Four Medals of Honor.....Two Sad Days!

[SASless]

Recent news a US Army Captain shall be awarded a Medal of Honor for combat action in Afghanistan. That is two Actions that resulted in the award of Two MOH's each.

All are for extraordinary conduct under fire by Soldiers in combat actions that were the direct result of shameful decisions by more senior commanders that directly led to the wounding and deaths of the Soldiers and Marines who did the fighting.

I refer to FOB Keating which had been located in an unsound tactical position and to the ambush of forces near Ganjal where senior commanders denied the use of supporting fires and did not send help to the unit in contact.

It right and fitting we honor such courage but why do we not punish those who are the cause for such Men to pay such a heavy price in blood?

Former Army Capt. Will Swenson to receive Medal of Honor for heroics in Afghanistan | Army Times | armytimes.com (http://www.armytimes.com/article/20130916/NEWS/309160038/Former-Army-Capt-Will-Swenson-receive-Medal-Honor-heroics-Afghanistan)

[Tankertrashnav]

This has prompted me to look up some statistics on the Medal of Honor. I see that since its creation, fewer than 3,500 have been awarded, over 1,500 of which were in the Civil War. The source I checked stated that only two had to date been awarded for Afghanistan, presumably that figure predates the above incident.

There is no doubt that the Medal of Honor deserves its reputation as being at the very pinnacle of military awards, sharing that position with the Victoria Cross. Certainly the Victoria Cross has been awarded fewer times since 1856 (1357 awards) but given the greater size of the US military, this is perhaps not surprising.

My congratulations to Captain Swenson and Sergeant Meyer - and a salute to both!

[SASless]

I think this list is complete less the latest award I referenced in my original post.



Medal of Honor Recipients - Afghanistan (http://www.history.army.mil/moh/afghanistan.html)


My Grand Father, as a Private in the US Army during the Philippine Insurrection (1898) was nominated for the MOH and wound up receiving the DSC. Had he been an Officer he would have gotten the Medal. One of my Cousin's Sons is doing his second combat tour in Afghanistan with the Army SF.

I told him not to try to live up to his Great Grandfather's example.....and just do the job and come home safe.


We are so fortunate to have people with such courage serving in our military.....including the UK Forces as well. Those that earn the Victoria Cross also deserve our admiration and respect.

[ColinB]

I am always in awe of the fortitude and valour shown by MoH recipients and many of their actions defy credibility.
It is also sad that this lead story should be printed at the same time as the second lead Bragg soldier arrested for making porn with dogs | Army Times | armytimes.com (http://www.armytimes.com/article/20130916/NEWS06/309160035/Bragg-soldier-arrested-for-making-porn-with-dogs)

[500N]

SaSless

Jesus, they unload in that Army times areticle on the front page re the Officers.

1. Letter of reprimand !
2. Officer back at HQ, "Didn't think the ambush was as bad as it was" ! :rolleyes:
3. Denied indirect fire support !

I see Meyer unloaded on them as well !


Anyway, good to see all the families will be attending.

[4ROCK]

Could have done with these guys in Srebrenica..................

[Lonewolf_50]

I had a sobering conversation with an A-10 squadron skipper a few days after a dust up in the hills of Afghanistan, back in another lifetime.
Neither he nor I were near the location of combat at the time, we were back somewhere else in the rear, as they say.

The call for fire support came, the A-10's were overhead not long after the firefight had commenced. The RoE for air to ground engagements were so tight the FAC (JTAC) was unable to call in the air delivered munitions for concern of possible casualties that weren't the unfriendlies. Firefight eventually ended. CAS eventually RTB.

The pilots came back to the squadron disturbed and upset (he was there at their mission debrief). I got to talk to them over a secure net. All I could do was acknowledge their being there, and was not able to answer why weapons tight remained the call beyond "JTAC could not meet the RoE." I suspect the JTAC and his unit were hot enough to burn metal with their hands, before it was all over, given how the RoE had been set up.

