Thai A330 accident at BKK

[akerosid]

According to Flightradar24, a Thai A330, inbound from CAN as TG 679, has overrun on landing at BKK.

Initial photos show that the nosegear appears to have collapsed; reversers still deployed; slides also deployed; there appears to be a fire on the right side of the aircraft.


We've just received reports that Thai Airways flight 679 from Guangzhou, China to ท่าอากาศยานสุวรรณภูมิ | Suvarnabhumi Airport BKK in Bangkok, Thailand has crash landed.

The plane, an Airbus A330, is seen on the picture with the emegergency slides deployed. However, it's unknown what caused the crash landing. It's also unknown if there have been any injuries or fatalities

The link below shows the final moments before the crash landing:

Flightradar24.com - Live flight tracker! (http://www.flightradar24.com/2013-09-08/16:00/12x/THB679)


Aircraft was HS-TEF, one of the oldest of the airlines A330-300s, in service since March 1995:
Photo: HS-TEF (CN: 066) Thai Airways International Airbus A330-321 by John Fitzpatrick - JetPhotos.Net (http://jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6419883&nseq=0)

[LukeA346]

I've just came across a few more pictures.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=722411034451074&set=p.722411034451074&type=1&theater

[akerosid]

Doesn't look too bad, thankfully, quite a significant overrun, but damage doesn't seem too bad.

BKK Airport is now open again, departures from 19R, so this presumably happened on 19L.

[Thaihawk]

There appears to be zilch about this in the Bangkok Post,indicating no casualties.

Swampy were enacting flow control on inbounds prior to 18.00Z.

I guess the European departure wave around midnight local were badly affected.

[flaphandlemover]

It seems that the Flaps where not fully down and the right hand engine took a big hit...
looks like the aircraft is resting on it.....

[KABOY]

Avherald is quoting a runway excursion, not overrun.

Hopefully some better pictures will be published showing the exact location of the aircraft.

[1000 hrs]

As far as I've heard.
A very normal landing, when nose gear was firmly on the ground then nose gear vibrated heavily.
Nose wheel(s) falled-off, the nose strut scratch along the rwy for around 400 meters.
Acft veered off the rwy and stopped as shown in the pictures.

[dubh12000]

I wonder why the Reuters photographs that are being used by the BBC et al have the tail insignia and name photoshopped out?

[martynj3]

"After the accident, workers on a crane blacked out the Thai Airways logo on the tail and body of the aircraft"... Associated Press

[dubh12000]

Wow.

There was I thinking "really poor photoshop".

[ZFT]

Took these a few hours ago. Being told that plan is to remove by 1700 hrs tomorrow. Damage is mainly NG and Rt Main Gear but deep into the soil.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a154/ZFT/Aircraft/Aircraft/P1010605_zps91fbb855.jpghttp://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a154/ZFT/Aircraft/Aircraft/P1010600_zpse86881a9.jpg
http://s11.photobucket.com/user/ZFT/media/Aircraft/Aircraft/P1010600_zpse86881a9.jpg.htmlhttp://s11.photobucket.com/user/ZFT/media/Aircraft/Aircraft/P1010605_zps91fbb855.jpg.html

[martynj3]

@ZFT - does your photo op position along the boundary fence confirm this was an excursion?

[RevMan2]

"After the accident, workers on a crane blacked out the Thai Airways logo on the tail and body of the aircraft"

Used to be in the emergency manuals back in the 1960s/70s, but THESE days...?!

[gordonroxburgh]

Got to worry about an airline that has such a priority of painting out a livery at their home airport base.

[Weeds round the prop]

The Russians and the Chinese used to block out the registration after an 'incident' until recently. We reckoned that all airfields kept a paint roller on a very long handle in the shed with the fire trucks.
I seem to recall that the CAAC Trident that plopped into the harbour at Kai Tak in the early 90s had the reg painted out in a very short time, before being covered with a big tarp. My memory though...

[DaveReidUK]

Got to worry about an airline that has such a priority of painting out a livery at their home airport base.Particularly when the carrier is instantly recognisable from the colour scheme. :ugh:

The Italians know how to do it properly:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02470/italy-plane-crash_2470458b.jpg

[Capn Bloggs]

And why not? With all the loonies, nutcases, itwits, uneducated Internet trolls and journos now plying the earth who are not interested in the accident cause rather than blood, guts and sensationalism, why wouldn't you try to protect your company name, especially if there is a possibility the prang wasn't your fault?

[fox niner]

Because by trying to remove evidence, you will instigate the so-called "Streisand effect", see this wikipedia entry:

Streisand effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect)

[fft100]

Is it really Star Alliance policy to "blur the logo" ?!?

"BANGKOK (AP) -- A Thai Airways plane carrying more than 280 people skidded off the runway while landing at Bangkok's main airport, injuring 14 passengers, the airline said Monday.

After the accident, workers on a crane blacked out the Thai Airways logo on the tail and body of the aircraft, as part of an effort to protect its image according to Star Alliance guidelines, an official said. It was the second mishap in less than two weeks for Thailand's national carrier.

The Airbus A330-300 that departed from Guangzhou, China, had a "glitch" in its wheel base while landing at Suvarnabhumi Airport late Sunday, the airline said. Photos taken after the incident showed deep furrows from skid marks in a grassy area off the runway leading to the stalled aircraft, resting with its nose down and emergency slides inflated.

"After touchdown at Suvarnabhumi Airport, the landing gear malfunctioned and caused the aircraft to skid off the runway. Sparks were noticed from the vicinity of the right landing gear near the engine; the matter is under investigation," Thai Airways President Sorajak Kasemsuvan said in a statement Monday.

"The captain took control of the aircraft until it came to a complete stop and passengers were evacuated from the aircraft emergency exits," he said.

Most of the injuries occurred as passengers evacuated the aircraft, the statement said.

The aircraft was carrying 288 passengers and 14 crew members. The airline said on its Twitter account that the 14 injured passengers were sent to hospitals.

Officials said the runway at Suvarnabhumi Airport will be temporarily closed.

Thai Airways official Smud Poom-On said that "blurring the logo" after an accident was a recommendation from Star Alliance known as the "crisis communication rule," meant to protect the image of both the airline and other members of Star Alliance.

The incident occurred less than two weeks after 20 passengers were injured when a Thai Airways Airbus A380 hit severe turbulence as it was descending to Hong Kong's airport. "

[Ye Olde Pilot]

A Thai Airways official, Smud Poom-on, said that blurring the logo after an accident was a recommendation from Star Alliance known as the "crisis communication rule", meant to protect the image of both the airline and other members of Star Alliance.

Well it has not worked as most newspapers are now using this event as part of the story and Thai Airways features in all the headlines.:ok:

[andrasz]

Is it really Star Alliance policy to "blur the logo" ?!?

No, it is a manifestation of the asian policy of trying to avoid losing face whatever it costs, thereby creating a major loss of face from something that could have remained a non-event.

...position along the boundary fence confirm this was an excursion?

Yes, the aircraft is less than half-way down along 19L, judging from the angle of the terminal building on the second photo.

[nitpicker330]

Actually knowing the soft surface on the VTBS taxyways we could have been convinced that it had sunk into the Tarmac!! Missed an opportunity Thai :ok:

[ZFT]

martynj3,

Most certainly. It's lying off to the right of 19L short of the fire station

[Tyrekicker2]

Definitely excursion not overrun. Runway 19L reopened for takeoff only from beyond the site of the yet to be recovered A330. According to NOTAM the TORA 2000m, full runway length is 4000m.

[DaveReidUK]

No, it is a manifestation of the asian policy of trying to avoid losing face whatever it costsThat may come into it, but basically it's all about protecting the brand which to a considerable extent is represented by the logo.

