Isn't the Govt still keeping WW1 stuff secret......................in case of a rerun maybe.

[FODPlod]

...The Central plot is looking a bit sad as well. 2 Blinder's made it past the extended CAP and got off 2 ARM's at about 80 miles. Boulmer is now a burning wreck...

Does anyone remember JIPS involving the stationing of an air defence destroyer in the North Sea?

[MAINJAFAD]

The Bulldogs and Chippies had a light comms war role. I remember acting as an observer whilst an APO on the UAS for our yearly practice. One exercise was helping the Police divert traffic round a blocked A1. Ten minutes in, the exercise turned real when an HGV overturned, and we made ourselves useful for an hour, then back home for tea & medals.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

_MCbTvoNrAg

As shown in the 1984 WWIII drama 'Threads' at 1.26.55

Anyhow EMP effects are very overrated. Yes it will cause massive effects on certain bits of unprotected electronic equipment in use at the time of the attack, but use surge protection on the power supplies and aerial feeders, shield the equipment in an earthed metal box (faraday cage) and fit optical isolators on any copper signal cables coming in (or use fibre optics) and the effects on electronic equipment are almost zero. On unprotected valve operated equipment the effects are minimal. Anything that cannot be protected when in use, ensure you have a spare stored in an earthed metal box, replace the burnt out item after the attack and carry on fighting. Anything not in use, disconnect the antennas and power supplies and ensure the thing is connected to earth (which of course the guys in the civil ECP in Sheffield forget to do when the Air Attack Red warning is called. As regards true EW, try jamming a Type 85 at full power.


...The Central plot is looking a bit sad as well. 2 Blinder's made it past the extended CAP and got off 2 ARM's at about 80 miles. Boulmer is now a burning wreck...

What was the ARM's front end??? Nukes:confused:. To be honest I would suspect that the receiver in the homing head on a Soviet long range ARM would get fried and it would go ballistic before it got anywhere near a T85 Site at full power :cool: . Plus of course their was a big red kill button in the engineering bridge of the R12 that shut down all of the site radars that could be pressed if a Mach 4 target started heading the station's way. No signal, no homing:=).

[Canadian Break]

Don't forget Boulmer also had the T91 deployed at Brunton - with a basic control facility as well (certainly for Broadcast) and, latterly, the T93 at Albemarle as well.

[ExRAFRadar]

FOD - "air defence destroyer in the North Sea"

Type 42 is in the scenario, just waiting to see if it needed.

Actually gaming out this out is making me wince a little bit. Late last night the RAF lost all 3 SOC's to ASM. Wattisham and Leuchers are Black because Kitchens hit the 'Access to Runway' targets. Basically they destroyed the taxi path into the runway stopping aircraft taking off. These have an estimated 10 hour repair time. Leucher's also lost 3 aircraft on the ground due to HAS's being taken out. Should be glad that 2 Kitchens failed and 3 more missed by over 50 meters so no damage. These bloody Kitchens are a nightmare. Once they are launched nothing can seem to get near them. Rapier point defense does not even engage. Bug perhaps. But the AS4 stays at about 70K feet then just drops onto the target at about 2000 knots.

The Shacks are providing the majority of the UK Radar Coverage right now.

Binbrook is now operational and 5/11 are giving a good account of themselves.

Total Ivan losses are around the 60 mark so far.

The lack of Pact Fighter assets means I can push the CAP further out with Tanker support. Not sure if this is accurate.

Also I realised that unless I assume Norway has fallen or her Radar units have been taken out then I should model her installations so the UK gets a raid warning much earlier. This thing is growing.

I have just stuck 2 Squadrons of USAF ANG F4's into Lakenheath and Coningsby. See how that pans out.

The ports of Immigham, Grimsby and some others with Ro-Ro capability are next on the target list.

Just thinking of giving the UK player an extra challenge by getting something coming in from the West.

[ORAC]

I am looking for authentic 1980's Sqn tactical callsigns. Once at war the use of tactical call signs stopped, Phoenix, Rooster etc were peacetime only. Wartime (and QRA) callisgns came from a SACLANT crpto manual and rotated every 24 hours and consisted of a Trigraph, e.g. "L2Y" plus 2 number code.

The numeric codes were base issued and the systems varied. Some gave sqn blocks, but since CAPlead went to the lowest number most alternated, e.g. 43 even numbers and 111 odd numbers.

The fuel/weapons fits went as follows*

A = clean wing F4
B = F4 centreline tank only
C = F4 wing tanks only
D = F4 wing and centrline tanks
E = F3/F5 Lightning
F = F6 Lighting
G = F6 with overwing tanks

Weapons code was 2 digits and +/-, plus a further digit.

First digit was Sparrow/Skyflash for the F4 and Redtop for the Ltg. Second digit was Sidewinder for the F4 and Firestreak for the Ltg.

+ = Gun with more than 50% ammo, - less than 50%

last digit was number of missiles where the crew had a frontal kill capability. That usually thought of as Skyflash for the F4 and Redtop for the Lightning, but radar status had to be factored in.

An F4 with a serviceable radar might claim D44+8, but depending on Gadget state might call in as D44+4

Figer Fast/Slow, Joker and Bingo were tactical fuel calls. Remember at the time we used Bingo differently to the USAF and had BINGO 1 and BINGO 2 calls and our Joker was the USAF BINGO. We changed latter for commonality.

The Gadget code code for reporting radar/comms and other serviceability.

* This was the days before AMRAAM so no Fox 3 etc)

I'll talk about the threat, numbers, tactics etc latter - off to Uni for a lecture on the Foundations of Politics at the moment!!

IC/FA/MC/IDRO/DC/EO/TPO plus various other jobs during the period......

[trap one]

You are forgetting all the TWCU Hunters deployed at Colt, Newcastle and Aberdeen etc. The 527th Aggressors out of Alconbury with either F5's or F16's depending on year. Add in the F4E "Sloegins" out of Iceland with EC121 or E3A and KC135. and if you look at the reforger exercises you'll have a good idea of what went were.

[ORAC]

P.s.

We assigned codes to other aircraft types, but only the RAF used them. Everyone else used the USAFE manual and fuel and weapon codes which IIRC was a 4 digit consisting of fuel in thousands of Lbs, hundreds of Lbs. Semi-active M. And IR Mx.
Thigh a USAF pilot was more likely to report it as "22 is 10 over 4 tanks dry, 4 heaters and 2 shooters, Sir".....

[just another jocky]

Late last night the RAF lost all 3 SOC's to ASM. Wattisham and Leuchers are Black because Kitchens hit the 'Access to Runway' targets. Basically they destroyed the taxi path into the runway stopping aircraft taking off.

Bloody accurate the 80's Soviet ASMs, or were they lucky shots?

I guess you are just gaming the air defence of the UK as there's no mention of what we're doing to them?

I once read, or at least had translated for me, the "War Book" from an East German fighter base...the HVAA had the whole wing flying supersonic at treetop height then pulling into the vertical and loosing off everything they had at the belly of the AWACS. Not sure how the 2 CAP jets would have dealt with that!

[Wensleydale]

Does anyone remember JIPS involving the stationing of an air defence destroyer in the North Sea?

Not forgetting CADIMS of course! The "Gap" would be full of anti-submarine forces, and those units heading for the reinforcement of Norway probably supported by a flat-top or two.

[Wensleydale]

I once read, or at least had translated for me, the "War Book" from an East German fighter base...the HVAA had the whole wing flying supersonic at treetop height then pulling into the vertical and loosing off everything they had at the belly of the AWACS. Not sure how the 2 CAP jets would have dealt with that!

Before the Berlin war came down, we used to watch from the NE-3A while the WP practised to shoot us down .... (on one occasion using more that 50 aircraft) and it was not by accident that every major NATO exercise intrep seemed to start with a few smoking holes filled by Boeing's finest, although we did (do) have tactics to use just in case - the radar "underfoot" is not that vulnerable.

[ImageGear]

If we're going to be that realistic, maybe it should be running on a Commodore. :E

[ExRAFRadar]

I am not worthy. Many thanks to all.

ORAC - Im going to use the Peacetime tactical callsigns. Know it's not realistic but seems to add to the immersion.

What we are doing to them is abstracted. I plan to offer variants to the scenario and eventually build it up to a Theater wide scenario.

Just need a Cray to run it on...

Re the accuracy of the AS4's. To be fair they are the ARM version and once they pick up the radar they tend not to miss. But I will query the accuracy with the Devs of the Tercom versions as for 1985 they do seem awfully accurate.

[ExRAFRadar]

In a thread on the game site I am querying the lack of ability to fire the AS4 ARM on a 'Bearing Only Launch' until the carrier has detected the radar. Seems a bit unrealistic to me. But another scenario designer wrote this.

"I just tried it out, it seems impossible to launch the AS-4 Kitchen ARM with a bearing only attack. It always says "target out of range" in the weapon allocation window. Which is a shame, really, because blind firing anti radar missiles on suspected enemy emitter locations is a pretty common tactic.
It seems you have to target the missile on actual emitter targets, and the ESM gear in the Blinder seems rather short ranged.

A good and also plausible workaround is to have a dedicated EW plane fly with the ARM-shooters. In my test, I used a Badger J. It is able to pin down the emitters at much longer range and it can also jam the enemy radars, which is a good idea anyway, since I had one AS-4 actually shot down by an I-Hawk site it was targeting.

When using jamming support, another missile went through, however, and scored a direct hit on an air traffic control radar. It took out the radar and the whole airfield around it with its 350 kt warhead. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/image/s2.gif"

Just goes to show you can shoot the blighters down. But a 350Kt nuke will ruin your day.

[Wander00]

"Third World war" by Shan Hackett (of Arnhem fame)

[Thrust Augmentation]

The Tu-160 entered service (IOC) in April 1987 with the 184th GvTBAP in Priluki receiving two aircraft. Looks like a total of 21 production aircraft reached the 184th by 1991.

[ExRAFRadar]

So no Blackjack's in the time frame. Probably just as well.

[CoffmanStarter]

ExRAFRadar ... CMANO ?

[Dysonsphere]

Hmmm Threads prob the best anti war movie ever made and nice shots of the F4's on QRA

[clicker]

ExRAFradar,

I have a few copies of a book called United Kingdom Air Arms.

Most from the 90's onwards until 2005 but also 1985/1988 and 1989.

What info can I help with? Info is basic stuff for spotters, Base, Type, Unit, Reg and Code.

clicker

[clicker]

Oh and I also have one or two freq books with the military ICF's, airfields and other freqs listed.

Not too sure how far back they go but if you have comms in the roles then might have some info for you in them.

For example you might go for being able to dial up a freq, get it wrong and no vector info available etc.

[Melchett01]

The Central plot is looking a bit sad as well. 2 Blinder's made it past the extended CAP and got off 2 ARM's at about 80 miles. Boulmer is now a burning wreck.

I was a mere sprog in my penultimate year at primary school in 85 so may have missed something, but why not have a go at Buchan first off?

Apart from the immense pleasure it would give me to see Buchan as a smoking hole in the ground, wasn't Buchan responsible for ADR(North) in the 80s or was Boulmer also an operational CRC at that time as well as the School and a RRH?

[taxydual]

And this, Harpoon 3 Professional (H3MilSim) | Advanced Gaming Systems Inc (AGSI) Computer Harpoon Products (http://www.h3milsim.net/)

[gr4techie]

ExRAFRadar...

Don't forget to add to your wargame for added realism that on a weekend we went home or the singleys moved into the pub. You might as well leave a sign on the beaches asking the Russians to come back monday morning, as it's just not cricket to work weekends.

When I was at Coningsby while we had the Tornado Air Display Variant the most heavily defended part of the UK on a friday evening was the Sports and Social club, above the JRM. Then the Ruskies would have never captured the Black Swan or Ratties on a Saturday night.

The biggest disaster in your war-game could be if you roll two 6's which means that Pizza shop on the walk home from the pub has closed and you wake up next to a local one eye potato picker with webbed feet.

[ORAC]

The USSR didn't have an independent Air Force as such, only air assets subordinated to the navy and army. Their only independent arm was the Strategic Rocket forces and the dedicated Bear H nuclear bombers tasked against the USA.

