Our Boys Behaving Badly

[Churchills Ghost]

The story (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2408431/6-British-soldiers-charged-beating-duty-policeman-New-York-bar-brawl-racial-slur.html) of six British Army rugby players beating a New York cop to a pulp in a bar room brawl incited by a racial slur may come across as nothing more than a display of clashing alcohol-fuelled egos but, at the same time, it is important that we encourage servicemen and women to at least try and maintain some sort of dignity, even in their drunkenness!

Yes, bravado and willy-waving can take place (if they must) but the modern soldier should remember (as those before have done) that in such circumstances a degree of restraint is in fact the greater show of strength and decidedly more British.

The armed forces might be one of the last places where some sort of decency and decorum for all "classes" of Brits are taught. Let's keep it that way and lets hold on to our enviable heritage of self-control and basic good manners.

In a related theme and without getting into a religious debate I would add the following: Military Chaplains should have a more rigorous selection process so as to ensure that the Forces not only have "real men" serving as Chaplains in their ranks but those who can contribute towards the cultivation of decent morals, behaviour and good manners. There is so much more that Chaplains could do in the military if they were properly organised and much of it doesn't have to be religious per se but would dovetail with their overall aims of serving others. Notwithstanding the latter, there are of course one or two good Padres in the Forces, but there could be more and again, its something we should hold on to against the tide of politically correct anti-Christian, anti-patriotic and anti-British sentiment which threatens to sweep across our land.

[hanoijane]

Gosh, for a moment there I thought you were going to post on the Al-Sweady Inquiry, UK soldier evidence commencing today.

But it's about British Army rugby players. Phew!

[Churchills Ghost]

for a moment there I thought you were going to post on the Al-Sweady Inquiry

No, that is a far more serious and criminal issue. This is to do with the preservation of day-to-day standards of discipline and basic good manners within the Forces.

[500N]

And especially when representing not only your Regiment but your
country overseas.

[mad_jock]

Called one of them a black b@stard.

Then pulled a knife and cut one of them.

Only got slapped a bit with no bones broken.

Sounds like they were quite restrained.

Rugby tour, infantry regiment and Fijian, remarkable restraint to be honest. Your lucky it wasn't a Ghurkha and he had spat in there general direction.
You can't expect them to turn the aggression off and on with a flick of a switch and still do there jobs.

The taking the mobile phone though was bang out of order.

[Courtney Mil]

All those who are found to fall short of the Army’s high standards will face disciplinary action, up to and including discharge.

...but only once they get out of jail in the States.

[500N]

Courtney

You lived there, how long will they get in jail or
will they be handed over to the UK Mil and flown
out straight away ?

[Churchills Ghost]

And especially when representing not only your Regiment but your country overseas.

Precisely.

Rugby tour, infantry regiment and Fijian, remarkable restraint to be honest. Your lucky it wasn't a Ghurkha and he had spat in there general direction. You can't expect them to turn the aggression off and on with a flick of a switch and still do there jobs.

Quite so. Still, it can do no harm at all to reinforce those standards and practices which have served our military for so long and which is my basic point.

Re: detaining our boys. There should be an inter-forces agreement to have them returned (between NATO nations) and we handle all matters at home.

[500N]

"Re: detaining our boys. There should be an inter-forces agreement to have them
returned (between NATO nations) and we handle all matters at home."


Which is what happens with most US forces in trouble OS isn't it.

I know of a couple of instances here in Aus where they were handed over
and handled by the "ship".

I also know of one who, I think, came back and had to face court.

[Courtney Mil]

While these sort of things are covered in the MoU, it will depend on how serious the assault was.

[Tashengurt]

Hm. So one of them was so insulted he felt he had to nick the blokes phone?



Posted from Pprune.org App for Android

[mad_jock]

your presuming it happen the way the off duty guy reported it.

Blood half the way up the street and only then did the guy pull a knife and cut one of them. If 4 Fijian Scottish regiment rugby players decide to kick your head in your going nowhere after the first punch has been thrown.

More like the insult was given the lads turned towards him. He announces he is a cop and pulls a knife. That doesn't stop them. They advance and he cuts one of them and then realises that they are really not bothered by a blade. He legs it and the blood up the street is the solders blood that got slashed chasing. They catch him and beat him up.

But we will have to see what there side is.

The mobile phone theft is the big issue and indefensible.

Anyway we shall see what colour the judge is and if there is CCTV

I expect the cop is going to have an interesting time at work when he goes back.

[Courtney Mil]

More like the insult was given the lads turned towards him. He announces he is a cop and pulls a knife. That doesn't stop them. They advance and he cuts one of them and then realises that they are really not bothered by a blade. He legs it and the blood up the street is the solders blood that got slashed chasing. They catch him and beat him up.

You were there, then?

[BEagle]

From his nom-de-PPRuNe, I guess mad_jock has rather more experience of such matters than you or I, Courtney....

Theft is one thing, violent assualt occasioning actual bodily harm is, in my view, far more serious.

'Only got slapped a bit', indeed..............:rolleyes:

[mad_jock]

Nope

But you guys have "walk the guilty b@stards in" POV.

And yes I have seen similar situations develop with squaddies and end up with conflicting reports on how it proceeded. In both cases the "victim" ended up being the one that was handed down a sentence for carrying and using an offensive weapon. The fact is when 4 guys who are not strangers to fighting decide to beat up 1 person you don't get a running battle.

So the whole timeline description to me stinks. And instead of presuming they are guilty as reported in the newspaper and we all know how good they are for reporting the facts. we should maybe wait and see what's discovered in court.

As I said the stealing the mobile phone is bang out of order and there are no excuses for it.

But the actual incident has only been reported from one side by a racist cop who bit of more than he bargained for. Who now will have to go back to work with his black/coloured/Hispanic colleagues after allegedly calling some one a "black b@stard" I suspect this won't be his only beating for that comment.

[parabellum]

beating a New York cop to a pulp
That one little phrase took away most of the credibility of your post.

Called one of them a black b@stard.

Then pulled a knife (the trainee policeman) and cut one of them.

Only got slapped a bit with no bones broken.

Sounds like they were quite restrained.

Very much so. I don't approve of what the soldiers did, despite provocation and alcohol but the trainee cop didn't handle himself very well either. Rest assured, the Army will discipline them but the race card is already out so don't expect too much.

As for service chaplains I think you might get a surprise, the last two I had anything to do with were very much soldier's chaplains, one had done about six years in the SAS then left the Army, came back as a chaplain and specialised in airborne forces, the other, on appointment to the Parachute Brigade, went through 'P' Company and then jumped at every opportunity thereafter. There are/were plenty more like them in the forces.