The CO came to find me when he was at our location. By the time we were done discussing it all, we were in the mood to set fire to a few politicians and JAG sorts. :mad:

Four Coalition casualties from that firefight, RIP, even with CAS available but not usable thanks to an RoE that was so tight it squeaked.

It's enough to drive you to drink.

[SASless]

When brave men are dying.....screw the ROE's and take your lumps. The Military does not want the negative publicity a Court Martial would bring....remembering any NJP can be appealed to a Court Martial by the individual being administered the punishment.

Be careful how you apply your firepower.....but get the support to the Troops they need and deserve.

If we are going to commit the Troops to the fight....we owe it to them to provide them every asset possible to ensure their safety and tactical supremacy over the enemy.

I have been calling for bringing all the Lads and Lasses home.....declare Victory and depart immediately.

[glad rag]

I had a sobering conversation with an A-10 squadron skipper a few days after a dust up in the hills of Afghanistan, back in another lifetime.
Neither he nor I were near the location of combat at the time, we were back somewhere else in the rear, as they say.

The call for fire support came, the A-10's were overhead not long after the firefight had commenced. The RoE for air to ground engagements were so tight the FAC (JTAC) was unable to call in the air delivered munitions for concern of possible casualties that weren't the unfriendlies. Firefight eventually ended. CAS eventually RTB.

The pilots came back to the squadron disturbed and upset (he was there at their mission debrief). I got to talk to them over a secure net. All I could do was acknowledge their being there, and was not able to answer why weapons tight remained the call beyond "JTAC could not meet the RoE." I suspect the JTAC and his unit were hot enough to burn metal with their hands, before it was all over, given how the RoE had been set up.

The CO came to find me when he was at our location. By the time we were done discussing it all, we were in the mood to set fire to a few politicians and JAG sorts. :mad:

Four Coalition casualties from that firefight, RIP, even with CAS available but not usable thanks to an RoE that was so tight it squeaked.



RIP. "set fire to a few politicians " you got that DH'd.

[alfred_the_great]

I know this will make me as popular as a fart in a space suit, but the ROE exists for a reason, and it is generally a sound reason.

Whilst we will never know how it may've turned out with CAS, we (the Coalition) killed the fewest possible non-combatants that day by not using CAS.

We serve with an unlimited liability, and sometimes that means we have people killed. The Mission is generally more important than an individual.

[500N]

Alfred

I know we don't have the intricate details of the battle but

- on the ground, you had a US Army Capt, a Marine Lt,
a US Army Staff Sgt, and probably a few other senior NCO's.
We aren't talking a Cpl with a Section who hadn't seen battle before
so why are people in the rear second guessing an experienced ground
commander ?

- As it says in the article, they had already fired a few rounds of Arty
in support but it stopped. Capt Swenson couldn't understand why.

- Isn't that why you have people - Officers, NCO's trained
in requesting fire support or acting as FAC's ?

- Why train them if you don't then believe what they are
saying over the radio ? They know what the ROE's are,
they know the danger limits etc.

And I am still amazed that all they got was a Letter of reprimand
unless of course that is enough to kill off any career in the military.

Add the above action to the other action at the outpost,
two major CF's in one month at a large cost in lives.

[MightyGem]

Congratulations to the good Captain and his Sergeant. :D

[Shack37]

Do we have to have posts about some pervert in the same thread as men awarded the MoH?

[500N]

And not once but twice !

[NutLoose]

Agreed I'd read the Bragg article too but thought it was not the place and time to mention it.


Alfred I can see what you are saying re Rules of Engagement but at the end of the day the call has to go to the man on the ground, as he says

“When I’m being second-guessed by higher or somebody that’s sitting in an air-conditioned TOC, why [the] hell am I even out there in the first place?” Swenson told investigators, according to redacted documents reviewed by Military Times. “Let’s sit back and play Nintendo. I am the ground commander. I want that f---er, and I am willing to accept the consequences of that f---er.”



Therefore as the man on the ground assessing the situation and taking responsibility for his decision, one would have thought that should never be overidden.