The Bears, Badgers and Northern Fleet Backfires were dedicated to ASuW against the US CBGs. The Central Region Backfires were used as tactical bombers - photos of the time show the multiple bomb shackle racks on the underside for their medium range role.

The Blinder was a joke, if it tried to get high speed it used up all it's fuel.

They pretended they were a threat and we pretended to protect against it.

Reference Red Storm Rising and CBGs. I attended a 3 day SIMEX at Ramstein in the mid-80s at which the US DISTAFF threw the WP ORBAT at the UK through the Low Countries with zero attrition on the way on day 1 with predictable results. In the SIM the USN had 2 CBGs in the GIUK Gap.

Remembering the book, I found I could get into the sim and divert all their F-14s into RAF Leuchars rather than landing back on their carriers.

At the start of day 2 I had a wall of Phoenix equipped F-14s down the North Sea and trashed the next attack. The USN carriers got sunk.

The US DISTAFF were not impressed. The Group Captain in charge of our team bought my drinks all night.........

[MAINJAFAD]

Apart from the immense pleasure it would give me to see Buchan as a smoking hole in the ground, wasn't Buchan responsible for ADR(North) in the 80s or was Boulmer also an operational CRC at that time as well as the School and a RRH?

Until IUKADGE became operational there were three sectors in UKADR.

Sector North

HQ - Buchan T80 / S259 / HF200 / GL-161 DHS (CRC)
- Saxa Vord S600 / S259? / HF 200 (CRP)
- Benbecula T88 / T89 ??? (RP)

Sector Central

HQ - Boulmer T85 / T84 / HF200 / PD / SLEWC (CRC)
- Bishops Court T84 / HF200 (RP)

Sector South

HQ - Neatishead T85 / T84 / HF200 / PD / SLEWC / AA4Mk7 (Weyboune) (CRC)
- Staxton Wold T85 / T84 / HF200 / PD / SLEWC (either CRP or RP)
- Portreath T88 / T89 (RP)

Standby Early Warning and Control (SLWEC) sites could exchage digtal data with themselves and other ground based AD networks (i.e. NADGE). Data from RP's and CRP's to SLEWC or GL161 was via semi-automatic remote input devices at the RP or done at the CRC via phone.

Other GBAD Radar assets.

144 SU Mobile Radar Reserve. T99 (TPS-43F), T94 (AR-3D Panicle rig with 11 consoles and 12 UHF / VHF AGA Radios + 2-4 HF radios) plot data from this radar could be fed into SLEWC, S259.

Bloodhound Mk 2 sites

West Raynham - AA4Mk7 TCR. T86 TIR x 5
North Coates - AA4Mk7 TCR?. T86 TIR x 3
Bawdsey - AA4Mk7 TCR. T86 TIR x 2
Wyton T86 TIR x 2
Barkston Heath T86 TIR x 2
Wattisham T86 TIR x 2

Two of the 85 Sqn sites had a local Tactical Control Radar, don't know about 25 Sqn. T86 had limited search capability

IUKADGE Radars were being rolled out through 87 - 89. Last of the Type 93's (rig 6) arrived at Bishops Court in Late Aug / Early Sept 89. No idea about the rest of the T91/92/93 fleet though the old display systems (Fixed Coil Console 64 / SLEWC) needed a digital plot to analog video convertor to make use of the radar data from the new radars (never saw it work in NI). Plus the T93s were not that reliable (though was fitted with decoy equipment)

West Drayton was home of the scopie school in that era.

In a thread on the game site I am querying the lack of ability to fire the AS4 ARM on a 'Bearing Only Launch' until the carrier has detected the radar. Seems a bit unrealistic to me. But another scenario designer wrote this.

"I just tried it out, it seems impossible to launch the AS-4 Kitchen ARM with a bearing only attack. It always says "target out of range" in the weapon allocation window. Which is a shame, really, because blind firing anti radar missiles on suspected enemy emitter locations is a pretty common tactic.

AS-4 mostly likely a very accurate homer (nice big dish at the front) if the target radar keeps emitting, however it most likely had to be tuned to the target radar before launch and didn't have the capability of a HARM type weapon to select its destination based on a list of radar transmission parameters (the thing would have used a mix of sub miniature valves and transistors which were standard for Soviet electronics of that weapon's era). Inertial Navigation system would have most likely been good enough to get a Nuke to the target emitter site if said emitter was switched off while the missile was in flight, but not so likely for a conventional warhead. Most likely it could have regained lock on after launch if the emitter was switched on and off, but would have been very susceptible to decoying. Neatishead’s AA4Mk7’s had two roles. Provide low level coverage and be ARM fodder to protect the T85. Was a very nasty weapon to handle though as the fuel and oxidiser on the missile were very toxic, extremely corrosive and hypergolic

[MightyGem]

The bang was already in place, near to the targets and hidden in 'innocent' looking concrete barns, substations, holes in the ground etc and just needed rigging on the target. Study the bridges closely and you would have seen the brackets already welded in place on the bridges for the charges.
Ah yes. Measle shafts and cheeses. Never actually got involved with them, being an Amphibious Engr, but it was intriguing to know that just about every bridge was prepared for demolition.

[MAINJAFAD]

The Blinder was a joke, if it tried to get high speed it used up all it's fuel.

Humm, I think you will find that the aircrew who flew it and ground crew who worked on it more likely thought it was a joke on them. It was pretty much universally hated by anybody who worked on it. Almost 1 in 3 lost in accidents, downward firing ejection seats made successful escapes the exception rather than the norm. Pilot was off set in the cockpit, thus crosswind landing could result in no sight of the runway. The cockpit was an ergonomics disaster area. The controls were too heavy for a single pilot. The high mounted engines were a nightmare for the Russian sooties to work on. It was procured as a standoff missile launcher (The literal translation of the aircraft's Russian role designation was Missile Carrier (old Tom got that right in Red Storm). Its only real redeeming feature was the 100 plus gallons of pure grain alcohol used in the de-icing system which led to the aircraft being sometimes nicknamed the "booze carrier" as the Soviets didn’t make the stuff unfit for human consumption.

[Finningley Boy]

As of 1978 (when I was introduced to it all - ASOP Course 178 at West Drayton) the CRC's were also SOC's; Buchan, Boulmer and Neatishead. CRPs were Staxton Wold, Bishop's Court and Benbecula. The HPRP was Saxa Vord. 1 ACC being at Wattisham but I think about then they were in the process of moving to Nancy Cuke (Portreath). I think I got the former name right. 25 Sqn were at Bruggen with Flights at Wildenrath and Laarbruch. 85 were at West Raynham with a Flight at North Coates, I don't think anywhere else at the time. There was no change from this until after 1983 if I recollect correctly.:}

FB:)

[gr4techie]

The book on the subject of a Soviet invasion of Europe and the NATO response...

The Third World War
by
General Sir John Hackett
ISBN 0-425-04477-7

I remember as a child, my parents had this book gathering dust on a bookshelf. I used to like looking at the photos inside the book of guys on TACEVALS. From what I remember the book was written like a novel set in August 1985 but described what units would be involved, what movements they would have made, maps & plans and what the outcomes would have been etc.

[ExRAFRadar]

ExRAFRadar ... CMANO ?

Yep.

[BEagle]

D44+8

I think you'll find that was impossible to declare such a state!

Think about it....:hmm:

[MAINJAFAD]

Hmmm Threads prob the best anti war movie ever made and nice shots of the F4's on QRA

First saw it in Sept 84 while in the later half of trade training and had already done two exercise in full NBC rig by time it was repeated in Aug 85. The Phantom footage if memory serves was of 19 and 92 Sqn aircraft at Wildenrath taken during a Man Alive programme called Phantom which was about the station on exercise and was shown on BBC2 in 1980. There was an RAF CIO film called Intercept that covered the UK Air Defence systems and the branches and trades that manned it. All of the locations were RAF XXXXXXX this or RAF YYYYYYY that and the film started with the crew of a Russian Badger getting into the aircraft (which was actually the cockpit of the Valiant while it was still on the gate at Marhell). Not only covered Southern QRA (Wattashambles), but the CRC's (Boulmer, according to the OiC of my block at Locking as he was the Shift Jengo on the bridge of the R12 in the film), Bloodhound (West Raynham), Victors (Marhell) and Shacks (ISL), plus a Jock Rock Rapier Sqn (48 Sqn at ISL). Some of it is on Youtube

h8OIYHJn41M

9D2wacVbk3A

Would love to get a complete copy of it.

If we're going to be that realistic, maybe it should be running on a Commodore

Anyhow. got to get my head down for a long drive to the West Midlands early tomorrow morning to help some guys in our own 1988 era Air Defence battle simulation project. With our project however we are being totally realistic as the equipment is actually what would have been used for real back then, though it also came with a simulator function. (The computer is a Ferranti Argus 700).

[MAINJAFAD]

As of 1978 (when I was introduced to it all - ASOP Course 178 at West Drayton) the CRC's were also SOC's; Buchan, Boulmer and Neatishead. CRPs were Staxton Wold, Bishop's Court and Benbecula. The HPRP was Saxa Vord. 1 ACC being at Wattisham but I think about then they were in the process of moving to Nancy Cuke (Portreath). I think I got the former name right. 25 Sqn were at Bruggen with Flights at Wildenrath and Laarbruch. 85 were at West Raynham with a Flight at North Coates, I don't think anywhere else at the time. There was no change from this until after 1983 if I recollect correctly.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif

FBhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

FB close enough, it's actually Nancekuke. Killard Point with the T80 may have been a CRP, but the T84 site on the Airfield at Bishops court was most definitely an RP as there were no Controllers there when I got there in 89 (not to say that controllers couldn't have been sent out there at short notice). Bloodhound in 78 was exactly as you state, though by the start of 82, 85 Squadron had an operational flight at Bawdsey, a second flight at West Raynham building up (which was going to Watton originally then Coltishall to defend the SOC at Neatishead and the USAF Phantoms that were going in there), plus one flight had already been pulled out of RAFG and was working up at Wattisham.

[gr4techie]

Also to spice things up a little I am thinking of having Pact Frontal Aviation units attack the Southern UKADR from captured bases in Denmark, Holland and Belgium. Is this feasible ?

From a flight servicing / operational turnaround perspective, yes absolutely. As the Soviet aircraft were designed for this.
They had two refuelling connectors, unlike our single connector. One of their refuelling connectors was for refuelling at home in peace time. While the other refuelling connector they had on the airframe was a copy of the NATO standard refuel coupling. So that they could have used captured NATO fuel.


Boulmer is now a burning wreck.
Don't forget Boulmer also had the T91 deployed at Brunton - with a basic control facility as well (certainly for Broadcast) and, latterly, the T93 at Albemarle as well.

Many years ago I visited RAF Buchan. I was told by a guy who worked there that if they was any threat the type 80 radar trolly would have been towed out of the golf ball and hidden in a forest somewhere safer. While the underground bunker would have been impervious and would have kept on operating as normal with a datalink to the radars (wherever they were). However, I wouldn't fancy being the bod d*cked with opening the hatch and doing a run to the SPAR shop for cigs and pasties at tea break. But at least you would not have to microwave the pies and pasties.

[clicker]

I seem to remember coming across a radar station at Ash in Kent.

How did that fit into the AD picture or was it later than the 80's setup?

Believe it was closed quite a few years ago.

[MAINJAFAD]

The book on the subject of a Soviet invasion of Europe and the NATO response...

The Third World War
by
General Sir John Hackett
ISBN 0-425-04477-7

I remember as a child, my parents had this book gathering dust on a bookshelf. I used to like looking at the photos inside the book of guys on TACEVALS. From what I remember the book was written like a novel set in August 1985 but described what units would be involved, what movements they would have made, maps & plans and what the outcomes would have been etc.

There was a sequel to it written in 1982 called The Third World War: The Untold Story. From memory there items in both books that do involve topics covered on this thread.

The first NATO aircraft shot down is indeed an E3 over the central region. Its assailant, a Blackfire launched AS-4 ARM (though the other two E-3s up at the time avoid the attack against them due to a Dutch controller on a NATO E3 correctly deducting the attack profile of the Backfires.

The British do take the battle to the long range aviation Backfire home bases with a Buccaneer / Tornado attack on airfields in the Kola peninsula, abet with heavy tanker support and very heavy losses.