[Archimedes]

No, that is a far more serious and criminal issue. This is to do with the preservation of day-to-day standards of discipline and basic good manners within the Forces.


Er... Isn't it the job of the inquiry to discover whether that's the case? There are allegations that criminal activity occurred, but equally robust denials from those involved.

[Churchills Ghost]

Parabellum/Archimedes - points noted and in general agreement with your comments.

[mad_jock]

Still, it can do no harm at all to reinforce those standards and practices which have served our military for so long and which is my basic point.

And do you have no idea how many turks got beaten up in Germany over the years.

Or how many civis in Aldershot.

Or how many Fishermen in Arbroath. Although to be fair both parties are just as guilty with that one and its certainly not always the fishermen that come off worst.

My worse personal slapping was in Monchengladbach due being miss ID'd as the sweat that had been shagging one of full screws wife's the previous weekend while they were out on exercise. About the only time I was glad to be out drinking with the recce mech's who did break bones. It was usually me stopping them hitting people.

[Davef68]

The court was told that when he identified himself as a policeman and ordered them to back off during the confrontation last Friday, they responded: ‘We don’t care. F*** the police.’

Therein lies one distinction between the cousins and ourselves these days - there is a presumption on respect for authority over there that you just wouldn't get in the UK.

[mad_jock]

Sort of proves what I was saying in this thread though.

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/521212-marines-semper-fi.html

[dctyke]

Their wives say they are innocent victims, the beer was given to them as a gift, they 'put it away' and lost all memory of it. :hmm:

[Basil]

there is a presumption on respect for authority over there
What? Respect for an off duty cop in a bar who has just called you a black bastard??
I don't think so!

Edited to note that subsequent comment suggests that a NYC resident wouldn't normally say 'bastard'. Ah well, we'll wait and see what happens.

[mad_jock]

A Fijians wife would probably say "what's the problem, I get worse than that for changing the TV channel during half time when the rugby's on".

And it turns out said cop got a broken nose, swollen jaw and a few stiches.

Not enough to even get light duty's in my experience.

Its the mobile phone theft which is going to be the issue and there really is no excuse for that.

.

[teeteringhead]

Its the mobile phone theft which is going to be the issue and there really is no excuse for that. To prevent him summoning backup?

Explanation of course, not excuse!

[SASless]

Let's see....Four...Five....Six to One....very brave Lads that it took that many of them to whip One Cop.

No mention of knives or blood trails folks....which nation's news outlets are lying?

All of them beating hell out of One guy....that shows Grit?

Sorry folks....this sounds like six guys out being drunk and aggressive and caused an Affray which under US Law is a criminal offense.


Except for the SOFA between the UK/USA, the six would be spending quite a bit of time as guests of the State of New York Prison System.

Six big brutes beating up on One person just is not the done thing and you all know it.

Stealing the Phone was a bad move as well.

This just proves.....you show your Ass in Public....and you get it put into your hands afterwards.

This is not a Yank/Brit/Fijian/Army/Cop thing......this is a Criminal Assault case.

Ask who threw the first punch....and there is your Perp.



Now the US News version of the event.....not quite as dramatic as the UK versions. Perhaps our Media is more friendly towards the Military....of any country than are the UK Papers.

UK soldiers suspected of beating NYC cop outside bar - U.S. News (http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/02/20289221-uk-soldiers-suspected-of-beating-nyc-cop-outside-bar)

No Cookies | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/british-soldiers-attacked-ny-cop/story-fni0xqll-1226708780275)

[Hell Man]

The Cop was wrong to pull the knife....it should have been a Gun and some folks should have been shot

Yeee haa !!!!

Amen brother. Let's get to it. :ok:

http://kamychetty.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/manwithgun.jpg

[Tashengurt]

Sorry folks....this sounds like six guys out being drunk and aggressive and caused an Affray which under US Law is a criminal offense.

It is in the UK too SASless. Well, an offenCe anyway (You say tomato...)

In common with about 80% of criminal cases only those that were there really know the truth but fwiw I can't see much mitigation in having been racially abused when six blokes have set about one in what appears to heve been a sustained attack. You can't defend yourself against ignorance with your fists.

The knife issue. Strange. Who carrys a knife when they could have a gun? Was it a case of instant arming? The knife picked up from a table in the bar?

What it probably also has in common with many, too many of the cases I deal with is A*sehole + alcohol = violent a*sehole. :ugh:

[SASless]

Hell Man.....sadly things have changed since I wore a Badge....perhaps for the good over all but definitely changed.

Alcohol, Testosterone, Females, 4AM, competition for the fair Damsel...real or imagined....strong personalities.....now what could go wrong in that scenario?

[Hell Man]

..perhaps for the good

Don't count on it. Not everything new is good.

[Tashengurt]

There's nothing new in Policing. Just old ideas re-invented.

[mad_jock]

I doud't very much it was 6 on 1 or it would be significantly more than a broken nose and sore jaw and a few stiches.

Anyway we shall see what they say when it all goes to court.

I see it as everyone was drunk and there was a fight over a girl. I wonder how many times that happened in the US on the same night and the UK for that matter.

Its probably just as well he didn't have a gun he would more than likely be dead just now unless he could take out all of them which would be doudtful if he was pissed enough to take on 6 Fijians. More likely they would all still be walking around and there would be a couple of bystanders shot. They weren't to bothered by getting sliced by a knife. But thankfully he didn't, so only a broken nose and sore face with some stiches to deal with.

If you watch a film "they used to be warriors" it will show you what the guy was dealing with.

Six big brutes,the six thugs

That about sums it up. One does wonder about the IQ of said cop. Personally I think he should be up for a Darwin Award.

[SASless]

MJ.....you sure about the knife? You sure about this Blood Trail? You believe anything written in the UK Papers? You don't know the facts just as I do not. Does anyone posting here know what really happened?

All this macho talk of thumping folks, six guys being able to take a gun away from a trained Police Officer (do remember ALL of our Cops carry guns on duty and know how to use them). Last time I checked most Cops carry Automatics that hold anywhere from 13-17 Rounds of Ammo and every by Jockanesie Math.....that leaves plenty of live rounds after he would run out of Fiji's.

But the gun thing is irrelevant to the conversation here as no gun was involved.

Are you quite comfy making all these statements about the incident that you do?

[mad_jock]

I am the one that's been saying that British squaddies can be aggressive arseholes when out on the piss.

