"First Wave"

[fliion]

A third phrase into our lexicon:

"First Wave" / "Rich Rewards" / "Profit Share"

Tut, tut, tut . TCAS ...

Perhaps now an understanding of the impossibility of:

VADE SOLUS -

and should it work .....no doubt riches for the author....crumbs for the minions.

Lest we forget May of '13.

f.

[Payscale]

....come again?..:confused:

[Capt. Flamingo]

13 pages of blah, blah, blah, blah... Pass.

[SOPS]

What? Please say again.

[flaphandlemover]

funny.... I am always ready, on time.... It was never us that delayed the flight...
i am sure " first wave" is the solution.... and i am sure we will be shafted as we did not make it out on time... although never our fault....:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[glofish]

You'd be surprised to find out how many delays are finally blamed on us crew in the system. The usual a$$ covering fiddling with statistics, blaming those who can no longer fiddle along with this pathetic orchestra .....
So logically enough the distant statistics conductor, out of his Costa office, believes that cr@p and finds the perfect remedy for the supposed symptom, not to cure the disease, god help us, no! :ugh:

[CAYNINE]

Four bullet points for Flight Operations is hardly "beating the pilot's heads in".

Most of what was in that document actually refers to all the stuff that you are complaining about.... it comes down to actually carrying out the shut off times and getting pax to adhere to the time protocols and OTP has half a chance, think there are too many looking for too many hidden agendas here.

[Al Murdoch]

Why bother reading it when you can just assume they're having a go at pilots?
:ugh:

[CAYNINE]

Al.... you get a "LIKE" :ok:

[glofish]

I accept your criticism.

Sure enough 4 bullet points do not represent a beating. It's showing the little influence and recognition we have, so basically why bother ....

I only bother when we get the eventual mail from the FDM to explain a delay that was unabashedly blamed on us, without telling and by blatantly altering what had been reported from the CC and our ACARS message!

A meagre 4 bullet points on 13 A4 pages contrasting to getting the full blame and being unaware, that futility of this wave is what i was pointing at.

[michaeljpotter]

I've noticed recently block times getting shorter :ugh: For example 77F to TPE with Block of 8.45 and flt of 8.55??
Its not just this, like glo said - 20 mins before STD gate closed?? Really...so why is it in DOH 2 pax wandering round duty free because they're sat in F are still allowed to travel?
Like everyone said - put the blame on the ones who are easiest to blame - the crews. CC are not doing they're post flight's quick enough which is delaying onward flights - yes I've seen an email to this effect. Pilots not following RTA crap - they want you to not comply with ATC just so EK Ops can have you abide by RTA? :mad:

[givemewings]

30mins for post-flight is not uncommon- and that's going as fast as possible. The amount of double handling that goes on is ridiculous. Half the things the CC have to pick up and put away go right back out on the seats again when the cabin dressing team arrives... :ugh: Time could definitely be saved there...

One flight last week we boarded the aircraft approx 1hr 40 prior to departure. All crew security, catering and cabin checks were complete 1hr10 prior. We stood around for at least 30mins before boarding commenced, despite giving the go ahead when we were ready. To me it appeared no effort was made to hurry the pax. Eventually the door was closed 10mins after dep time. No cargo doors were open. Love to see what the delay got attributed to. The crew I bet, and not pax boarding after sched departute time... :oh:

[michaeljpotter]

I like the fact that a lot of "new" blankets are now used at the end of the flight :E

Ground staff have a huge part in this "first wave" and OTP. Why not say 20 minutes as supposed to be is ACTUAL cut off for closing the gate. No mercy quite simply or ground staff who have the guts to say to a pax important or not. You've missed your flight - take the next one. Why is it that most other airlines don't have the cabin baggage issue?? Or OTP isnt really an issue because they follow SOP's. Ground Crews have procedures, why aren't they brought up for not following. Crew and F/D are ridiculed and I would even go as far as saying 'persecuted' for not following SOP. Where is the commonality among Ops, Dispatch etc

[givemewings]

True. Hand baggage is definitely not adhered to, especially in premium cabins. Why on earth anyone needs more than a small carry on bag and a laptop or suit bag is beyond me. For goodness' sake, F pax get 50 KILOS of checked baggage! That's more than I moved countries with...

The size gauges at check in counters are clearly for decoration. Have given up even trying since I am overruled almost every time on the item limit. Doesn't matter if it's all within size if they bring 5 pieces each... tthere's nowhere to stow it...

But F & J pax are consistently being allowed to flout the limits and I'm made to look like the wrong one for pointing it out to them. God forbid they might actually have to follow a rule. I hope when there's a hard landing I am not on that flight...

[donpizmeov]

Wings,
I thought you were mix fleeting on the Boeing now? Those landings not hard enough?

The don.

[michaeljpotter]

Wings...totally agree with you but if they are SW Gold/Plat they're entitled to 63kgs.

Lets all be fair...this is just another way of someone justifying the salary they are paid and influencing the position they're in :*

[givemewings]

Michael, even more reason not to bring pointless cr@p onboard... example. 5 suits in a "garment bag" that was more a suitcase and would've been at least 10kg. In addition to the other 3 pieces, for one guy. I get carrying on a suit if going direct to a meeting, but 5??