You then have to weigh up the decision to award the letters of reprimand, if as said they had followed the rules of engagement to the letter, why was a letter that could destroy their careers issued?
We do not know the full story and never will, but it does sound like a bit of being put up as scapegoats for following the rules imposed on them, because lives were lost they got the blame foisted upon them. Far worse than some bit of paper, they will have to live with that decision for the rest of their lives.

[GreenKnight121]

Or, it sounds like the ROE DID allow for the fire support/CAS to be employed and they decided not to allow it because they either didn't believe the men on the ground or didn't understand the ROE they were supposed to be following.

[500N]

Green

They didn't believe the men / man on the ground as clearly stated.

What gets me is an average situation - ambush, contact, counter ambush drill
can turn to absolute shyte or can turn in your favour just by a few rounds
of fire support of whatever kind - arty, mortars, SFMG or anything from
the air, just enough to allow you to get on the front foot where you start
to dictate the terms.

So the people back at base allowed a bad situation to turn to shyte
very quickly.

[Chugalug2]

Same situation for the Brits in Aden. Ambushed by Flosy or NLF they had to seek permission from Whitehall before putting a 105mm or anything larger than .303 into the buildings from which the ambush came. Given the state of 1960s comms and the ROE, invariably it was not forthcoming. Thus are "limited" wars. It's best to avoid them just as much as other people's civil wars.

[500N]

I was watching a contact of Aussie troops in Afghan, the one where
one of the soldiers lost his life and one won a VC plus others other medals.

They all said the same thing, needed support earlier and pref from the air
as in AH.

It is unlikely to have saved the soldier as he was hit early on but the
rest of the fight that went on for ages ..............

[glojo]

It certainly does not make pleasant reading and much respect must go to the guys on the ground who sadly paid the ultimate price.

A few folks have quite correctly pointed out how we are not in possession of all the facts and I will add myself to that list.

I note these brave soldiers were 'instructors' trainers or advisers.. You pays your money and takes your pick over the terminology but this type of role has been going on for many, many years and usually we the general public have no idea of where we have 'boots on the ground'

Could it be that those we are being so critical of were simply not in the loop? They had absolutely no idea that there were US forces on the ground, they had no idea these US forces were genuine? I am playing devils advocate and it is easy to say that when we have folks screaming for instant air support, we should go in with all guns blazing but that decision is only easy when we are sat in our nice, comfortable armchairs, several thousands of miles away from that awful situation.

This is definitely not the first time that 'advisers' have come under enemy fire and have paid the ultimate price but in times gone by they would have simply died on a 'training exercise' No medals, no acknowledgement of their brave deeds, just a short sentence saying how they died whilst on a training exercise and the next of kin have been informed! at least these brave souls have been recognised and rewarded for their valour.

Those that refused to send that requested support have to live with that decision and if they are decent human beings, that is not going to be an easy cross to bear.

I salute those brave soldiers
John

[500N]

Glojo

I think you need to read some of the write ups on line
and possibly Meyers book.

Especially regarding who "they" were you suggest were not in the loop.

CAS was NOT available for the mission and they knew that beforehand
but AH on 5 minutes call were available from nearby but when requested,
were tied up in another contact. When they did turn up it helped turn the
battle. Arty support was on call.

The only other thing is, this was not a quick battle, I think it
lasted 9 hours in total. You can't tell me that a Commander
can under estimate the contact if it is going on for 9 hours ???

[SASless]

The Letters of Reprimand certainly killed their Careers.....and rightfully so.

How many incredibly bad decisions made by commanders way up the Chain do we have to experience before we realize the Troops in Contact have the best view of what they need to survive an engagement?

Some Air Force ex-C-130 pilot in Oman is not equipped to make the decision on whether an Army Medevac Helicopter flies to Troops in Contact in remote Afghanistan. That has happened before and Jason Cunningham bled to death waiting for the helicopter that finally arrived nine hours after he was wounded at Takur Ghar on what became known as Robert's Ridge.

That a separate SF chain of command was directly observing the engagement from nearby locations and was telling the Air Force commander it was safe as were the engaged troops.....makes it all the more problematical.