F-15s are based in the UK (Alconbury)

The second book has some Tornado GR specific storys from the POV of a Marham Sqn CO of a JP233 attack on an East German airfield were two of the eight aircraft are shot down over the target and a third is brought down by a suspected I-Hawk blue on blue as the force cross the FEBA on the return to the UK. The other Tornado POV story is from a 17 Sqn liney after he is injuried in a 50 strong Flogger raid on Bruggen.

Hackett also has F-111's and Tornados pull off a wide range attack on the East German and Polish Rail Bridges with LGB's, very much like the opening NATO attack in Red Storm, abet again with heavy losses to the attacking force.

[MAINJAFAD]

Ash was a GCI radar station as part of Rotor system. It was then used as a Civil ATC radar station as part of the combined Linesman (military air defence) / Mediator (Civil ATC) system. When IUKADGE came into service, the bunker was refurbished and it was to have been used as an alternative Sector Operations Center, being the same build standard as the Bunker at Neatishead which was hardened against EMP effects. By the time IUKADGE was operational in 93, it wasn't needed as the Cold War was long over and after use as a software testing site, it was ripped out and sold to a computer data storage company who make good use of the EMP proofing of the bunker.

[Wander00]

MJF - see my Post 40. Most COCs had a copy, and during an exercise someone worked out which page we were on

[ExRAFRadar]

Okay chaps, I am seriously overwhelmed by everyone's input and help.

I honestly thought I was going to get shot down in flames and to say I am happy with the responses would be a massive understatement.

I am currently going back over the thread and inputting all the suggestions/info into a spreadsheet that I will work through. Basically restarting the design process to take not only what is on here, but what I have learnt from the dev cycle so far.

One 'problem' I have is that the Soviet Long Range Strike Force bases are so far away that at the moment it is reflecting that adage about 'War being hours of boredom punctuated by minutes of terror'

There is this orgasmic explosion (great phrase) of Aircraft everywhere, combat reports scrolling down the display, missiles flying everywhere you look. And then nothing.

Ivan has a long flight back to base, a turn around of 20 hours and then another long flight back to the Ops Area.

Of course that is realistic, but an interesting scenario ?

So I intend to liven it up with the transit of a US carrier across the GUIK gap, landing Marines in Norway. As per Red Storm Ivan in Iceland may be looked at.

And I still want to think about Pact Frontal Aviation strikes from captured bases in the North of mainland Europe. Done some preliminary testing on that and a lot of Southern facilities and bases come under the range.

That will give 56 and 74 something to do :)

[ExRAFRadar]

Hackett's books are superb.

I must have bought 3 copies of each over the years and now sadly dont have a single copy.

[diginagain]

For a slightly different perspective of how WWIII might have looked, try Bob Forrest-Webb's 'Chieftains'.

[CoffmanStarter]

RAF Ash was a GCI radar station as part of Rotor system ...

A bit more on RAF Ash ...

http://www.subbrit.org.uk/rsg/sites/s/sandwich/ash_aerial.jpg

RAF Ash (http://www.subbrit.org.uk/rsg/sites/s/sandwich/index2.html)

[ORAC]

Many years ago I visited RAF Buchan. I was told by a guy who worked there that if they was any threat the type 80 radar trolly would have been towed out of the golf ball and hidden in a forest somewhere safer. While the underground bunker would have been impervious and would have kept on operating as normal with a datalink to the radars (wherever they were). Where to start.

The T80 (http://www.radarpages.co.uk/mob/mrs/type80.htm) was the original Rotor (http://www.radarpages.co.uk/mob/rotor/rotorarticle1.htm) radar and was static with a fixed radar head feeding into the type 64 consoles (http://blunham.com/RAFLAA/VariousGRequipments/_RAF_ConsoleT64_2.jpg) in the bunker (and Mullard simulator!!).

When the Bunker closed for refurbishment for IUKADGE, the TPS-34 (http://www.radarpages.co.uk/mob/tactatc/antps34_1.htm) radar from 1 ACC (http://www.rafweb.org/1ACC.htm) was relocated to Buchan along with some of it's GL161 computerised control system (http://2.bp.********.com/_96Up37nyPAs/TKtxUsjSaRI/AAAAAAAADHI/EdiRnZ8bLpA/s1600/7.+Plessey+Mk5+Console.jpg), which was built into a portacabin building - the Buchan Interim Fit (BIF). The TPS-34 was in an inflatable dome, but was not intended for deployment and was hard wired into the BIF.

In the late 70s the RAF bought the T92 digital radar (GE 592). IUKADGE slipping many years to the right this was fed through a a DPAVC (Digital Plot to Analog Video Convertor) to fed the GL161 system. The T92 was sited in a new built hard shell dome (http://www.subbrit.org.uk/rsg/sites/b/buchan/Buchan_1.jpg). The T92 was a deployable radar with wartime sites off base from which it could feed back to the bunker..... by BT telephone lines which went through unhardened BT telephone exchanges.

In the meantime Boulmer was also operating from a BIF as it's bunker was being upgraded and Neatishead was still working from the R30 SLEWC building.

Thus at the time being discussed all 3 UK SOC/CRC were operating above ground in cardboard boxes.....

[ORAC]

Just an addenda reference the Buchan BIF.

During the period the BIF was in use and the bunker was being refurbished the war plan was that the bunker was the air raid shelter for the BIF. In the event of an air raid warning RED, all no essential staff not on console where supposed to evacuate from the BIF to the bunker.

However, so as not to interfere with the refurbishment, during peacetime exercises/TACEVAL, the car park outside the BIF stood in for the bunker. Hence, as soon as the air raid warning siren went off we'd rush out to the car park and start scanning the skies for the incoming bombers and wave frantically as they screamed overhead.

Not sure what the crews thought was going on, but it was a nice series of flypasts and impromptu displays rather than sitting in the dark and missing everything.

[ExRAFRadar]

Chieftains - bought in early 80's from Harrods no less.
Now it is on my Kindle.
Only problem with it is that it feels like it's only half written. A few story lines just disappear (The SAS mission for one)

Q: Did Binbrook ever have HAS's ? Cant find any reference to them and my Cold War book by English Heritage does not mention Binbrook when discussing the Airfield Hardening program of the period.

And here's a biggie, I forgot about the Bloodhound sites :O

[ExAscoteer]

Chieftains -
Only problem with it is that it feels like it's only half written. A few story lines just disappear

My copy was half inched by a University pal who joined the RTR!

IIRC Chieftains was based on Hacket's book.Anther good one on the land battle was 'Team Yankee' by Harold Coyle.

Q: Did Binbrook ever have HAS's ?

No. Binbrook was never hardened.

[ORAC]

UK Based Bloodhounds was a boondoggle to get NATO to pay for the HAS programme.

NATO would only pay for HAS at airfields which the host nation protected with SAM. So the RAF brought the Bloodhound back from Germany and based them to protect the South-East with Rapier at LU, LM, KS etc.

The entire force was shut down and disbanded within days if the last payment from NATO for the HAS.

[clicker]

Thanks Mainjafad and Coff for the updates re RAF Ash.

Now that you mention it Ash was similar Neatishead, at least from ground level.

[typerated]

But the Bloodhounds at North Coates defended Binbrook?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

The Missouri ANG 110th TFS (Lindberg's Own)- Phantom F4C- were deployed to their FOB of RAF Leeming in 1984(?) - got them in your ORBAT ?

90% ex-'Nam vets - beat the cr@p out of the place when they left - saw one go between the hangers - I'm sure they'd have claimed a few Rooskies.

[initials]

The Missouri ANG 110th TFS were (also?) at Leeming in June 1982 with 12 F-4Cs whilst the Illinois ANG 170th TFS were detached to Finningley with 12 F-4Ds during the same month.

[Pontius Navigator]

But the Bloodhounds at North Coates defended Binbrook?

The Bloodhound 2s at Binbrook were part of the V-force ring of steel with the other sites at Barkston Heath and West Raynham. They had a better high level range than the earlier Mk 1s and could cover Lincolnshire and the Norfolk bases.

For HAS funding SHORAD was needed hence the provision of Rapier and at Coningsby I presume the were covered in the ring of steel.

[Pontius Navigator]

One 'problem' I have is that the Soviet Long Range Strike Force bases are so far away that at the moment it is reflecting that adage about 'War being hours of boredom punctuated by minutes of terror'

. . .

Ivan has a long flight back to base, a turn around of 20 hours and then another long flight back to the Ops Area.

Not so.

The Soviet bases were only 2-3 hours from UK. A particular aircraft might take off, enter NATO AD cover at L+1 and hit the UK at L+3. It would be back home at L+6 and capable of launch at L+8 striking the UK a second time at L+11. Two sorties per day could be sustained for possibly a week.

It was expected however that the UK would not come under attack until D+3.

A Canadian assessment differed from UK in postulating a single penetration corridor through the central region which would overload local defences, be broadened by subsequent raids, and allow fighter bombers and bombers to attack more lightly defended targets in the rear areas such as Holland and Belgium.

Your 20 hour plus would only have applied to the Bear force that was probably assigned to US targets although a look at a map would show that a Bear from the Soviet far east could fly a direct track, north of North Cape, down the Norwegian Sea and attack St Mawgan. It would then have been able to recover to Murmansk. Possible but unlikely.

[MAINJAFAD]

Illinois ANG 170th TFS were detached to Finningley with 12 F-4Ds during the same month.

In 'Threads' it is stated that Finningly is likely a base for deployed US F-4s (0:18:22 into the film).

[Pontius Navigator]

IIRC Waddo was also an FOB.

[gr4techie]

2 Blinder's made it past the extended CAP and got off 2 ARM's at about 80 miles. Boulmer is now a burning wreck.

I heard on the weather forecast that on Saturday, Boulmer was the most sunniest part of the country. Double gen.

It wasn't your buckets of instant sunshine, was it?

[trap one]

D44+8
WAS a valid weapon fit, Orac and I are of a same vintage. There was an edition of the bible 50001D that listed the code for various aircraft post Lightning that included F4, F2/3, F16, F15, Shar and whilst the F4E's from Kef had not yet transitioned to F15C. It was expected that the USAF, RN would use those codes to tell UKADGE what they had but in reality they kept to their own weapons/fuel/Oxy codes. IIRC we got down to P fit

[BEagle]

D44+8
WAS a valid weapon fit, Orac and I are of a same vintage.

Really? Do explain how a Delta fit F-4 can also carry a gun...:rolleyes:

D - 2 x wing tanks + I x centreline tank
4 - 4 x Sparrow / Sky Flash
4 - 4 x Sidewinder
+ - Fully loaded gun pod
8 - 8 x head sector missiles on board (implies that the 'winders are 9 Limas)

D4408 or C44+8 I can accept, but not D44+8.

[ORAC]

Beags, admitting it's not what I meant, he's pointing out the USAF F4E (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-4e.htm)s in Kef had an internal gun, and D44+8 would be a valid code to display their fit on a UKADGE system. As would the German F4Fs up to a few weeks ago,

[BEagle]

But whether any US F-4E would be deployed to operate within UKADGE AOR is rather speculative....

The fuel / weapon codes were platform specific. There would need to have been an agreement for US F-4s to use the same codes as UK F-4s; moreover, in the heat of conflict, it could easily have led to incorrect AAR assumptions etc.

[ORAC]

The fuel / weapon codes were platform specific Incorrect.

The first letter was platform specific, the fuel/weapon codes were generic. The 50001D listed codes for a list of aircraft including F15, F16 and other common NATO types. These were required for entry into computerised system nt able to use the USAFE code system.

The USAFE codes were in a USAF manual. not a NATO standard. It was just that, as usual, there was no common code, so everyone used it. To the extent that it was still be used 10 years after USAFE was disbanded as a command and no other command adopted it as an orphan document and it stopped being updated.

[Pontius Navigator]

But whether any US F-4E would be deployed to operate within UKADGE AOR is rather speculative....

Any discussion of WWIII is rather speculative.

I know an F4 under our control was given permission to recover to Kef. I guess it would have been useful in their understanding of the weapons fit :)

We once had an F15C under control, same deal but we had the codes.