Don, I didn't mean one of yours... :E I meant Asiana style... to be fair to the B fleet, the 380 guys seem to be banging it on a lot more lately... then again we have been getting upgrades from the triple, haven't we? ;) alright alright, hat, coat....


seriously though, if they started enforcing the carry on rules at checkin and again at security, a fair few delays would be avoided.

[White Sausage]

Who cares??? After they stole the profit share from us (again), I don´t know anyone who still gives a :mad: about OTP, fuel saving or anything else. I treat them like they treat me, end of story.

[michaeljpotter]

White - the new joiners who are bright eye'd and bushy tailed! New joiners still treat pax like they're gods. We all know - most of the ones who think they are should be :mad:

Wings - I totally agree with you. Extreme amounts of resentment at the moment. Knowing a senior manager personally he is well aware but as he puts it his hands are tied.

Having read the guidlines - its all a load of :mad::mad:

[BigGeordie]

LR3, apparently our leaders have just realized that our on time performance isn't *cough* very good, especially during the morning rush. Clearly this can't have anything to do with airspace and airport problems so it must be down to the employees not doing their jobs properly. Hence the moral boosting "First Wave" project. You just know somebody got a najam for that idea.

[The Outlaw]

Does anyone really give a rats ass anyway?

[Panther 88]

"Casual disinterest". That's very good.

[captainsmiffy]

'casual disinterest' should be elevated to the dictionary (!!) and 'are we attacking someone.....' priceless! I guess that ye reap what ye sow comes to mind.....absolutely no motivation or leadership from the top, guess its beginning to show.

[Wilya]

I will take their aircraft from A to B as safely as possible. Nothing more, nothing less...

[teddyman]

Behold in the Sand Pit. First Wave is a well known Ryanair concept:ouch:

I Guess the happy days are gone and only competition counts. So buckle up and
enjoy the ride. Grass is always greener on the other side:cool:

[falconeasydriver]

My vote to contacted's post, for post of the week, "casual disinterest" utterly superb, accurate and completely factual :ok:

[Desert Dawg]

Let's hope that a hole in the ground doesn't happen due to the lack of interest shown by management et al...

I fear the sentiment expressed by Wilya may not be enough to prevent the appearance of said hole....

As said so many times before... things are fine until disaster happens... I hope I am not there when it happens.

[halas]

Another time waster is the connecting of the bridge or stairs.

Best so far is 28 minutes from shut down.

Other day took a photo of the bridge driver in his car on his mobile.
Eight minutes later the door opens.
He came straight to the flight deck and started sucking up to us. Showed him the photo and he asked me to delete it, then started getting defensive.
I pointed out that l don't give a ****, but the next crew waiting in their bus just mite!

halas

[fliion]

They should let the 'Pacific Brand' gang run the First Wave - take a leaf out of their book on how to treat the crew & ground staff...

...be like a Swiss train station around here in no time.

f.

[fatbus]

What about subload during the wave?

[glofish]

QED:

Motivated staff and caring leaders are both oxymorons in the ME.

[Likeitis]

The following is quoted this month from the CEO of the most profitable airline in history. Pretty obvious way to run things but you need leaders who have to ability to check their ego's at the door of which is almost nonexistent in the ME.

Copied from their inflight magazine:

Our People formula is pretty simple: We hire for attitude and train for skill. Fortunately, because of our Brand rankings, great pay and benefits, history of no layoffs or furloughs, and our world-famous Culture, a lot of great folks want to work at Southwest. This means our pool of potential Employees is chock-full of the best and brightest. In fact, last year we received 114,845 résumés and only hired 2,499 candidates. (A person has a better chance of getting into an Ivy League university than getting hired at Southwest.) We take great pride in hiring the right People and spend a lot of energy on doing so.


Once onboard, we don’t focus intensely on rules or policy applications, except those related to Safety. Instead, we give our Employees the Freedom to be themselves, to do the right thing, and to take care of our Customers. But we do have one rule that overrides all others, and that is The Golden Rule—treating others as you wish to be treated. We’ve found over our 42-year history that if we hire People with passionate Servant’s Hearts and empower them to do what’s right, they will consistently surprise, delight, and amaze our Customers.


By building a Company that is People-centric, we have built the most successful and profitable airline with the best Customer Service in the history of commercial aviation. Thanks for coming along for the ride!

Gary Kelly

Chairman, President, and CEO

[fliion]

Glofish,

I was motivated on hearing about the $800,000,000+ profit....being the largest Intl carrier in the world...on hearing we will be the largest cargo carrier in the world soon...on reaching 76 countries & 134 destinations ...on knowing that we would surely be rewarded for the loosest flight duty rules of any Major in the world by a long shot...on being the largest T7 & A380 operator in the world...

...and then ...

0.5%

Not even a token SRC or two that would have cost nothing.

To use SWAs term - people-centric?

Now that's funny.

Below is an excerpt from what Herb Kelleher (and now GK)has his management team doing on the busiest travel days of the year. I can honestly say if it happened here - I would treat all the Comms coming from above with a little more gravitas:

"At South West Airlines on busiest travel days of the year the executives work alongside baggage handlers, caterers and gate agents to ease their workload; this is a great strategy for boosting the morale of entire South West Airlines staff."

