Brisbane Storm

[kiwicave]

I flew into Brisbane Airport from Singapore last night as a passenger at the height of a storm at around 21:15. It was extremely turbulent and a lot of passengers were distressed. I am not a pilot and I was wondering what options the Captain would have had with regard to holding until the storm had passed over the airport. When we landed there was a delay anyway as the ground staff could not approach the aircraft with the storm warning system active.

[Hobo]

Probably this (http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/severe-weather-warning-issued-for-southern-queensland-including-hailstones-strong-winds/story-fnihsrf2-1226720368602) lot.

[Tee Emm]

I flew into Brisbane Airport from Singapore last night as a passenger at the height of a storm at around 21:15

Sometimes depends on the airline. Some overseas operators barge through storms with seemingly reckless disregard for the safety of the aircraft and its occupants. A cultural thing? Maybe. Others do the sensible thing and hold clear until safe to land. And don't say it doesn't happen because it bloody well does.

[B772]

Which Airline and what Aircraft type ?

[perantau]

How long a plane can hold depends on the rules that govern the airline's fuel policy. Some have plenty to wait out a storm, others may have to consider other options sooner.

[Akali Dal]

I am not a pilot and I was wondering what options the Captain would have had with regard to holding until the storm had passed over the airport. When we landed there was a delay anyway as the ground staff could not approach the aircraft with the storm warning system active.

Maybe three options :

A) Drop anchor and hold over Breakfast Creek until it all blow over.

B) Pull over into the emergency lane at Lone Pine and wait till it all blow over.

C) Divert to Cairns, step down and enjoy a sip at the Esplanade.

[1Charlie]

UAE432 from Singapore flew right through the gust front at about 500 feet on final. I'm surprised they decided to continue with the approach as they landed with about 2000m vis and 15 knots tailwind on a very wet runway that hasn't been grooved yet after resurfacing. There were a number of light aircraft that also landed amidst lightning strikes.

[EK_Bus Driver]

Probably didn't have the holding fuel.

Overseas operators can disregard the requirements for holding fuel for Thunderstorms. Yep I know it's stupid! But it's in the manual. :rolleyes:

[chuboy]

I was putting my rubbish bins out at about 9:15-9:30pm that night, it was really bucketing down with plenty of storm activity. I was drenched walking to my street curb. I saw Emirates and heard a few others go over in that time as I live under the approach path to 01, boy I can certainly say I don't envy you. It would have been a very bumpy ride indeed.

[Capn Bloggs]

How long a plane can hold depends on the rules that govern the airline's fuel policy
How long a plane holds depends on THE CAPTAIN's fuel policy.

[LeadSled]

And don't say it doesn't happen because it bloody well does.

Too true, but I won't name manes, because I don't want to get sued.

Overseas operators can disregard the requirements for holding fuel for Thunderstorms. Yep I know it's stupid! But it's in the manual.

If you are holding an alternate!

[happyfarm]

How long a plane can hold depends on the rules that govern the airline's fuel policy
How long a plane holds depends on THE CAPTAIN's fuel policy.

Not every Capt in the world has the freedom to order whatever fuel they like.

[oicur12.again]

"How long a plane holds depends on THE CAPTAIN's fuel policy."

Not so in many airlines.

A lot of longhaulers roll up in oz skies with a fuel policy that pretty much ignores the captains "policy".

[Mister Warning]

Bullcrap. Every airline in the world leaves the fuel decision to the Captain. Their policy may be more restrictive, but if the weather or traffic or whatever require more fuel, the Captain is PIC, not the company.

[oicur12.again]

"Bullcrap. Every airline....."

Sorry son, I didn't realize you have flown for "every airline".

[Mister Warning]

Tell me one airline where management can over-ride a Captain's decision on uplift.

[framer]

There are Airlines in some places where you could end up in jail if you crossed the wrong manager ( ie a manager who is affiliated with the party).
I don't think the Captains in some countries with strong dictatorships or militant communist systems would necessarily have much freedom to up their fuel.

[Dynasty Trash Hauler]

mister warning

big call of you my friend. I have flown for several airlines in Asia and one in the US where it would be coffee and dunkin donuts for carrying much more gas than dispatch note.