And you picking and choosing what bits you like to believe. And it was the US papers I got that from. Which I am sure are as factual as our own :p. The cop has had his say in them but they haven't as yet. Which is why we should wait until the court case before saying that 6 guys beat up one cop. There will be fault both sides.

We all know that alcohol and weapons don't mix. And if the guy was drunk enough to pick a fight with.

National Anthems (& I Bole) - Gloucester vs Fiji [[2012 EOYT Match]] - YouTube

It would be doubtful if he would get enough space to be able to use it effectively in a bar brawl.

And yes I am comfy making statements about aggressive arseholes out on the piss.

I have seen dogs being put into the NAAFI to stop fights and then everyone including those not present turn out for a mud run/PT beasting the next morning at 5 am for 2 hours as punishment. Thankfully I wasn't inside when they went in, but I did do the early morning light exercise the next day.

And you can be assured once everything is sorted out and they wing there way home there Regimental Sergeant Major will have a punishment that will be far more effective than anything dealt out by the judge, which as far as I can tell will be a year in prison and a $1000 fine max. Which it will be more than likely the boys in the regiment will chip in for as it was beating up a yank cop that had pulled a knife on them.

They might have only been back a month from Afghanistan, they went out in October/November last year for 6 months. As such your not dealing with your normal blokes in a bar fight.

[500N]

"which as far as I can tell will be a year in prison and a $1000 fine max."

Do you think they will stay in jail in the US or shipped back to the UK ?

[mad_jock]

Don't have a clue, all the people I know that got up to such antics and got caught where given over by the local plod to our loving Artificer Sgt Major via the OC. But it was never in the US.

The naval types more than likely will have more clue what goes on in the US I can't imagine that the Royals haven't been involved in something similar on shore leave. But it never made the news papers.

[500N]

With Navy types, it's easy to get them "out of sight, out of mind"
by putting them in the brig on the ship, which of course sails
a day or two later !

On behavior OS, for those that don't know we now have 500+ US Marines
here in Darwin, Northern Aus, which will expand rapidly in the next few years.
It is interesting to note that from the outset, the command has said that
behavior outside of base was vital to it being successful to the extent that it was
hinted that those chosen to come were "selected".

[mad_jock]

New York's Finest Police Cover-Up - - News - New York - Village Voice (http://www.villagevoice.com/2010-10-13/news/nypd-cover-up-cabbie/full/)

It doesn't seem to be a one off rookie cops getting into fights thinking they will get away with it and also doing it.

I suspect if said soldiers walked back into the bar they would be drinking all night for free curtsy of the bar staff and locals.

[ORAC]

No mention of knives or blood trails folks....which nation's news outlets are lying? Perhaps our Media is more friendly towards the Military....of any country than are the UK Papers.

New York Post: Brit rugby rats charged in cop assault (http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/brit_rugby_rats_charged_in_cop_assault_Pej8FC1XMg8Bxy4k98B5z L)

........“At this point the victim pulled out a folding pocket knife” to ward off his attackers, she said. Two of the players — who were in the midst of an East Coast exhibition tour — sported bandages from their knife wounds as they stood before a judge last night..............

[SASless]

The Village Voice would indict a Cop that was shot by a Sniper from 500 yards while the Cop was eating Donuts and drinking Coffee.

[Hell Man]

The Village Voice would indict a Cop that was shot by a Sniper from 500 yards while the Cop was eating Donuts and drinking Coffee.

Hilarious. :ok:

[baffman]

...six British Army rugby players beating a New York cop to a pulp

The OP is clearly a stickler for accuracy.

it is important that we encourage servicemen and women to at least try and maintain some sort of dignity, even in their drunkenness!

Agreed.

Yes, bravado and willy-waving can take place (if they must) but the modern soldier should remember (as those before have done) that in such circumstances a degree of restraint is in fact the greater show of strength and decidedly more British.

So public misbehaviour did not occur amongst earlier generations of British servicemen?

Deplorable as misbehaviour always is, I suggest you will find it less amongst today's serving personnel than in earlier times. And the likelihood of being discharged, should such misbehaviour be proved, is considerably greater in what you term these politically correct times.

there are of course one or two good Padres in the Forces

Generous of you!

[mad_jock]

google NYPD beating and take your pick then.

[baffman]

google NYPD beating and take your pick then.

I don't see "beaten to a pulp".

[Davef68]

What? Respect for an off duty cop in a bar who has just called you a black bastard??
I don't think so!

I wasn't saying there would be respect, just that the cop might have expected it! I don't know a UK copper who would do the 'get back I'm a copper' routine.

[perthsaint]

It's utterly perverse that a knife-carrying racist can be treated as a victim.

[Churchills Ghost]

Baffman, in post #18 I have noted the comments made by parabellum and Archimedes in which my inaccurate description of "beaten to a pulp" is acknowledged, as I do so again here.

Irrespective of the incident I am simply emphasising the importance of our forces maintaining the generally accepted good conduct that we have been known for in the past century or so.

On a wider scale (and my original post tried to pick up on this) what I am saying is that much of what has traditionally held us together as a society within the British Isles is slipping away. Progress requires change that's for sure, but not all change is progress.

Some will get it - others won't.

[thing]

On a wider scale (and my original post tried to pick up on this) what I am saying is that much of what has traditionally held us together as a society within the British Isles is slipping away

As a student of sorts of English social history change has always occurred, all of the time; and the people living through those changes have always decried those changes. Read Sam Pepys' diaries, Dr Johnson or James Boswell, they were saying exactly the same as you.

[SASless]

PS....you certain that what is alleged is true?

You reckon the Fiji's are telling the whole complete unmitigated truth?

Willing to bet they being such stalwart up standing professionals, notwithstanding being in a Bar at 4AM in the morning while drinking, they might not have embellished their account just a wee bit to cover their tracks?

The Plod, having interviewed Witnesses, could have made correct decisions about what really happened and arrested the correct persons subsequent to that investigation?

Of course we have to assume the entire Police Department and even the Prosecutors Office are bigots, racists, and out to get these poor lads of color don't we?

Somehow I doubt that is the case.

[Churchills Ghost]

thing: Well then, as a student "of sorts", you might also have had a thought for the sentence which immediately follows the one you quoted!

[thing]

Only a student of sorts as you say, didn't quite understand your banter in your 'some will get it, some won't.' I take it then that I won't get whatever 'it' is...:)

[Churchills Ghost]

I take it then that I won't get whatever 'it' is..

