Noise pollution

[peacefullskies]

Hello,
Flying a small plane for recreation purposes is very cool and a dream come true for many people. My question is, at what point do we need to consider out skies saturated an unable to accommodate more small aircraft? My concern is that in many parts of the US there is so much small aircraft traffic that the prop and engine noise becomes an annoyance. At what point do we need to say that there are too many planes in the sky? For example, if on a typical walk in a park outside a city you can hear aircraft an average of over 50% of the time, is that too much? What if you can hear 3 aircraft 100% of the time? My question is, where do we draw the line in terms of the number of planes allowed in the sky? From a noise pollution perspective this will be a non-issue as soon as electric aircraft become common place, but until then, the only way to prevent noise pollution from aircraft seems to be to limit their number in the sky. People have a right to listen to the birds, the wind, a stream, and silence. We're getting to the point in this country where enjoying the sounds of nature is becoming impossible.

[maehhh]

Here's my suggestion: If you don't like aircraft, don't go for a walk in the direct vicinity of an airfield...?


On this:

From a noise pollution perspective this will be a non-issue as soon as electric aircraft become common place,

A substantial amount of a light aircraft's noise comes from its propeller which electrical aircraft will still require.

[powerless]

Fly gliders instead. Launched by an electric winch of couse.;)

[Pilot DAR]

Light aircraft, indeed all civil aircraft, require noise compliance testing costing tens of thousands of dollars to be noise compliant. Yes, they make noise, if only the motorcycles and Honda Civics with 3 inch exhausts were as few and as quiet....

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi peacefullskies,

I live about ten miles from London Heathrow Airport and next to a road that is a busy commuting road during the week and favourite burn-up track for motorcyclists of a Sunday.

Seven days per week we have Jumbos Dreamers and Airbuses at low altitude arriving and departing in every direction. (We used to have seven Concordes operating which were even noisier).

Each weekday the commuter rush-hour starts at 07:30 hrs and lasts till 09:00 hrs and again at 17:00 hrs and lasts till 18:30 hrs.

The bikes are mostly Japanese models with over-square engines with peak engine revs of about 14,500! They scream up the nearby hill.

About 70% of private flying in the UK takes place here in the South East of England. Nevertheless the gentle drone of little aeroplanes is the very least of my noise concerns.

BP.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I think I've only completely managed to avoid traffic noise on a country walk by first driving several miles out into the central Australian desert, and that only worked because I was the only person who had that idea down that road on that day.

[jollyrog]

If you don't like the noise, you can badger your local aerodrome to stop the aeroplanes flying over your house. They can impose noise sensitive routes and abatement procedures on the resident pilots. Clever stuff, like a 20° turn on departure, so that the offending aircraft actually pass 300 metres to one side of your house. Then the problem goes away and you won't have any noise any more.

Everyone knows light aircraft are silent, except when they're directly overhead your house.

[tmmorris]

Peacefullskies (is that a clever name I don't understand, or is it just spelled wrong?), if you come onto a pilots' forum and ask if we think we make too much noise and should shut up, what sort of answer do you anticipate?

Here's a question you could pose on a motorcyclists' forum: how many motorbikes should we accept before we consider the noise is too great? Actually, go into a bikers' bar and ask them face to face.

[Whopity]

Jet Noise - The sound of freedom
http://richardrottman.com/bentcorner.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/sound-of-freedom-e1329655661233.jpg

[Pilot DAR]

Peacefull,

You will find that most pilots are quite aware that their aircraft produce noise, and they go to an effort to reduce the affect on the people on the ground. Aircraft undergo rigorous noise testing to verify noise standards are met. This is very costly. Indeed when I modified a client's plane to have quieter propellers, for which he paid $30,000, it took 9 months, and $5000 worth of my time to convince the regulator that a $15,000 noise test should not be required. They expect us to do these tests even when we modify the aircraft to make it more quiet and fuel efficient!