I guarantee you that the effectiveness of the "First Wave" will be more complete if the authors are serious and decide to get their hands dirty as an example to the rest of the staff.

Standing by.

f.
Ps At SWA there are no separate VIP elevators to keep the 'People managers' away from the 'People'

[michaeljpotter]

Fili - you couldn't have put it any better! Btw...clearly I'm so ill informed didn't know they existed in HQ? I thought the elevator was just an elevator. Clearly not :suspect:
I'm obviously not important enough to warrant that information :rolleyes:

Judging by the way some of the SWA do their PA's and in the cabin and their radio comms from the front to ATC is a breath of fresh air. Cant remember hearing a SWA who was pissy at ATC

[jimmyg]

Although I do not work for Emirates I surely feel your frustration as having spent the last 6 years working and flying in the M.E for a company and country with a complete lack of management skills. It is worth repeating what my reply was a couple of year back after one too many poorly written managements memos always entitled "TEAM"

I wrote to a colleague........



If I get another management memo with "team" written 12 times, I think I am going to scream.

Yes my friend we do live in a bottom line kind of world. It is a real balancing act to reduce costs and maintain profitability.

I have always been of the school that one hires the best and brightest and reward those employees for their hard work and dedication. The word "team" nowadays just seems to be an over rot catch phrase for inept management.

One needs to create a corporate culture of an inner sense of excellence, with a desire to serve. This of course is much easier said than done in todays what is in it for me work environment.

One of the most successful models for a company has been Southwest Airlines. Herb Kelleher has shown what can be done for an employee group with outstanding leadership skills. " NUTS! SouthWest Airlines Recipe for Business and Personal Success " should be mandatory reading for all those who wish to manage.

"If the employees come first, then they're happy, ... A motivated employee treats the customer well. The customer is happy so they keep coming back, which pleases the shareholders. It's not one of the enduring Green mysteries of all time, it is just the way it works"

Unfortunately this most common sense basic HR skill does remain a mystery to those self centered egocentric managers who are the first to raise there hands to lead.

[michaeljpotter]

Btw - stole this video from another thread :

http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/521575-ryanair-sacks-captain-goss-6.html#post8008391 - Herb Speaking

[Panther 88]

Wow, good point Varmit. Not only that, your new name tag should reflect the same.

[Al Murdoch]

It's interesting that many pilots at Emirates seem to fancy themselves as managers. I say interesting because pilots, historically, tend to make pretty bad managers. It's also interesting because the same people that bore me to death for hours on end on the flight deck, banging on about how management are useless etc etc, go instantly berserk if management try to interfere in aviation, which apparently they are incapable of knowing anything about because they've never been pilots. The irony of this is usually lost on them.
Just an observation, but I think the subject of company management should be added to religion and politics as being best avoided in polite company.

[glofish]

Today's captaincy has a lot to do with "managing". That may be a reason why pilots dare criticising their managers. By this statement I am not implying that they automatically make better managers, just putting the joke back on Al. Obviously he does not think of himself being a modern " manager-captain".
I do admit though that EK's interpretation of a captain is only remotely what was initially intended by efficient flight ops.

[Capt Groper]

This emphasis on the First Wave assisting is an effective step in achieving OTDs.
Lets hope the pax are informed that EK will no long wait if late at the gate.
They and Slots are the reason why A/C depart late in the morning.
Another fix would be increased flexibility with departure slots through Muscat. More airways through the MCT FIR may avoid the 7 min in trail departures out of DXB to the same FIR entry point.

[Al Murdoch]

Not quite Glofish, I fully embrace the concepts of CRM etc, but I just try and stick to what I know. The rest of the bull****, I just let it flow past me - it's not worth stressing over and there's nothing I can do about it.
Do what they want, fly the plane, go home, get paid. Simple.

[TangoUniform]

Varmint, Your post brought tears to my eyes it was so spot on. However, you did forget to mention the inane policy of checking and rechecking of personal documents in briefing. Is there ANY airline in the entire world that does this? Takes up valuable briefing time.

But we could run this thread to infinity with regard to some of these whacko policies that come from said managers. And that is where our frustrations come in. We are held to a standard to which if said managers where held to the same standard, well we all know what the result would be.:ugh:

[falconeasydriver]

Being part of the "first wave" earlier to day, I noted with interest the general chaos that ensued after Ukraines' finest managed to park a 737 in a rather unfortunate spot.
I wonder how many "safety" debriefings will take place as a result, followed by the aforementioned letters of "ahem" negative feedback :ugh::hmm::hmm:

[harry the cod]

Got to agree with a lot that's being said here although a couple of points from my perspective.

Been around 12 years with no warnings but 4 appreciations. Not after a medal, just doing my job in a professional manner. Have not been 'bothered' once in that time by anyone from management.I would hazard a guess that the same could be said for about 95% of our pilots with 5% getting the warnings. Not saying that all have been deserved, I know for a fact they haven't but in the majority of cases.......