Clearly! :sad:

"It" is the sentence which follows the one you quoted!

Bonne nuit (as we say in Britain, or is that شوبراتر). ;)

[thing]

Still not tuned in but never mind!:)

[Flying Vicar]

As for service chaplains I think you might get a surprise, the last two I had anything to do with were very much soldier's chaplains, one had done about six years in the SAS then left the Army, came back as a chaplain and specialised in airborne forces, the other, on appointment to the Parachute Brigade, went through 'P' Company and then jumped at every opportunity thereafter. There are/were plenty more like them in the forces.

This is encouraging.

Military padres have generally managed to remain relevant by providing support which is valued by the communities to which they are attached.

[mad_jock]

You reckon the Fiji's are telling the whole complete unmitigated truth?


Gawd no.

Bastard in my experience isn't a very often used insult by yanks.

I think the whole lot of them are lying through there teeth.

They are all equally guilty of being drunken aggressive idiots.

[goudie]

Army rugby team on tour in New York, the Fijian members are out on the toot on their own. Where were the rest of the team? Why didn't they all stick together?
Questions for the officers perhaps, responsible for their men, in a big city.

[TomJoad]

Given that a far greater level of violence is being visited upon those with an altogether stronger claim of innocence elsewhere in the world tonight, why are we so concerned about this story.

A racist cop - well yes you do get them, thankfully few and far between.

Some troops, bit of alcohol perhaps on receiving end of racist remark - it get's a reaction. Yes that happens as well.

The cop has let himself, his employer and his country down.

The soldiers have let themselves, their employer and their country down.

Due process will follow for both parties - let's move on.

[SASless]

Ah yes....the use of the British vernacular in Spam Land.....OOPS!

If he said he had been called something that started with the Letter N, followed by a compound word with the salient letters MF, or CS....I would give some serious credence to the accusation of racial epithets being used by the Cop.

But...."Black Bastard".....nope sorry O....does not ring right!

Nice try but no Cigar!

[OutlawPete]

No one can really comment on this without knowing the details and given the drunken nature of the whole affair that'll probably never be fully disclosed.

What worries me most is that allegedly, the cop was carrying a knife. NYPD are not without controversy though.


"Amadou Bailo Diallo (September 2, 1975 – February 4, 1999) was a 23-year-old immigrant from Guinea who was shot and killed in New York City on February 4, 1999 by four New York City Police Department plain-clothed officers: Sean Carroll, Richard Murphy, Edward McMellon and Kenneth Boss, who fired a combined total of 41 shots, 19 of which struck Diallo, outside his apartment at 1157 Wheeler Avenue in the Soundview section of The Bronx. The four were part of the now-defunct Street Crimes Unit. All four officers were acquitted at trial in Albany, New York.[1]Diallo was unarmed at the time of the shooting, and a firestorm of controversy erupted subsequent to the event as the circumstances of the shooting prompted outrage both within and outside New York City. Issues such as police brutality, racial profiling, and contagious shooting were central to the ensuing controversy."

[Shack37]

Willing to bet they being such stalwart up standing professionals,
notwithstanding being in a Bar at 4AM in the morning while drinking, they might not have embellished their account just a wee bit to cover their tracks?


SASless
Every word in your quote applies equally to the policeman.

[SASless]

You notice I did not specify any limitations on who was included....it was a generic description of a recipe for disaster where ever it is encountered and who ever is involved.

Be it Glasgow or Atlanta the mixture is the same in results.

[parabellum]

Not sure if it is the same now but when I was still in the biggest sanction you could apply to Fijians was to send them back to Fiji, discharged as "services no longer required". Fines and prison won't bother these guys, as soon as they are sober they will be model prisoners.

[SOSL]

SAS,

The police aren't always right and the black guys aren't always wrong.

Rgds SOS

[Shack37]

You notice I did not specify any limitations on who was included....it was a
generic description of a recipe for disaster where ever it is encountered and
who ever is involved.
Be it Glasgow or Atlanta the mixture is the same in results.


Nice comeback SASless but my re-reading of your post still leaves me with the impression you're referring to the soldiers.

[GreenKnight121]

What worries me most is that allegedly, the cop was carrying a knife. NYPD are not without controversy though.

It's utterly perverse that a knife-carrying racist can be treated as a victim.

“At this point the victim pulled out a folding pocket knife”

I understand that in the weapon-paranoid UK the thought of anyone carrying something like this (longest blade is 3") http://www.knife-depot.com/images/product/a3/6_247027.jpg

is automatic proof that the person carrying it is a homicidal maniac, but I've carried one just like that since I was about 10 years old (as have millions of Americans)... and have never once even threatened anyone with it (including all 8 years in the USMC), much less tried to cut someone.

However, I feel confident that, if I were being advanced on by 6 angry men who were threatening bodily harm, and I tried (foolishly) to scare them off with it, that Outlaw Pete and perthsaint would consider me a vicious criminal that deserved whatever happened to me.

[SASless]

Shack.....so you were and still are wrong....that happens when one "assumes".

[AR1]

UK vernacular in Spam Land? - I spent some time working in NY a couple of years back and frequented an Italian restaurant. The chap working the tables used to identify the 'checks' by a written description the diners. In our case it was 'Limey B@stards' I won't tell you what he wrote to describe the Indian table.

As for this instance, don't know, wasn't there!

[LT Selfridge]

An underpaid cop who has watched too many movies against Fijian mercenaries...?

"...the unspeakable in full pursuit of the uneatable.'

Sorry Oscar.

[perthsaint]

GK121,

You omitted to mention in your scenario whether or not you'd started the incident by racially abusing the men to make them angry.

Please clarify.

[GreenKnight121]

Doesn't matter... the entire premise you and certain others are operating under states that the mere presence of the knife by itself automatically makes the possessor in the wrong and justifies whatever anyone wants to do to him.

[500N]

Any update on this, the court case, what happened ?

[OutlawPete]

However, I feel confident that, if I were being advanced on by 6 angry men who were threatening bodily harm, and I tried (foolishly) to scare them off with it, that Outlaw Pete and perthsaint would consider me a vicious criminal that deserved whatever happened to me.

A bit of distortion of what I actually wrote there, Greenknight. I struggle to see where any situation is improved by carrying a weapon (unless you're at war!) even a 3 inch folding blade which, lets face it, will still kill/maim. It may carried for innocent reasons but if it's there for defence then arguably, the holder is still prepared to pull it on a person and use it, which is highly unlikely to have a good outcome.

