Puddle Jumpers in the Machynlleth Loop

[Corporal Clott]

Not sure what to think of this? Especially as they seem to know it is well trodden by military aircraft flying 2-3 times their speed!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvdTAzeG8Zc

The comments on You Tube make interesting reading as well. Can a civvy book into the UK Low Flying System?

Flying in Wales is quite beautiful, but used extensively by the RAF to perfect low flying so while to GA it is in open FIR you would be quite stupid to low fly (500ft +) any aircraft in the area without prior checking of the Low Flying System and speaking to the correct people. So that's what we did and we also had an aircraft capable of climbing out of the valleys through any cloud, so 120+ kts, sitting on parachutes with all our lights on keeping a very good eye out for anything else around.
The following day a microlight obviously did not think about what or where they were going and a Typhoon had to abort its low level run through. not exactly flight safety aware whoever that was.

[Rhino power]

The days on which UK LFAs are active are made known by the MOD so, it shouldn't be a problem to arrange to wazz through the Mach loop in GA aircraft without the risk of getting intimate with FJ traffic...

-RP

[McTall]

I personally like flying through Wales below 2000' which is well into the realms of busy FJ traffic. A couple of quick calls to the Valley Ops and central flight planners for the RAF/MOD and they are more than happy to let you know time windows that are completely free. I often get questioned at what made me want to phone as they are keen to tell me that a lot of people fly below 2000' through Wales without even letting Valley know they are around, let alone phone up first!!

[Skeleton]

Don't see a problem as long as you have "booked" yourself in with TAC booking which this fella did.
Open FIR or not, to go pootling into a well publicized area of the low flying system unannounced is just plain daft.

[BEagle]

I don't see much evidence of adequate low-level lOOkout in that clip.

One wonders what they did after 6.30 as they approached that letterbox?

[neilmac]

There certainly is an AIC about booking HRA 14T as I have used that to book with TBC a few ago to take pics of Loch Hope/Ben Hope similiar to a painting I have called Broken Silence.I cant remember if it included 7T but I imagine a similiar AIC in plsce.

NM

[99 Change Hands]

Puddle jumper? That looked like one of my old FNAF steeds from the 70s! Don't remember booking in to low level from the Woodvale camp in 1980.

[ShotOne]

I sense the undercurrent here is "how dare some mere civvy fly over this green and pleasant land (well, Wales) without requiring a chit signed in triplicate by some Wg Cdr". Well they don't. There's plenty of sky and even at hot spots like Mach loop the spotters sometimes have to wait hours between flybys these days. No prob so long as all parties operate professionally, as seems to have been the case here.

[Courtney Mil]

I sense the undercurrent here is "how dare some mere civvy fly over this green and pleasant land

Damn! I wasn't thinking that, but now you've planted the thought in my head.

[rab-k]

"Puddle Jumper"???

That's no way to refer to our new MPA :E

[Faithless]

Just love the wearing of flying gloves and just T-shirts :ugh:

[Lima Juliet]

I know who the handling pilot is and he keeps and flies his aircraft at a RAF airfield. He is a serving ground branch officer and an enthusiastic and active private pilot.

Not wanting to be too hard on him, I'm glad to see he took steps to notify and check his flight in the LFA. i'm also glad to see him wearing gloves as burned-to-a-crisp digits aren't much good but arm/skin burns are liveable with. I also agree with BEagle, the letterbox lurking at the end of the video looks a bit ominous!

Nice video but I hope it doesn't egg others on to do things that haven't taken the steps he has. He did have a couple of attempts at flying training of various flavours, so he does have better than average awareness of military flying than most PPL holders.

Finally, I don't mean this to be a "them and us" between the mil and GA. I fly both types and there is definate amount of airmanship required - I wouldn't fly around the Loop without checking with the Booking Cell and Valley first, just like I wouldn't take a Tornado and charge around the ATZ at Gloucester Airport without talking to them and checking it's clear :eek:

LJ

PS. Check out the video poster's other video of flying the Bulldog down Derwent with G-Helmets, Goggles and home made UPKEEP bomb-sight - very amusing! :ok:

[Just This Once...]

There are quite a few points in the Loop where an engine failure in a SEP would not be good.

[orca]

Probably wouldn't be ideal in a Hawk either.;)

[Legalapproach]

We did low level in the 'dog down to 250' and that doesn't leave a great deal of scope for an engine failure whatever the location. Oh, and much of it was in Wales. At least in the Hawk a pull up would give you enough time for the Martin baker option.