It's very often the same names and people wonder why? Why did I get a fine for not following the yellow path from the bus? Why a salary deduction for missing my dentist appointment for the 2nd time despite a text reminder, why I was called in for not going around despite being unstable, why I continually harass crew, why I was reported for not wearing my hat and looking like a slob and swearing with the F/O in front of passengers at the departure gate. Why? Because most are behaving like dicks and if you can't see by now that EK IS different to your previous airline, then you might as well leave. If you're still struggling to wear plain black socks, or insist on wearing the tie pin still or long sleeve shirts in summer or whatever other little rebellious streak you feel is appropriate, please don't be too surprised when we all have to line up for morning parade uniform inspection before the First wave departs! :ugh:

Top Tip. Follow the rules, go to work, enjoy it, take the money and go home. Don't try to beat the system and don't beat yourself up over what others may or may not be getting.

Varmint. You 'suspect' managers got a bonus or you 'know' they got a bonus? If you know they did, please tell me who and how much because 'I suspect' you simply don't know! If it's any consolation, ask the cabin crew how much of a pay rise they got. At least we got the 3% increment which is 3% more then they picked up.

It stinks but nothing will change short term. Don't ever plan on profit share, you'll only be disappointed every year.

Harry

[TangoUniform]

Harry, in some respects you are correct. But this no longer a pilot group of 800 or so. Prior, it was easy to manage a small group. But now with a pilot group of closing in on 4000, it is no longer possible to manage without consistent and understandable communication.

That too, is where the rub comes in. There will always be a few F.U.'s in any organization and an effectual management would deal with them. But if there is no trend with the rest of the pilot group, why then blast them with less than logical sop's and policies?

Good for you on your stellar record, and of your so far good health. We should all be so lucky. Point being is, I have seen warning letters for sick leave such as broken bones, heart surgeries, cancer, contracted sicknesses....all of which I am sure were deserved because it was the pilots' faults for breaking a bone, getting cancer etc. I have seen warning letters for violations of FTDL, where no written policy was and is in place. Rules on the go. Since you seem to be defending "their" policies, from my perspective, how would you rate the above as being effective management?

And do we need to get into the discussion about the recent DEC policy. We had f/o's with over 20,000 total hours, mostly on wide bodied modern FMS type aircraft, as captain, flying international, passed over by less than 10,000 hour narrow bodied 737NG or 320 captains that the largest body of water ever flown over was the English Channel. But our f/o's didn't have the requisite time on EK aircraft. Effective management?

And there, my friend, is the answer for the line pilots' frustrations of inane policies. It isn't all about MLB and MAN anymore.

[fliion]

Harry - nice post, all good points especially the 5% crew...

...but don't for a second believe that your 12 years will result in any goodwill should the brand be impacted by one bad day at the office.

f.

[Al Murdoch]

I take all the above points in the spirit they're meant. I find myself siding with Harry of course...
I do have one point though - when exactly do you do training courses without pay? I don't know which contract you're all on, but I get a salary every month. Quite a generous one.

[michaeljpotter]

Varmint, Tango, Couldn't agree with you fella's more. Really, I understand the frustration and as you rightly said - doesn't matter if you've put 25 years in with not a single incident they will throw you out for the smallest matter without thought or care to you, your life, your family and general well being.
But lets not forget this vindictive and scare culture started a few years ago already in the back.
Now with the guys in the back its gone from bad to worse - a 25fil hourly pay rise??? 25 fil's is worth nothing.
If a PUR wants to keep the managers from inserting something into his rear end they are getting worse and worse on crew.

Only the other day for example and this example coming from nearest - Cpt says in briefing to crew to take as much time as needs be for S+Securities. PUR comes on PA and tells crew "Why is no one finished with their checks yet, see this is what I hate if the Cpt says take your time everyone takes far too long - I wish they didn't say these things, now I have to rush. If someone isn't finished within X minutes they will be reported"
Not being paid for home stby (In fairness I dont know how this is for other airlines). Airport Stby - not paid for 3hr 59 if you get pulled out at 3h59 :ugh:
EK response is "we give you a basic salary so any ground time will be accounted by that"
Checking grooming will come to F/D, as Harry said soon enough you'll have a grooming check on each other. Are your shoes clean? Is your shirt ironed? (Not that if you hand it in to Butlers it'll come back ironed anyway, they look better when they've just come out the wash)
F/D have it easier than in the back, there is no question of that. I know as well as everyone else the investment etc required in getting to the front far outweighs the investment of being crew but crew shouldn't be treated any less of human beings than F/D.
Ultimately it comes down to someone who has recently acquired their job or got a promotion is trying to justify this, management who don't like pilots publicly and the greed that has been growing and manifesting within senior culture.

[thegypsy]

harry the cod

What about the warning you got for not wearing your hat?:D

[glofish]

harry


I have received a warning for something that a year later became sop!
Any sort of postdated acknowledgment, not to speak of any apology? :=:=

For my gusto your raybans' tint sometimes look more rose than amber, although some of mine may sometimes be a shade too gray, I admit.

The whole point is that the distant EK-kind of management, with on and off FCIs and all that a$$-covering bs like this new "wave" stuff, just leaves us in a rather sarcastic mood and helps zilch towards the initial intent.

All clear signs of really, really bad management.

Take in Varmints allegation and understand some frustration!