That's why, if you ever see an interview with airline personnel following an accident, you will rarely if ever see any visible airline branding that might be likely to stick in the viewer's mind.

Of course it's not helped when airline spokespersons make disingenuous statements like this, following the Air Canada CRJ accident at Fredericton in December 1997:

(explaining that removing the logo was standard practice after a crash): "The aircraft no longer belongs to Air Canada; it is now in the possession of the insurance underwriter." :ugh:

[G-AZUK]

Photo Search Results | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?aircraft_genericsearch=&airlinesearch=&countrysearch=&specialsearch=&daterange=&keywords=g-byag+girona+josep+duran&range=&sort_order=photo_id+desc&page_limit=15&thumbnails=)

[andrasz]

Speaking as someone who's job description at some time included the not so enviable task of having to stand in front of cameras after an accident or incident:

IMHO in this particular case, the best line would have been to commend the crew for a good outcome of a potentially rather unpleasant mechanical malfunction, apologise to the passengers involved, then do absolutely nothing more. The whole paintover did more damage to the brand - implying it is something to be ashamed of - than it saved. In the internet age old communications habits just make things worse.

AFAIK there was no such nonsense with a somewhat battered triple7 sitting on the piano keys at Heathrow, to mention just one well handled serious incident.

[fatbus]

Its common practice to remove/cover the Airline name/logo to help prevent bad PR.

[J.O.]

Of course it's not helped when airline spokespersons make disingenuous statements like this, following the Air Canada CRJ accident at Fredericton in December 1997:

(explaining that removing the logo was standard practice after a crash): "The aircraft no longer belongs to Air Canada; it is now in the possession of the insurance underwriter."

Disingenuous yes, but also factually accurate. By the by, the Transportation Safety Board was none too pleased that the aircraft was "disturbed" before they finished their on-site work and I believe they even said so in their final report.

[lomapaseo]

In the spirit of keeping up the logo chatter

I actually got the top of my head whitewashed while coming out from underneath an accident aircraft a day after the prang. They just use the equivalent of buckets and mops to do the job.

In today's technology photoshopping the available newsworthy photos would be easier.

OK back to tech issues

One of the earlier photos seem to show gear tracks in the excursion. So what was the nature of the gear problem that was stated (by the airline) to have caused this ?

[andrasz]

This photo says it all:

http://m.cdn.blog.hu/th/thai/image//runway_damage.jpg

[hitchens97]

Simple question - on the logo blurring - why is anybody related to the airline allowed to go anywhere near a crashed aircraft before whatever first responders have finished and the initial on site investigation by the relevant authorities has been complete.

What's the conversation here - "Hey guys we know you're all busy doing the investigation, but head office wants our logo blurred asap, can we get a crane up blur out the logo, and you can just carry on with the investigation"

[clipstone1]

An engine will be c$8m each, a nosegear is c$1.5m, so even without other hull repairs we're nudging $20m. however, if leased then it could be insured at $50m so could be repairable.

[Super VC-10]

Of course, it's not so easy painting out a logo when the aircraft is floating down a river. :ok:

[Thaihawk]

I departed BKK today at 10.41Z on GA869 to CGK.Pushback delayed by 6 minutes due to single runway operation.

Said A330 looking sorry for itself off the side of runway 19L.

MSN66 being an early airframe and earmarked for replacement in the not too distant future may preclude this airplane being repaired?.

Due back into BKK tomorrow around 16.30 LT,hopefully without a delay.

[The Fat Controller]

The pic adds a new definition of "grooved" runway !

[atakacs]

Does anyone remember a similar instance of an A330 "spontaneously" collapsing after what appears (so far obviously) a fairly routine touchdown ?!

[neilki]

Nose Gear collapsing? The same a330 hitting so hard the nacelles made ground contact at some 230 kias.. obviously a weak point in the design... didn't do much damage to the runway at Hong Kong.. :=

[PAXboy]

Thai Airways official Smud Poom-On said that "blurring the logo" after an accident was a recommendation from Star Alliance known as the "crisis communication rule," meant to protect the image of both the airline and other members of Star Alliance.
So that's another 20th Century regulation that no longer applies!

In the days when pax did not have camera phones you could, to some degree, manage the news of images.

Now that the image is everywhere in minutes and everyone knows who the carrier is?

The blanking of the name is now seriously counter-productive. All carriers should be greatful for the lesson taught today.

[MD83FO]

in many cases passengers are quite happy to open the doors themselves, which most likely has a domino effect.

[Ye Olde Pilot]

You'll never get the true story from accidents such as this in Asia.
The heir to the Red Bull empire killed a Bangkok policeman driving his Ferrari while high on drink but has just fled justice to Singapore.
Vorayuth Yoovidhya, Red Bull Heir, Hit-And-Run Case Reveals Thailand Injustice (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/04/vorayuth-yoovidhya-red-bull-heir-hit-and-run_n_1853997.html)

Saving face is the primary objective hence the cover up. Only kids from wealthy or well connected families ever make it to the flight deck in a country such as Thailand.
But counter productive as you can't muzzle the global press.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/09/09/article-2415984-1BB5AE0F000005DC-109_636x382.jpg
Officials said there had been a malfunction in the gearbox of the plane, which was carrying 288 passengers and 14 crew members.
Following the incident, workers on a crane blacked out the Thai Airways logo on the tail and body of the aircraft.
Thai Airways official Smud Poom-On said that 'blurring the logo' after an accident was a recommendation from Star Alliance known as the 'crisis communication rule', meant to protect the image of both the airline and other members of Star Alliance.

So does Star Alliance recommend this course of action?

More blame buck passing hereThai Airways president Sorajak Kasemsuvan said in a statement that the landing gear had malfunctioned.

Some poor engineer will get the blame for this heavy landing.:=

[helen-damnation]

I sure hope that they had good reason to evacuate or that they exhausted all alternatives before evacuating everyone via the chutes. Did they have any fire warnings and if so was the fire confirmed by the emergency services?

Many CC are taught to evacuate in certain circumstances. Here, you have an unusual a/c attitude, sparks (fire), presumably full reverse while going off road which could have thrown debris into the air giving the illusion of smoke and who knows what smells/smoke in the cabin.

Personally, I could understand the CC making the decision with those circumstances.

[A33Zab]

Does anyone remember a similar instance of an A330 "spontaneously" collapsing after what appears (so far obviously) a fairly routine touchdown ?!

speculation (until confirmed):

In 2007 an A330 bogie beam broke up during taxiing in Munich caused by internal corrosion.

The damage to the runway in BKK suggest the same (bogie beam failure) happened during touchdown this time.

Munich 2007:

http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr101/Zab999/BoogieBeamBreak_zps13ab3b1f.jpg

[Ye Olde Pilot]

Well the fiasco is turning in to a major PR problem for Thai Airways with accusations of pandemonium on the escape and handling of passengers once the aircraft stopped.
Wijit Khaoto, another passenger, said the lower end of the emergency slide he used did not reach the runway surface.

This caused difficulty for shorter passengers whose feet could not touch the ground from the end of the slide. Some passengers trapped at the bottom, including himself, were struck in the back by those coming down the slide after them, he said.

"No staff members were there to help. The passengers who jumped on the slide had to turn back to help pull other passengers down," he said.

The THAI president denied allegations by some passengers that cabin crew members left the plane before assisting passengers.

Mr Sorajak said all passengers disembarked using four inflatable emergency slides on the left side of the aircraft.

Under evacuation procedures, one crew member must exit through each slide first to catch following passengers, while the other crew members must remain aboard to direct evacuees.
.Source Bangkok Post.
Injured passengers criticise Thai Airways International accident response | Bangkok Post: news (http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/368877/injured-passengers-criticise-thai-airways-international-accident-response)

[Thaihawk]

Ye Olde Pilot,

TG recruit from the pool of influential families in Thailand.