[Just This Once...]

At 420kts you can get quite a long way in a Hawk post engine failure. Your options from a low level engine failure in a Bulldog are quite limited and the spar you sit on is quite unforgiving.

[mad_jock]

Most GA pilots wouldn't have a clue what your all talking about.

To have access to the documentation about these routes would involve them paying money to the MOD.

Wales is class G so thanks to policy your all put at higher risk by flying that route.

Please put forward to all your safety types that restricting the MIL AIP to those that are willing to pay for it is a really w@nk idea.

[thing]

There are quite a few points in the Loop where an engine failure in a SEP would not be good.

My thoughts as well, I get a bit twitchy flying over Lincolnshire at less than 3,000'..it's all about your personal risk management I suppose. Glider pilot's instincts, high is always good...

Last time I went to Wales was to Haverfordwest, I flew most of the length of Wales at 7,000' still seemed close to the pointy bits at times to me. Mountains, unpleasant things. Best avoided.

[Courtney Mil]

Orca,

A "couple" of years ago my instructor gave me a simulated birdstrike and associated flameout in that very spot. Zoom climb and "successful" recovery to the nearest suitable diversion. It wasn't pretty, but it might have worked in the real case.

[Herod]

Many, many years ago, when I was learning to fly helicopters, we did our mountain-flying training around Snowdon in a Whirlwind. Didn't worry about it at the time, but landing on mountainsides in a single-engine helicopter is Bl**dy dangerous. ;)

[rmac]

There are many places on the M5 where a truck jumping the central reservation and hitting you head on would not be good either.....but people drive on it every day without giving it a single thought....sometimes in life you are lucky and sometimes not....lets not eradicate the concept of joy entirely please...

[orca]

I wish I'd said Harrier now...but I chose my words carefully nonetheless - it wouldn't be ideal would it?

Still - back to those PFL dits.;)

I did a couple of PFLs once - they were amazing. If I try really hard to remember them all - maybe one or two started off in that area in Hawks...they were easily the best.

The point is that one could point at all sorts of situations where an engine failure wouldn't be ideal but we still get into them don't we? A starter list from my own experience would be 1) LL Tucano over moon country 2) Any Harrier evolution involving a ship 3) Any Harrier evolution not involving a ship but with gear down 4) Solo wet winching in a single engine Squirrel...you get the idea... all the situations we say glib things like 'we'll be poorly placed if this happens'.

You don't 'not go' because you might be poorly placed for periods of time - you go having acknowledged the risk.

[thing]

You don't 'not go' because you might be poorly placed for periods of time - you go having acknowledged the risk.

But that's pro military flying. I fly for pleasure mainly, everyone who flies GA has their own risk assessment to flying. I have no problems whatsoever with people flying at low level around Wales, that's their choice and I would defend their right to do it. However it doesn't mean that I would do it.

I don't wear a nomex flying suit or crash helmet when flying, to some that would be an unacceptable risk.

[orgASMic]

Mad Jock, you are probably right that the Mil AIP should be more accessible but a lot of the relevant bits including mil low flying information are available through the CAA. Getting GA pilots to read this http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ga_srg_09webSSL18November.pdf for example and to use the Civil Air Notification Procedure would help everyone. There is current low flying information on the HMG website as well https://www.gov.uk/low-flying-in-your-area so a bit of planning should go a long way.

[orca]

Sorry if that came across like an order mate! I wasn't ordering you to go!;)

[thing]

Wasn't taken as such...:). Even at my own club there are widely differing opinions as to what constitutes acceptable risk, at the end of the day you are commander of the a/c and you fly it as you see fit.

I'm not completely averse to low flying; a run down the Lincs east coast at 500' from persons, vessels and structures your honour is perfectly acceptable because there's a wide sandy beach virtually the whole way to plonk it on. That's acceptable risk to me. I wouldn't do the same at Beachy Head.

[BEagle]

Please put forward to all your safety types that restricting the MIL AIP to those that are willing to pay for it is a really w@nk idea.

Indeed. It was once generally available (as is the German MilAIP) but is now behind the AIDU paywall.....

Why? It's either 'classified' or 'unclassified'. Or is 'unclassified if you have the money' some 'wider markets' :yuk: idea?