As for F4E deploying to UK - one scenario was a geological event. Another might have been enemy action making Kef untenable. Another might be a surplus of fighters in ACLANT and a shortage in ACE.

[trap one]

Incorrect AAR Assumptions's
Not likely you would be using callsigns set out in the ATO and they would be squadron specific if trigraph and flight if mission. Now at the time UK AD would as you know lunch as W1E 62, 37, 45, 51 if scrambled and assume CAP colour if briefed. but would revert to W1E 61 for the tanker if sent.
ATO mission such as Buick 1-4 would be preplanned launch to CAP position. Also voices are give away, only 3-4 North American voices in UK F4's, F2/3's at that time.
Only time I've ever experienced incorrect tanker was being put behind a KC135 BDA in an E3D. If you know what your aircraft are either from having the ATO or being aware of the decode of the trigraph you know the correct tanker to send them too.

PN

As for speculation I was in the AOCRB office in AAFCE and I knew the reinforcements to the Central region there were F4C/D/E/G squadrons allocated to reinforce Europe either AIRNORTH BALTAP AAFCE AFSOUTH now where they were positioned in Germany, Norway, Italy, Spain or where ever doesn't matter, it matters as to which command they were placed under.
Reinforcements positioning during that time was more a case of where could a US based squadron be located. It took years to sort out basing with the various governments, for example some A7's were going to RAF Sculthorpe but were a 4ATAF asset. Other A7's and a RF4C sqn were going to RAF Coltishall after the Jags deployed and they were 2ATAF. At one point there was even a TASS of OA37's that were due to deploy from the US to the UK and they were also 4ATAF assets.

By the way all these deployments took place during the regular summer exercises of the Cold War hence my comment earlier about checking the old exercises.

By the time of the E3D we had access to the specific codes of the USAF, USN, GAF, RNoAF etc that were used to give weapon/fuel states.

[Finningley Boy]

Really? Do explain how a Delta fit F-4 can also carry a gun...:rolleyes:

D - 2 x wing tanks + I x centreline tank
4 - 4 x Sparrow / Sky Flash
4 - 4 x Sidewinder
+ - Fully loaded gun pod
8 - 8 x head sector missiles on board (implies that the 'winders are 9 Limas)

D4408 or C44+8 I can accept, but not D44+8.

I seem to recall that the F-4 fits were as follows;

A - No tanks
B - Centre Line Tank only
C - Wing Tanks only
D - Wing and Centre line tanks

4 - Sparrow/Skyflash
4 - Sidewinder

+ Gun with more than 50% ammunition
0 No Gun or less than 50% ammunition

The heaviest combat fit therefore being C44+

For Lightnings

F Mark 6
E Mark 3 or 5
G Mark 6 with overwing tanks

F20+ F6 with 2 x Redtops and Gun with 50% or more blah blah

E020 F3 with 2 x Firestreak and no gun
of course.

That's as much as I think I can recall, I never served in a CRC after Feb 1979 back at Portreath in 1988-90 the Hawks from Brawdy and Chivenor I don't recall having a similar fit code. It was just assumed they had winders and the maurser gun.

FB:)

[Pontius Navigator]

FB, + more than 50%, - less than 50%

[MAINJAFAD]

Neatishead's Musuem Tote has examples of weapons fits on it, big photo on the link.

http://regmedia.co.uk/2013/03/27/raf_big_cold_war_control_room_dom_connor.jpg

Down the bottom on the QRA Tote is three aircraft with a L42+6 fit (Tornado F2/F3?)

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

That would be the Tornado F2 with only 2 'winders. Normal Q fit on the F3 was L44+8, and RS10 - none of that RS15 rubbish.

[BEagle]

That would be the Tornado F2 with only 2 'winders.

Indeed. In Lima fit could only manage 6 x Mx before it could no longer meet the minimum perf. spec.....:\

[MAINJAFAD]

That would be the Tornado F2 with only 2 'winders. Normal Q fit on the F3 was L44+8, and RS10 - none of that RS15 rubbish.

Cheap shot at Northern QRA by Sector South no doubt.

[ORAC]

K = Tornado clean
L = 2 x 1500L tanks
M = 2 x 2250 tanks

[typerated]

WARSAW PACT ORDER OF BATTLE - 1988 (http://www.orbat.com/site/history/historical/nato/oob1989.html) - actualy this is NATO Orbat

Order of Battle United States Air Force, June 1991 (http://orbat.com/site/history/historical/usa/airforce1989.html)

Both sites are a bit suspect (especially where the USAF squadrons would deploy to - Greenham and Molesworth!)

but interesting nonetheless and maybe useful as background?

I was surprised to see how many F-4 and A-7 units were still kicking around in the late 80s

[artyhug]

Slight correction ORAC, you have the F3 L & M fits the wrong way round. Lima fit was the Hindenburg tanks.

[MAINJAFAD]

And here's a biggie, I forgot about the Bloodhound sites

Figures are from a file at Kew on the 2nd build up of the UK Bloodhound Mk2 force from 1976 to 82 and the 25 and 85 Sqn F540's up to the end of 1982. (first build up was 63 - 66 with no UK cover at all between 70 - 73). Bloodhound Mk 2 specs are from a number of declassified trials reports from Woomera and Aberporth dating up to 1980 held at the National Archives at Kew.

This was what was about in the 85 - 88 time frame.

85 Sqn

A Flt - RAF West Raynham

MS1 (Green Section) T87 (1976-86) T86 (1986-91) 8 Launchers

MS2 (Black Section) T87 (1976-86) T86 (1986-91) 8 Launchers

MS Eng (Orange Section) T87 (1977-86) T86 (1986-91) 6 Launchers

(MS Eng was primarily an engineering test bed, but could (and was) declared operational when required).

B Flt - RAF North Coates

MS3 (Brown Section) T87 (1977-87) T86 (1987-90) 8 Launchers

MS4 (Blue Section) T87 (1977-87) T86 (1987-90) 8 Launchers

MS5 (White Section) T87 (1977-87) T86 (1987-90) 8 Launchers

C Flt - RAF Bawdsey

MS6 (Yellow Section) T87 (1979-88) T86 (1988-90) 6 Launchers

MS7 (Purple Section) T87 (1979-88) T86 (1988-90) 6 Launchers

D Flt - RAF West Raynham

MS8 (Pink Section) T86 (1982-89) 6 Launchers

MS9 (Silver Section (Grey Section (82-83)) T86 (1982-91) 6 Launchers

(D Flt were formed to go to Watton, then it was decided that they would go to Coltishall. Neither move happened and the flight was absorbed into A Flt in 1989 with one section being withdrawn from use).

25 Sqn

A Flt - Barkston Heath (became D Flt 85 Sqn in 1989)

Osprey Section T86 (1983-90) 8 Launchers

Falcon Section T86 (1983-90) 8 Launchers

B Flt - Wyton (became F Flt 85 Sqn in 1989)

Griffon Section T86 (1983-90) 8 Launchers

Kestrel Section T86 (1983-90) 8 Launchers

C Flt - Wattisham (Was 85 Sqn E Flt from 1981 to 83 after becoming the first flight to return from West Germany, became E Flt 85 Sqn again in 1989. While on 85 Sqn from 81-83 they were called MS10 (Gold Section) and MS11 (Silver Section)).

Eagle Section T86 (1982-91) 6 Launchers

Merlin Section T86 (1982-91) 6 Launchers

Total number of missiles held by the Sqns as ready used rounds were number of missiles on all launchers plus 100% reloads

Thus

68 Ready Use Missiles at West Raynham (inc 34 on Launcher)

48 Ready Use Missiles at North Coates (inc 24 on Launcher)

24 Ready Use Missiles at Bawdsey (inc 12 on Launcher)

32 Ready Use Missiles at Barkston Heath (inc 16 on Launcher)

32 Ready Use Missiles at Wyton (inc 16 on Launcher)

24 Ready Use Missiles at Wattisham (inc 12 on Launcher)

Another 70 or so missiles would be going through the servicing chain as either scheduled servicing or with defects at the Missile Servicing Flights at West Raynham and North Coates. (though at the end a good 30 rounds were unusable due to airframe corrosion of the 290 odd that were left).

Missile specs:

Powered Range 100NM

Engagement Envelope: 150ft at radar horizon - 65000 ft (note Bloodhound Mk 2 did not like low level targets over water due to a number of reasons thus its minimum target height for guaranteed minimum homing errors at min range was around 300 ft, rising to 1800 ft at 30NM from the launcher if the target was over water).

Min Range 7NM

Best case intercept range

T87 Radar - 108NM non manoeuvring Mach 0.8 target at around 30,000 to 40,000ft (T87 Radar had a 90% chance of detection a 10Sq M RCS target in non ECM enviroment at round a range of 140NM) - Missile could glide a little bit after the fuel ran out and on a long range engagement it cruised at 50,000ft most of the way.

T86 Radar - 75MN manoeuvring target at 30,000 ft+ (T86 Radar had a 90% chance of detection a 10Sq M RCS target in non ECM enviroment at round a range of 90NM). Missile fuel range exceeded radar range.

Speed Mach 2.6-2.7 at 50,000ft (dependant on what AP you read). Missile was limited to M2.4 below 4000ft.

Target speed range limits M1.2 at S/L, M2 above 20,000ft

Warhead Kill proablitiy at up to 70 feet miss distance

Badger 100% (Mach 0.5 to 0.8)
Blinder 100% (Mach 0.5 to 1.2)
Foxbat 72% (Mach 0.5 to 2)

Maximum savlo size on any engagement by one section against a single target was 2 missiles in a 9 second apart ripple firing. Reload time per launcher around 15-30 minutes. The Missile Section (MS) was designed to support 2 groups of 4 launchers which allowed one group to be available for firing while the other group was being reloaded.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Typerated - that NATO ORBAT is well wrong for the RAF. 5 Squadron were at Coningsby (which is missing completely), XI Sqn had F3s at Leeming (also missing), together with 23 and 25 Sqns (also missing), 29 had F3s at Coninsby. The number of aircraft are wrong (XI had 15). The Tornado (both types) and Harrier OCUs are missing from their declared war roles. The TWU Hawks are missing.

[MAINJAFAD]

My copy was half inched by a University pal who joined the RTR!

IIRC Chieftains was based on Hackett's book.Another good one on the land battle was 'Team Yankee' by Harold Coyle.

Saw and bought the second Hackett book at Gatwick airport while waiting for the Gibraltar ATC camp flight, A cadet in my room on Gib told me about Chieftains and I bought it at Gatwick on the way back. Coyle's book is based on a tank unit operating within Hackett's WWIII scenario. All Chieftains shares with Coyle's or Hackett's books is the year of the war takes place (1985). Other than that the ending of the Chieftains is considerably different (i.e. the war turns into a game over bucket chucking fest).

[Tinman74]

I seem to recall that Birmingham got the good news in Team Yankee, a dose of instant sunshine probably made it slightly less grubby.

[teeteringhead]

I seem to recall that Birmingham got the good news in Team Yankee, a dose of instant sunshine probably made it slightly less grubby. Also in Hackett's book I think.

With Winson Green Prison as Ground Zero IIRC. Looking at a map, I suppose it is about central to the Brum/Wolves conurbation ......

[Wensleydale]

With Winson Green Prison as Ground Zero IIRC. Looking at a map, I suppose it is about central to the Brum/Wolves conurbation


About £150 worth of damage was done.

[ORAC]

I can remember sitting as the Master Controller at Boulmer during a Taceval when we had a Vulcan pitch up simulating a defecting Bear with a couple ok nukes on board. The fear was that the defection call was a ruse to allow them to overfly the UK and hit a target, so a suitable landing airfield had to chosen.

I ordered they be escorted to Leeds-Bradford.

"Why Leeds-Bradford"?, asked the DISTAFF Gp Capt

"Because we afford to lose Leeds and Bradford", say's I casually.

"I come from Leeds", says he, "me mum lives there".

"Unlucky", says I, "I suggest you give her a quick call while you can".

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Because we afford to lose Leeds

Not from Sheffield by any chance are you?;)

[gr4techie]

Leeds is a pretty good and affluent place these days. It is the biggest financial centre in the UK outside of London. Leeds city centre has skyscrapers and apartments springing up. And it's one of the only cities where they are constructing city centre shopping malls rather than closing them down.