[Mach E Avelli]

Framer is right.

Every ICAO-compliant operations manual ever written will say that the captain has ultimate authority, and indeed he does. Particularly when the fertilizer hits the N1 rotor. But in certain dictatorships and half-arsed democracies, if some management wallah wants minimum fuel for maximum payload, or has published a schedule that stretches the jet's range, a pilot wishing to over ride this would soon be unemployed at the very least.
Said pilot may get away with one diversion with no more than tea and bickies and maybe a suspension, but, knowing this, he would not want to be the only one on that day who diverted. So, then it's a case of who will break ranks first. Who is the pussy? Whose balls are big enough to defy management?

ICAO does not assist pilots in jail, or run an employment agency.

In the bad old days, ATC would often close an aerodrome. They can still do this, but rarely do. Whether they should is debatable, but it would certainly force those who turn up on our shores with minimum fuel to divert while still able to. Or declare a fuel emergency. If a pattern emerged with a particular operator, they could then be shut out of our skies.

[EK_Bus Driver]

Framer is spot on!

EK always carry an alternate. The alternate for YBBN is YBCG! The alternate for YMML is YMAV. Not much holding fuel - especially if there are storms!!

The company policy is to take the OFP minimum fuel. If you take more than that they will hunt you down and gut you like a fish, same same if you run out of fuel.. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. Most guys will take the view that it's "the Company's train set"... If you park their plane in Katmandu because you couldn't get in to kalgoorlie and have run out of duty...then so be it! Not a good attitude I know, but the Company now "reaps what they sow".

[B772]

Mister Warning. No doubt it may come as a shock to you but I can assure you as a simple driver you have little authority when your contract is not renewed or you have a difficult proficiency check.

[Wally Mk2]

Gee it's a worry reading thru these posts where the holes are getting close to lining up in the cheese.
One has to wonder standing there in the coroners court waving yr OFP about saying I was 'legal' whether that would cut it with a long list of grieving family members sitting behind you.

I also wonder if it will take a smoking hole in the ground b4 the boffins whom promulgate these idiotic idea's of min fuel always see the reasons why Capt's are given this ultimate authority to carry fuel as they see fit

The recent YMIA little fiasco is the perfect precursor to something very nasty, crazy that we humans only learn by our mistakes & only for a brief time as we soon fall back into old habits.

Intimidation now runs rife in the Airline industry, Christ what have we gotten ourselves into here?

Wmk2

[Zapatas Blood]

Even if policy dictates that the skipper is free to have the final word, in MANY places this does not happen in practice and subtle pressure is there to carry min gas. It works, there are tons of guys out there that are s%#* scared of the boss and will "do the right thing". MANY accidents, especially coming a cropper landing during a TS, are the direct result of not having plan B up the sleeve.

Industry DOES NOT CARE.

Fatigue, training, fuel carriage.......

[Capn Rex Havoc]

I am sure the Emirates crew had fuel for an Alternate. They are professional pilots, who have flown to many destinations beset by thunderstorms. Indeed every flight to India in the monsoon, challenges aircrew with weather. Not to mention Africa, China, Thailand,Malaysia etc etc. So the fact that the EK flight landed in Brisbane successfully, means that the crew felt the conditions were acceptable to conduct the approach and landing.

[chuboy]

EK has diverted to OOL before, so at least one crew will divert if they have to :E
Though I believe they were also affected by the storm that night.

[clear to land]

1 Charlie-777 FCOM allows 15kts T/W, EK Ops do not differentiate for grooved RWYS (considered not to exist due to poor maintenance in many destinations),OPT has wet and contaminated calculations and 2000m well above even Cat I minimums. As long as no PWS or IWS which require avoidance/escape then, although clearly not a nice night out, no real problem.

[1Charlie]

The blazing red and black on the wx radar didn't scare them either!

[donpizmeov]

See Birdie, there you go mentioning facts and upsetting all the ATC/East coast Oz flyer types. Overseas airlines do carry ALTNs, and holding. It would seem that it is only the Oz based ones that find the whole ATLN thing too hard to do.
So I guess the whole outcome here is that the approach was bumpy, and someone got wet putting their garbage out...did I miss anything?

