What were they thinking !!!!!

[racedo]

BBC News - Police probe 'concerns' over Rangers' Armed Forces Day (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-24333517)

Soldiers accused of sectarian singing at Ibrox - The Scotsman (http://www.scotsman.com/news/scotland/top-stories/soldiers-accused-of-sectarian-singing-at-ibrox-1-3118541)

FFS Why are they getting involved in something like this.............go to a game, parade, sit down watch a game and stay away from anything controversial..............

[Courtney Mil]

You have me at a disadvantage, Racedo. I have no idea what's going on there. It looks like football fans, after a game, doing what football fans do, singing and chanting (can't hear what they're saysing) and the mil pers waving at them, photographing them and joining in, in a well spirited way on their way out of the stadium.

Seriously, I can't see what's going on that's an issue. I have to declare that I am not a follower of such things so I probably need educating. Without understanding more about the politics and the situation, I am at a loss. :uhoh:

[TheWizard]

This might help you understand a bit more

Armed forces? involvement in a sectarian Rangers ?party? a PR disaster | Alex Thomson's View | Alex Thomson's View (http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/armed-forces-involvement-sectarian-rangers-protest-pr-disaster/6182)

[rab-k]

CM - Allow me to educate you...the non-partisan (non Old-Firm supporting) members of the public here may be pretty disgusted at the behaviour of those in uniform shown below...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzV4lgoR2lg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Most here couldn't give a **** what the knuckle-draggers at Ibrox/Celtic Park get up to, so long as it remains within the confines of the stadia concerned and doesn't affect those outside in the real world who are neither involved nor harbour any desire to become involved.

However, when those in uniform are seen to join in with the knuckle-draggers, then that is viewed somewhat differently...

[dead_pan]

Lets be honest, certain members of our Armed Forces only differ from the less desirables in amongst a footie crowd by the fact they wear uniforms. I'm not at all surprised some of them forgot themselves and joined in with the chanting. Mind you, I bet they all got the beasting of their lives when this got out - they sure as hell won't do it again.

[JSFfan]

It's a very sensitive issue and after the event it's easy to say, when in uniform they should have been neutral.

[Courtney Mil]

Thanks. I get it. Didn't understand before what the chanting was about, but I guess I should have. Only excuses, football leaves me cold and the politics of Rangers/Celtic, etc, even more so. I'm am now better informed, but no wiser. :ok:

[Danny42C]

Whereof you know nothing, thereof should you remain silent.

That aside, the German populace of my time, having experience of troops from the fair city in question, at times termed them "gift-zwerge" - "poison-dwarves" !

I merely state this as a fact, expressing no comment. (however, this corroboration may be of interest to 'dead_pan').

D.

[CoffmanStarter]

Football leaves me cold ...

Me too :ok:

Never mind it won't be too long before the "Ruffian’s game played by gentlemen" gets into full swing ... :D

Coff.

[Dysonsphere]

But the cricket season has finished. :{

[Ali Qadoo]

Are we of the single- and double-winged master race really any better? Every year at the F-4 reunion, held in a pub off Whitehall, after a few sherbets a rousing and tuneless chorus of "The Flag" breaks out.

Thirty years ago, and in context, it was funny: now, sung in public, it makes me cringe. I dread to think what the other people in the pub must think - my only hope is that they don't realise we're all (mainly) ex-servicemen.

[Just This Once...]

When the song is led by your German exchange officer it does retain a certain charm; but perhaps not for public consumption.

[Courtney Mil]

it makes me cringe

Me too. Skid never could sing in tune!

[Basil]

tuneless chorus of "The Flag" breaks out.
Colleague's wife, driving bunch of drunks around Mainz, had to remind us that, if we continued to render said ditty, we could all well end up in the Deutscher slammer! :O

[Basil]

Armed forces? involvement in a sectarian Rangers ?party? a PR disaster | Alex Thomson's View | Alex Thomson's View (http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/armed-forces-involvement-sectarian-rangers-protest-pr-disaster/6182)
The evidence is all there, all over YouTube (see above), posted by loyal Rangers fans who thought it was all an innocent grand day out.
He appears to have reviewed his original assessment and withdrawn the video.

Probably a good time to mention, for the very few who didn't know already, that Greenock Morton beat Celtic 1:0 a week ago ;)

[Courtney Mil]

I didn't know, Basil. But who's Greenock Morton?