Your family name is your key to sucess(or not).

TG is as a result far from the most dynamic airline in the Far East.

[skippybangkok]

Seems pretty racist.

FYI - in the west generally on rich (er) kids can only fly too, cause normal kids from poor families can afford the cost of flying school.

As such your painting yourself with the same brush. I remember in Europe it was something like 200,000 euro for a CPL.... An impossible about for most kids without a rich daddy.

[hitchens97]

Any answer on why on earth that in a crash scene that should be secured for investigation by the relevant body, they would allow the company to stick a crane next to the plane and paint over their logos. Surely you wouldn't let the company anywhere near the scene until the initial investigation is complete.

Could this happen in the US? Would the NTSB allow an airline to paint over it's logo while it's still in the middle of an investigation?

[Innaflap]

It remains to be seen who will conduct the investigation of this incident - if, indeed, anyone........

I have heard aleady that Thai airways themselves will conduct the enquiry - no conflict of interest there of course!!

[ZFT]

Ye Olde Pilot

More blame buck passing here Quote:
Thai Airways president Sorajak Kasemsuvan said in a statement that the landing gear had malfunctioned.

Some poor engineer will get the blame for this heavy landing.:=Where did your heavy landing come from?

[HotDog]

Not a regular occurrence but bogie beams do fail occasionally, not necessarily due to a heavy landing. I experienced one on a Convair 880 during taxy after pushback at Kai Tak.

[Capn Bloggs]

Many CC are taught to evacuate in certain circumstances. Here, you have an unusual a/c attitude, sparks (fire), presumably full reverse while going off road which could have thrown debris into the air giving the illusion of smoke and who knows what smells/smoke in the cabin.

Personally, I could understand the CC making the decision with those circumstances.
Only if comms with the cockpit cannot be established or no pilot PAs are forthcoming...

[etrang]

Interesting comments, from the link above. May be of interest to those ppruners who obsessively complain about passengers taking luggage with them when evacuationg an aircraft.

Mr Kosit said passengers were taken from the accident scene to immigration counters, but some of the passengers had fled the aircraft without their passports, causing confusion.

The buses were packed with passengers, including those who were injured and in a state of extreme shock," Mr Panuwat said. "They needed officials to take care of them and provide them with first aid, but there was no one.

[Al Murdoch]

Only if comms with the cockpit cannot be established or no pilot PAs are forthcoming...

Stop guessing!
Do you know the Thai policy on evacuation?
In my previous company the CC could initiate an evacuation themselves in cases of obvious fire, smoke, aircraft in bits or resting at an extreme attitude.

[givemewings]

Bloggs has it. As it appears now, this would not be a case for Cc-initiated evac. Alert station, monitor outside and report anomalies to flight crew, await instruction. Of course, the pax may well have had other ideas and we may find out if that had any influence over the situation. Many crew agree, even if it is not warranted, once an evac has been started it's probably more harmful to try stop it (ie get trampled to death by the stampede to the door...)

if there was a fire, it would still need to be major and self sustaining for the crew not to wait for flight crew go. External fires as we train for, are generally safer to stay inside until you know what you are actually dealing with (eg tailpipe fire scary to pax but you wouldnt evac for it unless it lit up something else after shutdown)

Thai, like most operators, would likely base SOPs on Airbus procedure which is wait for flight crew instruction unless situation as described... no comms from Capt and immediate threat to life

unusual aircraft attitude, with intact hull, is not in itself a reason for CC to initiate evac if the pilots are still up

gmw (four airlines, 2 A330 operators)

[Super VC-10]

Are we sure the evac was initiated by CC? Could just have easily been a pax that started it! :ooh:

[Capn Bloggs]

Stop guessing!
Do you know the Thai policy on evacuation?
In my previous company the CC could initiate an evacuation themselves in cases of obvious fire, smoke, aircraft in bits or resting at an extreme attitude.

1. Nope. :)

2. Silly previous company. :)

[Ye Olde Pilot]

Some backtracking on that claim.
BANGKOK: -- Star Alliance network has denied a claim by Thai International Airways, one of its members, that it has a policy of obscuring the logo of a plane in case of accident, CNN reported Tuesday.

A THAI flight from Guangzhou in China skidded off the runway at Suvarnabhumi Airport as it attempted to land on Sunday night, slightly injuring 13 passengers.

After the accident, CNN published a photo showing workers on a crane painting over the Thai Airways logo on the tail and body of the aircraft in black.

The Guardian online quoted in its online version a Thai Airways official, Smud Poomon, who said blurring the logo after an accident was a recommendation from Star Alliance known as the "crisis communication rule", meant to protect the image of both the airline and other members of Star Alliance.

The Star Alliance spokesman for the airline group, Markus Ruediger, told CNN, "The Star Alliance crisis communications policy does not state that logos are to be covered," in the event of an accident.

Thai Airways later issued a statement "clarifying" its policy.

"Though Thai generally practices the deidentifying of an aircraft after an incident ... the company also clarifies that this is not a Star Alliance policy," CNN reported.

[Volume]

In 2007 an A330 boogie beam broke up during taxiing in Munich caused by internal corrosion.
The damage to the runway in BKK suggest the same (boogie beam failure) happened during touchdown this time.
That issue should have been solved by the according Airworthiness Directive issued January 2008, refined July 2011 and January 2012.
However, according to the AD you are fully right...
This condition, if not detected and corrected, could lead to a runway excursion event

[Ye Olde Pilot]

I'm afraid we may have some American slang creeping in here. As far as I understand Airbus only talk about bogie beams.
Aviation Today :: EASA Issues Emergency AD for A330-300, A 340-200/-300 MLG Bogie Beam (http://www.aviationtoday.com/categories/maintenance/EASA-Issues-Emergency-AD-for-A330-300-A-340-200-300-MLG-Bogie-Beam_73757.html)

A bogie is a set of couple wheels and originated in the UK during the early days of loco construction.
Check it out in the Oxford or Cambridge dictionaries.
Boogie is
a style of blues played on the piano with a strong, fast beat:

Meanwhile the aircraft that has caused so many red faces at Thai HQ just a click down the road from the accident will be moved tonight.
The stricken Thai Airways International aircraft causing ongoing delays at Suvarnabhumi airport will be hauled off the crash site for repairs by midnight on Tuesday, THAI president Sorajak Kasemsuvan has announced.

The damaged Thai Airways International Airbus is stranded off the eastern runway of Suvarnabhumi airport after crash-landing on Sunday night. THAI said it should be removed from the crash site on Tuesday night.

THAI officials will begin the operation to move the Airbus A330-300 aircraft from the eastern runway, which is still partly closed, tonight.

Two trailers will be used to haul it to a temporary parking space in a hangar at Suvarnabhumi airport and the job could be completed by midnight, Mr Sorajak said.

Fllight TG679 from Guangzhou, China, veered off the eastern runway after touching down at 11.30pm on Sunday night. A preliminary investigation blamed malfunctioning landing gear for causing the accident, which injured 14 of 287 passengers on board.

The Department of Civil Aviation will send the plane's black box to the aircraft manufacturer to find out more about the cause of the crash. Department chief Woradet Harnprasert said the agency has not yet decided whether to send it to an Airbus office in Singapore or the company's headquarters in Toulouse, France.

Airport general manager Rawewan Netrakavesna said the damaged surface has been completely repaired so the runway will be reopened on Wednesday morning as planned.