For the record, I'm glad the UK is 'weapon paranoid' as you put it. Its far preferable that the other extreme where the right keep assault rifles in your kitchen cupboard is the norm.

[500N]

"I struggle to see where any situation is improved by carrying a weapon"

How about 6 blokes after you and you use it to defend yourself,
possibly taking out a few of them in the process to even up the
odds ?

[perthsaint]

GK121,

Your comment is amusing. Nonsense but amusing.

[OutlawPete]

"I struggle to see where any situation is improved by carrying a weapon"

How about 6 blokes after you and you use it to defend yourself,
possibly taking out a few of them in the process to even up the
odds ?

Thats fine till they overpower you, disarm you and use your own weapon against you.

[500N]

That is always the danger.

I was going to put another line in about not letting them
know you have it and using it as well as can be.

Hey, I'd prefer to go down fighting than on my knees praying !!!

[JSFfan]

It could have been worse, they may have been Samoan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naWQ6GWKLw8

[Fg Off Bloggs]

Another of CG's threads that has nothing to do with 'Military Aircrew or Aviation'!

Jet Blast?

Bloggs:{

[SASless]

One wee pocket knife isn't about to scare off Six Drunks intent upon mayhem. It would certainly put an easily observed identifying mark or two on a few of them.

They would look a bit odd in a Show Up Parade with part of a Nose or an Ear missing wouldn't they?

[mad_jock]

Not really if they had just played a match.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/1857104-3x2-340x227.jpg

http://foxtalk1.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/hickie-blood.jpeg

[Basil]

Apologies if it's been mentioned before and I'm sure that many of you are already aware of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mirbat) and this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talaiasi_Labalaba) example of Fijians in action.

[RAFEngO74to09]

Dependent on the MoU, if they are found guilty and subject to US penalties, they can expect harsher punishment in the US.

For instance, a typical punishment in the place where I live for a college kid Spring Breaker using profane language at a hotel employee is $500 and for under age 21 drinking is $1000 and a year on probation. Hence the local phrase "Arrive on vacation - leave on probation". "Littering on the Highway" is also $1000 - they only do it once.

[OutlawPete]

One wee pocket knife isn't about to scare off Six Drunks intent upon mayhem. It would certainly put an easily observed identifying mark or two on a few of them.

They would look a bit odd in a Show Up Parade with part of a Nose or an Ear missing wouldn't they?

Who says the six were drunk? Who says the cop wasnt? He pulled the knife didn't he? Oh but of course he's NYPD, therefore he must have been in the right....BS

[West Coast]

Run with that idea Pete.

[Shack37]

From SASless


One wee pocket knife isn't about to scare off Six Drunks intent upon mayhem.
It would certainly put an easily observed identifying mark or two on a few of
them.
They would look a bit odd in a Show Up Parade with part of a Nose
or an Ear missing wouldn't they?


Tell me again that I'm wrong. (My bold)

[perthsaint]

I'd like to see the evidence that they were drunk and intent upon mayhem as opposed to responding to racial abuse.

No doubt SASless's failure to date to post this evidence is due to a simple oversight rather than the evidence being non-existent.

[SASless]

4AM, Sports Bar, Wimmen, you reckon anyone (and that includes the Cop) was sober? No one was in the right in this.....how many times I have to tell you dunderheads that.

If you cannot grasp the interplay that being in a group of yer Mates, particularly when you are all in the Army....and play on the same Rugby Team, find yourself on a good run ashore....scored some Birds....after a long evening drinking....you just are not being serious when you think these guys were not aggressive. I would be shocked if they weren't.

Get real guys....your bunch should have downed their beer, grabbed the girls, and legged it to another Bar. That would have been the smart play.

Rule One of Bar Fighting is get your licks in quick and first....and run like Hell before the Cops get there.

They screwed up.

It appears the British Army is not standing by the Six....they remain in jail awaiting Trial. The British Army did not take custody of the Soldiers, did not post their Bail, and has not provided them Legal Counsel. The State of New York is providing them Legal Counsel through the Public Defenders Office at no cost to the Six.

I guess they pissed off their Commander when he had to cancel a Rugby Match with the NYPD that had been scheduled as part of their tour in the United States with other matches scheduled with some Marines out of Quantico and some Academy Midshipmen at the Naval Academy.

Court date now the 17th.

Perth....assuming you can understand what you do read....the account of the Cop's injuries and the description of the Assault should answer your question about the Mayhem.....I guess you are quite happy with Six guys beating up on one guy. Why I thought you would be all about that famous British sense of fair play we hear so much about.

Stay tuned P.....I will keep you posted on the outcome of the Case when it comes to Court.

Although I doubt the truth will satisfy you as it don't fit your opinion.


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/05/nyregion/british-soldiers-charged-in-assault-of-off-duty-police-officer.html?_r=0

[perthsaint]

So, no evidence then, merely assumptions and conjecture.

Feeble.

[500N]

" Rule One of Bar Fighting is get your licks in quick and first....and run like Hell before the Cops get there."

Or just avoid it altogether, especially of you are visiting from OS.

[perthsaint]

SASless,

My understanding of what I read is rather better than yours. You claimed the men were drunk and there was an intent to cause mayhem but have provided no evidence to support this. Please now provide specific evidence of the intent and the drunkeness.

I'm perfectly happy with six guys beating up a racist. Ten would have been better.

I'm intrigued that the racist stabber is now reported to be 33 rather than 21.

[Basil]

500N,
Or just avoid it altogether, especially of you are visiting from OS.
. . and that is the best advice. IT DOESN'T MAKE YOU A COWARD TO AVOID A FIGHT OVER NOTHING.
OTOH if it is important, that's another thing.

Edited to say that I have never been in a fight over anything important in my life - only idiot male egotism :O

[SASless]

perth....off to the Peanut Gallery with you....back bencher at that!

[perthsaint]

No evidence and now a hissy fit.

Utterly pathetic.

[OutlawPete]

Run with that idea Pete.

Its as good as any of the other tripe being proposed. Some of the bile I've read so far even suggests its ok to carry a knife on the streets to defend yourself because millions of Americans do it. Well whoopee dooo, does that make it right? Even if it is only a 3 inch folding blade?

And how do we know their commanders aren't supporting the six through this? It could easily be that the authorities are taking a tough stance and not letting anyone near them.

[barnstormer1968]

Coming from a green background I have often heard this phrase:
You CAN'T fight a Fijian so don't try!

