I dont undertsand, please help

[Mrs Flypuppy]

My husband has just completed 10 months of study both on the ground and flying to pass the Commercial Pilots Licence.

This seems to be a very big achievement to me and I am very proud of him but I do not understand why it is not possible to get a job with this qualification. It has cost very much time and energy for both myself and him but now he must spend more time and energy (and more money!!) on the Instrumental Rating.

If it is necessary for a pilot to have both these qualifications before a job can be had why is there no combined test which would give the companies what is required and save much time and money for the pilots? Is it just a way of the authorities and schools making more money from students or is there a very good reason for this?

I would appreciate serious answers please. Thank you.

[Bluejet]

An instrument rating allows your husband to fly his aircraft, legally in bad weather. Specifically it allows him to file an instrument flight plan, these effectively give him priority over non commercial or non- instrument flight rules traffic. However a pre-cursor to accepting an instrument clearance is the implicit understanding from Air traffic Control that you can fly in in conditions in which you can not see the ground or a horizon (i.e. in clouds). This is because they tell you which way to go and expect you to go that way directly. Without an Instrument rating your husband is not allowed to fly in clouds, and cannot take an instrument Flight Rules (IFR) clearance from ATC...so no priority or direct routings or flight in class A controlled airspace (that's the major airspace around airports etc.)

All commercial companies will normally expect your husband to be able to operate their aircraft in clouds....and require them to fly in accordance with Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) in Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC - in clouds)

The specifical legalese and jorgonese about this is a tad confusing if all you are after is why he needs an instrument rating to get a decent commercial job. Yep it is expensive, but it isn't just a hoop to go through it is a taxiing and valuable skill and qualification to have and one that will make him a far safer aviator.

[low n' slow]

Another factor contributing to your husbands inability to get a decent flying job is the fact that he dousn't have an Air Transport Pilots license.
The CPL (commercial pilots license) permits him to participate in commercial operations, however he cannot legally be the captain of that a/c. To enable this he needs an ATPL. The problem is that, even though he may be qualified, the airlines will choose the pilots with the potential to become captains at a later stage. And don't forgett that the number of airlines recruiting at present are VERY few, and there are a lot of ATPL holders out there. I have the same problem...

best of luck to you both/lns

[Tinstaafl]

A CPL holder can certainly be captain ie Pilot-in-command in commercial operations. S/he just can't be PIC if the operation is in an a/c that requires at least two flight crew.

The CPL holder can of course be the co-pilot.

The problem is that there is much more scope for employment with an instrument rating since there are many, many more operations that utilise that qualification eg ones in a/c that require two crew et c etc

There are still commercial jobs that don't require an IR but not very many compared to the number of qualified applicants ie any CPL or ATPL holder with or without an IR.

[redsnail]

Hi Mrs Pups,
Unfortunately because of the type of flying that is done in Europe, an IR is required. Also, I am sure you have noticed the weather isn't always the best.

The only way he could get a job in Europe with no instrument rating would be to fly parachute jumpers, scenics (tourists) or instruct.
I don't think there is that much parachute jumping, I haven't seen much scenic operations being advertised and to instruct would mean an instructor rating - more money to spend.

If Pups was in Africa, Australia, NZ, USA or Canada then he could get a job with a "bare CPL". However, it would mean travelling a long way from where you are and he'd "only" be flying a single engine aircraft or at best a small twin in good weather. He would be in "general aviation" and he wouldn't earn much money. Also, the competition for those jobs is very very fierce as well.

For Pups to get a decent job in Europe flying a turb prop or a jet then he has to get the instrument rating. Sad but true.

I hope this helps.

[Capt Claret]

Mrs Flypuppy,

Another way of looking at it, is that a CPL is the minimum level of qualification that is acceptable to the authorites for one to be allowed to pe paid to fly.

However industry generally requires a level of experience, or qualification, above the bare minimum.

I guess it could be likened to university entrance to say a medical degree. One may have completed one's university entrance exams, and scored a high enough pass to gain entry to the Uni, but not scored a high enough pass to gain entry to the School of Medicine.

Back to flying, it is a long and arduous task, but in my view worth is, as there is no better way to make a living!

Good luck to you & Mr Puppy, it won't be easy!

[+TS]

Hi there,

It is possible (even in Holland) to get work with a CPL alone. But this can be used as a step towards the other licenses or just to gain some experience. (It is also very helpfull and nice).
The pay is lousy and maybe you'll fly about 15 hrs a month but it is a start. (Pay = 15 * 10 Euro)

To go for the real jobs he will need all the other licences too. (IR/Multi)

Good luck.

[Mrs Flypuppy]

Thank you for your replies, I do understand why an Instrument Rating is needed. What I dont understand, is if the weather is so bad in Europe why are there 2 separate tests? The CPL almost seems like a waste of time if the IR is so important. Why is there then no combined test? This is what confuses me.

Sorry if I am asking a silly question.

[Whirlybird]

Mrs Flypuppy,

Being in a similar situation to your husband (but flying helicopters), I often have people ask me why I can't get a job with a CPL. I tell them that a CPL is like a first degree in some non-vocational subject; it sounds impressive and proves your ability, but doesn't qualify you for anything specific enough for people to want to employ you. But they CAN employ you if they want to, in both cases. It's just that further more specific training is USUALLY required. If you made that training part of the CPL/degree...well, where would you draw the line? There are all sorts of qualifications you could get, in both cases - and the best qualified person is always going to get any jobs that come along; sad, but true.

[twistedenginestarter]

The CPL combines theory about both visual and instrument flying with a test which is concerned only with visual flying. The Instrument Rating is sort of the instrument flying test of the CPL because as you now appreciate the CPL is not serious until you have completed the IR. Why have the CPL Flight Test? Good question - I guess it is just tradition.

[willbav8r]

Here in the US, in order to gain the CPL, you have to first get the insrument rating.

In fact, 3 hrs of hood time are required in order to get the PPL.

Of course, the "IR" here is not quite as difficult or expensive.

[Moneyshot]

Congratulations to your husband on getting this far and I endorse all of the above.
But welcome to the world of civil aviation. Please don't expect too much in the way of common sense from the CAA on licensing issues. Unfortunately, an IR is required and quite rightly for many of the reasons listed. But do it all as a combined package? sorry, more money please. The route to a CPL/IR can be particularly painful (ATPL will eventually be achieved with his first employer).
I wish you all the best in your endeavours. The rewards will be there in the end.

[Nano 763]

The reason why the instrument rating is not part of a normal CPL is that some jobs don't require it.
There are jobs in General Aviation such as cropdusting or instructing where, if that were Mr Puppy's final objective, he would now have the right to work, and would only be forced to specialise, in his preferred area. (ie cropdusting/instructor certificate)
As Mr Puppy probably wants to fly in the Airlines, he has to do AT LEAST an instrument rating, probably a multi endorsement as well, just to get his foot in the door. And, as jobs are scarce at the moment, he might want to specialise in instructing for example, to gain more experience.
All of us have asked the questions at one time or another. In the end, it's worth it. Hang in there. Give him the support he needs, and you'll both reap the rewards later.
Good luck for the future!!

[Captain Stable]

It is said that in aviation you have never written your last cheque or your last exam.

Sorry, Mrs. FP - there's always more! Congrats to the haggis wrestler!