[harry the cod]

Glofish/Varmint/ Tango Uni/fliion et all

We're all singing to the same tune no doubt. Our record is only as good as our last flight regardless of how many years of Najms or years of unblemished service and I'm well aware of that. Agreed too with the fact that there have been some rediculous warnings and letters issued when all it would have taken would have been an extra 5 minutes of research, a phone call and an extra big bollock to stand up to the next level of management.

However, and to the Companies credit, I'm also aware that things have improved regarding disciplinary procedures and that nobody has been fired in the last few years in which, quite frankly, they hadn't deserved. I therefore go to work, do the job to the best of my ability and try to make myself and the rest of the crew have a good day out... or is often the case, night out! Too many are constantly looking over their shoulder and that, to me, is not how the job should be done. This job is what you make of it, regardless of who you work for.

My frustrations rest with the minority of pilots who can't even do the simple things like put on a standard uniform. I mean, FFS, how difficult can it be. As someone already said, we're not 800 anymore, we're over 3500 and when the Company see a few wayward behaviours, they carpet bomb every bugger and we all suffer.

These forums are our chance to vent our frustrations with the Company. It's also our chance to vent frustrations with the minority of idiots who seem hell bent on screwing it up for the majority. I've worked too bloody hard getting this far to have some dip**** take my first class entitlement away because he or she wore jeans or have any other hard earned perk removed due to the indifference, belligerence or downright stupidity of a minority.

I'm just a little surprised that more people don't use peer pressure or intervention on the line to highlight such behaviour to these few idiots.

Harry

P.S When did I get a warning for not wearing my hat? I'm getting forgetful in my old age but I don't remember that.....I love my hat! ;)

[captainsmiffy]

Harry....there's me in my naivety thinking that 'FFS' stood for 'full flight sim'....tsk tsk!!!

[fliion]

Harry

Couldn't agree with you more on the: un-ironed shirt, scruffy shoes, hat stuffed in bag, "the book says I dont have to shave" crew.

It's a social intelligence issue i.e. no concept or acceptance of the idea that "You're always been watched."

Whatever about the Co....always honor the profession.

f.

[Desdihold]

Fliion , you are spot on, always honor the profession. We are pilots not drivers.
The spiked hair and George Michael stubble is getting out of hand, it may have worked at RYR but don't bring it here.

[givemewings]

If anyone is going to lose you guys travel bennies, I don't think it'll be a pilot it'll be one of the cling-ons who can't seem to grasp common manners when they travel and treat the staff like personal slaves. Seeing too much of it lately, do you think they might run a course on "how not to be a jerk in premium cabins" by any chance?

Agree re: carpet bombing, one person does something dumb and the rest pay for it- example- document checks outstation. I do love how at every briefing the skipper asks if everyone has their passport. We've been checking that stuff since day dot for the CC.... trust me, it's been done.... and done.... and done.... ;) :ok:

[White Knight]

George Michael stumble

Stumble? I'm sure that's a typo:cool: But then again @fliion I've had designer stubble since I was about 15 years old........... Care to write me up in a CSR ar ASR????????????

What YOU do and what I do are obviously worlds apart:=:=:D

[pilotday]

1. Forget about a little stubble, what about Osama bin Laden beards???

- 100% oxygen may actually cause a greasy beard to spontaneously combust

- The eros mask will not make a tight seal during depressurization.


2. Pilots who don't wear t-shirts under their uniform shirt

- I can clearly see your nipples

- I can also see a nest of sparrows in your chest hair

[michaeljpotter]

LLander.

Firstly you're very polite, in general your posts are always very polite just wished to make a mention of that.
I do see what you're saying with regards to putting your nose into it, I for one can say as I've been on the other side I do know what goes on and actually its quite refreshing when the "front" take an interest in the cabin.
I do my level headed best to help the crew as much as I can because I know what they have to deal with.
I think that there should be more emphasis on 'across the line' comms of crew/flight crew.
Sorry I'm a bit confused as to what you mean by the "are Gen Y" meaning female gender? :O
I do get the fact that some will take a mile if you let them but the verbal support from the front helps massively in the back when dealing with anything and I don't think its right for a PUR to undermine the PIC as at the end of the day - his name is on all the docs as you said and its his responsibility.

Unfortunately the clueless PUR make the job just that much harder.

[LongLander]

Thanks, Mr. Potter, I do see your points (all of them) but have a different outlook to some of them.

Generation Y is a demographic group having birthdates generally agreed as being from early '80s to early 2000s and are typified in various ways including, but not limited to, the display of a sense of entitlement and narcissism. In my opinion, these traits show up in many of the events I hear about taking place in the cabin amongst the crew. I never get involved unless it transcends the usual pettiness and affects the safety of the flight.

Yes the purser shouldn't undermine the PIC but perhaps this purser saw herself as having been undermined by the PIC in the first place and in conjunction with a process of which the PIC knows little anyway. If he left her to it, it would probably turn out just fine. There are better ways to do things like that.

[falconeasydriver]

Generation Y is a demographic group having birthdates generally agreed as being from early '80s to early 2000s and are typified in various ways including, but not limited to, the display of a sense of entitlement and narcissism.