None of us were there in the bar, but to sum up Brit soldiers from Fiji for those that don't know them, they are as brave and loyal as the suicidal Japanese in WW2 but MUCH bigger and stronger :)

One thing I have note is:
While all U.S. cops may carry side arms and do know how to use them, they are not all Olympic shooters and most couldn't hit a barn door. This applies to armed police all over the world. Police rarely discharge their weapons at live targets in anger, and don't shoot enough to become instinctive shooters IMHO.

[BEagle]

A fair and balanced article in the NYT, I thought.

[mad_jock]

Asked whether the men would be able to post bail, Capt. Matt Stevens, who is the soldiers’ commanding officer and was not present when the assault was said to have occurred, said, “Hopefully.”

Mean while the lads are thinking,

3 meals per day.
no hotel bills.
The Sgt Major can't get his hands on us.
Free gym.
The rest of the lads can't get there hands on us for screwing up the tour.
And this place is sweet compared to the guardroom in Dreghorn.

Pay the bail you must be joking.

[Basil]

mj,
. and add to that:
They are highly unlikely to get any hassle inside :)

[mad_jock]

Aye I should imagine along with their presence beating up a cop won't do them any harm.

And the screws won't touch them because it would be a diplomatic incident.

And thinking about it even if they do go through the system and get kicked out.

I won't be the end of the world for them. They will be straight into the CPO market or super tanker protection. They will be doubling if not trebling their salary's. And they would be out mid redundancy rounds and before this referendum nonsense, if it goes through.

If the army really wanted to punish them they should keep them in and send them to Norway during the winter for 6 months in the field. From my limited experience dealing with them they get pretty miserable when it snows.

[SASless]

Mad,

Which is it....are they Heroes or Bums?

They canna be both can they?

The got put in Nick, killed the Public Relations Rugby Tour, embarrassed the British Army and their Mates, are at risk of being chucked out of the Army.

These young Lads made a huge mistake....and shall pay a heavy price for it....perhaps too heavy.

As to their being immediately hired and payed lots of Dosh doing private work.....you sure that might happen?

As an employer for those kinds of positions....would I not be remiss if I did not do a Personnel Reliability Background Check before hiring someone?

When the background check shows up the arrests and convictions, the Dishonorable Discharge from the Army.....you reckon I would want to hire them over others that are as qualified or even more qualified but with an absolutely squeaky clean record and no record of problematic conduct?

All of us make life decisions that determine the path we take in life.....these six young men made the entirely wrong decision. There were any number of other options they could have....and should have taken...but did not do so.

Now...they have to pay a price for that.

Shame as I would suspect these guys would very much be the kind of Soldier one would like to serve in with in Combat.

If somehow the charges are dropped or some sort of deal is arranged where they escape punishment under the US Criminal System....they still risk a Civil Proceeding if the Cop decides to sue for damages caused by the attack. If the Cop is smart....which current evidence clearly shows he is not.....he would have already done that to ensure there is an Immigration Hold placed on the Soldiers.

[500N]

Those who serve in the UK.

If these guys get convicted and punished in the US, even if let off and told
to leave the country, I assume the British Army will then charge them
with various offences ?

[Broadsword***]

If these guys get convicted and punished in the US, even if let off and told to leave the country, I assume the British Army will then charge them
with various offences ?

If by 'charge' you mean prosecute them, then no. They may, however, face administrative action, which is entirely separate from the military criminal justice system. Administrative action may result in a range of outcomes from an informal interview or rebuke to, in the most serious cases, termination of service.

A change in the terms of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 means the Army can no longer take administrative action against soldiers who receive police cautions. If, therefore, the soldiers were to receive in the US something akin to a UK police caution (very unlikely, given the seriousness of the alleged offences), administrative action may not be an option.

[OutlawPete]

SASless, you make it sound like they committed mass murder. They slapped an alleged racist who had already stabbed two of them, hardly what I'd call crime of the century. If these guys had really beaten him up that bad, he'd have more than a bloody nose and split lip.

Beagle that article in the NYT does indeed seem like a well written account.

[perthsaint]

Still no evidence from SASless? Strange.

[SASless]

Do get your chronology correct would you.....as you like the NYT article....get it from there then check back with me. You might refresh what his injuries were and also tell us how you arrive at the idea the guy was a Racist. Care to cite the evidence anywhere that would support that?

Get over it....your guys are in Jail charged with various felonies to include Theft.

That is where you wind up when you commit an a assault.

[perthsaint]

The racist calls someone a "black b*****d" but isn't a racist?

What planet do you live on?

[BEagle]

Whether or not the NYPD victim used the alleged words "Black bastard", the alleged reaction from 6 Fijian rugby team members would seem rather disproportionate.

(I recall being at Wright-Patt base ops once. Glancing out of the window, the weather looked threatening, with serious nimbostratus rapidly approaching. "I don't like the look of that big black bastard!", I said, as lightning flickered from one particularly ugly looking cloud...

"Hey, what's that you said?", asked a chap from the far side of the room, who resembled a cliff of ebony tightly wrapped in a USAF flight suit. "Well, have a look, mate", I invited him. "Holy $hit, that's one mean black motherf***er - you're not wrong!", was his reply. So our 2 crews went for coffee and banter whilst the heavens opened.)

[OutlawPete]

I wouldnt say giving someone who had stabbed two people (allegedly) a bloody nose was disproportionate. More like evidence of controlled restraint and fortunate that the damage done wasn't worse.

[mad_jock]

you sure that might happen?

Hero's and bums. I just have the opinion that if you wind up the aggression and train the boys to hurt people and send them off to war for 6 months. Never mind the Fijians are naturally that way inclined anyway. Your going to get the occasional incident involving civi's. Realistically the only people that are going to suffer from this is the British army loosing 6 quality soldiers if they get discharged. Which I doubt will happen to be honest most likely broken down the ranks.

And if they do get discharged.

Almost definitely, there is a huge close protection officer market, also as well ex UK troops are the favoured option for doing security on oil tankers travelling around Africa mostly run by ex Royal marines who also like Fijians on there teams. Syria is ramping up now and Afghanistan is getting worse as the US pulls out. Last time I talked to some of them in Erbil the going rate was 60-90k pounds tax free in Iraq going up to 120k pounds in Afghanistan if your in one of the top teams, which I suspect these guys will be able to get into. If they have any EOD skills even more.

These guys have all be in Afgan bar one but his mates will look after him.

They will be getting paid to slot Somali pirates and look hard and produce the goods when the bullets start flying. All of which the Fijians can do without thinking. And they won't be bother not having a quick response team on call.