Unlike Bradford. Which is like driving through Damascus.

[AR1]

My Wife used to man [sic] an ROC post in Somerset. Bristol always got it.

[ExRAFRadar]

Hi all,

Sorry I have been a bit quiet but I'm glad to see you all jumping in.

I have been busy getting the UK targets sorted out. The game lets you import graphic overlays and then you can put the target markers over real world pics.

Pretty cool.

Going to see if I can get some up here.

[ExRAFRadar]

http://i767.photobucket.com/albums/xx317/LuckyJim11/UK%20List/Leuchers_zpsd4a2adc6.jpg

[ExRAFRadar]

http://i767.photobucket.com/albums/xx317/LuckyJim11/UK%20List/EGLL_zpsf67399be.jpg

[gr4techie]

ExRAFRadar,

Can you update us with a game report, please? I'm interested what the tactics, strategies and the outcomes would have been.

Thanks.

[ExRAFRadar]

No way am I putting the actual Target list here (Secret Squirrels - this is just a game)

http://i767.photobucket.com/albums/xx317/LuckyJim11/UK%20List/London1_zps82564522.jpg

[ExRAFRadar]

Mainly land based, there is an E3 up, South West of the marked Blinder, 120 odd NM's West of Boulmer

You can see on the Left of the screen that the E3 has detected the Blinder's radar by passive means

This was a test to see if an ARM could target an airborne radar.

http://i767.photobucket.com/albums/xx317/LuckyJim11/UK%20List/UKRadarCoverage_zpse97708c2.jpg

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Surely the House of Commons bar would have been on the list!

[hanoijane]

Why? Its members are already brain dead.

[ExRAFRadar]

GR4 - Thanks to the great response I have had on here I realised it is a much bigger scenario that I imagined

Think Leuchers, and Wattisham defending attacks from the North and FA attacks from the south. Thats about what I was thinking

Then I got some great intel from someone that pointed out raids may come down over Denmark and attack from there, rather than take the GIUK northern route.

Factor in dummy raids, jamming sorties and Backfire's performing low level runs over the UK and all of a sudden I am in a geeks wet dream. Ahem.

Now I am adding Rapier and Manpad Infantry units to airfield defense.

Trouble is until I get the UK sorted out to my satisfaction I cannot really start planning Pact AI. Add a Type 42 off of Scapa or a Squadron of ANG F4's into RAF Machrihanish or Kinloss and the balance gets thrown out.

And I am trying to make things fairly accurate, so not every airfield gets a Rapier for example.

Then I realised that I have to give the Pact a target list apart from AD/UKADGE assets. So I have started adding the Strike bases (Marhem, Honnington, Colt etc)

And what about Port facilities ? Off to google to find out a list of probable convoy destination ports. If anyone can give me any Gen here I would much appreciate it.

You can see where this is leading. Are Power Stations targets ? I would suggest yes. And what about sheer Terror Raids designed to destroy civilian morale ? Not so sure about that one. But might be good for a variant.

Plus there are some discussions going on with the game devs about things like Bearing Only Launch of ARM's, Turnaround Times being too long etc.

Just to clarify - I am not developing the game, this is a scenario for a game that has recently been released. Not sure if I am allowed to link to it here.

[MAINJAFAD]

Need another Radar. an RAF S259 was on the Faroes at that time, Was operated by the Danes, but maintained by RAF Techies on 6 month tours. Was replaced by a Type 91 IUKADGE radar which though operated and fixed by the Danes had its radar picture feed into the IUKADGE system.

[ORAC]

L1 gave the picture from the continental sites ( Reitan, Maakeroy, Vesbaek, Neiuw Milligan, Doullens and Glons), links from Northern Norway through Denmark, Netherlands and France. Plus we had a direst feed from Pole Star on the Faeroes and the Icelandic radars, so your radar cover has massive holes - not even counting the L11 picture from any NATO compatible frigate/destroyer/cruiser/carrier in the OPTASK LINK which, with CBGs in the GIUK gap would have been extensive.

[MAINJAFAD]

The majority of the RAF Regt Rapier Units in the UK were USAF funded back then (if memory serves the spilt was 3 1/2 v 2 1/2. The half and half funded unit was the Rapier Training Unit at RAF West Raynham).

UK funded RAF Regt Sqns

27 Sqn RAF Regt defended Leuchers.

48 Sqn RAF Regt defended Lossimouth (and maybe Kinloss)

USAF funded 6 Wing RAF Regt Sqns.

19 Sqn RAF Regt based at Brize Norton and when deployed defended Upper Heyford and Fairford.

20 Sqn RAF Regt based at Honington when deployed defended Bentwaters and Alconbury.

66 Sqn RAF Regt based at West Raynham when deployed defended Lakenheath and Mildenhall.

Rapier Training Unit I do believe had a war role as well, though no idea who they defended (suspect one USAF base and one RAF one due to funding arangement).

Then there was 2729 Squadron RAuxAF Regt Sqn with their Skyguard radars an 30mm cannons based at Waddington. (From what is on the net they had 4 radars and 12 gun mounts that were broken down into 4 flights of 1 radar and 3 gun mounts. One post on another forum states that that the 3 guns could be placed up to 1.5Km from the radar thus a couple of Airfields could be defended by the Sqn at least. Anybody know where they would have gone)

St Mawgan had a HAS site, what SAM's were used to defend them?

[Pontius Navigator]

Don't forget RAF Marchwood. Also Loch Ewe.

Not sure about how your research interfaces with a commercial product. If it is for wider consumption you must check the spelling of the different places:

Leuchars, Honington, etc

[Pontius Navigator]

ExRAFRadar, there is one asset problem with your mid-80s scenario.

The UK did not get the E3D until the early 90s and the NE3A did not get ESM equipment until the mid-90s. Your Blinder ARM launch therefore could only have been anticipated from the aircraft manoeuvre and detected after launch.

[MAINJAFAD]

L1 gave the picture from the continental sites ( Reitan, Maakeroy, Vesbaek, Neiuw Milligan, Doullens and Glons), links from Northern Norway through Denmark, Netherlands and France

Note high value target = Glass fronted building at RAF West Drayton:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[ExRAFRadar]

Pontius - Well spotted. I think there is a database problem. From what I can see the AN/AYR-1 Passive was available from about 91, but the database says the aircraft had it fitted from 85 onwards.

A few of us did say to the devs that you do realise you are taking on the most knowledgeable, cabbage colored people who know about this sort of thing.

And they take it on board.

The game is very much in it's infancy in terms of user base feedback.

But the promise of what it will become vastly out weighs any problems we see at the moment.

Cheers

[ExRAFRadar]

Spelling is all due to my lack ability to spell. Actual release will get proofed

:O

[ExRAFRadar]

"L1 gave the picture from the continental sites ( Reitan, Maakeroy, Vesbaek, Neiuw Milligan, Doullens and Glons), links from Northern Norway through Denmark, Netherlands and France. Plus we had a direst feed from Pole Star on the Faeroes and the Icelandic radars, so your radar cover has massive holes - not even counting the L11 picture from any NATO compatible frigate/destroyer/cruiser/carrier in the OPTASK LINK which, with CBGs in the GIUK gap would have been extensive."

The picture your seeing is a no-link picture. Basically 'We Stand Alone' type scenario.

At the moment if I want to garner a complete air picture I have to add all the bases you cite. Along with all the associated complications that will entail.

We are lobbying the dev's for an 'off board' capability that will allow this along with events that would turn off/on radar/intel/units as the war progresses.

Basically a list of 'Day 1 - complete air picture, Day - 2 - Northern radars and airbases in Norway go offline due to military action, Day 3-5 - Norway sues for peace (or whatever); Loss of Radar picture/interdiction of raids coming south. Day 7 - Iceland falls. Day 8 - We stand alone

[clicker]

What platform is this going to be for?

[ExRAFRadar]

It's out now for Windows

[ORAC]

Day 8?

Every exercise/TACEVAL was based on the expectation they'd reach the Channel on day 3 and the nukes would be flying about

And in the real world the number assets, be it bodies, food, missiles, fuel was based on the same rationale. By day 8 we'd have been throwing bricks at them.

[Pontius Navigator]

ORAC, one Wintex was mega, lasted 3 weeks from the kick off IIRC and led to the GWAN system. I like to think we started that at ISK as we recalled guys we knew that had been posted to maritime staff jobs.

We even had the staish on the orbat. Ultimately the inevitable happened. I sent a message to Pitreavie along the lines "Regret to report . . . "

The reply came back "Deeply sorry to hear of the tragic loss. He owed me many beers."

We hadn't told the staish and when he heard be wanted copies of both messages for his scrap book :)

Endex occurred when SACEUR went nuclear with a demonstration of intent. It was, IIRC, first use. We expected a big bang somewhere. Expecting inevitable retaliation SACEUR opted for a real military effect as well as a political demonstration and struck 50 targets. Some demonstration.

Endex, IIRC, was about 15 minutes later.

[Dee Conflicting]

Been following the thread. I was at RAF Bawtry in 1973 working in the W/T cabin. Our ground call there for the V bombers and the Binbrook shining knights was "CHEESE BOBCAT". Does anybody remember that. Was chatting with the Scottish Air Marshal on one occasion when he was in the mob in 1997 and he recalled it fondly.

[Pontius Navigator]

DC, indeed, I vaguely remember it. Don't know when it came in as I left 1Gp in '69 but might have heard it on a Sunshine Airways visit to UK.

[BEagle]

....and led to the GWAN system.

Ah yes, another work of fiction for Binnsworth to administer! In 1990 I was plucked from QFI-ing on a UAS and given a short VC10K ref course before being sent out to Muharraq for what was to become Gulf War 1.

A few weeks after I returned in Mar 1991 and was back teaching moist young things to fly Bulldogs once more, a piece of paper arrived from Binnsworth asking me to sign and confirm my GWAN duty - I think I was to be part of some imaginary squadron flying light aircraft, which would do post-strike recce or similar. There was a number to ring if I had any questions....

So I did.

"What for is this note?", I duly enquired.
"It's your GWAN - your wartime post if it ever comes to that", a rather nice-sounding young lady replied.
"Well, it might have escaped the attention of Learning Command and perhaps the news didn't make it to deepest, darkest Glaaarsterrshire, but I've just returned from my real war appointment; 350 hrs on the VC10K during OP. GRANBY with nasty people firing Scuds at me"
"Ah. I see your point. But would you sign it anyway, just to keep the records straight?"
"Only if you say please"
"What? Err, OK...please?"
"Pretty please??"
"Pretty please??", she giggled. So of course I agreed to sign!

(In fact we did use to have an annual week of fun, flying coppers and firemen around at low level, much to the puzzlement of the local Cotswold folk - best of all was the 'non-RT convoy control', which basically meant beating up the squadron MT wagon using various combinations of wing-waggles etc. to signal the driver to turn :ok:)

Anyway, back to your games. Have you included the antics of Spetznaz poisoning the water supply and similar such villainy? If this was in pre-HAS days, you could have grounded the FG1 fleet by shooting out the radiators of the Ground Power Units...:oh:

[ExRAFRadar]

Actually the game does allow for the landing of hooligan troops but that is something I do not want to add at the moment.

I thought I knew about this stuff, but seriously you lot are making my head hurt :)

Currently I am having discussions with the Devs about a number of small and not so small things that need looking at. Not least of which is the E3 ESM fit problem described above.

And my ARM Bearing Only Launch thread has kicked up a bit of a storm.

[ExRAFRadar]

ExRAFRadar, there is one asset problem with your mid-80s scenario.

The UK did not get the E3D until the early 90s and the NE3A did not get ESM equipment until the mid-90s. Your Blinder ARM launch therefore could only have been anticipated from the aircraft manoeuvre and detected after launch. Posted this on the Dev forum and they are in the process of adding an E3A/B without the AYR-1.

Many thanks.

[ExRAFRadar]

Anyone know if the Hawks were assigned specific bases ?

I have 4 Wartime Hawk Squadrons that were made up from the TWU's:

79 and 234 shadowed 1 TWU
151 and 63 shadowed 2 TWU

So 4 Sqn's - 1 to Kinloss/Lossie, 1 to Leuchars, 1 to Conningsby and the last to Wattisham. What do you think ?