Yet, there are business out there specifically modifying cars and trucks to have louder exhausts! And then their clients drive these loud cars up and down the roads, revving engines to attract the opposite sex. Or, the bikers rev their bikes for no motoring reason, and I cannot talk to my wife who is on the sidewalk right beside me.

I live three miles from train tracks and a very busy highway, and four miles from a lake and and aerodrome which homes several loud Cessna 185's. I regularly hear the cars, bikes and trucks, trains, and some loud boats. Only occasionally do I hear a plane takeoff from the same distance away.

I agree that planes make noise, there is simply no way around it. Owner's pay costs for the noise compliance of their aircraft. Pilots should be expected to be neighbour friendly the best they can. Would the operators of the other offensive vehicles strive to be equally neightbour friendly in what the operate, and how they do it?

Cars in my province must undergo emissions testing for compliance every two years. They seem to pass even when modified with louder exhausts - noise is an emission too! If I modified the exhaust of my plane, it would be grounded until proven compliant - at great cost.

Perhaps your choice of objection is not well aligned with your chosen audience....

[worrab]

...but why do so many light aircraft exhaust pipes point downwards? (And does it make a difference?)

[peacefullskies]

Yes motorcycles and traffic can be loud, but at least it is possible to get away from it. Small planes, on the other hand, can intrude on your silence even many kilometers away from the nearest road. Relaxation recordings of waterfalls, rustling leaves, insect sounds, etc... never include the drone of small aircraft in the background, and the reason is because that aircraft is an intrusion on those beautiful sounds of nature. I notice that many of you are not living in the United States. Unfortunately, for reasons outlined in the article linked below, the US has a huge number of small aircraft, the majority of which are used solely for recreational purposes. The problem I'm dealing with is that the hobby of pilots is interfering with my favorite recreational activities, enjoying the sounds of nature. I go to a park that is 10 kilometers away from an airport, and still there is a constant parade of small planes all day long. Unfortunately the sound of small aircraft travels very far, and when you're hiking and start to hear a plane approaching from the south, it will take several minutes for the plane to pass by and the noise disappear; and when it does, ooops...here comes another one, or another two. I'm posting on this site not to badger, but in hopes of finding real solutions, because I really want to be able to enjoy the sound of the wind in the trees and the sounds of birds.

USA Today Article (http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2009-09-17-little-used-airports_N.htm)

[S-Works]

I thought it was quiet under bridges........ :rolleyes::rolleyes:

So let me get this right, you want other people to give up there hobby or business travel so you can here the birds and the bees? :ugh:

[A and C]

It is not the noise itself that is the problem but the way in seen by the person that it is irritating.

You will note that above light aircraft and motorcycles are the focus of this because those complaining about the noise can't see the reason why people should want to partake in motorcycling or recreational aviation. Added to this some just don't like to see people enjoying themselfs whatever the recriational activity, for these people the fact that legislation has reduced considerably the noise from modern motorcycles and aircraft is not the issue, it is just they don't like you enjoying yourself.

I at one time lived on the final approach at Wycombe air park and was regularly accosted by those drumming up support for restrictions on flying because of noise, I had to point out to these people that the sound of lawn mowers drowned out the noise from the aircraft and that maybe they should start by taking action against the source of the loudest noise.................the reply to my comment was that lawn mowers are essential and light aircraft are not ! With logic like that I could ban every thing from opera to football on grounds of noise pollution.

The trouble is that for some obsessive people the noise is just a way of justifying a way of stoping other people enjoying themselfs, a number of years back I was asked by a model flying enthusiast if I would help him launch a radio controlled glider with a bungee. He had taken to flying the glider because the local councelers had band powered model flying on some days of the week because of noise complaints. It was not long before the police turned up because someone had complained about the noise, clearly they had seen a model aircraft, and decided to stop the fun, a noise complaint being the logical way to do this.