The Don

[Desert Dawg]

Hey Don..

Spot on Mate..!:ok:

[Wally Mk2]

Good one 'Don':-) Sounds a bit like the comment from a well known movie.........a bunch of guys got killed & we got laid...............did I miss anything?:E
Now I wonder whom might be able to guess what movie b4 this thread gets slammed shut!:-)

Wmk2

[oicur12.again]

"Overseas airlines do carry ALTNs, and holding..."

Alternate yes, holding, maybe not. Depends on the country and airline.

I have flown with several carriers in Asia that will file a CLOSE alternate and ZERO holding in heavy thunderstorms.

[ANCPER]

When I was overseas T/S could be ignored unless it resulted in vis/cld base going below Dest/Altn planning minima. Until about 7 yrs ago (from memory) Prob could be ignored regardless.

[Capt Coco]

How many of you would ask/demand the tower/app for holding into Brisbane if there was a TS either overhead or in the vicinity if the vis and wind was ok and within limits and everyone else was landing just fine.

Honest question here.

Like how many of you would think to yourself, that guy (EK or other) is just giving it a go and trying to land just because he doesn't have enough holding fuel and I reckon we should hold and wait because we planned, and have extra holding fuel!!!

I have flown into Brisbane many times in summer and other times where there were thunder storms around but luckily airport conditions weren't ever bad enough that we could never land.

But I have flown into many airports in Asia and elsewhere and sometimes into China where they allow approaches into severe TS where the winds and vis were outside my company's minimums and they were clearing us (and anyone else who accepted)for approach!?!?! We obviously couldn't accept the approach clearances......

I think it is hard to judge what you would have done unless you flew the exact same approach around the same time in the same conditions.

[framer]

That's a good point Coco,
We were on into YMML a while back and the runway changed three times during our descent, there were cells about and ATC chatter about lightening at the field. We were cleared for a VOR approach and leaving 6000ft could see the red on the radar sitting at about a 6 mile final, we told them we wanted to delay the approach until the weather went through and they gave us holding to the west. There had been aircraft landing in front of us and we were the only ones who elected to hold so aircraft behind us trucked on down final and landed. About ten minutes later we started our approach and didn't have to fly through the cell on final and landed fine.I was comfortable with my decision and the way it played out but the human element to it is interesting, I second guessed myself as to whether I was being too conservative but only because there were other aircraft doing approaches. If we had been the only ones within cooee I wouldn't have second guessed myself. Analysing it in the hotel room I still felt happy with the decision as there was lightening being reported striking the northern boundary of the airfield, a red cell was displayed on final with the radar in auto/cal and there were obviously gust fronts as the wind was all over the shop.
So your questionHow many of you would ask/demand the tower/app for holding into Brisbane if there was a TS either overhead or in the vicinity is in my mind a good one. For me personally I now consciously disregard the actions of any other aircraft in order to overcome my natural tendency to be influenced by my 'industry peers' .

[601]

lightening being reported striking the northern boundary of the airfield, a red cell was displayed on final with the radar in auto/cal and there were obviously gust fronts as the wind was all over the shop

I always thought that the reason we carried weather avoidance radar was to avoid the red bits.

[framer]

Yeah me too. Don't you think it's interesting that it is not unusual for airliners to fly through the red bits, even on final, seeing that the reason we carried weather avoidance radar was to avoid the red bits.?
That was kind of my whole point, I thought Coco posed a good question because we ( as an industry) don't always stick to such a simple MO.

[FFRATS]

I heard from a VERY long term traveller and aviation employee on the EK flight lots of panicked cabin crew and pax. (Sick etc) Worst approach he's had when sitting in the cabin ever....
If it had so much fuel why not wait the 30min it takes for there fast moving storms to pass :ugh:

FFRATS

[Mister Warning]

Sat at the holding point in BKK a while ago, watching Asian and Middle Eastern airlines landing and taking off around us in heavy rain, lightning and severe gusts. For me, to wait it out was a no brainer. Amazes me the risks some crews are willing to take - and for what? To maintain a schedule? Better late than dead on time. Short on fuel? Divert. As Captains we get paid to make safe decisions. Landing in a thunderstorm is not a safe, nor sound, decision. Microbursts kill jets, and just because the guy ahead of you didn't experience one, doesn't mean you won't. They are by their very nature, unpredictable. Don't let external pressure influence your decision making. You may not live to regret it.