[NutLoose]

Not a clever thing to do, though I'd rather fry my testicles on a griddle than watch 22 grown men kicking a bag of wind through 4 sticks..... speaking of bags of wind, has Salmond commented on the incident yet?

[Basil]

Unless you're from Clydeside or Merseyside, you will have difficulty understanding how ingrained is Irish politics in these areas.
On Clydeside, the separation of RC and Protestant schools acerbates the situation and is, IMHO, absolutely crazy.

Not everyone is a religious and/or political bigot: I noticed a lady commentator in one of those reports who is a Catholic Rangers supporter and my BiL is a Prod Celtic supporter. He did say, about blazer buttons which I hadn't even noticed: "I wouldn't walk past Parkhead (Celtic, Celts, Tims) wearing that!" Turned out that the offending buttons looked a bit like the Rangers (Gers, Huns) badge. :ooh:

[OutlawPete]

I grew up on the west coast of Scotland and I have never understood any of this, maybe because I'm not a rangers/celtic fan. I have always been of the opinion that if you object to that kind of singing/chanting then don't go.

Besides, they're all at it and all as bad as each other and at the end of the day it is only singing. Sticks and stones...

[Basil]

I didn't know, Basil. But who's Greenock Morton?
Haa:p
Greenock also has a rugby club for which an English colleague played. He mentioned that, when an attack was getting to close quarters, they always passed the ball to him. :E

[Tankertrashnav]

Exactly Basil - as a Roman Catholic who grew up on Clydeside I was naturally well aware of the corrosive influence of sectarianism and the abuse which came from both sides of the divide. I was lucky in that I came from a "mixed marriage" (father Roman Catholic, mother C of E) and there was none of this rubbish at home. Also at age 12 the family moved to an area of England where I was relieved to learn that nobody gave a fig what your religion was.

As I see it Alex Thomson (see Basil's link) had it spot on. Maybe some of the younger blokes got carried away and didn't know what they were getting into, but there was an officer/NCO i/c there somewhere, who the very next day should have been up before someone very senior getting the bollocking of his life for allowing that travesty to happen in public.

[Hamish 123]

This farago follows on from a Remembrance Day event at Ibrox last year, which degenerated into a fist-pumping embarrassment for which the senior military officer in Scotland apologised, and promised that such an event would be held with a little more dignity in future.

Seemingly, he's forgotten all about that day.

[teeteringhead]

I think I'll go along with the thread title, assuming the "they" refers to the military organisers and or the SNCOs or Os i/c the troops on the day.

The PBI's ranks have often numbered amongst them inner city thugs - and rightly so. It probably helps not to be deep thinkers as you fix bayonets to engage the enemy at close quarters - doubtless uphill, at night, in the rain and on the join of 4 maps. And a bl%%dy good job they do too.

But who on earth who knows these men would be surprised that this would happen? One once spent New Year's Eve on a Coastel with the Argylls :eek::eek: - you name it, it happened!

In other surprising news: ursine faeces discovered in forested areas, and Argentinian man Jorge Bergoglio found in possession of a rosary ......... ;)

[rab-k]

Saw this and could only wince...

http://bellacaledonia.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/bvwp5cxicaa_-ph-large.jpg?w=700

[NutLoose]

They probably never even read what was on it, or if they did knew the background to it.

[rab-k]

They probably never even read what was on it, or if they did knew the background to it.

That, as an excuse, is up there alongside "a big boy did it and ran away" in terms of credibility.

Idiots - no other (polite) word comes to mind.

[Basil]

And it's all pretty small beer cf the ME with its multifarious flavours of Zionism, Christianity and Islam who all hate each other with a vengeance almost equal to the pedantry of those who disagree on the internet. ;)
I guess it should be an expected deviance of a weapon which developed to bestow tribal co-operation and superiority.
BTW, that'll be the human brain.

[Laarbruch72]

They probably never even read what was on it, or if they did knew the background to it.


That's either naivety on your part or staunch (and blind) defence of "fellow servicemen".

1. They know what's on it. You and I wouldn't stand behind a banner or a scarf with smug grins on our faces without knowing what was on it. Football scarves are double sided by the way, they say the same on the reverse.

2. If a soldier doesn't know the background and gravitas of the name "Ulster" as it relates to the British military he's not been brought up properly in his basic and trade training. That reflects very badly on the forces whichever way you look at it.

[Lonewolf_50]

That reflects very badly on the forces whichever way you look at it.
Really?
As a neutral observer, it appears from the history that your armed forces shed how much blood to do just that: keep Ulster as part of the UK, which more or less means keep it Protestant, given what mission failure meand ... so what those guys have on that banner seems to fit reality.