Fortunately having inspected the noisy glider the police decided to caution the person complaining about the noise for waisting police time...........following this inccident the complaints about noise from model aircraft almost stopped.

I do have some sympathy for those on the ground, there was one guy who regularly practiced aerobatics over the same location on weekday evenings, it is hardly suprizing the locals did not like this, as a body of aviation enthusiasts we should fly consideratly and if we do so it will only be the fanatics that complain, the problem is to isolate them from the people who sign the activists petitions just to get them off the doorstep.

[xrayalpha]

Dear Peacefullskies,

Welcome to pprune.

Thanks for the interesting article from USA Today.

It does, however, seem to defeat your argument! With maybe 6-8 flights a day - as reported - from most airports, that's not a lot of noise!

The American system of local airports is the envy of the world.

The vast open spaces are also something to be envied too - I know, I have flown an ultralight across the USA.

I really think, in Oregon, you can find some places where outside noise will be unobstrusive. Getting peace and quiet - of any kind - in Los Angeles or NYC is another matter.

Very best wishes with your interests in nature, you'll find many pilots share them too.

And you will find many airfields are, in fact, wildlife sanctuaries. Something they wouldn't be if concreted over with housing estates as wished for by one person quoted in the USA Today article.

[cumulusrider]

At our gliding club we are very aware of the noise of our tug aircraft. We use robin DR400s in the main fitted with 4 blade props and hush kits. They are very noticably quieter than the standard aircraft with a 2 blade prop we occasionaly use in competitions.
Why the average spam can is quite so noisy I cannot understand. Modern road vehicles are fitted with effective silencers so why cannot aircraft?
The pitch of the noise is also a factor. 2 stoke engines ith a 2 blade prop are particularly anoying.
Having said all this the modern 'sperm' shaped light aircraft with water cooled engines are remarkably quiet
As a biker also i feel qualified to coment on their noise levels. Standard exhausts tend to be acceptable but far too many fit 'performance' or 'straight through' exhausts. The Harley Davidson poser crowd seam to be particular offenders.

Sit in your garden on a summers day and what do you hear? In my case the distant roar of trafic, kids playing, birds singing. All of which are constant and the brain filters them out. The intermitant noises stand out. A helicopter flying by, emergency service sirens, dogs barking.
A classic example of this is when a woman has a baby she seams to rapidly become deaf to the noises. A visitor is soom wincing.

[thing]

You visit women having babies?

[sunday driver]

...but why do so many light aircraft exhaust pipes point downwards?

... to stop them filling up with rain ? :rolleyes:

SD

[Johnm]

Peacefulskies: first quite a few people in US and Europe use light aircraft as a mode of transport, much like a car. I am one of those.

Secondly I live and work in the country. We tolerate tourists even though they leave gates open and let their dogs chase the sheep! We live in the UK a very small and densely populated island so live and let live is essential and i see and hear birds, bees, butterflies and many animals. I also hear the river running through the old mill race in the village.

I enjoy all these sounds despite tractors, combines, light aircraft, big jets, motorcycles, cars and buses.

There are places where you would rarely here an aircraft or traffic but you have to be many miles from any urban area. 10km won't cut it you need to be 50 miles away at least.

So stop being so prissy and enjoy the beauties of planet earth including the achievements of mankind, like flight!

[Pilot DAR]

One or two of those recreational planes flying over the wilderness are pilots, who either are, or will go on to become, search and rescue pilots, and boy o boy, will the wilderness users be happy to hear a plane coming when they need one!

I have volunteered my planes for that service, and have been called upon an average of once a month for more than twenty years. Zero cost to the community, and at least three lives saved for certain during that period, as well as countless hours of ground searching saved.

My use of a local provincial wilderness park with my flying boat, is conditional upon only a landing and a takeoff (no circuits), and making my knowledge of the park's remote regions available for public safety - which could include flying searches - though I have yet to be called there. Everything involves compromise, knowing and being able to search requires aircraft and practiced overflight.