[Jimlad1]

Genuine question- what was GWAN?

[teeteringhead]

Genuine question- what was GWAN? General War Appointment Notice!

I had a GWAN as a MAOT (Mobile Air Operations Team) leader at one time. Was great, cos at an early stage of Whatever-VAL the appropriate measure deployed me!

Great thinks I - get an MT Mini and head off into the sunset (sunrise probably more accurate!)

General Office says "Sorry Sir, no MT" ..... and gives me a 'bus warrant! I thought going to war in busses stopped in 1915 .......

But instead of being let-off "practice bleeding", I was usually co-opted into the "Orange" Team .......

Which was EVEN MORE fun! :E

[MAINJAFAD]

last to Wattisham

Definitely Wattashambles, saw them operating out of and defending the place during one of the last AD Exercises at an east coast station that I was serving at during the period (back end of April 91'ish).

[ExAscoteer]

Anyone know if the Hawks were assigned specific bases ?

What do you think ?


I was on 234 Sqn in the mid-late 80s and deployed with them to Leeming for a major Air Defence ex (Mallet Blow, Elder Forrest, or possibly Ex Priory - I can't remember now).

Great fun doing Mixed Fighter Force with the F4s and hacking German Tornados :E

Quite good fun breaking into A10 'Lufberry Circles' too!

[trap one]

Coltishall, Newcastle, and Aberdeen because it was closer to operational area were used during Exercises during the 80's. Hunters used Honington during early 80's as spares on site with Bucc Sqns. Although having spent time at Wattisham WOC along with an Oppo at Conningsby then Hawks/Hunters were expected to be on RS5, cockpit on the ORP at both airfields and used both types from Leeming/Leuchars during major Ex's.

[ExRAFRadar]

Re the Hawks - Thanks for the replies. Very informative.

[ExRAFRadar]

Thanks to clicker I have a decent OOB for the RAF in 1985. I created a PDF and added some bookmarks.
Just to remind us of when we had a half decent amount of Squadrons:

http://i767.photobucket.com/albums/xx317/LuckyJim11/UK%20List/RAF1985_zps2c089f9f.jpg

[Pontius Navigator]

Aaaagh, 8 Sqn Maritime?

They didn't know one end of a kipper from another.

[ExRAFRadar]

Thought that might ruffle a few feathers :)

I just thought that as they tend to fly over the sea, they are up there with the rest of the Kippers, stick them in Maritime.

Thinking about it - I suppose they were 11 Group ?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Harrier and Buccaneer OCUs ?
(not that it affects AD)

[Pontius Navigator]

ExRAF, indeed they were.

Initially, when I joined them, they had lots of ex-V-force and a lot of abos. After the Nott cuts the V-force guys escaped and number of ex-maritime NCO aircrew joined. The old guard (the abos) were of course sierra hotel on PIs and fighter stuff and that was about all.

I have to say many went on to the F4 and some stayed and went to the E3.

[MAINJAFAD]

No Tanker support? (55 + 57 Sqn Victors at Marham or VC-10's at Brize (That is if the 101 Sqn VC-10s K2/3 fleet had worked up by then).

Is this game going to be like Harpoon in that the only AAR option is buddy- buddy stores and the mission aircraft and tanker have to launch together? It would be nice to have the option of putting a tanker up on patrol, give a command to whatever fighters are up to 'carry out AAR on what tanker is available within fuel range' and once the refuel is done automaticly break the aircraft away from the tanker with a request for 'what would you like us to do next?'

[trap one]

Add the Red Arrows to AD as their 10 AC were part of the 75 Hawks wired for Aim 9L, LTF are not shown and in 85 they had both single and twin seaters enough to make a sqn.
Jag OCU
Add also the 360 and 100 Canberra sqn's
Re OCU's if it was all Hands to pumps then ALL aircraft with exception of Nucs would have been used, as Jags could carry 2x 9L on underwing pylons and harriers had the ability post 82 for 2 x 9L.
Also you miss out the tanker sqns at Marham.and 101 with the VC10s at Brize Norton

[Pontius Navigator]

No Tanker support? (55 + 57 Sqn Victors at Marham or VC-10's at Brize (That is if the 101 Sqn VC-10s K2/3 fleet had worked up by then).

Don't forget 216.

I recall one memorable day when 4 pairs of Bear Foxtrots passed south through the Faeroes - Shetland Gap before returning via the Denmark Strait. All Q from Norway, north, south and Iceland were involved with tankers out of Marham and possibly Lossie. Still there was not enough fuel airborne and a T* on a pax flight from Cyprus had some giveaway and was employed to top up the tankers.

Sporty for the pax.

IIRC some 23 allied aircraft were involved in the operation.

[MAINJAFAD]

Depends when the 216 Tankers reached IOC PN, Orbat is for 1985, C2's were in service, But the KC1's?. Thus the reason I questioned wherether the 101 Sqn 3 point VC-10 tankers were operational by then (seeing the Vulcan K2's were binned in early 84, I would suspect that they were).

[Wander00]

In the early days of 360 we argued for a war role, but never had a formal one when I left I 69. According to the RAF Historical Society record on their seminar on the Canberra in RAF Service, it never did get one.

[ExRAFRadar]

Hold on - I'll do the complete list.

[ExRAFRadar]

http://i767.photobucket.com/albums/xx317/LuckyJim11/TransportandVIP_zps14b77ca0.jpg

http://i767.photobucket.com/albums/xx317/LuckyJim11/OCUandRotary_zps2967f54b.jpg

[ExRAFRadar]

http://i767.photobucket.com/albums/xx317/LuckyJim11/TankersandTrainers_zpsa9237505.jpg

[ExRAFRadar]

http://i767.photobucket.com/albums/xx317/LuckyJim11/DetachedFlightsandSecretChaps_zpse64d9be0.jpg

[ExRAFRadar]

Full tanker support is modeled in the game, even down to the different drogue/boom thing.

[ExRAFRadar]

I'm working my way through the list and adding them all to the game.

Granted they might all not be needed for a UK defense scenario but it might be fun to see how big we can get things. Strike planning into the Pact rear area's anyone ?

Plus if they are in there it's easier to remove them than add them :)

And in case you think this is complicated/big there are some people trying to get the game to simulate strategic nuclear war. The weapons systems are all in the game.

Personally not my cup of tea. There was an old board game called NATO back in the day that had this to say about a Strategic Nuclear exchange "To simulate the effects of a Strategic Nuclear War simply pour lighter fluid on game board and apply match"

[ExRAFRadar]

My reference says this :

"ZD949, ZD950, ZD951, ZD953 are at Marshalls of Cambridge and are due to enter service later this year as Tristar K.1's. ZD948 and ZD952 are operating from Brize Norton as pure strategic transport aircraft and will go to Marshall's for conversion once the other aircraft are delivered.
Once all 6 aircraft have been converted to the K.1 standard, four aircraft will return back to Marshalls for further modification to include the installation of a freight door and then take up the designation KC.1
An additional 2 Tristar 500's have been purchased from PanAm and these aircraft will be allocated ZE704 - 705 "

[ExRAFRadar]

So depending on the month the scenario takes place 216 may not have a tanker role.

[t7a]

360 Sqn should be under target facilities

[teeteringhead]

Granted they might all not be needed for a UK defense scenario

28 Sqn Wessex in Hong Kong

84 Sqn Wessex in Cyprus!

Edited to add:

Add the Red Arrows to AD as their 10 AC were part of the 75 Hawks wired for Aim 9L, ... but just the jets. In an amazing "best use of skills and experience" having delivered their aircraft, the Red pilots returned to base (Kemble?), "to augment the Ground Defence Force".

Some things you couldn't make up!

[Pontius Navigator]

Strike planning into the Pact rear area's anyone ?

Nike Hercules were the best :)

The one we studied in 1974 was Neuruppin. Off the top of my head, 4 HAS complex in each corner of the airfield. Parallel runways and taxiways. Hardened grass runways in between.

After a counter-air campaign you might consider attacks on the field armies.

A Buccaneer with BL755s had a 40% chance of killing a tank it was aiming at. It had a 45% chance of killing other tanks at which it was not aiming :).

[MAINJAFAD]

Personally not my cup of tea. There was an old board game called NATO back in the day that had this to say about a Strategic Nuclear exchange "To simulate the effects of a Strategic Nuclear War simply pour lighter fluid on game board and apply match"

I've got that game up in the Loft, never got to play a full game, but lent it too a couple of guy's on the Trade Training course in front of mine who spent best part of a weekend playing it. Actually getting a successful nuclear release order was a bitch (anything other than two sixes was instant game over). The guy playing NATO was on the verge of getting pushed out of Germany (and losing the game) when he went Nuclear, got two sixes and was on the verge of taking Moscow when the weekend finished.

Nike Hercules were the best

Did they come with the bucket option on this side of the pond :eek:? (and did they have an SSM capability)?

[Pontius Navigator]

Main, yes and yes. I think it was a mere 50kt. We calculated that Neuruppin would need at least two both on target. Sad about the town nearby though :)

[MAINJAFAD]

Main, yes and yes. I think it was a mere 50kt. We calculated that Neuruppin would need at least two both on target. Sad about the town nearby though http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

So the Wiki entry states, I knew that 2 out of 3 three of them were nuclear tipped in the CONUS, but not the fact that non US NATO operated Nike Hercules had buckets fitted. The last nuke warhead fitted to the weapon was in fact a variable yield one of 2-20Kt. (The most powerful one in the life of the system was 27Kt).

[Pontius Navigator]

Main, I cannot attest to the accuracy of what I said, it was just data we used on the Weapons Employment (aka Whitbread's Enjoyment) course.

[ExRAFRadar]

Want to thank everyone for the replies here and the PM's.

Fantastic support and help.

Off to do some work on it. I'll post a few screenies when it starts to come together along with some Post Action Reports.

[peter we]

As a aside, was any consideration given to the likelihood WP armies such as Poland would mutiny?

[hanoijane]

My sole Russian chum told me (whether in jest, I know not) that their strategy in the event of the unthinkable was to load up everything that could fly with everything it could carry and head West, do as much damage as it possible, then eject. They didn't seem to plan on coming back as they assumed there would be nothing to come back to.

Does your game model this?

[Cabe LeCutter]

ExRAFRadar
As keen player of Harpoon in it's many versions, I was interested to see a new game called C0**and. Would you be a Beta tester for this?

[Pontius Navigator]

PeterWe, indeed. It was said that that was why the Russians would be behind the Poles.

HJ. also true to an extent. In the V-Force we planned a return trip but I believe the French Force d'Frappe did not.

When based in Cyprus however we would have been thousands of miles from UK so recovery anywhere would have been sporty and escape and evasion a complete joke. You could imagine legging it in to Finland but into Afghanistan, then where?

[ExRAFRadar]

Cabe, the game has been out now for a few weeks. I was not part of the Beta.

But have been waiting for this for years.

It has some bugs, and some things are not working as the community would like but given the nature of the game the one thing you can be certain of is that the community is full of idea's :)

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

HJ- as for the Air Defence crowd, we planned on taking out as many Rooskie nuclear bombers as possible then, assuming our bases were a smoking hole in the ground, heading off to a nice little airfield as far from the nearest nuclear impact point as possible. I didn't talk about it at the time, but many years later, I find other AD aircrew (not just UK) had the same idea - we even had some of the same airfields on our lists, so it would have been a bit like 'On the beach' but with a few mates for company!

[Pontius Navigator]

Fox3, did they have Guinness and Murphys?

In Cyprus our plan was head east, find a pleasant yurt somewhere and start to learn the language.

Would you believe though, our first SOP had telephone numbers for the different attaches around Europe. Actually that early in the game it was not as daft as it may have seemed.

[Cabe LeCutter]

ExRAFRadar

Thanks for the info, Matrix sent me tha blurb last week but I rarely believe what a software company tells me these days. Upgrades are usually just a way to change the bugs. :hmm: Looks like I have something for my Christmas list. :ok::ok:

[ExRAFRadar]

Cabe - when you get it load up the Falklands scenario. Just sit back and wallow in the nostalgia. Don't even bother playing it. :)

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

PN - Some did, but top of my drinking list was Brennivin.:ok:

[Coochycool]

Had been tempted to ask this on a previous thread, so here goes:

Anyone know if the FRADU assets were assigned a wartime role?