Sorry I'm a bit confused as to what you mean by the "are Gen Y"


Summed up nicely by a clever fellow once with the observation "they are all too well aware of THEIR rights, but sadly utterly unaware of their responsibilities"

Gen 'Y" in a nutshell....

[givemewings]

LongLander, true it's the Capt's responsibility but the thing I find annoying is that presumably it's always been the case (OM-A has been around longer than this fairly recent 'policy') so now they get on it because of one or two people who couldn't manage themselves well enough to have their documents- probably the same ones who shouldn't be allowed out unsupervised ;) The thing is there are much more important things they should be using their time on, but we know they love to be reactive rather than proactive. Plenty of other issues that get brought to their attention that could use the effort but go untended....

Actually "cling-ons" generally refers to anyone not directly employed by the company who uses a staff benefit... and I've noticed it from all types not just wives/girlfriends/husbands.... the point is I actually can put up with the "difficult" pax more... why you ask? Because unlike most cling-ons the majority have actually paid a full fare for a ticket. And staff should know better. You're right I do check the PIL for staff- not to pick on them- but because I like to know where they are in case I might need them or for service recovery for a full fare pax eg IFE not working.

You'd be amazed at how many people on ID90 get snotty at being asked to switch seats. Sorry but if you pay 10% of a fare then you move for the full fare pax. Staff can have an unbelievably entitled attitude sometimes- and not just 'Gen Y'. (Of course this would not apply to those who paid confirmed or ALT) On my travels I have never refused a request to move- even when the crew wrongly did it on an ALT... because I know that by doing so perhaps we'll retain the customer who would otherwise have taken their money elsewhere...

However once they see the PIL, some of the snooty CC are always ready to find fault in the fat wives And sadly it often goes the other way too- some family members (but for some reason esp the women) go out of their way to make the flight hell for the female crew. Funny, they never seem to do it to the guys.... Anyway. I suspect the crappy behaviour of some staff travellers is something that will never change because the airline do not seem to punish anyone for it when it's reported (and it would need to be pretty extreme to report it) I just can't wait til some of them try their antics on QF, they're in for a rude shock that's for sure! :}

I agree with Michael- it's nice to have the backup of the Skipper esp when the Purser is getting up you for "taking too long" with security checks. Out of DXB they should be relatively simple but if catering load the carts without seals the crew are required to physically check each one. Get lumped with a large galley and no seals and doing it by the book can take upwards of the allotted 15min max. I've actually advised I needed more time due to various reasons only to find the Pur has let them auto board anyway. Good thing I never found anything in the last couple of areas to be searched (yes I submitted a conf safety report) So yes sometimes it does make a difference if you are keeping an eye on things in back....

Anyway back to 'First Wave'- anyone noticed an increase in offloading of baggage for late pax? Coz we all know that's probably the biggest reason for flights leaving late- failure to enforce the boarding cutoff times.

[BYMONEK]

Longlander

Quick comment regarding you view on the Captain's involvement with cabin crew. While I agree that micro management should not be encouraged, I also take the view that as Captain, you take responsibility for everything that takes place under your watch. We have to delegate and we have to place trust in those that we delegate too. The importance therefore of that initial 3 minute briefing can never be underestimated. There is an increasing number of guys who feel their job stops at the armoured flight deck door and this impression is made during the brief.

I am one of 'those' that support the crew in the process of security checks as I've seen all too often checks being rushed and completed to a substandard due to pressure from 'scared' pursers who are badgered by ground staff who themselves are put under pressure. Guess where it all starts? Stupid initiatives such as 'FIRST WAVE'! Every year is it mentioned during our recurrent training about items being left undiscovered on board for multiple sectors. If numerous crew are failing to complete checks properly, this is a systemic problem. That doesn't mean we can't take ownership of it if the threat is a known one. in fact, I would consider it negligent for NOT acting on it. Locking ourselves behind the door with the attitude of 'not my aisle pal' is hardly the behaviour of a person in full authority.

There are many ways we can achieve a safe and efficient operation and I'm sure you've been here long enough to know which of those ideas are effective and which aren't. However, to lay responsibility at their door only and not accept some form of of involvement yourself is hardly command material.

Playing the role of Captain is easy. Being a Commander is more difficult and takes effort. I like to put the effort in as I find the benefits more rewarding.
;)


ps You comment about British Captains having fat wives is a complete generalisation and one I find offensive. Please remove it or I will be forced to put my wife on a strict diet with immediate effect! :O

[LongLander]

Ms. Wings, it's great that you are still somehow a believer but please don't be too hasty to put all pax ahead of all staff at any cost. The staff (like us) are the ones flying max hours, day and night, being shafted like the crew just were with the new pay structures, no Cher despite massive profit, etc etc.

They may've only paid 90% OF THE FULL RACK RATE FARE, PLUS TAXES, but they might also have just spent a few extra unplanned days on "vacation" courtesy of full loads and their sub-load fare status. The down side of staff travel.

Add to that the long haul more than 50% of us endure just to get home to N. America, S. America, NZ and Australia and I'd say you could maybe go a little more easy on them, don't you? Maybe even ignore them when some big mouth from you-know-which subcontinent is loudly complaining about the IFE. But give the jumeirah janes hell... :ok:

Yes they might feel entitled however regardless of the fare, they DID pay for a seat... and a meal which is often not supplied, and an IFE which crew might deny them for someone else, and a safe flight. We need to look after each other because no one else is going to.