And even if they did a back ground check if your hiring do you really think smacking a cop is going to be on the don't employ this person to throw walls of lead at attacking pirates and engage them if they get on the boat. As for the discharge they won't care. Most of the team leaders are ex SF and will know the score. And will have smacked a few civi's before in their time. And you only get these jobs with a recommendation of someone already in and an afgan tour will tick so many box's. And having a Fijian on the team criminal record or not is a huge bonus when the poo hits the fan.

They will be more than likely working for American news teams as CPO's. They tend not to use yank CPO's as they aren't low key enough and tend to generate news instead of collecting it.

We had one of those round the training bases type things and one of the tasks was to sort a landy which the wheel has come off without a jack. Using bits of wood etc. Tami just straight arm leg squat lifted the front corner and locked his legs and one of us stuck the wheel back on. Its not only the power they have, its the stamina as well. They quite often get stuck into the heavy weapons platoons and carry stupid amounts of gear all day long fast without resorting to anabolic steroids like the whities do.

And as for suing them they won't have any cash by now and they won't have any assets apart from a flash car/bike which will be on credit and you can't take because the hire purchase firm own it, they will live in barracks in army accom. All there cash will be back in Fiji if they have any.

Your going to sue 6 blokes without a cent to their name not even enough to buy an air fare home. All its going to do is cost the US/UK tax payer. The cop won't get any cash out of them unless they do stay in the military and they take it from there wages. Which won't bother them to be honest as they are very much a what's in there hand is what they have type of people. If they never see it, they never had it so they won't worry about it.

Only thing it might stop them doing is being licensed bouncers in Edinburgh. But I haven't seen any Fijians on the doors in EDI so maybe its not something they are involved with.

So there is absolutely no question in my mind that these guys won't be regretting this for the rest of their lives. It will be a minor blip and something to be laughed about in the bar 6 months after it all gets sorted if not before. There local management in their regiment won't be bothered at all about it, they will just be glad to have them back because as a group they are excellent soldiers. They more than likely have to deal with similar situations monthly if not weekly.

your guys are in Jail charged with various felonies to include Theft.

That is where you wind up when you commit an a assault.

Which won't bother them at all for reasons I have stated above. If you really wanted them to get some pay back you would be wanting them to be released so the rest of the team can get there hands on them. I suspect they would be walking around with slightly more than a few stiches and a broken nose if they did get released. But they wouldn't be crying about it, as they would see the beating as justified. That tami I used to work with apparently had been beaten up by some para's in Aldershot to get his pizza off him. Next day after a 10km force march the medics discovered he had 3 broken ribs, a broken radi in his arm and three bones broken in his foot. The only reason why they pulled him was because he was limping. Didn't stop him finishing in the top 5 out of 40.

[Avionker]

Perthsaint, you really are a very excitable chap aren't you?

Now take a deep breath and think about this.

You are hounding SASless for evidence that he cannot possibly provide. He wasn't there BUT I think that most people are prepared to accept that alcohol played a key part in this incident, and that all 7 participants are unlikely to have been sober.

You said:-

My understanding of what I read is rather better than yours. You claimed the men were drunk and there was an intent to cause mayhem but have provided no evidence to support this. Please now provide specific evidence of the intent and the drunkeness.

I'm perfectly happy with six guys beating up a racist. Ten would have been better.

I'm intrigued that the racist stabber is now reported to be 33 rather than 21.

I agree with you that SASless's claim that they were intent on causing mayhem appears to be without foundation, however you are also making some pretty wild statements.

Now please provide your evidence that the cop racially abused anyone.

You can't provide evidence? Oh that's right, YOU weren't there either were you? Your repeated use of the word 'racist' is based purely on the assumption that the troops are telling the truth and the cop is lying. Evidence please.

And you're perfectly happy with 6 guys beating up one, and in fact 10 would be better you say. Why?

I believe, as you obviously also do, that racism has no place in a civilised society. However how on earth is beating the crap out of someone going to stamp it out? Do you really think that if someone is overtly racist that a bit of a slapping is going to turn them into fervent proponent of equality and civil rights?

All it's going to do is reinforce their ideas, and whilst they might think twice about opening their mouth again, it will not change their beliefs. They will still be racist, they will just be more circumspect about it.

Now do everyone a favour. Read the NY Times article that SASless provided a link to post #87 and take a chill pill.

Regardless of whatever provocation that they may, or may not, have been subjected to these 6 guys appear to have gone "over the top". They'll have their day in court, they will have a chance to defend their actions.

It is more than likely that there was fault on both sides. Can you now please stop trying to convince everyone that the troops are innocent victims of some KKK card carrying, neo-nazi thug and put the race card away.

[Courtney Mil]

Avionker,

Thank you for your balanced view. The NYT article pretty much says it all, as you point out, and you are absolutely correct in your statement about beating up anyone for their views - far from changing the man's mindset, these guys have simply given him reason to think badly of Fijians. We don't even know if he was racist, but if he wasn't, he may be now!

In any event, six soldiers do not have the right to inflict violence on one just because they don't like his views. As BEgs remarked, rather disproportionate.

SASless is quite right, given that none of us were there, they will have their day in court an then perthsaint can stop worrying about the speculation.

BTW, I think it's more a case of perthsaint having the hissy fit, not SASless. Just my opinion.

[barnstormer1968]

The idea of the cop becoming racist or more racist is interesting.

Which race are we thinking of......British (often thought of as English in the USA), Scottish or Fijian. Perhaps he may just dislike Brit soldiers.

Neither here nor there, but just something to think about rather than just a white or black issue.

[Basil]

Avionker, Deffo one of the top, balanced postings :ok:

[Basil]

BTW, surprised that parabellum hasn't noted that the little action, IF correctly reported, forms a graphic example of his, and their, regimental motto.

[OutlawPete]

In any event, six soldiers do not have the right to inflict violence on one just because they don't like his views. As BEgs remarked, rather disproportionate.

According to the article in the NYT (which is basically all that any commentators here have to go on) there's a bit more to it than just disliking his (allegedly racist) views Courntney.
The off duty cop allegedly stabbed two of them first, which in my opinion, puts an entirely different complexion on a open and closed case of assault.

[Torque Tonight]

What on earth is one of New York's finest doing carrying a knife in a bar on a night out, and using it to stab people. Why hasn't he been arrested? In a case of a violent dispute between an off-duty cop and dark skinned foreigners is the default position that the cop must be in the right?

[glad rag]

Only if said dark skinned people are "jocks" it would seem....