Flew Falcon 20s and Hunters at the time in question.

I'm guessing the Navy might have snaffled the Hunters for point defence if nowt else but I've no idea if they were weapons capable.

[typerated]

so what is the program called?

[taxydual]

Possibly

Matrix Games - Command: Modern Air Naval Operations (http://www.matrixgames.com/products/483/details/Command:.Modern.Air.Naval.Operations)

[Pontius Navigator]

TD, that looks rather wider in scope and I don't see the BoB scenario as discussed here.

I like the idea though. I used to do that sort of game for WW2 operations on the ZX Spectrum.

[taxydual]

Hence my use of 'Possibly'.

I'm intrigued too, ExRAFRadar needs to come clean.

[foxvc10]

Send him a pm and ask him nicely. That's what I did and got a suitable answer. I think he maybe concerned about "advertising".

[CoffmanStarter]

Chaps ... See post #56 :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

CMANO update released! - SimHQ Forums (http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3847701/CMANO_update_released)

Easier?

[Wander00]

BH - and I got a boll@cking for mentioning a kids sailing club raising money for C-I -N. Hmmm....................

[SAMXXV]

ExRAFRadar:

Ref post 99; Great data & research but aspects are incorrect. I was an Engagement Controller on B Flt XXV Sqn (Wildenrath & Wyton) from 1982-1987 then became the Sqn Trg Off on 85 Sqn at West Raynham until 1989. I then did an ops tour at Laarbruch until 1991 & returned to 85 Sqn briefly as they disbanded until going to F3 ops at Coningsby.

From my time on 25 Sqn from 1982 until the decommissioning of Bloodhound 25 Sqn only operated the T86 Radar. 85 Sqn had only the T87 in that period.

From an (experienced) operators view, despite the slightly limited range (approx. 80nm over the T87's 120nm) the T86 was far superior in both aural Doppler & ability to hold radar lock. The search dish was smaller enabling faster re-acquisition/search parameters.

It was my understanding (certainly what I was told by the Bloodhound Force Cdr, Gp Capt Graeme Smith - ex F4 Wg Cdr) that Bloodhound was retired simply because the four solid propellant boost rockets per missile had reached the end of their useful life & were too expensive to replace for 300+ missiles. This was a peculiar decision considering MOD had spent several tens of millions of pounds during 1986-1989 in upgrading the perfectly adequate analogue (ie RAW RADAR DATA) displays in the Launch Control Posts (LCP's) to fancy colour TV displays. An utter waste of money scrapping the system leaving the major East Coast airfields & radars undefended since then. Britain has NO Medium/long range SAM System anymore. Despite the problems of automatic engagement (which can be overridden) MOD should purchase "off the shelf", tried & tested Patriot batteries for every major airfield in England & Wales. But not Scotland, which may have to look after itself soon... :eek: I understood at the time that the real reason Bloodhound was scrapped was that the UK had received all the monies from the USA for HAS sites that required local SAM defence.

That raises the question of why the UK Government spent over 2 million pounds per UK GR4 Tornado HAS to store a WE177 underneath each HAS, then scrap WE177? Yes -I was the crypto custodian at Marham who had to deal with the monthly flights by private jet delivering the US supplied Crypto cartridges to raise/lower the weapons - now long since gone - along with the multi-millions spent on installing those multi-million pound underground vaults. Are they still there?

Bloodhound was a seriously underrated SAM system & the controllers took a lot of flak in the OM bars - apart from Wildenrath & Bruggen where the F4 & Jag mates knew the LL capabilities of the system. The USSR tried to copy it with the SA2. From nearly 7 years experience I can say that there will probably never be a similar & effective medium range SAM built again. Every aspect of Bloodhound was down purely to the training & experience of the Engagement Controller. Wild Weasel F4's (repeater jamming), EF111 (noise & repeater) & B52's with their massive noise jamming were no problem. 360 Sqn (bless their socks) with weak noise jamming & weak repeater jamming (where their 2 bloody great engines burnt through & gave 2 enormous spikes above the repeaters) were barely adequate weekly exercises. The Weasel F4's were the same when they turned....

I spent 2 months working with EWOSE at Wyton & created a Bloodhound simulator tape of a simulated Backfire attack launching AS4's on Wyton. Bloodhound could NOT engage due to the inability to lock-on because of the tiny RCS (Radar Cross Section) of a head-on flight profile.

Hope this helps your scenario.

Posted by a seriously "P****d" off ageing ex-pat who is well aware, living in SW France, having many Mirage 2000's overflying me at well under the 500ft UK limit every day that the UK cannot defend itself anymore.

SAMXXV

[Wander00]

SAMXXV - been like a flying display round here today (S Vendee). Are you in RAFA Sud Ouest by any chance

[SAMXXV]

Wander00

Payrignac, Lot

[Geehovah]

SAMXXV

I was more than convinced at Wildenrath. For its vintage it was a great system and thanks for the post. Good stuff!

[SAMXXV]

You are welcome Geehovah. I probably knew you. 19 or 92 Sqn? I used to take great delight in "engaging" returning QRA AC long before the Rapier Sqn picked you up . We could get a fire control solution on a fast jet at 300ft at 7 miles. But it took the EC around 1-2 secs to react before they could not fire. Times long gone & the UK will never have a medium range missile defence again - ever...:ugh:

[SAMXXV]

I might add that I spent a small time operating SAM control from E3DA from Geilenkirchen in the 90's. I would not be very happy if things are the same today. On one mission we were told that the pilot was a Greek. The landing after 8 hours was a disaster, we bounced 3 times. The only consolation was the menu choice we were given prior to deployment. That made up for everything!

[Pontius Navigator]

SAM,

I remember a couple of Aberporth hits. I think the Mk 2 got a hit at 189 feet at around 7 miles. The Mk 1, IIRC, got a hit at 500 ft, can't remember the range, 15 miles rings a bell.

When were you in ops at Cgy?

[CoffmanStarter]

SAM ... How about kicking off a separate thread on the Bloodhound for us ? :ok:

[Jabba_TG12]

I see someone also mentioned Larry Bond, and although the scenario is different Cauldron is an interesting read and may give some pointers...

[Wander00]

SAMXXV - a bit away from RAFA SudOuest then - a pity W

[MAINJAFAD]

SAMXXV

85 Sqn phased out the T87's between June 86 and mid 88 (they were at West Raynham when I left there in Apr 86 to go to Newton on the missile course (the day after the F-111 raid on Libya) and they were still there in the late May when I went back there for a mate's wedding) When I got back to Raynham in late Sept 86, the 87's were gone and A Flt had 3 T86's on towers in their place. I've no idea when North Coates or Bawdsey replaced the 87's but, I'm got mates on facebook who served at both stations at the time and I can find out. 85 Sqn D Flt only operated T86's and they became operational in 1982. Having spent a lot of time from my first full day at West Raynham in July 85 to when I left the force in July 1989 stuck in one of the many sangers around 'A' site on numerous exercises, I know exactly what was where and when (as far as WR is concerned).

When the build up in the BH2 force in the UK started in 1975 from the Bloodhound Support Unit's two trials sections at WR, the planned OSD for the T87 was 1985 and it was reckoned that if the RAF could get the ex Army Thunderbird AD-10s and Swedish PE-44 Firelights modified to T86 standard that the system OSD could be pushed back to 1992. You could be right in some respects about the Boost Motors, But I'm pretty sure there was a plans to replace them sometime around 1987 which would have given a service life up to 2000 and the Swiss actually did that. However the Bloodhound force didn't get axed all at the same time. Its a dead cert that 4 of the flights were axed in 1990 as soon as the HAS funding finished. But 2 flights at West Raynham and Wattisham were scheduled to keep going until 1995 and be replaced by an off the shelf system. That was until the RAF canned the rest in July 1991 (I was at Wattisham at the time).

The T86 was no doubt a better radar that the T87 in a lot of respects, as it was almost fully transistorised, thus the receiver system didn't suffer the thermal noise issues that the thermionic valve driven receiver in the 87 suffered from (thermal noise would and did cause big problems in a CW based radar system), plus the doppler search filter bank in T86 was faster at acquiring a target than the system used in the T87.

The plus point for the T87 was with its much bigger aerials, it had a much tighter beam width, hence a higher gain and the reason for the much longer range (Both radars used the same final transmitter power amplifier) and thanks to this gave a better low level coverage over water.

The biggest problem that the missile had was it had a horrible tendency to have large miss distances when engaging very low level targets over the sea, due to the sea's thermal noise and multipath reflections of the target's return.

This resulted in a few missiles fired from Aberporth with a perfect lock on target diving into the sea in front of the target. The tighter beam on the 87 reduced the chances of this happening a bit and research was done in trying to overcome the issue, I'm not aware of any fix was found to overcome that problem. (I first heard of the issue years later from a guy who had been at CSDE working on the problem, and a report I found at Kew backed it up). Though in the case of the service acceptance trials at Woomera over land in 64/65, the missile worked very well down to 200 feet.

As for the Mk 2 system. when introduced into service in 1964, it was 10 years ahead of any other SAM system in the world with the exception of the CIM-10B Bomarc (it's other equivalents would be the SA-4 and Hawk) Bloodhound Mk 1 was streets ahead of any of its equivalents (i.e. SA-2 or Nike Ajax), again with the exception of Bomarc A. The is a very good reason for my stating that Bloodhound and Bomarc were close and that is because Boeing and Bristol had a formal technical agreement to share data, especially on the ramjet development front.

As for Patriot, the RAF very nearly bought it back in the 80's as they had a very good offer made to them by Raytheon (the fact that a Patriot radar and ECS (Spam term for a LCP), appeared at West Raynham for a week in 87 and a lot of visitors turned up, back up the claim by a later boss of mine (who I do believe had been in the HQ STC SAM Electronic Eng Office at the time)). He claimed that the Ops people had shot the purchase down due to the requirement for 3 radar / ECS's to give 360 coverage at any one site, plus Patriot's maximum range was no where near long enough to replace Bloodhound 2.

As for the LCP Mk 2A with the updated computer display systems, the Swiss though it was an excellent piece of kit as it had an in built simulator facility on it, which the original LCP didn't. I said in an earlier post that I was involved in a group working on a WWIII simulator, I'll throw a photo of it in (The serial number of the Cabin is 1022 and it was Yellow section in Germany and Kestral section in the UK).

http://107.imagebam.com/download/AerjnBqpDVJyEQmDqLA-0g/27618/276176012/P9144987.JPG

And we do have the Software for it (though this photo is from the working Swiss LCP MK2A Sim) :D

http://101.imagebam.com/download/ZAMx0i20HqtSlNo4-WnlAw/28375/283740055/EC_P-C_Display_DC_Role_Engage_Free2Fire_set.JPG


I remember a couple of Aberporth hits. I think the Mk 2 got a hit at 189 feet at around 7 miles. The Mk 1, IIRC, got a hit at 500 ft, can't remember the range, 15 miles rings a bell.

The Mk2 at just under 200 feet and 7 miles is pretty much minimum range book figures. Mk 1 at 500 ft, very much doubt it PN as the book minimum height for BH 1 was 10,000ft (The last Mk 1 was fired from Aberporth in late 63 / early 64 according to the RAF Aberporth F540).

However if your talking around 1960, BH1 airframes with prototype CW homing heads (known as XTV15's) were being fired at Meteor drones off Aberporth and one meatbox did take a direct hit at a range of 16,000 yards and 500 ft altitude (XTV1504 on 14 Oct 1960).

[MAINJAFAD]

That raises the question of why the UK Government spent over 2 million pounds per UK GR4 Tornado HAS to store a WE177 underneath each HAS, then scrap WE177? Yes -I was the crypto custodian at Marham who had to deal with the monthly flights by private jet delivering the US supplied Crypto cartridges to raise/lower the weapons - now long since gone - along with the multi-millions spent on installing those multi-million pound underground vaults. Are they still there?

WS3 is still there I do believe (I helped write the scuffer's system training emulator for it in the mid 90's).