Offloads?? They tried this a few years ago and it lasted a week before habibis turned up late, were told they were offloaded and then had the ground staff sacked after complaining to their cousins, etc.


This Wave is nothing more than willy-waving to show those up higher that "something is being done" and secure this year's bonus. They don't expect you to take it seriously! Can't believe anyone's even discussing it. You won't even hear reference to it in another couple of months.


edit:
PS" BYMONEK I completely agree.

And regarding the fat wives - they're a fat juicy target, I couldn't help, myself!

[givemewings]

LL, I think you misunderstand me. I'm not talking about "all pax" ahead of staff. I do look after my fellow crew (flight and cabin) I was mainly referring to those times when the poor (nice) customer has had the same thing happen on multiple flights and there is no other option but to ask someone to switch. It's my last resort and not something I always do. If the passenger is being abusive or otherwise crossing the line I prefer not to ask a staff pax to switch (just rewards bad behaviour, imho)

I get that staff are mostly on their vacation time... I usually am too... ;) But on the few occasions where I've had a serious IFE breakdown, and asked a staff member if they would kindly switch, the attitude I've copped has been ridiculous. (And no the seats themselves were not broken, it was the tv- and I always try to ask someone who is clearly NOT watching their tv to change) I might add it has never been the staff member themselves, usually the cling on. This points to a lack of 'education' by the staff member to their travelling beneficiaries. I bet if some of you knew what they got up to you would be appalled.... :E

BymonEK, I agree, all this "on time" stuff doesn't help when it comes to getting crew to do things like security checks. I often feel like the lone salmon swimming upstream when it comes to stuff like this. But I guess at the end of the day all I can do is make sure I do my bit properly and encourage the others to do the same... though it seems not much point if half of them are not... A better option would be to have security contractors to do the search like in certain outstations but we all know why that is not possible.

Agree- management need to put their foot down on this "wasta" stuff and perhaps the top few need to have a word with their influential friends as to why sacking people for doing their jobs as required is not a good idea.... you can't have both.... either wasta or On Time Departures. I think some of these latecomers would get a shock in certain parts of the world, in fact I have witnessed the tantrums when they have been offloaded and thought good, perhaps they will think about others for a change instead of expecting a planeload of people to wait on their leisure... if you are that important get a private jet... some of the wealthiest most 'important' people who fly on ME airlines manage to be on time, why not others??

[Capt Groper]

Wasn't the thread about the First Wave. It seems to have transgressed sometwatt.

[BYMONEK]

Capt Groper

I'm not so sure it's as much of a forum transgression as you might think....even if I'm considered 'some twatt'! ;)

'First Wave' is an initiative set up to improve the on time departure of our morning flights in the hope that if these are on time, we're less likely to incur reactive delays throughout the day. Whilst the principle is fine, the execution is not.

Firstly, with so many flights departing around the same time there is simply not enough space at DXB to allow multiple pushes. DXB, I hate to say, is hardly the best designed airport around, despite the glossy media images. Most of these morning delays are due to ATC congestion, either airport or route and it will only get worse! Secondly, no flight crew or cabin crew wants to make their day longer than it needs to be so our incentive for an early departure is a given. Rarely is the delay due to flight or cabin crew anyway. The problem arises when other departments such as Engineering, dispatchers, gate agents, check in staff etc want to push for on time, mainly to ensure that a delay code is not attributable to them. This harassment, subtle or otherwise, impacts on us. Cabin crew rush their checks, accept excess hand luggage or perhaps a drunk passenger all because others are rushing them and don't want to take ownership of the problem. Once that door is closed, the problem becomes ours to deal with. Do the majority of our cabin crew have the experience, maturity and confidence to say stop or slow down? Are they confident that their 'approachable' manager will support them in that decision? Twice recently I've had pursers tell me that a request has come through on KIS to explain why they left the briefing room 1 minute late or why the bus left 1 minute late. I'm not making this up. Next time you fly, ask the crew and see what pressure these guys are under. We've all seen the standard and experience levels of the new cabin crew and how it compares to the majors out there so you decide if these policies impact on our operation. Finally, how many times has a tech log item been prematurely signed off by the engineer only for the delegated technician fail to complete. At least 3 times in my last year alone. Two were insignificant, but the process is flawed. The holes are there and next time the outcome may be more serious. ASR's may help but guess who gets the direct blame! I don't need the engineer to change, I need the system to.

As pilots we're trained and constantly reminded on recurrent courses about the threat of distractions and how to manage them. Yet you only need to see how hung up most guys are about briefing the crew on time. Sod the important stuff or something new you might miss in the 5 pages of Mumbai Notams, just make sure we start the cabin crew brief at STD-83.

This incentive is not designed for us. It's designed for the people who get the 'customers' to us. If the Company was that concerned, I'm sure we'd be given the legally correct reporting time for the time we're expecting to start work. As they don't deem it necessary, then neither do I. As STD -83 approaches (23 minutes before official report time), who cares? I go when we're ready, not when an unofficial piece of paper tells me too. I just wish more of us did the same. The choice is still there to brief either the cabin crew or your colleague on the bus just so long as you remember to check your docs before you leave EGHQ.