[CoffmanStarter]

The UKMLFHB is still available to civilian "customers" ... but at £178.57 :eek:

See pages 9 & 10 ...

MilFlip AIDU Products (https://www.aidu.mod.uk/Milflip/AIDU_Products_and_services.pdf)

Why not make available critical flight safety docs such as this via the MAA web site or NATS ... it's in the interests of both the mil and civilian aviation communities for everyone to be on the same page (literally) ...

Coff.

[whowhenwhy]

Ref the AIP, the safety types have been saying this for a little while now, partly because we complain about GA flying through our IF holds but don't tell the GA where they are. There is supposed to me a move towards a single AIP (mil and civ) but I don't know how far along we are with it..:)

[mad_jock]

Even if you publish the holds won't mean they will stay away from them as they are in class G. And the VFR pilots won't know what they mean or how they are used.

[Lima Juliet]

The problem with the UKLFH (UK Low Flying Handbook) is that it covers HIRTAs (High Intensity Radio Transmission Areas) and that makes it classified. However, there is light on the horizon for stuff in the UK MIL AIP - the MAA have insisted that aerodromes will have to publish a Defence Aerodrome Manual (DAM).

www.maa.mod.uk/linkedfiles/regulation/dam.pdf

Watch this space for them on websites soon.

LJ

[CoffmanStarter]

Leon ... interesting ... so GA Pilots are free to have their gonads fried in the name of national security :eek:

Wire me £179 notes old chap and I'll see if I can obtain a copy of the UKMLFHB from AIDU... it's OK I'm still bound by the OSA :hmm: :E

[AnglianAV8R]

Humble GA pilot here,

I've managed to avoid frying my gonads so far. HIRTAs such as Pershore & Croughton are clearly marked on current CAA charts as well as TV transmitter sites. I once went up into the golf balls at Fylingdales, but still managed to fill a couple of prams afterwards :O

Whilst the Valley AIAA is marked, I think it would be good to mark busier low level corridors such as the Mach' Loop with a directional arrow on the CAA charts. Whilst I take these military activities into account when planning epic flights, other civvy pilots who don't have any interest in military aviation may be blissfully unaware.

I had sight of a (50k) military chart, complete with pylons etc for low level and noticed some arrows around Cranwell. Presumably they were indicators of military patterns in an area of obviously intensive activity. (When propellors are having a good day and the fleet is active). As with Valley, it would be useful to show those arrows on CAA charts too.

As for flying below 2000ft, many of us with lower powered machines often fly at such levels. I get a nosebleed above 1500ft.

Rest assured, I will let you chaps know when I'm going to blat around the loop in my eye wateringly fast 50hp hotship.:eek:

[Lima Juliet]

I asked the CAA Chart Editor at DAP (now looked after by NATS) to put military flow arrows on the CAA VFR charts. He said "it would make the chart too cluttered". I said "better a cluttered chart, than a cluttered countryside with aircraft parts following a mid air"; he didn't look amused at my serious if flippant comment!

As for HIRTAs, yes they are on civil charts, but the UK Low Fly Handbook details the susceptability of each military type to specific emissions - something you don't want to fall into enemy hands!

Out of interest, the HIRTAs on CAA/NATS charts are complete hoop - for instance the HIRTA around RAF Croughton is not the right size for your average Cessna 152. For that aircraft it is a lot smaller - it is for a full fly-by-wire aircraft or one with digital engine control. Think about it, if the intensity was as bad as depicted on the chart it would be frying the traffic daily on the A43 dual carriageway!! (even from the sidelobes!) :ugh:

LJ

[Lima Juliet]

PS. For those that don't know RAF Croughton is marked on the CAA Chart between Hinton in the Hedges and Weston on the Green on the right hand side of the chart below with a red hatched circle. Note how the A43 is obliterated by it!

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/Boyamijealous/Chart.jpg

And it's not a million miles away from Courtney Mil Towers! :eek:

Furthermore, look at Defford on the left side of the map and you'll see a farm strip called 'Croft Farm' in the middle of it. As I said, the HIRTAs on the VFR Charts are exceptionally misleading (ie. utter hoop!)