[benjam]

Mister Warning.

Great Post!!

I agree.

[nitpicker330]

Been there many times in Asia and got the tee shirt....

I even had KUL APP say to me after I refused to fly through a red very active cell sitting smack on final app 14L about 8nm "Other Aircraft are flying the approach ok, why don't you?"

Needless to say we waited, in fact other Aircraft behind suddenly decided to wait as well, then I suggested they change approach to 32L which was well clear of any Cell. We landed 15 mins later on 32L.

You make your decision and stick to it.

I sat on the ground in SIN 02C about 5 years ago watching many A320 LCC's depart with driving rain 20kt x/w and active lightening strikes on the field!! I kid you not....

Brave men...

[Sampan Angkasa]

Akali, you seem to know Queensland landmarks well. Emigrating to ' stray! Great move if so, change them from within!

[Dora-9]

MW - I've seen exactly the same thing at the old BKK. A CX B773 and QF B744 sitting it out at the holding point, a CX A330 does a missed approach, bucketing rain, the windsock all over the place, bolts of lightning striking all around us - while all the other Asian operators arrive/depart as though nothing was wrong...

A good post....

[Wally Mk2]

'MW & Framer' make good points here:-) The biggest issue here in this story book is commercial pressure, it exists in all walks of life but damned dangerous in aviation as it has no place in a Capt mindset when he/she is making a decision whether/wether/weather (3 in the Engrish language) it's safe to land or not.
As we know the 'save face' is huge in some cultures & we have all seen the results of that in aviation but it really does exist in a more supple way in our western culture to I believe, not always but it's out there lurking in the minds of some .
We are damned lucky that our WX here down under is pretty good all year round compared to OS & the fact that we have such a great ATC system....cough cough cough means we can take comfort in that we are being well looked after & considered:E

Wmk2

[oicur12.again]

"while all the other Asian operators arrive/depart as though nothing was wrong..."

I have seen CX and KA in HKG takeoff in VERY dubious conditions too.

[ANCPER]

I don't agree that the wx here is benign compared to O/S in general.

[Mach E Avelli]

Compared with parts of Central Europe, North America and Asia, Oz wx is indeed benign.....most of the time. When we do get storms, generally we have the freedom of airspace to safely avoid them - luxuries that the above mentioned areas don't always have. Storm avoidance here is usually only a matter of requesting a clearance to divert off track a few miles, or holding for half an hour.
Sure, we get thunderstorms that do have the potential to destroy aircraft. Indeed, have destroyed aircraft. But for 8 months of the year when many other places are dealing with monsoons, hailstorms, gales, snow and ice, we have it too easy. Too easy makes for complacence.

[Zapatas Blood]

5 sector days in the Eastern US is way harder than toodling around Oz. PHL/ORD/JFK/BOS in the winter aint easy. This does not happen in oz anywhere. Throw in tornado's across the mid west and snow storms into Eagle and Vale and you really work hard.

[empacher48]

Before I did some flying in the tropics, there was one piece of advice an old captain told me.

In regards to flying an approach with a thunderstorm on the approach or over the airfield. He said "the sun will always be shining over your wreckage."

I have always held when active thunderstorms are around, usually no more than 20 minutes, 30 at the most. If the company doesn't like it, my passengers and fellow crew certainly do!

[ANCPER]

I did same IN GENERAL, and I'll stand by that.

I have operated into JFK, ORD, ANC etc as well as lower east coast and I'd agree about northern US. I've also operated into most of Asia and wouldn't say it's any more difficult there than here, but in general WAY better nav aid/radar situation and wx reporting than Australia other than, say, on the east coast. I'd also put most of Europe into the same category as Asia.