CEO at the controls of media-packed demo flight

[ENSA]

Norwegian's CEO (non licensed/rated) took over the controls and flew Boeing's 787 at 16,000' over the mountains of Norway on a recent demonstration flight as part of Boeing's Dream Tour filled with media and guests.

VGTV (http://www.vgtv.no/#!/video/52512/begeistret-kjos-i-lufta-vil-ha-enda-to-dreamlinere)

Translated from the Norwegian newspaper Verdens Gang (VG), May 3rd 2012:

"Bjorn Kjos was very excited after taking over the controls of his brand new 787 Dreamliner after takeoff from (Oslo) Gardermoen today at 10:10.

The Norwegian-boss likened the aircraft's technology to spacecraft when comparing against the rest of today's aircraft technology, and the two powerful engines lifted the aircraft containing 50-something passengers at a 20 degree climb angle. It levelled out a 3000' after a few seconds climb, when shortly thereafter Bjørn Kjos himself was allowed to fly the aircraft westerly and up to 16,000' over the mountains of Hardangervidda."

Normal Boeing ops to let non-rated / non-licensed passengers, this time in form of a CEO, have an operating seat with a cabin full of media and invited guests onboard?

[Pugilistic Animus]

and this is how people get killed...totally irresponsible

[Bumps]

Björn Kjos is indeed licensed (former ex-mil) but most likely not type rated. But if the guy in the RHS was a training Captain I don't see the problem. Doesn't Airbus or other OEM's do these kinds of demo-flights with potential buyers head of flight ops/management/chief pilots all the time? Not to mention when the PIC needs the restroom the FO is usually left alone with an FA in the LHS, albeit not flying obviously.

I suppose one could make the argument that this was unwise due to the 50 pax/press that were on board, which makes this a slightly different case than a normal VIP demo flight.

But in all honesty, I don't think it's a big deal and certainly not something to make a fuss about. If they put Bruce Dickinson up to takeoff and land an A320 w/o a type rating or sim training, or that dutch guy that was put up to land a 737 w/o even having a flying license, there's certainly no harm in letting a licensed pilot play around with a 787 at 16,000 feet. Unless, of course, the thing catches on fire. :}

[Tom the Tenor]

Just as well it was not Mr O'Leary at the controls of one of his 737-800s! Imagine the bruhaha here if it was!

[Pugilistic Animus]

Remmber that A300 crash at Aeroflot?

[west lakes]

So the view of some seems to be that on the spur of the moment a CEO "took the controls of the aircraft"?

Or

Seeing as it was a planned flight is it not just slightly possible that him "taking the controls" was carefully thought out and checks made to ensure it was completely legal and above board, particularly as there was no doubt it would be reported in the media (who were all passengers and would be aware of it)?

[fleigle]

And nowhere was it reported that he was flying from the left seat, its not like he did a barrel roll!!
:E

[vctenderness]

Willie Walsh is a qualified pilot and I think on Airbus so if he sat in the R/H seat of the new A380 on its way to LAX would that be a problem then?

[frieghtdog2000]

If the Commander is a TRIA and the other pilot has a valid licence then this is legal. Not with pax or supernumerary crew not required for the operation however. Basically this is the legal way of conducting Base Training with a non-type rated pilot.

If your CEO wants to fly it best done without the press/media/everybody else on board and certainly don't publicise it.

[Gemini Twin]

Non event. I think someone is trying to make something out of nothing.

[flyboyike]

Gotta love somebody likening an ex-military pilot CEO to a 13-year-old kid. And then getting their facts wrong, too (it was an A310).

[Pugilistic Animus]

the original post made no reference to the guy being a qualified pilot ....Sorry, 310

[B-HKD]

The Aeroflot A310 accident was caused by the captains son turning the control column and disabling the A/P lateral mode. Not only did the Captain fail to notice this, but while attempting to recover the ever increasing bank, he failed to turn off the A/P all together which would have given him full control over the aircraft again.

As they say. You live and die by the FMA.

[SMT Member]

Good for him. Am quite confident a former F-104 pilot is able to do a bank and a climb from 3 to 16 in a FBW envelope protected aircraft with all the latest bells and whistles, plus a bloke sitting next to him which I would, safely I dare say, assume is either the chief pilot, chief technical pilot or chief training ditto.

[Herod]

Hey Bumps; what's up with Bruce Dickenson? Don't know about the A320, but he is a fully qualified pilot and has operated extensively as a captain on both 737 and 757, so I don't think there would be a problem. BTW I flew with him when he was a F.O. on the 737, and he's a very professional and capable pilot, as well as being a nice guy. Don't know about Iron Maiden though: not my thing.