ROE's are there to protect non-combatants......firepower is there to save our own Troops who are engaged in combat with an armed enemy. Our Troops come first in my view....and should be given as much support as is possible. That way the Bad Guys know they shall (imperative tense) get hit by overwhelming firepower every time they attack our forces. How else do we convince them to stay home and drink their Tea?

[GreenKnight121]

Back to the MOH winners... in previously-unreleased video from the soldiers' helmet-cams, Captain Swenson shows why he risked himself that day.

Medal of Honor winner shows bravery, tenderness - CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57603788/medal-of-honor-winner-shows-bravery-tenderness/)

Sgt. First Class Kenneth Westbrook had been hit in the throat and was bleeding to death. Swenson and a medic helped Westbrook to the helicopter. Then, amid the hell of combat, something beautiful happened.

"Sgt. Westbrook kind of leaned down and Capt. Swenson kind of leaned down and they had, they kind of looked at each other and it appeared that they were talking, but Capt. Swenson kissed him on the forehead and then tapped the side of his head," said Sgt. Kevin Duerst of the California National Guard, the crew chief of a medevac helicopter that flew into the valley.

Stop the action and you can see it clearly.

"It was the brotherhood," Duerst said. "It was your buddy is getting put onto a medevac helicopter and you're going to have to wait to see him for a couple hours. He's going to go back to the hospital and when you're done with your battle, then you'll see him."
But Swenson never saw Westbrook again. The medevac got him to a field hospital in time for a life-saving transfusion, but 29 days later he died of complications.

"This guy had four broken ribs, a punctured lung, a shattered left shoulder," said Westbrook's widow, Charlene Westbrook. "He had a shot on his neck which went through his aorta so he was bleeding pretty heavily."

She did not see this video of her husband's final battle -- did not even know it existed -- until the medevac crew presented it to her this spring.

"The first time I watched it was so emotional and I just, I cried," she said. "It was the hardest thing to watch."

After loading Westbrook aboard the medevac, Swenson went back into the battle. When Deurst and his medevac team returned to pick up more casualties, they found Swenson further up the valley, even more exposed to enemy fire, aiding wounded Afghan soldiers and searching for four missing Americans.

"He did things that nobody else would ever do and he did it for his guys and for everybody on the ground, to get them out," Duerst said.

Duerst's medevac left before Swenson performed his final act of courage -- going forward under fire to recover the bodies of those four missing Americans.

The army's official account makes no mention of the kiss Swenson gave his doomed sergeant. But that one act explains everything about why soldiers fight. They fight for each other.

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

[SASless]

Sadly,

There are a great number of similar acts that go unrewarded.

We are blessed to have such Men who will stand up when needed.

US Army Aviation's Motto is "Above the Best".....meaning the "Best" are the guys on the ground taking the fight to the enemy.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Not sure if this will work. But here goes:

YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/)

[500N]

Link just goes to Youtube, No video specified.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Not so.

If you type into the search bar 'S/Sgt Meyer' you will find as much as you want to watch including the presentation at the White House yesterday.

Beware! Its all very moving and VERY much a fitting tribute to a man who went back back FIVE times to rescue his mates when he was only 21. A real hero.

Captain Swenson is next and I look forward to that. I rather fancy there is some disgrace about that is going to be hard to hide.

PPP

[NutLoose]

Presentation


Medal of Honor for Sergeant Dakota L. Meyer - YouTube

[500N]

"Captain Swenson is next and I look forward to that."

Agree. Especially since Meyer made the case in his book.

"I rather fancy there is some disgrace about that is going to be hard to hide."

Possibly, although reading around it seems the dirty laundry
has been aired already by very senior people so maybe no need
to mention it at the ceremony ?

Still hard to believe they "lost" the paperwork :ugh:

[SASless]

Afghan translator of Medal of Honor recipient Dakota Meyer caught in bureaucratic limbo | Washington Free Beacon (http://freebeacon.com/the-abandoned/)


This is how we treat courageous Afghani's who also do some heroic things in support of our Soldiers and Marines.