I spent 2 months working with EWOSE at Wyton & created a Bloodhound simulator tape of a simulated Backfire attack launching AS4's on Wyton. Bloodhound could NOT engage due to the inability to lock-on because of the tiny RCS (Radar Cross Section) of a head-on flight profile.

Even if the missile could have tracked the AS-4, I doubt an engagement would have been successful unless you got a direct hit, the Mk 2 fuze had a 50 millisecond delay on it from detecting the target to detonating the warhead and the net result would have been very much the same as what happened when Patriot was used against Scud in GW1 (the rods from the warhead wouldn't have connected with the target). Had Bloodhound Mk 3 entered service that would been able to make a kill seeing its very difficult to outrun a 6 KT nuclear detonation :E.

[SAMXXV]

Coffmanstarter:

I don't see the point of a thread on an obsolete system - but good idea. However, a thread with suggestions by the ex/current Air defence crews & ex-missile operators about the total lack of UK defensive SAM systems might cause a jolt in Whitehall...

Pontious Navigator:

I was an Ops Off & the SOMA Manager at CGY from Feb 92 - July 93.

MAINJAFAD:

Wow! You do your research well. I have no doubt of your T86/87 dates. I was recalling from 26 odd years ago! Great pics of the revised LCP - but it was still a disaster in terms of response time by the EC on a close in VLL attack. I assume that you were a Sgt/Chf Tech engineer whilst I was the snotty operator?

The Swiss might well have loved the LCP MK2 but they only bought it after the RAF (ME - at W.Raynham) spent 2 years sending fault reports to BAE via the next to useless Bloodhound School (Sqn Ldr J** McG*****) to get all the glitches ironed out. The money should never have been wasted on the new visual displays. In fact it degraded the system from the EC's position. It was a backwards movement.

How many of our old F4/Jag/Tornado GR1 crews knew that during the daily missile operability & maintenance checks where we had to run the system up to a live launch state & track live passenger airliners or our own jets, the only thing stopping a live launch was a dayglo/cardboard & cellophane box placed over the Fire button? I believe that this same "Heath Robinson" arrangement over Live/Master Arm switches on the F4 caused the dreadful mistake of the Wildenrath F4/Bruggen Jaguar loss. Twice during my career I had to grab the arm of an EC to prevent an actual launch on an approaching A/C at Wyton. One of those was the then Wg Cdr G.C. I actually slammed his arm with a coffee cup as he was attempting to kill an approaching TR1 doing touch & goes from Alconbury. He got very upset but several weeks later he promoted me early & gave me the 85 Sqn Trg Off's job.....

I don't think, also, that many readers realise that this formidable system used a memory feeble Argos 700 series computer (Am I right?) programmed using a jam-jar of graphite pegs.

Great stuff MAINJAFAD. Keep the memories coming:ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

SAM ...

Fair do's ... But it always amazed me that we didn't have a medium range SAM Defence System post Bloodhound.

Best ...

Coff.

[SAMXXV]

Coff, it's always down to money, as you know. The "top brass" seem to know better - every time. I fail to see how buying US F35's at some £35 million apiece (who knows the true cost of each A/C?) rather than many more F15/F18's for a fraction of the price can be a "No Brainer".

With today's technology, the A/C is purely a "launch" platform for highly sophisticated missiles/cruise missiles & air launched bombs/Nukes. Modern A/C only need high speed/endurance/long range weapon delivery & some stealth to succeed.

I would rather have 10 sqns of F18's than 1 sqn of F35's. The US can't manufacture these F35's in months should a really big shooting war start! For one F35 you could probably buy 20 serviceable F16's from Belgium or Holland...

Cameron & MOD have lost the plot. Don't even get me onto retention of expensively trained aircrew. I'm glad I got out when I did.:sad:

Anyway, there is & IMHO will never be another credible SAM defence of UK airfields/cities. There is no system commercially available at present other than Patriot, which really is short range. Israel could provide a solution but no UK Party would agree to upset the USA by purchasing from them.

[BEagle]

In about 1978, we developed an attack profile against the West Raynham Bloodhound site. Follow the bomb steer, then when locked, break at 60° AoB through 90° to beam the CW illumination, reverse to hold it on the beam following the AEO's calls until it broke lock. Meanwhile the Nav Rad continued to keep the target in view. Once the lock broke, turn back at 60° AoB onto the bomb steer for another 10s or thereabouts until illuminated again. Keep up the process until inside the min. engagement range, then complete the bomb run.

Quite hard work at low level in the Vulcan and it called for a great deal of crew co-ordination. But it worked - and was great fun.

About 5 years later I tried the same thing against the Wattisham Bloodhound site when flying the F-4. Every time they nailed us! It seems that over the intervening years, the Bloodhound system had received an upgrade and our previous tactics were now null and void thanks to this 'new bit of kit'! But there were other benefits - the Bloodhounds were always asking for airfield attacks, which meant random beat ups of their site from various parts of the compass...:E Until, that is, one chap went over OC Ops Wg's office at about 550 KIAS. Game Over...:uhoh:

[SAMXXV]

BEagle:

The trouble with the F4 was it had 2 bloody noisy engines. The British engines were even louder on CW radar than the US Weasels. However, I kid you not that the Harrier was the most prominent on a CW scope/aural. After a couple of years operating Bloodhound (like any other system I suppose) I could identify most AC types on aural alone - the display always told you how many engines though.

[CoffmanStarter]

SAM ...

Many thanks ... agree 100% :ok:

Just think it makes good prudent sense to have a good/capable mix of AD Assets. There will always be a need IMHO to have "manned" Fighters go up and do the Biz, but a capable SAM Platform is a "must have" not a "nice to have" ... But as you say "it ain't going to happen".

[FODPlod]

Just think it makes good prudent sense to have a good/capable mix of AD Assets. There will always be a need IMHO to have "manned" Fighters go up and do the Biz, but a capable SAM Platform is a "must have" not a "nice to have" ...

The opposite end of the telescope from the RN's 'layered defence' or what the Army refers to as 'defence in depth'.

[MAINJAFAD]

I don't think, also, that many readers realise that this formidable system used a memory feeble Argos 700 series computer (Am I right?) programmed using a jam-jar of graphite pegs.

The Argus 700 was the new computer, with hundreds of Kb of RAM memory, data tape loading of software and a 20Mb Hard Drive the size of the shoe box.

The Argus 200 computer in the LCP Mk 1 was 1Kb of magnetic ferrite core store RAM, with the computer program pinned into a number of trays using ferrite pegs (the graphite pegs) like a cribbage board (4Kb of program store). No intergated circuits either, all the switches were transistors on pull out cards).

I assume that you were a Sgt/Chf Tech engineer whilst I was the snotty operator?

Only in my dreams while on Bloodhound, arrived at Kings Lynn station in late July 85 as a just turned 19 year old, just passed out of trade training JT to be told I was going to be fixing missiles (which was my original plan of getting posted on Bloodhound and never leaving Norfolk (That plan didn't work seeing that I've done Saxa Vord to Mt Alice and Byron Heights to Al Kharj and very few nice places in between since then)). Actually went in a LCP Mk 1 three times (once in early 85 at WR as part of an operational site visit in trade training, once at Newton at the start of the missile course in Apr 86 and on a site visit to North Coates as part of the missile course in Aug 86 which was a complete waste of a day). Did get shown around the prototype Mk 2 LCP which was undergoing trials at Newton at the end of the missile course (the one that Ferranti really screwed the design up on). Loved working on the missiles as I got put on the defect MOTE (Missile Overall Test Equipment). so I was spending a lot of time fault finding and really learnt my trade on the dog.

Have actually done a bit of SAM operating myself though, on the 6 wheel wagon on this video up in the wilds of Cumbria :ok:

PM603eATJPs

Normally I'd be that guy at 4.17 having a ciggy when stood outside the SA-8, but not when the radars were transmitting, let alone letting loose a missile (which we didn't have anyway). Toasted inside and out would be effect on that bloke in real life :ugh::ugh::ugh:

In fact was quite impressed with the way the Russians used valves on the kit in the video, until I discovered that BH1 had used similar methods 20 years earlier than the Russian kit!!!

I actually started researching Bloodhound after I found out the Swiss had preserved a complete missile section on the internet and started a website about it (which long since died seeing I've not had time to maintain it or do research). About 18 months ago I was contacted by an ex 25 Sqn T86 guy who has started up a preservation group to try and protect what remains of the Mk 2 equipment in the museums, as they are starting to rot because nobody will maintain anything bar the missiles and launchers (because they look cool). The main two aviation museums in the UK got everything needed to set up a two launcher T86 section (bar the secret and confidential bits), in the case of one, they have made efforts to protect the some of the kit not on display, the other one didn't and to avoid the LCP and T86 being scrapped, the group got ownership of them. The intent is for them to be displayed at Filton when the new museum there opens (along with a complete Mk 1 missile, Launcher and Trailer plus Mk 2 missile and Launcher along with other Bloodhound related bits).

I'll send you a link the group on a PM, as we are a bit short in knowledge on operating an LCP.

[MAINJAFAD]

In about 1978, we developed an attack profile against the West Raynham Bloodhound site. Follow the bomb steer, then when locked, break at 60° AoB through 90° to beam the CW illumination, reverse to hold it on the beam following the AEO's calls until it broke lock. Meanwhile the Nav Rad continued to keep the target in view. Once the lock broke, turn back at 60° AoB onto the bomb steer for another 10s or thereabouts until illuminated again. Keep up the process until inside the min. engagement range, then complete the bomb run.

Just been digging through the 85 Sqn F540's from the period and the fact that that your tactic worked is commented on.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Same tactic worked against F-14+Phoenix, except you gun it at the end -I've tried it in a Hawk with GCI help!

[Chairborne 09.00hrs]

In the early days of 360 we argued for a war role, but never had a formal one when I left I 69. According to the RAF Historical Society record on their seminar on the Canberra in RAF Service, it never did get one.


Wanderoo, I think the RAFHS are in error on this point. At the disbandment Photocall one sunny but chiily November day, I asked one of the aircrew officers present if they had had a war role: "Comms Jamming" was the reply.

[gr4techie]

In about 1978, we developed an attack profile against the West Raynham Bloodhound site. Follow the bomb steer, then when locked, break at 60° AoB through 90° to beam the CW illumination, reverse to hold it on the beam following the AEO's calls until it broke lock. Meanwhile the Nav Rad continued to keep the target in view. Once the lock broke, turn back at 60° AoB onto the bomb steer for another 10s or thereabouts until illuminated again. Keep up the process until inside the min. engagement range, then complete the bomb run.

Am I right in thinking the Bloodhound radar used the doppler shift effect of an object moving towards it? Pretty much like speed scameras on the roadside do now.

Makes sense if you flew at a right angle to the radar beam, the vulcan would have no closing speed (staying the same distance away from the stationary radar), therefore radar returns would have the same wavelength and the Vulcan is not picked up.

I have pictures of my head of the Vulcan manoeuvring like a sailing yacht that's tacking into the wind.

http://www.astrocappella.com/images/doppler_example.gif

http://www.astronomynotes.com/light/radargun.gif

Sorry, just had flashbacks of doing "radar theory" in my training and got all carried away. Perhaps the only thing I can remember from my training! I remember the instructor saying radar works by voodoo magic. I now wonder if I would have got a mark if I wrote that in the end of phase exam?

[Danny42C]

gr4techie,

The same principle is used in GCA (and other ?) airfield ground radars to produce the Moving Target Indicator (MTI) effect. Most of the "ground effects" are suppressed (but sometimes the leaves on trees, moving to an fro in a strong wind, will show up - and of course birds !)

The problem of aircraft going round you in a circle (parts of a circuit) remain. But as a GCA (you hope) has the aircraft coming directly towards you, and it cannot stop (except a helicopter !), all you have to worry about is a chap on finals (whom you cannot see) possibly coming round at your man.

Local and Runway Controllers are employed at vast expense to make sure that never happens.

In the Bloodhound case, would going round it in ever-decreasing circles be any good ? (just asking).

D.

[Cabe LeCutter]

Chairborne

I was on 360 between 75 and 77, we had a War Role of LoPro then. Best thing that we could do would be to transmit as we ran is so that the MEZ could be worked out when it went silent.:uhoh::(

Heads down, look out for the flak