[parabellum]

Total non event, it wasn't a public transport flight. All USA two crew aircraft have to demonstrate to the FAA that they can be flown by one qualified pilot if necessary, required for certification purposes, Boeing make films of each aircraft SIM with one pilot doing take off, climb, approach, GA, engine failure, single engine approach and landing.

:zzz::zzz::zzz:

[latetonite]

There are still more dangerous licensed pilots flying around than non-licensed CEO's, posing for a picture in flight.

[stilton]

Fuss over nothing.


We had A CEO at Continental who was type rated on the B757 (Gordon Bethune) and used to 'take the left seat' for Aircraft deliveries.


Believe me, he wasn't in charge, there was always a Senior Check Airman from the training department baby sitting him. He was watched very closely and taken over from when necessary.


It was just publicity, a CEO that can 'fly too' !

[Flathadder]

He is probably more qualified than the majority of his new hires.

[ironbutt57]

Good grief people....as one mentioned above...there's NOBODY in the left seat when I head to my "post brekkie pee break"....

[Pugilistic Animus]

I get it now he is a pilot, from the original post there was no mention of his flight experience in the OP. I thought that a total novice was allowed to handfly from 3000 to 16000...that case would be irresponsible.

[Jimmy 16]

B.K was trained by the Royal Norwegian Air Force and the USAF, then flew the CF-104 with 334 Sqdn out of Bodø for 6 years.
He knows more about flying than most CEO's.

[Pugilistic Animus]

but was he current on anything? did he have a sim session before his flight?

[Hotel Tango]

Pugilistic get off your high horse. This is a total non event. You are just one of modern day life's trouble makers with nothing better to do but make mischief. People like you make me :yuk:. And the Aeroflot accident involved a young kid, not a responsible adult, (ex)pilot and CEO of the airline. Finally, many more fully qualified, type rated, pilots have managed to fly perfectly airworthy aircraft into the ground. I detest the expression, but for you it's worthy: Go get a life!

[Sunnyjohn]

Hey Bumps; what's up with Bruce Dickenson? Don't know about the A320, but he is a fully qualified pilot and has operated extensively as a captain on both 737 and 757, Indeed, and he's still at it:
Cardiff Aviation Limited was established in 2012 by seasoned aviation professional Mario Fulgoni, and Bruce Dickinson, vocalist with rock band Iron Maiden.
An unusual combination? Perhaps not. Mario is a former airline captain and has held senior management roles in a number of aviation businesses, including airlines and flight training.

Bruce Dickinson
Bruce Dickinson is a 7,000-hour-plus Boeing 757 captain. As well as his place in the music industry, Bruce has been a commercial pilot for 15 years – with many passengers on national carriers completely oblivious to the fact their First Officer, and then Captain, was one of the world’s most iconic rock stars.

[Bumps]

Herod, I'm not bashing Bruce or his flying abilities. I'm simply making the argument that there's no problem having a non-rated pilot at the controls with a training Captain in the other seat. As was the case with Bruce when flying the A320 with Airbus, and Björn Kjos flying the 787 with Boeing.

Now, if you really want to stir the pot check out this video of someones mother in the hot seat of a 757: My Mom Flying a Boeing 757 - YouTube

[Hotel Tango]

Also a non event. The Captain not in uniform would indicate it's not a commercial flight. What's the matter with you people? You will be no doubt horrified to know that in my 44 years in aviation I have sat either left or right seat - and occasionally even hand flown - a variety of airliners ranging from the Comet 4 to the L-1011. I have never held a pilot's licence. Before the lunatics took over the asylum this was more common an event than you could believe. I can't recall airliners falling out of the sky all over the place. There will always be one offs, but as I have already said, even those who are qualified and rated have totally stuffed it for no good reason.

[helen-damnation]

but was he current on anything? did he have a sim session before his flight?

Was he legally required to do so? :rolleyes:

Not a commercial flight, not for hire or reward, qualified person in the other seat, person who was in the seat is now a safety (monitoring) pilot etc etc.

:mad::mad::mad:

[repariit]

Boeing make films of each aircraft SIM with one pilot doing take off, climb, approach, GA, engine failure, single engine approach and landing.
I believe that such a film was made at the beginning of the 737 program with an actual flight showing an empty right seat and an engine failure on takeoff, and manual gear extension, in addition to the items in the quoted list.

[misd-agin]

Oh my goodness, someone's mom flying the airplane! That's so dangerous. ;)

The reality is she is flying at high alititude and cruise mach. That's harder than hand flying at 16,000'.