Suvarnabhumi services about 900 inbound and outbound flights a day. Flights out of the airport are currently running about 30 minutes late, while planes coming into the airport are around 15 minutes behind the schedule as a result of the incident.
Source Bangkok Post

[SloppyJoe]

It is Thai airways policy for passengers with infants to hold their baby, they recommend not using a seat belt for them. Wonder if any babies were hurt in this one.

[chai ja]

Ye olde pilot "Saving face is the primary objective hence the cover up. Only kids from wealthy or well connected families ever make it to the flight deck in a country such as Thailand. "

Not as bad as you may imagine.
The Majority of TG crews are Uni guys, or ex Air Force. Th Air Asia is quite similar. Connections are important the World over, Thailand is no exception, with the "Military boys club" being the main.
However, having worked in Vietnam, I would say the industry there is much much much more about "wealth scores a job"..and the results have shown, we just don't hear about all those incidents that they definitely covered to save face.
Source: married, live here, work here. Family & friends in TG.

[Ye Olde Pilot]

Chai ja

How right you are. To get a military flying job in Thailand requires wealth as does
the uni/self sponsored route. I've spoken to quite a few Thai pilots over a beer who recall when they were in the military certain people were not allowed to fail however bad they were.

I've spent a lot of time in Thailand but it's a bit like the curates egg.

OK in parts.
( for those who don't understand
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3d/True_humility.png/370px-True_humility.png
Bishop: "I'm afraid you've got a bad egg, Mr Jones"; Curate: "Oh, no, my Lord, I assure you that parts of it are excellent!"
"True Humility" by George du Maurier, originally published in Punch, 1895.Curate's egg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curate%27s_egg))

[andrasz]

In 2007 an A330 bogie beam broke up during taxiing in Munich caused by internal corrosion.

The damage to the runway in BKK suggest the same (bogie beam failure) happened during touchdown this time.

Airline has now confirmed that this indeed was the case, and not a NG problem as initially reported. Failure occurred after a normal touchdown and an uneventful 1000m rollout.

On a different note, Star Alliance spokesperson publicly dismissed claims that painting over the logos after an incident was suggested by any alliance policy.

[Ye Olde Pilot]

Well we only have their word for it.

However what could have been a minor domestic story has now made
news across the planet.

Here is the latest viz Bangkok Post

Landing gear caused THAI skid

Published: 11 Sep 2013 at 00.59Online news: Local News
Authorities have blamed defective landing gear after a Thai Airways International (THAI) Airbus A330-300 plane skidded off the runway at Suvarnabhumi airport on Sunday.

Thai Airways International (THAI) staff use air flotation equipment to lift and prepare to move the damaged Airbus A330-300 aircraft, with THAI logo and name blacked out, that skidded off the runway at Suvarnabhumi airport on Sunday night.

Wiwit Deepradit, director of the Flight Standards Bureau at the Department of Civil Aviation, said Tuesday an initial investigation revealed the accident may have been caused by a faulty bogie beam, also known as a pivot, or truck beam, on the landing gear. The beam joins the two main axles of the actual gear.

Meanwhile, THAI clarified an earlier statement about the aircraft having its logo and serial number blacked out.

A THAI official had said the move was to protect the image of the airline and the Star Alliance network of carriers, which THAI belongs to.

The carrier has since issued a statement that while THAI generally practices "de-identifying" an aircraft after an accident, it is not a Star Alliance policy or procedure to de-identify planes.

The pilots had landed the plane smoothly and it had travelled along the runway for about one kilometre before the problem occurred.

Regarding the cause of the accident, Mr Wiwit said: "Everything was normal including the runway touchdown. The question is why the plane veered off the runway. So the focus is on a defect in the landing gear."

The right main landing gear of the plane, which was serving the Guangzhou-Bangkok route, reportedly collapsed.

Forty passengers were injured, with 14 taken to hospital - 12 of whom were discharged on Monday.

Suvarnabhumi operations said Dozens of arriving planes had to circle for an average of about 10 minutes, while 130 departing planes were delayed by an average of 20 minutes for a second day on Tuesday, waiting for the "anonymous" Thai Airways International plane to be moved off the runway.

"An examination shows that the plane is severely damaged, especially on its right side and engine which scraped against the runway and caused sparks due to the friction," Mr Wiwit said.

He said if the investigation concludes a defective part of the plane is to bame, the department will send the part to France for further study as Airbus is based in Toulouse.

Woradet Hanprasert, director-general of the department, said Tuesday that authorities had to find out why the landing gear malfunctioned. Another question to be answered is why a fire broke out in one engine of the plane, he said.

Suvarnabhumi air traffic control reported the fire broke out before landing, but THAI said there were sparks only during the runway incident. Two engines and a pair of tyres on the Airbus plane were damaged.

THAI chairman Ampon Kittiampon Tuesday said the incident was unavoidable, but the pilots and the attendants of the flight TG679 made the right decisions to protect the lives and property of their passengers. The crew exceeded their duties and should be appreciated by passengers, he said. Mr Ampon denied accusations on social media that some crew members ran for their lives. THAI standards are very high and if the crew had not made the right decisions there could have been a tragedy, he said.

Apinan Wannangkun, vice-president of Aeronautical Radio of Thailand Co, reported that from 7am to 3pm Tuesday 42 visiting planes had to circle for about 10 minutes, and 130 departing planes were delayed by 20 minutes on average at Suvarnabhumi airport due to the partial closure of the eastern runway where the accident happened. Airport staff had already repaired the runway.

THAI president Sorajak Kasemsuvan said the removal of the plane from the runway was completed early Wednesday.

[Ye Olde Pilot]

Here is a prime example of Thailand's hide the truth philosophy;
THAI chairman Ampon Kittiampon Tuesday said the incident was unavoidable, but the pilots and the attendants of the flight TG679 made the right decisions to protect the lives and property of their passengers. The crew exceeded their duties and should be appreciated by passengers, he said. Mr Ampon denied accusations on social media that some crew members ran for their lives. THAI standards are very high and if the crew had not made the right decisions there could have been a tragedy, he said.

Social media = lies:ok:

I'm trying to think if that sort of mindset could possibly exist in any other
SE Asia country?

[andrasz]

YOP, you speak with the wisdom of someone who knows the region well...

In this particular case I would still give them the benefit of doubt, the ground tracks also appear to confirm that this was a known failure mode on a relatively old airframe, and the crew riding it out could have had nothing to do with it. The hard landing that triggered it could have been weeks or months earlier.

The real disaster here was the PR...

[Bangkokian]

Most, yes. Thailand just projects a lot more because of its comparably high economic heft and its visibility as a major international destination. SQ would react more professionally, surely, as well as Air Asia. TG fired their last CEO for doing his job and creating waves with the massive patronage network that the company is.

Social Media has been pretty hilarious here because Bangkok is the world's most facebook-connected city and many Thai companies and high profile individuals have no idea how to deal with actually being held accountable, so the result can be pretty entertaining. The Asiatique Double Pricing fiasco (http://www.bangkokpost.com/learning/easier-stuff/326441/asiatique-public-relations-disaster/page-3/) was was a good example. The underlying issue was kind of small, but they went bonkers, banned people left and right on facebook, basically lied and then closed their page before someone presumably explained that this doesn't work in 2013.

Whole region's just coming to terms with this concept of public accountability and Thailand's also going through continued political upheaval on its slow march to something approaching representative democracy, so we're used to it here. The Deputy PM's son shot a decorated cop in the face, killed witnesses and got off the charges - and was recently rewarded with a police sniper job (not a joke) thanks to daddy. It's day in day out.