[CoffmanStarter]

But does Courtney glow in the dark :ok:

[Lima Juliet]

Only on weekdays! :ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

Leon ... Next time you have the occasion to wiz through LFA18 ... avoid the locals who inhabit Herstmonceux as they are now armed with Ground to Air Photon Torpedoes :E

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/GatwickZone_zps3e773b7e.jpg

Let's see how long it takes for the Daily Mail to mangle that little snippet

[Courtney Mil]

It's OK. The sooner they build the new airport at Croughton, the sooner the Rad Haz goes. :ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

So Tin Foil Hat and lead Y Fronts until then :ok:

[Lima Juliet]

Coff

"Herstmonceux"? Sounds like something from the home of the cheese eating surrender monkeys...

:ok:

LJ

[CoffmanStarter]

Leon ...

The name ’’Herstmonceux’’ comes from Anglo-Saxon hyrst, "wooded hill", plus the name of the Monceux family (French) who were lords of the manor in the 12th century.

http://sgf.rgo.ac.uk/sgf-old/gifs/herst1.gif

The Earth’s rotation is monitored by a variety of means, including satellite laser ranging (SLR). The British facility is located in the old solar dome at Herstmonceux and is operated by NERC (Natural Environment Research Council).

All to do with Leap Seconds ...

Best ...

Coff.

[Force For Good]

I'd be very interested to see how these 'pilots' think they would ever put a parachute to use if something went wrong towards the end of this clip. Where exactly did they go?

It's all very well doing the correct admin on the ground, but there is a lot more to consider here. Perhaps this video would be more appropriate in the Wannabees' Forum Cpl Clott?

[thing]

Leon, re your Defford in a HIRTA, is that an old half mil you have or some mil version? On mine it just says aerials. The laser site at Pershore is marked on.

[Lima Juliet]

Thing

It's probably an old half mil - sorry I should have marked it "not for navigation purposes"! :ok:

LJ

[furnace rats]

Force for good! I see that you are quite rightly upset by the bulldog flying at low level because the 'wannabes' might not be able to use their parachutes if things went wrong. With this in mind, I thought I had better alert you to a video in the 'Cranwell' thread where there is yet another single engine aeroplane whose 'so called pilot' is flying at a very low altitude indeed. Maybe you'd like to retrospectively chastise this pilot too?

[mad_jock]

Microlight River Dancing - YouTube

There is a lot worse going on.

[Easy Street]

furnace rats,

When I was a student on Bulldogs we were forbidden from low flying over terrain where a successful forced landing would have been impossible. I remember one particular UAS summer camp to Kinloss where a low flying chart had been stuck on the planning room wall with a big chunk of the flying area scored out using whiteboard markers and labelled "LF forbidden". We were allowed to do GH over these areas but always remaining at least 3000ft agl, which in theory allowed a bit of time to try to identify a suitable field or valley floor area before reaching the 1500ft agl minimum abandonment height. And if the engine did quit over such an area, it was a mandatory jump for solo students, and if dual the brief was to jump by 1500ft agl unless the QFI was damn certain that the forced landing was looking good (well, as good as it can...). I think these rules were made up by the sqn cdr rather than being "generic" but they certainly seemed like good sense.

Nothing wrong with LF over less-severe terrain in a light piston - a quick zoom to 1000ft and choose a field. That is not really an option somewhere like the Loop.

[sharpend]

I tend to agree. Mountain flying is dangerous as one never knows what downdrafts one is going to get. I had a good friend who flew up a valley in a Piston Provost, only to find the ground rose faster than he could climb. He was badly burnt in the resultant crash.

My Bulldog climbs at 1000 fpm; downdrafts are often greater. One does need to plan one's escape route and be aware of where the downdrafts are likely to be. Moreover, a parachute is useless at 250 ft.

I have flown through the mountains. In my Jaguar I flew at 420 kts or more. In my Bulldog, I fly at 120 kts; not much spare energy there. And I certainly don't fly at 250 feet, unless I am over the ridge and flying downhill into flat lands.

The saying, 'There are superior pilots who use their superior intelligence to avoid having to use their superior skill' rings true here.

[FODPlod]

When a Kiwi family friend was stationed at Chivenor (as Senior Navigator, I believe), he organised a flight for me in the back of a Hawk. After a perfunctory medical check (the MO was late for his leaving lunch in the mess), I was briefed, dressed, strapped in and away we went. Presumably, we flew the Machynlleth loop as we zoomed over the Bristol Channel, ascended to cross the coast, and then negotiated the valleys past Brecon before turning left towards Aberystwyth. In the process, I saw more places to walk the dog than you can shake a stick at.