Video also shows the pitch sensitivity(look at VSI/VVI in the video), and small control movements, required at high altitude. Might be a good video to show non jet guys transitioning to jets.

Hand flying the 787 by a non-rated guy on a non-commercial flight, especially at medium altitudes? Non event.

[Pugilistic Animus]

Hotel Tango, I am not going to argue with you:zzz:

[dazdaz1]

I know it's off topic, but 'mom' looks a very attractive lady.

[DozyWannabe]

The Aeroflot A310 accident was caused by the captains son turning the control column and disabling the A/P lateral mode. Not only did the Captain fail to notice this, but while attempting to recover the ever increasing bank, he failed to turn off the A/P all together which would have given him full control over the aircraft again.

Hmm - a few salient points:

While I think said pilot held Captain rank, he was not PIC on that flight
Aeroflot A310 crews told investigators that the engagement of CWS mode by turning the yoke for 30 seconds was not covered in their training - it's likely he'd never have allowed them to touch the yoke if it was
None of the flight crew, including the PIC, batted an eyelid at allowing the kids on the flight deck and in the seat, which implies that this was not a one-off
Soviet-era jets apparently only allowed AP disconnect via the switch, and had no CWS mode
By the time the boy raised the alarm, the aircraft's bank was on the verge of generating G-forces that prevented his father from reaching the AP disconnect
The PF allowed the bank to progress, which implies he was not scanning his instruments


Ironically, even after the AP disconnected the A310 had a failsafe system which would return the aircraft to straight-and-level after an upset. All they had to do was release the yokes. The final stall was not a result of the boy's inputs, but that of the crew.

As flyboyike says though, this is a completely different matter from that being discussed on the thread.

[con-pilot]

Oh I agree that this was a terrible thing. We bought a DC-3 and just after the purchase, the boss, not a pilot at all, was allowed to get into the left seat while we were flying.

And we were all killed instantly. Had a hell of a funeral though.

All of us were killed again when he sat in the left seat of our new Falcon 50EX and then again in the new Falcon 900EX while we where in flight.

Oh shoot, I forgot the time we were all killed when I let a very good looking female TV reporter sit in the right seat of a 727 I was flying.


Some people need to get a life. :rolleyes:

[Bergerie1]

What w bl**dy great fuss about nothing. Please get real.

[KBPsen]

With 50+ people on board it was just as dumb as HT's comments.

[Avman]

:ugh: KBPsen, your the dumb one in my books. Don't know why you're picking particularly on HT. Plenty of others have more or less said the same and I agree: NO DANGER and a NON EVENT. :mad:

[KBPsen]

Thanks for that Avman. We have found a new revenue stream then. How about 5 minutes for 500 bucks? Imagine the extra income on a long-haul flight. It is after all a total non-event.

[Gemini Twin]

dazdaz1, I was thinking the same thing!:D Nice to see Mum's with extra talent.

[BARKINGMAD]

Great news!!!

The gaffer gets outa the office and down to the shop floor to see what it's like?

Pity a few more don't do the same, except they have to do it for 1 month of my (or any other line dog's roster), follow me everywhere except the crapper and my bed, sweat with me on the tarmac at RAK in 40c heat and do the externals whilst standing in/near the packs exhaust, shadow me in the bumpy van-with-seats ride to outstations and back pre and post flight, get the same "rest" and be on the go for the same duty hours permitted by our (foreign) FTLs, eat the same crew food, no more and no less, go to sleep at 0500 in a strange bed disturbed all day by the crew disturbance unit a k a "housekeeping", and be bright as a button at the end of it, well able to perform in the latest HR aptitude tests which are this year's flavour!!!!

And if he/she is still on their feet and compus mentus at the end of it, then they are qualified to dictate what we are supposed to be capable of.

BRILLIANT IDEA.

Any takers from the CEOs out there?? :rolleyes:

[Checkboard]

It is about a corporate culture of the normalisation of deviance. :hmm:

[Evelyn Higginbottom]

Any takers from the CEOs out there??

Unlikely. Most are too scared!

[BARKINGMAD]

I extend the invitation and the challenge to the wise men in EASA who are formulating how long we may rest and work before we may legally fall asleep in the flightdeck whilst "on watch"!!

[bubbers44]

We did jet training all the time when I was flight instructing with a plane load full of students in a Lear or Citation jet. No one but the instructor on the first flight had ever flown it before and it was totally legal and known by our FAA. An airliner not on a commercial flight wouldn't be any different in my opinion.