I understand the "we are offended reaction" by various and sundry.
I appreciate that the Troubles are painful for many folks in the United Kingdom and in Ireland.
In that regard, those in uniform might be expected to not sprinkle salt in the wound. (i.e, if you are going to display that banner, be in mufti, not in uniform).

Ulster remains in the UK thanks to some people in uniform (and out) shedding their blood for it to remain so.

Please feel free to now yell at me for being insensitive.

[NutLoose]

They probably never even read what was on it, or if they did knew the background to it.
That, as an excuse, is up there alongside "a big boy did it and ran away" in terms of credibility.

Idiots - no other (polite) word comes to mind.

Rab, a photo is a dangerous think to base an assumption on, it's a snapshot in time and does not explain what happened before and after. The man on the left is not doing anything but standing there, hands by his side, the man on the right having seen it could be remonstrating about it and about to pull it down after realising what it is..

There is a well known photograph of a drowned man on a beach with the rescuers trying to save him and standing around looking at him with solemn faces, his crying girlfriend kneeling by him looks up to see a photographers camera and instinctly smiles at the camera producing a harrowing image that is a snapshot in time but infers a different outlook than the real fact. Hence without other pictures to put it into context I would be wary to drawing assumptions.

Here is that image of the Girlfriend on the beach

Weegee photographs - Shocking photographs from famed New York City crime photographer Weegee - NY Daily News (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/shocking-photos-famed-crime-photographer-weegee-gallery-1.1282477)

[Tankertrashnav]

which more or less means keep it Protestant,

Lonewolf I wont shout at you for being insensitive. It is understandable that from a transatlantic viewpoint you are bound to have a fairly simplistic view of what are quaintly known as "the troubles"

The forces of the crown did indeed spend much time and blood in Northern Ireland, but not to keep it Protestant, as you claim, but to keep it part of the United Kingdom, as was, and remains, the wish of the majority of the electorate of Northern Ireland. To imagine that the wishes of the population in this respect can be neatly divided between the Catholic and Protestant populations is naive - certainly most republicans were and are Catholics, but that is a very long way from stating that most Catholics are republicans.

My own son, fourth generation of a Roman Catholic family of Irish origin with a proud record of service in the British military wears the Campaign Service Medal, clasp 'Northern Ireland', and sees no contradiction in that. His first and only duty as a soldier in that conflict was to protect citizens of the UK from their enemies, whatever their religious persuasion.

[Fire 'n' Forget]

There is clearly an agenda on this thread. Racedo has previous if you read his previous posts about 'Ireland' and specifically the Republic supporting Nazi Germany during WW2.

Rab-K is also very strong on our troops being portrayed negatively as his history implies a lot of 'mock' outrage against these troops on this day. In fact Rab-K posted a video previously that no-one could see anything wrong with on a previous thread.

The picture above I can see no wrong, soldiers from Ulster which I believe is still a part of the Union displaying a scarf that supports Christianity ? It can only offend the people that need to be offended surely ? If the soldiers had held a scarf saying "keep Ulster Jewish" would the OP and Rab-K have been so offended? I would say not as it does not fit the apparent 'sectarian agenda' that they are attempting to promote in a subversive way.

I posted previously as I had been a witness (as an Arsenal fan:0) to proper hatred towards our troops, watch this video for so called British citizens 'hating' our "murderous B******s" and chanting "Argentina" to the Royal Marines. Compare that to the support our troops received on that day in Glasgow.

Watch this and cringe !

BzHSr2-QFlo

I was out that day in a few bars and got talking to a few of the Celtic fans, I thought it was alright when 'normal' people ask "what do you do mate"? I told them the truth obviously not expecting to be called a "British murderer" !

That was the day, I lost all respect for 'that' lot from Glasgow. I have asked on occasion to this day in our crew room etc to some Celtic fans "could you wear that uniform at Celtic" ? Every single one of them has said "no way" !

As a man I can see the slant trying to be achieved here by 2 posters and I will say no more. For them to try and point score on an Armed Forces day at a football club that was for charity and raising money for as a quick google offers - Erskine Ex-Servicemans hospice is a disgrace.