I live here and love the place, but, no, the privilege associated with wealth does not manifest itself the same way it does in countries like Norway or even the US. In such countries, privilege and wealth might afford you a high percentage shot at avoiding penalties for your actions. In Thailand it affords you a 100% chance of avoiding penalties, something you know in advance, so you act with impunity. This is a bit of a derail, though, but look into the Thai legal system for just high profile examples (Vorayuth, Mu Ham, Duang Yubamrung, etc). Great place to live, don't get crossways with someone wealthy.

[Will Hung]

Why are people so eager to knock Thailand ? Privilege associated with wealth and connections is the same the world over. Always has been, always will be. The extent of the subtlety and publicity may vary, that's all.

[ZFT]

The A330 has just now been removed.

[subsonicsubic]

Well said. Those who knock Thai / Philippine/Asian politics are the ones who "forget" how thing worked in the "Good Old Days" in the UK.

We were as bad. Probably worse.

[ChicoG]

Re:: The injuries and the complaint that the slides did not reach ground.

There was a similar incident in (I think) AUH when a Gulf Air plane aborted take off shortly after leaving the ground (the pilot blamed microburst but was blamed and dismissed anyway).

The same thing happened, the plane was nose down in the sand off the runway, the crew opened the slides, and passengers basically went out of the rear door(s) vertically into the ground, where most of the injuries were broken legs, etc. No fatalities thank heavens although one of the cabin crew broke her back, thankfully recovered.

Does this not merit some kind of design change?

(Note: This one was painted entirely white very quickly as well!).

[ChicoG]

Why are people so eager to knock Thailand ? Privilege associated with wealth and connections is the same the world over. Always has been, always will be. The extent of the subtlety and publicity may vary, that's all.

It's not the wealth and connections that are the problem, it's the abuse of them.

[Ye Olde Pilot]

Thai Airways are pointing the finger of blame at Airbus.

Thai Airways International (THAI) said Wednesday it had encountered problems with landing gear on its Airbus A330-300 fleet prior to Sunday night's landing mishap.

Part of the landing gear had also been subject to an aviation watchdog warning.
The Thai Airways International Airbus A330-300 that skidded off the runway at Suvarnabhumi airport on Sunday night was nudged out of the mud and moved to a nearby hangar Wednesday afternoon.

THAI executive vice-president for the technical department, Flt Lt Montree Jumrieng, said Wednesday that preliminary testing showed the accident was the result of a defective bogie beam on the aircraft's landing gear. He said the faulty part caused the gear to collapse about 1km down the runway.

A bogie beam connects the wheels on an aircraft's landing gear horizontally and allows them to pivot on takeoff and landing.

According to Flt Lt Montree, Airbus recommended close surveillance of the bogie beams of its A330-300 planes when THAI ordered them. The landing gear was manufactured by French-based firm Messier-Bugatti-Dowty Co.

The European Aviation Safety Authority (EASA) issued an emergency airworthiness directive on June 29, 2011, about the landing gear of some Airbus aircraft series, including the A330-300.

The directive said during ground load test cycles, the main landing gear (MLG) bogie beam prematurely fractured as a result of its assembly method.

"Fracture of a MLG bogie beam under high speed could ultimately result in the aeroplane departing the runway, or in the bogie detaching from the aeroplane, or MLG collapse, which could cause structural damage to the aeroplane and injury to the occupants," the directive read.

EASA ordered a reduction in the existing MLG bogie beam life cycle.

"The bogie beam has a life span of 10 years and [the one which broke on Sunday] had not been replaced since it was first installed [in 2004]. But I can confirm that it was checked every two years," Flt Lt Montree said.

He said that due to the warning from Airbus, THAI checked the landing gear every two years and Airbus staff always took part in the inspections.

"We found[cracks on the bogie beams] on some of our A330-300 aircraft after three to four rounds of maintenance.

The affected parts were replaced," he said, stressing that THAI adheres strictly to maintenance regulations.

He said the airline operates 27 Airbus A330-300 aircraft. The plane involved in Sunday's accident was delivered in 1995 and was among the first batch of 12 A330-300s that THAI purchased.

This group of aircraft is due to be decommissioned between next year and 2017.

The bogie beam involved in Sunday's accident was last checked in February last year, when it was found to be in a usable condition, Flt Lt Montree said.

He added that the plane involved in the accident would require two new engines and three new bogie beams.

THAI senior executive vice-president Chokchai Panyayong said the landing accident had caused serious damage to the aircraft.

The plane was removed from Suvarnabhumi's eastern runway about 3.30pm Wednesday, and the runway was reopened at 8.10pm.

THAI president Sorajak Kasemsuvan had conducted a ceremony to pray for the smooth removal of the plane Wednesday morning after heavy rain delayed salvage efforts on Tuesday night.
Source Bangkok Post

[lomapaseo]

Thai Airways are pointing the finger of blame at Airbus.

I didn't see that blame finger pointing.

Did they perchance mess up an inspection and miss seeing a crack?

All the more reason to let an official investigation proceed and look for any changes in the maintenance manual for lessons learned by any party

[givemewings]

Does this not merit some kind of design change?

This is addressed on the A380-the two forward doors on the main deck have slide extensions, which automatically deploy in the event of a nose-up attitude to compensate for the extra distance to the ground. I believe the upper deck slides are such that it wouldn't matter since they are further back and would still reach the ground. Ditto for nose down attitude- it's not as extreme an angle.

CC are not required to do anything with these slides differently EXCEPT if they fail to deploy- in which case the aircraft alerts that this has occured via a light and buzzer "SLIDE NOT READY".... in which case pax to be directed to alternate exits.

I suppose any new model from now on would take this into consideration.

[lilflyboy262...2]

If there has been serious damage done to the aircraft, including needing two new engines... and it is about to be replaced... wouldn't it be better to write the aircraft off? Or would this reflect badly on its safety record?

[lomapaseo]

wouldn't it be better to write the aircraft off? Or would this reflect badly on its safety record?

I doubt that the insurer gives a care

[Killaroo]

Quote: Originally Posted by Al Murdoch
Stop guessing!
Do you know the Thai policy on evacuation?
In my previous company the CC could initiate an evacuation themselves in cases of obvious fire, smoke, aircraft in bits or resting at an extreme attitude.

quote: originally posted by Cap'n.Bloggs

1. Nope.

2. Silly previous company.

You do know that Airbus fits a selector switch allowing the Evac Signal to be initiated by the Captain alone or the Captain & CCMs?

Silly Airbus, eh?
You should go up there and tell them how to design their aircraft. You obviously know better than everybody else.
Quite a common conceit in this business unfortunately.

[ZFT]

I wouldn't believe what the media are reporting. I understand that the left engine is undamaged and the only the right made contact with the ground. Obviously will be replaced but repairable. Also understand that landing gear issues are being somewhat overstated too.

[Pom Pax]

I wouldn't believe what the media are reporting. I understand that the left engine is undamaged and the only the right made contact with the ground. Obviously will be replaced but repairable. Also understand that landing gear issues are being somewhat overstated too.

I have seen a private picture of the lhs engine and it doesn't look too kosher. Also there must have been ground contact as the pylon is punched up into the leading edge.
However I will agree with your remarks about the media.
Never trust the Thai media and only slightly less any press releases.

[andrasz]

I understand that the left engine is undamaged...

Looks more than a scratch to me...

http://m.cdn.blog.hu/th/thai/image/thai_air_kicsuszott3.jpg

[ZFT]

it does to me too!

[lomapaseo]

Looks more than a scratch to me...


If it aint crushed it should be repairable

[greenspinner]

Could be repairable, but in a view of A/C age and the work to accomplish for the repair, it will depend on the assessment between insurer & Airbus/THA

[deSitter]

I wonder if this has something to do with the way the A330 trucks are angled quite steeply, with the rear tires acting as a pivot axis and the entire weight of the airplane being suddenly born by the beams when the front wheels make contact? The 6-wheel trucks on the 777 also have tires in the middle to soften the blow. In A330 landings, it seems the wing has a tendency to want to stay flying, then the lift is killed and the plane settles hard on the beams.