Somewhere heading north over Wales, we suddenly jinked left and I saw a blur as an aircraft passed us on the starboard side heading the other way. "What was that?" I asked rather too anxiously for my liking. "Only a Harrier from Valley," my aerial chauffeur replied. "Did you know about him?" I asked. "No, but they're always around here somewhere," he responded in a matter-of-fact voice. To this day, I'm not sure whether he was serious.

We then headed back to base and landed after a short series of aerobatics during which I was impressed by (and grateful for) my G-suit's ability to react faster than I could. Our family friend and his wife, who had taught in RAFG with my wife, returned to Godzone to grow grapes some time ago but we still keep in touch.

[sharpend]

Yup, we all do silly things when we are young. Luckily some things don't bite and we grow older. Then we don't do silly things anymore!

The previous post reminds me of 'letterboxing'; ie scudding along in the 'Bona Jet' just below the cloud base, 2ft 6" off the ground, through the mountain passes when one spies the proverbial letterbox. That little gap between cloud and ground to enable one to stay VMC over the ridge.

One such letterbox presented itself to me once in my Jaguar and as I passed thro this proverbial 'eye of the needle' I missed another Jaguar coming in the opposite direction. We passed some 6 feet from each other with a closing speed of about 900 kts.

If we had hit, neither of us would have known anything about it. What fun!

[culloden]

"Nothing wrong with LF over less-severe terrain in a light piston - a quick zoom to 1000ft and choose a field"

If memory serves me correctly...120Kts EFATO ...the result of a "zoom climb" was about 150 feet to esatblish in a glide at 75kts or turn level through 90 to 120 degrees.
Both required an underwear change at Low Level

Are you a man or a mouse Trenchard ?
EEEH EEEH pass the cheese!

[Legalapproach]

As per post no. 15

We did low level in the 'dog down to 250' and that doesn't leave a great deal of scope for an engine failure whatever the location.

7.6.82 XX627 Pu/t Cpt. "Culloden" SKN - SKN 1hr 15 ex 16 LL

With us two on board we'd have been lucky to zoom 50' :ok:

Blue Anchor next week for the pre-match warm up?

[culloden]

Ha! Ha!........ I suspect it would still be a problem.
Was it really only 31 years ago....seems like yesterday.
Unfortunatly cannot make the reunion.
It would be interesting to know who is wearing the Waddington sailing club tie!!!
Have fun.

[Lima Juliet]

Whenever I think about how cool it would be to valley fly in a 'bug smasher' I always remind myself of this accident that killed an ex-RAF Nav...

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/dft_avsafety_pdf_502490.pdf

Have a sweep through the AAIB website and it is riddled with the occasional accident where a low performance aircraft is outclimbed by terra firma either in VMC or during an IMC abort.

The wisest words I have seen on this thread are:

My Bulldog climbs at 1000 fpm; downdrafts are often greater. One does need to plan one's escape route and be aware of where the downdrafts are likely to be. Moreover, a parachute is useless at 250 ft.

And there lies the issue - you could do this type of flying and get away with it, but eventually Lady Luck will lose her gaze. If you run out of luck at 1,500ft+ AGL then you have options, below 1000ft you are really limited in a light aircraft unless your area of flight is flat(ish). Flying in the Mach Loop in a bug smasher for this reason alone may well be a Darwinian moment!

LJ

[Danny42C]

Boys will be boys.

The video brought back memories. To my shame, I recall how I (and others) used to do exactly the same around Snowdonia, flying Spitfires and Vampires from Valley (20 Sqdn, 63 years ago).

I remember often squeezing my Vampire through the "slots" between mountain top and cloudbase, and the routine low pass over the Snowdon summit cafe. There we'd exchange good-natured waves with the tourists (outside to admire the views). Memories could stretch back ten years in those times.

Of course, we had Wales more or less to ourselves then. Happy days !

As I don't think anyone has mentioned it so far, it's pronounced (approx): " MacCunthller".

D.

[The B Word]

Danny

I agree, but I would hope that more boys live to be men these days than yesteryear...:hmm:

The B Word

[Force For Good]

Furnace Rats...

Maybe you'd like to retrospectively chastise this pilot too?

I would argue that there is a distinct difference between low flying for operational training purposes as opposed to low flying through a busy military flying training route for the sake of getting some spotters to take your photo for free and make 50 friends on YouTube.