I will leave you with a quick image of what 'real' hatred towards our troops is with a banner and I quote:

‘Ireland, Iraq, Afghanistan, no bloodstained poppies on our hoops’ and ‘your deeds would shame all the devils in hell'

Celtic apologise for fans' 'bloodstained' poppy protest | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1327712/Celtic-apologise-fans-bloodstained-poppy-protest.html)

Our soldiers done nothing wrong, they volunteered to go on a day off and maybe got over exuberant but nothing else, Rab-K and the OP is a disgrace trying to get our servicemen in trouble with their own over exuberance on this thread.

[ExAscoteer]

The picture above I can see no wrong, soldiers from Ulster which I believe is still a part of the Union displaying a scarf that supports Christianity ?

Then you are an idiot.

Aside from the fact that ULSTER is a PROVINCE of NINE counties (only 6 of which are in NORTHERN IRELAND), the idea that any part of the UK should be solely Protestant went out with Cromwell.

BTW do you not consider Roman Catholics to be Christians?

Or are you just another sectarian bigot?

[rab-k]

Rab-K is also very strong on our troops being portrayed negatively as his history implies a lot of 'mock' outrage against these troops on this day. In fact Rab-K posted a video previously that no-one could see anything wrong with on a previous thread.
-
The picture above I can see no wrong, soldiers from Ulster which I believe is still a part of the Union displaying a scarf that supports Christianity ?
-
Rab-K and the OP is a disgrace trying to get our servicemen in trouble with their own over exuberance on this thread.

Priceless! I guess I should save myself a few quid and cancel my RBLS, RAFA and ROCA membership if that be the case, and, despite already having dusted down the beret, not bother to lay a wreath next month.

I didn't express any opinion on the other thread as to the content of the youtube video, but simply commented on the role of the media.

Not that it makes a blind bit of difference, but you claim that those members of 5 SCOTS in the image are "from Ulster" - and your source?

As for "subversive sectarian agendas", it is watching the videos of both Rangers and Celtic 'fans' in action which make me thank God that I'm descended from a long line of atheists.

Don't embarrass yourself any further F'n'F, FFS, for if you can't distinguish between a bunch of knuckle dragging football fans (irrespective of their chosen brand of Christianity) exhibiting tribalism of the worst kind, and a group of those in uniform who join in their antics, then your chronic myopia has well and truly gotten the better of you.

[Tankertrashnav]

Then you are an idiot.




Ex Ascoteer - I was considering a long, considered response to Fire and Forget's bigoted tirade, but you saved me the trouble :ok:

[OutlawPete]

I'm all for freedom of speech and think that the UK should be proud of its tolerant approach to it. If in the military, we are there to serve all British people, regardless of their ethnicity, cultural or religious beliefs. The photo of those three holding that scarf makes my skin crawl but as stated before, I've never understood why people get so hot about this issue whatever side you are on.

[dead_pan]

I've never understood why people get so hot about this issue whatever side you are on

Indeed - it does seem a tad anachronistic in this day and age. Surely they have more important things to worry about now, like getting a job, bring their kids up proper and educated like what I was etc?

The soldiers pictured above are exactly the sort of knuckle-draggers I was referring to in my previous post.

[mad_jock]

Your not going to change the ****e that goes on in Glasgow.

Even after living there for 7 years on and off I still don't understand it.

I remember starting living there when I was 17 and starting at the nautical college to do a practical engineering course. Went out for lunch and didn't know the score about crucifix's over pub doors and the like.

A sectarian pub in the Gorbles is a fast learning curve when one is having a pie and a pint. Luckily they took pity on a "sheep shagger" gave me my pint and a pie for free and got told nicely never to darken there door again. And to go across the river next time.

Its battered into both sides from an early stage, reinforced through school and then there is still a divide between which religion does which jobs. The wearing of Boy's Brigade badges still goes on when going to interviews.

There is an old joke which unfortunately has more truth in it than some might realise.

A Turban wearing Sikh walks into a pub to find all the noise stops, he askes the bar man for a pint. The barman replies what foot do you kick with. The somewhat confused Sikh replies. Sorry I don't understand. The bar replies what religion are ye. Sikh replies the gentleman. Which point a confused look comes across the barmans face.

"Is that a protestant Sikh or a Catholic one?"

Silly joke but sums up the mentality of what your dealing with.

The sectarianism in the low land west coast army was pretty shocking to be honest. A lot of it was termed banter but there was an under current of some pretty nasty aspects. Boys could openly wear UDF and UDA medals and nothing was said about it.