[Killaroo]

The cure for that is to de-rotate and land the front bogie before pulling reverse.

[Bangkokian]

If the newer A345s mothballed at Don Muang and the firing of the only competent CEO and the opening of Puff & Pie and all the other nonsense that goes on at TG corporate tell you anything, it's that you can't apply common sense to their decisions. There's no predicting what exactly they'll do except keep offering free flights to politicians and the military by regulation.

[nitpicker330]

easier said than done most of the time!!

If only they had designed it better in the first place like a Boeing!!

[kristofera]

This would never have happened on a L1011! ;)

[Capn Bloggs]

The cure for that is to de-rotate and land the front bogie before pulling reverse.
How many bogies does an A330 have? If you're referring to the front wheels, you'd need a SWA nosewheel-first job to get the front wheels to touch first.

[nitpicker330]

Not what he means Bloggsy:---ideally to make a smoother landing on the crap330 after the trailing wheels touch you quickly de-rotate ( push forward a little ) to fly the forward wheels on before they crunch down under the spoilers.

Re-rotating quickly as well as delaying selecting reverse until its complete makes it a smoother affair!!!

It takes a bit of fineness to do correctly and a bit hit and miss, you do a good landing one day and exactly the same thing a day later and............. :{

No where near as consistently smooth as the mighty 747 or even the 777.( ER was the best of the 777's to land ) :ok:

[Capn Bloggs]

Thanks Picker. Gottit now.

[Back Seat Driver]

Not what he means Bloggsy:---ideally to make a smoother landing on the crap330 after the trailing wheels touch you quickly de-rotate ( push forward a little ) to fly the forward wheels on before they crunch down under the spoilers.
Push forward a little!!!!
Bwahahaha.
Release a bit of the back pressure, yes, but push forward!
Jeez some people write crap on here.
Bwahahaha

[nitpicker330]

Crap???? Really???? I've done well over 1000 successful landings in the Bus and yes most guys with experience ( sometimes me too !!! ) not only relax the back pressure but push forward a little after touchdown. Not too much mind you, but yes push a little carefully to fly the front wheels on smoothly. It takes a little confidence and understanding, but its done.

Maybe if you weren't just a backseat driver you'd actually know what you are talking about mate. :mad:

Now go and make the bunk, if I want your advice I'll give it to you!! :D

[Back Seat Driver]

Feeling a little inadequate by the sound of your last post np330?
You say pushing forward during the landing flare is ideal.
I challenge you or anyone to show an Airbus FCOM passage that recommends that technique as the IDEAL.
Ps I've never had to make a bunk, and I would never seek your advice, considering the 'Big Noting' BS you write here.

[Volume]

No where near as consistently smooth as the mighty 747747 has the very same bogey (truck) angle, rear pair of wheel touches the ground first. On the Wing and body landing gear, with the wing landing gear trucks being even stronger tilted than the A330 bogies.
It was state of the art to angle the trucks, today on the A380 for example they have a negative angle touching down first with the front wheels. Lessons learned. Except for the Dreamliner of course ;)

[MrMachfivepointfive]

The rest of us get it. Don't push during the flare, but right after you feel the mains bogies touch. Now stop winding nitpicker up.

[Capn Bloggs]

It was state of the art to angle the trucks, today on the A380 for example they have a negative angle touching down first with the front wheels. Lessons learned. Except for the Dreamliner of course ;)
Dunno about that. The 767 has down-tilted bogies. I have heard that that makes it harder to get a nice touchdown because the back wheels bang on, unless of course you roll it on by pushing forward...

[mikedreamer787]

6 pages and no one's posted a METAR? :ooh:

This is R&N right?

[Back Seat Driver]

Bloggsie, you very funny man. Over the years a few of us have tried rolling it on in the 76, but only ever once.
Doesn't work in a 74 or a 380 either, but it did on the 72 (734 too).
Gentlemen all I wanted to do was make a distinction between relaxing back pressure and 'pushing forward'.
'Rolling it on' never ever involved PUSHING FORWARD.
BSD withdrawing from thread - out.

[Yaw String]

Think we are that close to removing the first Pee from PPRUNE,..it's back to flight school for us all,Until we understand the difference between "push" and "ease"...of course!

Which ever method I use, the result is fairly consistent..:*

[Gordomac]

Ooooh this is fun but slipping off thread to the point where the Mods are closing in ! BSD, c'mon, banging out in a hissy fit ! Stay with it. Good to see Nitty not taking it as well as he dishes it out. Bloggsy always good for a laff but, I offer this : Trident was best landed by PUSHING forward just before touch. You had to do this within 2.6 inches of mainwheel touch & if you consider the geometry, you will see that the action would lift the mainwheels.(if you still had some airspeed) BUT, one had to be very brave to try it. B72 was similar. Airbus is a different (awful) beast & the yoke merely signals the FCC's that position the flight controls. You DO flare, a bit , but once mainwheels are stuck on you DO P U S H and it is called DEROTATION and it IS referred to in the FCOMs. I always just did what my teachers told me to do but I often wondered, alone at night in my hotel room, what would happen if you didn't de-rotate.(never wondered if I had company ) Speed decay would probaly just result in nose lowering but one might run out of runway. Now, PUSH to hard..............(de-rotating too agressively ) .......... and one could wind up slamming the nosewheel. Geees, why do Airbus put us in this hideous position at the end of the day ? Bring back the DC3. Cripes, looks like one could slam the tail if you PULLED after touch.

[Capn Bloggs]

Ooooh this is fun but slipping off thread to the point where the Mods are closing in !
And then proceeds to tell warrries about "roll-it-ons"! :D

Interesting that it appears most, if not all, swept-wing rear-mounted-engined jets like to be rolled-on; the "DC 9 ski" certainly does. Main gear further back from wing than on a underslung jobbie so "easing forward" lifts them? :E

If that A330 was mine, the first thing I'd be saying was "who flew this before me?!".

[nitpicker330]

Back seat driver-----I did not advocated gently pushing forward "before" main gear touchdown in the flare maneuver did I? :D

Yes that used to be a technique used on the mighty 727.

Think and say what you like but this is the way it's generally done on the 330. :ok:

Live and learn buddy :O

Oh and please read my post again....:{

[Yaw String]

Gentlefolk..gentlefolk(PC times).......time please!....
And the winner is...Pull, then push...or was it Push then pull!...oh well,back to the bar for some more embibement!:E
Ps..Gordomac...if you didn't lock the DC3 tail wheel on takeoff, it usually meant 10 points for artistic interpretation..on the landing..(stolen from Digby Sinclair's tribute to Twotter antics,Aberdeen,early 80's)

[Killaroo]

Do an Autoland in the 330 and watch the autopilot behaviour on touchdown.
It derotates AGGRESSIVELY.
That's what Airbus designed it to do.

The best landings I ever got on an A330 came from 'rolling on' a -300 before main wheel touchdown. Super smooth. You gotta set it up right though.