[PJ2]

Checkboard;
It is about a corporate culture of the normalisation of deviance. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gifOf course it is.

The brisk demonstrations and rhetorical questions regarding "no harm done" are beside the point. The statements and defence of this inappropriate privileging of non-crew members remind me of a Director of Safety who, in a response to a very hard landing seen in the FOQA data dismissed the data with the observation that such events occurred on earlier equipment before FOQA and we never knew then and nothing happened so there's no need to do anything with such data now, (ostensibly because it would ground the airplane for a check when no crew reported the hard landing...).

Things have changed since then and so should they in terms of such voluntary exposures to risk, even as light as this silly demonstration of the quality of judgement of those involved is.

Of course the risk is low as it is in most ops today and of course it was done thousands of times. I have a newspaper photograph of a 'stew' on the lap of a pilot from the early '60's with a suitable story printed beside it.

The industry's safety record is exceptional, the fatal accident rate enviably low for the very reasons that people here are wondering out loud about the dumb priorities of an organization or an individual operation that would place non-pilots, or non-endorsed pilots in the seat whether they flew X-plane or were endorsed on F-18's or whatever.

But people will obviously continue to do this, given the available comments here.

[DozyWannabe]

The statements and defence of this inappropriate privileging of non-crew members...

Hi PJ2,

You know normally I'm four-square behind you, however on this occasion I think a little leeway shouldn't be out of the question. As others have pointed out, this guy *is* a licensed pilot, the flight was a press/corporate jolly rather than a scheduled service and the pilot in the opposite seat was a training captain. Therefore the question I have is - what's your definition of "inappropriate"?

The way I see it, if Norwegian regs weren't violated, conditions were good, the PIC was properly prepared and briefed - and judged the risk to be minimal - then I'm inclined to see it as a non-issue (and you know what a stickler I am for safety!).

[EEngr]

A CEO actually taking control of an aircraft? We don't even let our pilots do that.;)

Ok, I'll get my coat.

[bubbers44]

EE,that was funny but so true. He probably did better than the new hires with sim check outs because he knew how to hand fly.

[PJ2]

Dozy;

Re no regs broken, well, if "the regs" are to be our only guide in terms of airmanship and good sense, one weeps.

The CEO's not endorsed, period; I find it tough to believe that there isn't some law against that.

FTR, I don't believe there is a high risk in this particular operation. Nor am I a regulatory guy, a frowning classroom monitor like the pompous eagle character on The Muppets. Nor am I even flying for a living now with all that goes with what is stuffed into pilots in the name of "procedures" these days and where common sense in flying an airplane has long since vacated the fix. All of what you point out was very likely in place and had anything gone wrong the guy in the right seat would have taken over while the seat exchange took place, etc.

Risky? You betcha, but a good outcome is very likely, (until/unless the inexperienced guy kicks/pushes/trips-falls-on something...)

That "nothing happened" is clearly not a supporting argument. Anyone unendorsed (and therefore untrained on type), or an unendorsed but current pilot who is in the front seat is a risk, period. Under the circumstances, I think it's just flying-club behaviour, and we're trying to grow away from that. What's it prove?

Ironically, it happens and will continue to happen because of best things about the pilot community - comradeship - we all want to share the genuine thrill and passion of what we love to do especially when it is a beautiful airplane, but for heaven's sake don't argue the case for doing so, because it can't be argued.

Re, "A CEO actually taking control of an aircraft? We don't even let our pilots do that." - EEngr

Now that is very funny.

[bubbers44]

Taking up non paying passengers in an aircraft does not require a crew certified to fly paying passengers. It has always been that way and hopefully always will. Read the regulations. They did everything right and that is the end of the story. Everything was perfectly legal.

[777AV8R]

Yup...if it was a Non-Commercial flight, the rules change. Regs are made for the Commercial operators, although this all might change with the new EASA regs. As long as no money changed hands and nobody was charged, its a Private flight and who cares? That said, there are ethics and common sense involved...but...

[His dudeness]

Things have changed since then and so should they in terms of such voluntary exposures to risk, even as light as this silly demonstration of the quality of judgement of those involved is.

Of course the risk is low as it is in most ops today and of course it was done thousands of times.

This mindset is the most upsetting thing (to me only, of course)!

How can we EVER let a student take control of an aircraft then ???

Don´t you dare and argue against that, because then you are promoting unsafe things. (In my mind, a student is more dangerous than a F-18 fighter pilot - only if the F-18 is not armed of course)


The industry's safety record is exceptional, the fatal accident rate enviably low for the very reasons that people here are wondering out loud about the dumb priorities of an organization or an individual operation that would place non-pilots, or non-endorsed pilots in the seat whether they flew X-plane or were endorsed on F-18's or whatever.