'First Wave' will not be an acceptable excuse stood in front of the safety review board after missing that vital but well hidden notam, MEL or suspicious package regardless that the aircraft departed on time. It needs to arrive on time too....and in one piece!

Hurry up and fly safe guys and gals! :E

[Praise Jebus]

When preparing for a 'First Wave Departure' I like to save time, so no T shirts for me.... I choose the all new silicon "Nipple Suppressor" from Pilot Essentials. Available in two natural shades to match all body tones, the Nipple Suppressor will keep you safe from those embarrassing moments when @pilotday stares at your chest. No more pencil erasers poking from my shirts.....Thank you Pilot Essentials...you're the man....:ok:

[Al Murdoch]

Mr. Murdoch, report to the psych in your home country and have your head read.
Thanks for your tremendously patronising comments. Just to be sure, I checked my contract and what it says is that I am required to work reasonable additional hours as the company may direct.
To me, that doesn't seem an unreasonable set of requirements. This is a professional job, it requires study and dedication. If you want to be paid flying pay for every hour you put into it, I think it is you who needs to seek professional help old bean, because it ain't happening in this or any other airline. If you want to be paid like you work in McDonalds, then I'm sure it could be arranged. I would be careful what you wish for, personally.

[pilotday]

never expected so much backlash from the t-shirt recommendation, lol

Then show those things to the world, be proud, give the cabin crew something to snicker about, its a long flight. Might as well draw a penis on your forehead, it would be less obvious.

enough snark for today

bye bye

[donpizmeov]

Great. I can see the new online learning courses now. " RNP: reducing nipple popping"; "MNPS: male nipple popping syndrome"; "NATS: nipple appreciation and teasing suggestions".

The don

[FUSE PLUG]

FANS - False Appreciation of Nipple See-through

Also, with regard to generational issues, We have Gen Y Captains at this airline who do their job as required and just as well as anyone else no matter the age. Lets leave stereotypes out of the aircraft and assume, if only for just a moment, that everyone is apt, proficient, and safe regardless of generation when it comes to the operation of EK aircraft.

[Capt Groper]

I agree entirely, my comment was after reading givemewings obsevations of female ID travellers' interpersonal behaviour. Thats where my spelling error occured. Pronunciation can go two ways and the sounding may have only a geographical understanding.

[Ludwig t M]

You've got it! All the points everyone complains about are being tackled here. Only if everyone actually tried to be Ready to Go!!

The only other sensible Pilots, on the subject are Harry the Cod and Capt Groper.

The others can complain a little less and try being professional for once.

Has any one bothered to check the OTP since the First Wave implementation? Regularly meeting targets except the RtG which is largely up to the crew!!:D

[Gulf News]

Ludwig my friend, not a great first post. I think that you are delusional. RTG means all doors closed. It is a regular occurrence to have the cabin doors closed with cargo/bags still being loaded. The closure of cargo and bulk doors is beyond the control of the FD crew. When the dispatcher comes to collect the final paperwork from the cockpit and asks if the cabin doors can be closed he is always asked how long will it take close the lower doors. The answer is always 5 minutes Captain, almost scripted. If I had a hundred dirhams for every "5" minutes I have spent waiting for the cargo doors to close I would have been able to retire years ago.

There is not one flight crew member that I know who would deliberately delay door closure unless there was a very good reason. RTG can and is often not met because we are waiting for missing passengers, technical issues or seating problems which once again is beyond the control of the crew.

I concede that there has been a significant improvement since the recent focus however laying the blame on the crew for not meeting RTG targets is simplistic and naive however symptomatic of an EK managers view of the operation. You wouldn't happen to be one would you ? If so can I suggest a bit more time closer to the coal face.

[harry the cod]

Ludwig t M

Thanks for the endorsement but to be honest, I'm not a great fan of rushing crew either. I do accept that some in the left seat are either incapable or unwilling to use some basic common sense but campaigns such as can have a detrimental effect at times. Here's my example;

Recent flight, 5 pax down, 15 minutes before STD. Despatcher says they'll start looking for bags but will accept pax if they turn up as bags in different containers and may take time. I agree. While we wait, F/O tells me last Captain had similar situation but insisted on doors being closed at STD-3 as he didn't want delay down to him?!! :ugh: Obviously the option of loading late pax if they show now gone. Delay was 15 minutes in the end looking for offload bags. Not sure if they ever did turn up but may have been a poor decision if they had.

Fast forward to us and 4 of the 5 turn up. Immigration was the issue and the party of 4 passengers were majorly grateful for us still accepting them. Luckily, the 1st bag actually found was of the 5th person who never turned up so we pushed 10 minutes late after small ATC delay.

I know that 5 minutes difference between the two is neither here nor there and that the timing could have gone either way but the actual decision of the other Captain concerned me. His thought process was based on 'rules' and, dare I say it, fear? It's this perceived time pressure that makes some of our less experienced, or perhaps more paranoid Captains blindly follow the 'recommendations' regardless of what may be the better outcome.

So, 'First Wave' and Company pressure or weak Captains unable to use their resilience and airmanship...or maybe a combination of the two. You decide!

Harry