[Prober]

See #106.
The theory of “roll on” for the Trident applied only to the T3. Trg school thoroughly discouraged the practice but it was widely used (except on short runways). However, I really would dispute the figure of 2.6 inches. 2.5 was the ideal and any deviation could give surprising results. T1 and T2 did not suffer from the same idiosyncrasy.
:rolleyes:

[Capn Bloggs]

I really would dispute the figure of 2.6 inches. 2.5 was the ideal and any deviation could give surprising results.
Hard to soar like an eagle when you're surrounded by turkeys, eh Prober? :E

[ENFP]

Well the English Newspapers in Bangkok, are today publishing a statement from the Managing Director of Thai Airways that should have you all feeling much safer when your wheels land on in Bangkok. It would appear that the recent incident has nothing to do with an undercarriage assembly but is all to do with spirits and condo's (yes that is correct). I hope the worlds regulatory authorities will be satisfied with this approach to aircraft incident/accident investigation. Or perhaps Thai Airways should have a full audit before being allowed back in to FAA/EASA airspace. From:

Recent Transport Disasters Blamed On Spirits : Khaosod Online (http://www.khaosod.co.th/en/view_newsonline.php?newsid=TVRNM09URTNNelUwTUE9PQ==&sectionid=TURVd01BPT0=)

BANGKOK: -- Supernatural powers are cited as the factors behind recent high-profile accidents in Thailand, namely the botched landing of a Thai Airways plane at Bangkok′s main airport earlier this week.

14 people were injured during the evacuation from the Airbus A330-300 which skid off the runway of Suvarnabhumi Airport on 9 September.

While initial investigation pointed to a malfunctioned landing gear (the officials have not yet finished their inquiry), the Managing Director of Thai Aiways, Mr. Sorajak Kasemsuvan, is not taking chances. He said his company will conduct a major ceremony to appease the malevolent spirits said to be haunting the airport.

He is quoted as saying that the ceremony will also thank the said spirits for assisting with the successful operation to salvage the plane from the runway.

Mr. Sorajak′s comment followed a series of coverage by Thai Rath, the best-selling newspaper in Thailand, which gave extensive attention to the supposed involvement of ghosts and spirits in the accident.

Previously, Thai Rath has reported that a ghost in "traditional costume" (which strangely resembles the outfit Thai Airways flight attendants wear) has helped evacuate the passengers from the aircraft shortly after it slid off the runway.

The newspaper has also quoted Mr. Chotisak Asapaviriya, a former director of Airports Authority of Thailand (AOT), as saying that he had organised a regular prayer session to placate the vengeful spirits which reside in the airport vicinity.

At the ceremony to unveil the airport in 2006, Mr. Chotisak told Thai Rath, an official in charge of searching for explosive materials had broken down into a trance, claiming that he was being possessed by a "grandfather ghost" who demanded a shrine to be built on the airport compound. The shrine was quickly built afterwards.

Thai Rath helpfully points out that 8 major shrines have been built around Suvarnabhumi Airport by the staff in order to ward off evil spirits, such as a shrine dedicated to the Naga (holy big snake in Buddhist myths) which is presumably angered by construction of the airport on what was once a swamp inhabited by snakes.

Other smaller shrines include a strangely named "Italian Shrine".

The newspaper cited the curses of the residing ghosts as the main reason the construction of the airport had been delayed for decades. The more rational Thais, however, would point to mire of corruption that has plagued the project before the government of Thaksin Shinawatra finalised the project in late 2005.

Dr. Smith Thammasaroj, former director of Suvarnnabhumi Airport, told Thai Rath he was convinced of the existence of supernatural entities around the airport even though, he admitted, he had never encountered any particular case personally.

The scientist who once headed Thailand′s Meteorological Department said he had invited so many psychics to conduct ceremonies and constructed so many shrines "that I can′t keep count".

"We even had to build a condominium for the ghosts to reside," Dr. Smith said, "Because the spirits are so many individual spirit houses won′t be enough".

However, there has been few secular responses to the accident at Suvarnabhumi Airport on 9 September, too. Sqn.Ldr. Sitha Tiwaree, Managing Director AOT, said the authority has conducted an Emergency Plan Rehearsal, in which the airport′s fire and rescue departments took part.

The accident involving the Airbus was the most severe case at the airport since its opening 7 years ago, he said.

Sqn.Ldr. Sitha stressed that the incident will be analysed for future adjustment of the Emergency Plan, particularly how to transport passengers to the airport building - the procedure that received several complaints on 9 September. The rehearsal also pointed out that the airline crew was not familiar with the runway, causing complications during the latest accident, the director noted.

In long term, he said, the airport plans to build another substitute runway, in order to sustain further service. The AOT board will meet on Tuesday, 17 September to discuss about the construction budget, according to Sqn.Ldr. Sitha.

But it seems the spirits do not only roam the sky.

After a train headed from Malaysia to Bangkok′s Hua Lamphong Station derailed in the capital city yesterday, Daily News, the second best selling newspaper of the kingdom, reported that a certain curse might be involved.

According to Daily News, a painting at Hua Lamphong depicted a small obstacle in the rail track, which perfectly explains the frequent derailments - more than 15 incidents this year alone.

Even Transport Minister Chatchart Sitthipan, best known for his hands-on approach in inspecting problems of public transports, is mulling a paranormal hands-on solution. He has reportedly ordered the Deputy Permanent Secretary of the Ministry to consider a plan to organise a merit-making ceremony for the sake of his Ministry.

During the past few months, Mr. Chatchart noted, the country has suffered from many transport accidents such as minivan crashes, train derailments, boat crashes, and the Thai Airways incident.

"There have been more deaths than usual. Many have suggested that the Ministry of Transport needs a large-scale merit-making ceremony" Mr. Chatchart said.

[clipstone1]

Many aircraft that have suffered considerably more damage (eg fuelage creases) have been repaired and continued to fly after incidents.

The repair or otherwise will all be financial, this A333 could be insured for anything between $25m and $60m, the insured value will have been agreed with the owner of the aircraft (be that TG or a leasing company).

The safety record in theory will not be impacted by either repairing or making the aircraft a total loss. The aircraft will be repaired in accordance with Airbus SRM and with their no technical objection.

The value of the claim will potentially impact the insurance premium for TG going forward, but with aircraft being insured on an agreed value basis, market value doesn't make a big difference on the repairability of the aircraft.

[roulishollandais]

@clipstone
is it possible to insure an airliner -like airclub planes- for much more than a new plane? In that case the owner gets richer in a crash which kills everyone under Warsow/Montreal Convention limiting the responsibility at a very low price.:}

[Ye Olde Pilot]

It will be interesting to see what what happens to this airframe but I suspect it will not fly in Thailand again.

For those who do not appreciate the mentality that exists from management to flightdeck the painting episode explains it all. Why they used black instead of the normal whitewash which would have been less obvious I'll never know.

This latest story reflects badly as well. No prizes for guessing why the deal fell through.
FAILED PLANE DEAL SET TO FURTHER SOUR TIES
Thailand:The national carrier, which claims it had no idea Prince Faisal al-Saud was involved in the deal, insisted it will not proceed with the sale despite earlier accepting a US$2.5 million (79.5 million baht) deposit.

The move is likely to further strain diplomatic ties between Thailand and Saudi Arabia, which have been almost non-existent since the "Blue Diamond Affair" of 1989, when a Thai janitor working in the Riyadh palace of Prince Faisal stole close to 100kg of jewellery.

The aircraft in question is one of four Airbus A340-500s _ registered as HS-TLA, HS-TLB, HS-TLC and HS-TLD _ which the national carrier decommissioned and put on the market at the beginning of this year.

London-based consultancy firm AvCon Worldwide Ltd offered to buy the plane coded HS-TLD for $23.5 million and the other three for $20 million each.

THAI later agreed to sell only HS-TLD to the aviation consultancy firm, which was apparently representing Prince Faisal.

The company put down a deposit of $2.5 million three months ago.

The plane was due to be delivered to at the end of last month, but never arrived.

THAI president Sorajak Kasemsuvan told the Bangkok Post Sunday the company's offer had been forwarded to the airline's board for consideration, but the board had rejected the deal, saying the price was too low.

The airline attempted to return the deposit, but AvCon has not taken back the payment, Mr Sorajak said.