How to change it lord only knows. You have the top of the legal profession in Scotland openly supporting the Orange lodge etc. And heads of councils wearing symbols denoting Republican tendency's. They have to or they won't be voted in next time.

It does seem to have got better over the last 20 years but if that's more to do with the work the SFA has done to get rid of the football issues or just a social change with a dilution due to immigration, I don't know. But I do know it hasn't gone away and its still there with the potential to bubble up.

[Wensleydale]

Please feel free to now yell at me for being insensitive.


Perhaps you should know that the British Army was first deployed to NI as aid to the civil powers in order to defend the Catholic minority against attacks by Protestants. Sadly, the Catholic militants then saw the troops as a symbol of British government that they could attack on behalf of their nationalism. As usual, the PBI stood in the middle as an easy target.

[Genstabler]

Another opportunistic piece of journalism which has triggered a storm of self righteous indignation, including in this forum from those who should know better. The squaddies at the match were joining the civvies in the spirit of the occasion and, God forbid, actually having fun. The lads with the scarf were larking about out of public sight. They weren't making a political statement for God's sake, but whoever published the photo has created one. I expect there will now be a parliamentary enquiry and the forces will then be labelled institutionally racist.
The lesson the MoD has forgotten is an old one and came with the invention of the camera. Don't ever mix soldiers in uniform with civilians in a social event, especially if sport is involved, because something "newsworthy" will inevitably result.

[Whenurhappy]

There are several aspects to this incident. Images taken 'are of theat time' and don't always give the context. There is an infamous photo taken in Malaya in the mid 1950s of a Royal Marine office holding up a severed head. The photo was immediately siezed by the Left as evidence of colonial brutality in Malaya; except it wasn't. The photo was explaining that to ensure PID, rather than carry bodies of dead CTs from the jungle, often only the head would be brought back - or sent in by other CTs wanting the reward. Still rather unpleasant, but a completley different story. (I won't poropose to post that image here).

Secondly, the average reading age (and level of academic achievement) of a typical infantry recruit is about 7; additionally they are typically from a disfunctional family and have a probable history of petty criminality (see DASA reports etc, which I can't be bothered posting). Your average young soldier won't have much of a clue except what they have picked up from their mates and from school; Northern Ireland - as a major conflict - stopped when they were at primary school.

Last Friday I travelled down from London on the ECML. Sitting at my table were two young Glaswegians and I could tell by their haircuts that they were probably in the Army. Unfortunately I couldn't determine this for over two hours because their accents and dialect was so broad as to be unitelligible to me. It transpired they were RRS and heading home on leave from a course. I explained I was in the RAF, but I fear I could have siad I was from Mars and it would have had a similar impact. They asked (I think) which Barracks was I on and what was my capbadge?. I patiently tried to explain I was in a staff job in London abd that was followed up, again, with which Barracks was I at. I gave up. Their world was thier company and possibly their Bn; outside of that was Terre incognita...

[Lonewolf_50]

TTN and Wendslydale, thank you for your kind and measured responses.

I am very aware that "sectarian/Catholic/Protestant" isn't all there is to the issues in NI.

Consider the reasoning to be of the if not P then Q sort, rather than if P then Q.

Back into lurk mode.

[Genstabler]

WhenURH
Agree with your post. There was a similar episode in Borneo which resulted in the slogan "if you want to get ahead, join the Green Jackets".
What you say in your second paragraph about recruits has much truth, but don't be blinded by the stereotype. Infantry soldiering is no longer a question of holding steady in line, dishing it out and taking it. The complexity of modern weapons, technical equipment and vehicles requires a great deal of skill and knowledge. Applying them successfully in a combat environment requires an equally high level of skill and knowledge. Then there is the moral aspect of loyalty, courage, determination, sacrifice that lead to success in combat.
Don't underestimate the trained infantry squaddy. He has exceptional qualities and abilities.
Don't send him to a partisan soccer match in uniform though and expect him to behave like a nun.

[Whenurhappy]

Hence why I said recruit. I agree, that in terms of an agent for social mobility, the Army is nulli secundis. I've worked with troops in three Theatres and I agree about their ability to be loyal and well-trained, but in many cases, their horizon does not extend beyond their Company, their mates (see Company) and their football team. The Army does an incredible job with the raw material, but sometimes things go wrong. I had the misfortune of spending some time at Aldershot and I ceased to be surprised how, err, enterprising the troops could be to break the law, get into very violent fights, to lie, cheat and steal. Oh course, Gentlemen of the RAF don't get into that sort of thing...