Thats bull:mad: and judging from your posts that I have read in the past, you know it.

We in the "western world" are way to afraid, (knowadays we are afraid of being afraid) and way to much in favour of regulations these days. If you honestly think we can regulate every and anything to make things safe, then you are wrong.

If this dude is/was a fully qualified pilot, then it is COMPLETELY different than the Aeroflot story.

Btw. if a training captain in the right seat can´t do anything to keep the airplane safe, than I fail to see how supervision can be done. It must be unsafe then.

The regulations-forbid-it-brigade have got it wrong. (it might be forbidden what they did, but it isn´t in any way, shape or form dangerous)

[Trackdiamond]

I agree...in controlled circumstances it is benign.

Back in 1989, I was a Fleet Planner for a major airline in their Corporate Plañning division.I had numerous liaisons with the aircrft manufturer as my duty called and had intimate technical aNd operational knowledge and had flown but did not have a PPL yet.I was alao a qualified Avionic Engineer.I was planning to. ThswOn a deitch careers to flying the following year.The plane we shortlisted came for a demo.with journalists and other dignitaries.On board was a test pilot and a very experienced co-pilot.From taxin take off and climb I was allowed to sit on the copilot's set and the FO took the jumpseat between us.It was a DEMO...I don't remember touching any control till we were well in the climb to a low level cruise when I was invited to feel the controls.It was a FBW type. It felt like being in a simulator(which I had experienced till that occasion).

Yes it was a major surprise but no horns were blown and it was done in broad day light and even some members of the public observed it...in the cabin was a cocktail party.No big deal really!

[hifly787]

Total Controlled Non Event! Remember the other recent thread . This was safer than both dozing off with passengers on board.

[SLFguy]

Remember the other recent thread . This was safer than both dozing off with passengers on board.

Lordy! Thread has just landed at Stupidville.

[Methersgate]

Used to work for a chap who flew a DC3 into Kai Tak because he was presenting Cathay's first ever aircraft to the Hong Kong Science Museum. Don't recall anyone saying anything. Cannot remember if that was before or after he sold the Spitfire and bought the DH Rapide ("one engine bad, two engines good", according to his key man insurers...)

[Sikpilot]

At least they were both awake!!!!!

Airline pilots asleep in the cockpit during long-haul flight - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/10335427/Airline-pilots-asleep-in-the-cockpit-during-long-haul-flight.html)

[Yancey Slide]

"At least they were both awake"

There's a whole thread on that elsewhere...

[KBPsen]

I would like to see how those who think it was acceptable and a non-event explain to those 50+ passengers on board how it is justifiable to subject them to a lesser standard of operation simply because they didn't pay for their ticket.

The passengers had every reason and right to expect the flight to be operated as any other commercial flight would.

[Teldorserious]

So would you want him at the controls or one of the pay to fly or 200 hr ab initio robots?

[sky9]

I seem to think that a Test Pilot with the old De Havilland only had a PPL.
But then my memory might be playing up, or was it just hear-say?

[Prober]

Sky9
I think you are right. And, BTW, what a pathetic thread!:*

[TWT]

Having 2 qualified and type rated pilots up front on a non-revenue media/demo flight doesn't guarantee that the aircraft will make it back in one piece either judging from a recent event.Storm in a teacup !

[A and C]

A very small storm in a very small tea cup...........what is Pprune coming too ?

[latetonite]

Every CEO of an airline should have a few hours at the controls, at the back side of the clock and in thunderstorm weather.

[flyboyike]

The CEO's not endorsed, period; I find it tough to believe that there isn't some law against that.


Thank God there isn't, we've got more than plenty of laws and regulations.

[MATELO]

The question should be, did he stay awake ?? :bored:

[FlightCosting]

When doing demo flights for prospective customer airlines during the 70's and 80's when working for Fokker And SAAB, it was common practice to let senior airline executives take the RHS. In Bolivia, I remember an Air force General thinking he was doing a single engine takeoff from last Paz. He did not have control but a little bit of flattery helps sell aircraft.

[KBPsen]

I suppose irrelevant responses was the best one could hope for. That is what pprune has become, A and C.

[DozyWannabe]

If it helps any, I'll bite.

The "passengers" would all have been invited press representatives and dignitaries, all of whom would likely have been well aware of the order of proceedings before they left. Indeed, we'd be in blissful ignorance if at least one of them had not written the event up.