Prior to purchasing the property in 1988, where I now live with my two planes, I borrowed the loudest Cessna 185 amphibian I could, and flew back and forth up and down what would be, and is now my runway. I then drove around and introduced myself to each of the neighbours. I explained that all that noise was me, but not my "regular" plane. If they would not accept that noise, I would not buy and build. No objections then, or at any time since. The community knows that my planes are at the public service, and I have no reason to think that the planes are not entirely welcomed.

That said, I still do fly them with the greatest possible regard for minimizing noise impact on the ground.

[englishal]

Every time I hear a light aircraft, I look up and wonder....what type it is, what are the flight conditions like, where could they be going....and I think to myself, lucky bugger!

Equally when I hear that two wheeled dream machine hammering down the road at 2am giving it some, I am just waiting to hear the smash as he loses it on the corner. I don't find it particularly annoying though, each to their own, there is plenty of space for us all to fit in.

Actually on the subject of noise...yea sure you can hear a light aeroplane. But a lot of the time above a few thousand feet the noise level is really low. I think people just wind themselves up about noise and make it seem worse than it actually is.

[jetsetter250]

I rather enjoy the sound of light GA aircraft. But something tells me the original poster probably bought a house 2 miles from an airfield and feels entitled to silence anywhere in the country. You know what I hate? The sound of cars. The highway, the freeway, the road. I dont live under an overpass or anything, but it seems to me no matter how far I venture out, I can always hear the hum of vehicles in the distance over the sound of the wind in the trees. You know what else I hate? Artificial light. I'd probably have to trek 300 miles into the wilderness to get away from the night-time glow of the horizon you see from refineries, cities, highways, etc. You know, get out where it's truly dark, and you can see every star in the sky.

Do I complain about these things? NO. Because I choose to live in an area where they exist. I'll go build my log cabin in the mountains if I really want isolation.

The truth is, I really fail to believe airplanes are a nuisance to anyone who does not live very close to an airport. Can anybody actually hear a 172 flying at 3000 ft? Because I dont think anyone is buzzing you at 500 ft unless you live under the runway path.

[thing]

You know what else I hate? Artificial light.

Big amen to that. All of the light that you see on the 'pretty' spacecraft photos of nightime Earth is really miilions of dollars worth of waste, it's supposed to be pointing at the ground, not outer space. It screws up the glory of the night sky for everyone also.

My son lives out in the sticks in Australia and the night sky there is indescribable really, absolutely breathtaking. It could be like that for everyone. I would suspect that the greater part of the world's population have no idea what the night sky truly looks like.

[peacefullskies]

Hi all,
Please remember that every time you fly a small plane, there are hundreds or thousands of people on the ground that are impacted by the noise generated by your hobby. To most people, it is not a pleasant sound and detracts from our ability to enjoy our backyards and parks. Please fly less, or at least fly higher. Thank you.

[S-Works]

What a load of bollox. Get back under your bridge.

[Mach Jump]

What a load of bollox. Get back under your bridge.

A little harsh I feel Bose. :uhoh:

I think that people have every right to expect us to recognise that not everyone loves the sound of aeroplanes, and minimise the irritation we cause.

And Peacefullskies did ask particularly politely.


MJ:ok:

[PA28181]

Please fly less

Apart from the obvious trolling, Please cut your grass less, drive less, ride motorbike less,

MJ, just asking politely doesn't make it valid, wanted, or needed, it's a very arrogant, "request"

I'm with Bose-x on this. "Sod off"

[xrayalpha]

And what is the point of the OP's post?

If there is something in particular that bugged you - ie at lunchtime someone flew round and round my house for 15 minutes as I was trying to have a kip. Why? - then say it.

But your first post on pprune and this are just: I don't like you doing your thing because I want to do my thing.

Yes. That's what it says.

So, b..... off!

[Crash one]

Please don't be such an arrogant pillock and if you hear a "small plane" Duck!