[500N]

SaSless

Isn't the State department a law unto itself ?

That's the way it has always seemed to me
as well as always protecting their castle.


You would think that with all those recommendations
someone would have flagged it as being important.

[SASless]

The Attack on Camp Bastion that resulted in the killing of two Marines and the destruction of six Harriers has caused two USMC Generals to be Retired.

2 generals forced to retire for Afghan breach (http://news.yahoo.com/2-generals-forced-retire-afghan-breach-215517204--politics.html)

[GreenKnight121]

Kudos to General Amos for that.

Maj. Gen. Charles M. Gurganus in particular sounds like he went "ROAD".

ROAD = Retired On Active Duty... and is Marine slang for someone who stops doing his job long before his actual retirement date.

[Lightning5]

1983 on my B767maintenance course the EICAS instructor was a MOH recipient, Joe Jackson . He earned his in Vietnam flying C123's. Reading his citation gives you a good insight into flying in those days. A true gentleman, and I believe still going strong, retired of course!

[SASless]

CMOHS.org - Lieutenant Colonel JACKSON, JOE M., U.S. Air Force (http://www.cmohs.org/recipient-detail/3310/jackson-joe-m.php)

One of the Air Force Combat Controllers that Jackson hauled out that day was Mort Friedman who I knew in the Philippines. Mort was the Senior NCO in the Combat Control Unit at Clark AFB.

We did a lot of scuba diving together and shared many a Pint.

A real Warrior he was.

Mort?s Rescue at Kham Duc | Flying in Crosswinds (http://tonetcarlo.wordpress.com/2008/05/12/morts-rescue-at-kham-duc/)


The Chinooks mentioned in the article belonged to my first Chinook Unit....the 178th Boxcars based out of Chu Lai AFB.

[PPRuNe Pop]

At a ceremony former Captain William Swenson was bestowed his Medal of Honor at the White House.

Video footage captured from cameras mounted on the helmets of the helicopter pilots showed Captain Swenson delivering a severely wounded soldier to the helicopter and placing a kiss on his head.

Captain Swenson has asked to return to active duty, and the Army is working to allow it.

Makes one feel good that people like William Swenson live on this planet of ours. There are many more to come - no doubt. But how did his 'application' get lost?

WASHINGTON: Obama to award ‘lost’ Medal of Honor to former Army captain | White House | McClatchy DC (http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/09/16/202312/obama-to-award-lost-medal-of-honor.html)

[500N]

"The Army captain left the military in February 2011 and has since been unemployed. Swenson hopes to return to service, a rare move for a Medal recipient. His request is currently under review.

Is it strange that an Army Officer with a good service record can't get a job in the US for 2 years ?

[SASless]

Despite the Media and Obama's claims....things are not very good for returning Veterans currently.

Combat Infantry skill sets do not transfer well into the civilian market place.

The guy is in his late 30's returning from Afghanistan and having to seek out employment with no recent experience in a particular trade, profession, or skill.

Tis always been thus.....and always shall be.

The Army cutting 80,000 Soldiers to meet budget cuts.....even they are very slow in hiring.....or re-hiring. They are looking for reasons to cut folks and just trying to re-enlist while already on Active Duty is not assured.

Obama Economic policies and the Congress being useless in all regards is causing lots of problems.

Add in the negative effect Obamacare is having on the Employment decisions of businesses and it really gets hard for anyone to find a good paying FULL TIME job.

[SASless]

Who writes and signs these Letters from Obama to the Parents of our Military who are Killed in Action?

Dear Steve

No wonder the letter got returned as it did!


https://scontent-b-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/1391594_247729912047553_1188997260_n.jpg

[500N]

"Who writes and signs these Letters"

Unlike the previous Sec of Def, this was probably signed by a machine.


Re the two MOH's, Meyer and Swenson, the way that article read it came across to me that Meyer was incorrectly given the MOH and the US Mil are investigating it.

Am I mis reading it ?