"The board didn't agree with the purchase offer, because the aircraft's book value was $66 million," the THAI president said. "If it was sold for $23 million, it would run up a recorded loss of over $40 million, which might subject [related parties] to investigation."

Mr Sorajak insisted he had no idea the Saudi prince was involved in the deal, saying THAI had been in contact only with AvCon.

However, an AvCon consultant and coordinator, who declined to be named, said the Saudi prince acknowledged the purchase offer in writing. The written acknowledgement was appended to the company's formal offer document submitted to THAI.

The consultant said the offer of $23.5 million was reasonable. The current market price of an A340-500 _ provided it meets air safety standards and has clocked up more than 3,000 hours of flight time _ range from $15 million to $18 million apiece, he said.

The four Airbus planes put up for sale, despite having low flight times, are not in a condition to fly, the AvCon representative said.

He claimed the aircraft were short on maintenance and their operational licences had expired.

He said THAI had only informed AvCon of the board's decision to reject its purchase offer via email, which is not an appropriate channel of communication for such a matter.

THAI should issue a formal letter explaining its reasons for not going through with the deal, the consultant added.

AvCon public relations representative Sakchai Pinnaree claimed the Saudi prince had hoped that, had the purchase been a success, it could boost bilateral relations between his kingdom and Thailand.

A source in THAI's committee considering the aircraft's sale said the purchase offer was submitted to the board twice before it was finally rejected.

"Paying a deposit does not amount to an absolute settlement of a deal," the source said. "If the board doesn't approve, that's the end of it."

The source admitted the plane's book value of US$66 million is unrealistic given the fast depreciation of the A340-500, but said the $23.5 million offer was still too low.

The airline believed AvCon revealed the prince's name in an attempt to keep the sale price low, the source said.
THAI Backs Out Of Sale To Saudi Prince (http://www.brudirect.com/southeast-asia/southeast-asia-thailand/7004-thai-backs-out-of-sale-to-saudi-prince)

[lomapaseo]

Ye Olde Pilot

Could you explaing more clearly how the heck your quoted article above affects the investigation or outcome of this incident :confused:

[Metro man]

Airbus fly by wire have a "flare law" which takes over on landing causing the nose to pitch down, therefore back pressure is required to keep the nose up giving similar handling characteristics to a conventional aircraft. If the back pressure is relaxed the nose will drop causing the main wheels to lift and soften the touch down.

Airbus advise against pushing forward on the side stick but state that relaxing back pressure is acceptable. Remember that the manuals are written to cater for the lowest ability pilot and Airbus don't want incidents involving collapsed nose gear with the airlines involved pointing to the books and saying they followed the manufacturers recommendation.

[Bangkokian]

It's impossible to guess what TG's business management will do in any given situation, so who knows whether they'll repair the airframe or not. They've got a couple of relatively new A340-500s sitting mothballed at DMK because they bought them and the direct routes they were running to LAX and JFK weren't profitable. So, you know, park them and let them sit through a flood. Probably infested with ghosts too at this point.

Money is free for TG and it's part of a very important patronage network inside the government. It is a near-total caricature of a flag carrier in that regard. Until those two things stop being true, it will be an unpredictable carrier from a business point of view.

I love flying TG, though, when their prices on a route aren't just hilarious (many government officials fly free, so who cares about prices).

[NigelOnDraft]

Airbus fly by wire have a "flare law" which takes over on landing causing the nose to pitch down, therefore back pressure is required to keep the nose up giving similar handling characteristics to a conventional aircraft.Not too sure this is true for the 330/340? It is for the 320 series...

[Tankengine]

Gee there are a lot of non A330 pilots telling us how to land!:hmm::rolleyes:

[nitpicker330]

Yeah, what do I know after landing the thing 1000 times!! :D

[Capn Bloggs]

This is analogous to "kicking it straight" during a crosswind landing.
No one "kicks" a heavy swept wing jet.......at the very best you might "squeeze" the rudders.
Codswallop. If it's a screaming crosswind you may well have to "boot/kick it straight". All "squeezing" does is bang my head on the side window when the aircraft lurches straight on touchdown. :ok:

[training wheels]

Airbus fly by wire have a "flare law" which takes over on landing causing the nose to pitch down, therefore back pressure is required to keep the nose up giving similar handling characteristics to a conventional aircraft.

Wouldn't slowly reducing the power levers to idle cause the nose to pitch down anyway? (Like it does on the turbprop I fly). Why does Airbus need fancy technology to lower the pitch attitude, or doesn't Airbus allow pilots to touch the power levers at all until it tells you to do so? :E

[J.O.]

No it wouldn't because the basic fly-by-wire architecture in the Airbus system is such that it maintains the last selected pitch attitude. So, unlike in a conventional aircraft where the reducing energy results in a decreasing pitch attitude, without the flare law, the Airbus would feel unnatural in the flare.

[nitpicker330]

Quote from my A330 FCOM relating to flight control laws---


FLARE MODE

When the aircraft passes 100 ft RA, the THS is frozen and the normal flight mode changes to flare mode as the aircraft descends to land. Flare mode is essentially a direct stick-to-elevator relationship (with some damping provided by the load factor and the pitch rate feedbacks). At 50 ft, a slight pitch down elevator order is applied. Consequently, to flare the aircraft, a gentle nose-up action by the pilot is required.

[Metro man]

Wouldn't slowly reducing the power levers to idle cause the nose to pitch down anyway?

Power gets reduced quite quickly in a jet on landing. There is still noticeable residual thrust from the engines and keeping power on results in floating past the touch down zone. Jets require longer runways than turbo props and what may be plenty for an ATR could be very limiting in a jet.

Below 2000m in an A320 requires a bit of attention and proper technique. Stopping performance is best on the ground with brakes, spoilers and reverse thrust applied. People come to grief with tail strikes and overruns by holding off too long for a smooth touchdown.

[joy16]

Below is the update news for this incident.



THAI executive vice-president of the technical department, Montree Jumrieng, said yesterday initial investigations and examination of the flight data and cockpit voice recorder found a cracked bogie beam caused the landing gear to collapse and the airplane to veer off its runway.

The finding may mean that other bogie beams of the same type will suffer from similarly impaired functioning, he said.

A bogie beam is an H-shaped steel part that links a shock strut, a wheel and its brake. The bogie beams of problematic type are equipped in 12 Airbus A330-300 aircraft that THAI imported in the first batch of its 27 Airbus A330-300 airplanes.

"Previously the life of the bogie beams was set at [the plane's] lifetime. Later there was an announcement to limit its life to 50,000 flight cycles, but the plane in the incident had been used for only 40,000 flight cycles. This is the first reported case of a bogie beam cracking from its base to its top," Flt Lt Montree said.

He said the case makes further reduction of the bogie beam's life likely. An official announcement will be made by Messier-Bugatti-Dowty Co, the landing gear producer, and Airbus.




You can read full story at Bangkok Post (http://www.bangkokpost.com/business/aviation/385745/thai-blames-landing-gear-for-mishap).

[Capn Bloggs]

40,000 cycles in an A330-300? Isn't that a real flogging?

[Capot]

If, repeat if, the average sector is 4 hours, and if, repeat if, the aircraft does 3,000 hours a year, 40,000 cycles is 53 and a bit years of life.

If it's 4000 hours/year (is that really possible?) then 40,000 cycles is 40 years of airframe life.

But those assumptions may be way out. If the average sector is well above 4 hours, as I suspect it might be across the whole fleet, then 40,000 cycles requires an even longer life.

[Brenoch]

That said, the A330 is quite widely used domestic in Thai Airways and also on a fair few high density, short haul routes in the Far East. Nonetheless, it would have been nowhere near 40000 cycles.