[sitigeltfel]

I had a peek over at ARRSE to see what the Brown Jobs had to say about this, and could find nothing :confused:

Have the Mods there slapped a ban on comment, or is there a thread lurking that I cannot see?

[Broadsword***]

What on earth is one of New York's finest doing carrying a knife in a bar on a night out, and using it to stab people. Why hasn't he been arrested? In a case of a violent dispute between an off-duty cop and dark skinned foreigners is the default position that the cop must be in the right?

We do not know what type of knife it was and, in NYC, carrying a concealed knife (provided it meets certain criteria) is not necessarily unlawful.

In NYC, as in the UK, carrying a knife, of any type, for 'self defence' is unlawful. If, however, you are carrying a 'legal' knife for some other purpose (e.g. a Swiss Army knife, which comes in handy for all sorts of mundane routine tasks) and you happen to get attacked and use the knife in self defence, then that would probably be lawful. As a cop, presumably, he would have been careful to ensure the knife in question and the reason for his carrying it in a public place, were lawful. We'll see.

[Courtney Mil]

Indeed, Pete. Every interpretation of the sequence of events - we may have to wait until 17th to find out just what that was - puts a very different spin on it. I thought it more likely that the cop may have used the knife to defend himself rather than deliberately trying to take on 6 big blokes on his own. We'll have to wait and see about that one.

As for beating someone up for a bit of name calling, I'd like to hear more about the details of that too. I called someone a name once when I was at school, I hope perthsaint doesn't come after me with nine of his friends for that. :eek:

[Union Jack]

I had a peek over at ARRSE to see what the Brown Jobs had to say about this, and could find nothing

A mere 154 posts at the time of posting

Have the Mods there slapped a ban on comment, or is there a thread lurking that I cannot see?

Apparently not/Apparently, if
Six Squaddies beat up NYPD Cop (http://www.arrse.co.uk/naafi-bar/203436-six-squaddies-beat-up-nypd-cop.html) is anything to go by

Jack

[SASless]

The off duty cop allegedly stabbed two of them first, which in my opinion, puts an entirely different complexion on a open and closed case of assault.

Where did you read anywhere.....that the Cop stabbed any of the Six "first"....rather than after the Six physically attacked him?

Do be specific with your information will you.



As to the carrying of a knife....read back in the thread and you will see a photo posted and a comment about how common it is for such a DEADLY WEAPON to be carried by the average American Male.


What really stands about ARSSE is the Brown Jobs seem to have a real sense of humor.....something the Light Blue Set here seem to lack.

[Basil]

What really stands about ARSSE is the Brown Jobs seem to have a real sense of humor
Checkout Post 154 (http://www.arrse.co.uk/naafi-bar/203436-six-squaddies-beat-up-nypd-cop-16.html).
If I ever want to be banned, I'll post it here :E

[OutlawPete]

Do be specific with your information will you.

What really stands about ARSSE is the Brown Jobs seem to have a real sense of humor.....something the Light Blue Set here seem to lack.

A case of pot calling kettle black there sasless..

[SASless]

Wot....no quote of a chronology that shows the stabbings took place first?

I thought you were prepared to prove that somehow.....what happened....can't find it in the NYT article you like so much?

[OutlawPete]

At no stage did I claim to be able to prove that. If he was getting set on by six big guys would have had time to remove a folding knife from his pocket, set the blade then stab two of them? Highly unlikely.

[SASless]

Your post # 115



The off duty cop allegedly stabbed two of them first, which in my opinion, puts an entirely different complexion on a open and closed case of assault.


I asked you to prove your contention the Officer stabbed the guys before the attack began.

Nothing complicated about that is there?

Bottom line is too many are making statements without having the facts of what actually happened.

Too much of what has been said in support of the Six cannot be justified by the information that is known to be true from the various news articles.

If you are going to stand by your comment the Cop stabbed two of the Soldiers and the Soldiers then defended themselves.....be able to substantiate that position with some sort of attributable statement from a credible source. That is all I am asking of you.

[OutlawPete]

SASless I have no proof that you are asking for, only the news channels that you'll have the same access to. Agreed, my post may carry an assumption that is perhaps biased towards the six but something isn't sitting well with me about all of this.

For one, and this is a generalisation, rugby players tend to leave the rough stuff on the field. They are normally ambassadors for their sport and the service they represent.

Secondly, if six of them had beaten this officer up, how did he manage to produce the knife and do it after the event. I just can't see that happening.

In any event, no one will come out of it looking good, whatever the outcome.

[Toadstool]

Just got back from the pub Glad??;)

[glad rag]

I wish [at their prices.] but thanks for the rope anyway. ;)

[SASless]

OP....one thing we both agree on is that nothing good shall come of all this.

I have not seen any report of their being an Internal Affairs/Professional Standards Investigation of the Officer's involvement but I would very surprised if there is not.

If the investigating officers assigned to the incident uncover sufficient independent information from Witnesses to fully satisfy themselves what actually happened and that clears the Officer of any misconduct, there might not be. If there is not, or if anything shows the Officer acted in a manner that violates the Law or Department Policy then there will be a formal investigation by a separate branch of the NYPD.

You can count on the Officer's conduct being very closely scrutinized.

His employment is at risk over this as is criminal charges should it be found he violated the law.

I have sent an email to the Reporter at the NYT who wrote the article seeking any other information he might have....and asked him some questions that would be good to have answered. No Reply from him yet.

[lj101]

NYPD beatings reveal a trend of 'justice' - hopefully the incident will have been caught on tape and the true course of events revealed.

Is the NYPD Beating up Kids Now? - Downtrend.com (http://downtrend.com/james/is-the-nypd-beating-up-kids-now/)

New York Pols Wonder How Many NYPD Beatings Aren't Caught on Tape (http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2012/10/new_york_pols_w.php)

NYPD Beatings: Caught on Tape - WFXG FOX54 Augusta - Your News One Hour Earlier (http://www.wfxg.com/story/11912299/nypd-beatings-caught-on-tape)

NYPD Turns Ugly Again! - Police Beatings and Arrest Peaceful Protester - 12160 (http://12160.info/video/nypd-turns-ugly-again-police-beatings-and-arrest-peaceful-protest)

Court hears former NYPD officer?s suit 22 years after bar beating left him brain-damaged - NY Daily News (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/court-hears-ex-officer-suit-22-years-bar-beating-article-1.1399554)

Video Captures NYPD Officers Viciously Beating Man Inside Jewish Center | Video | TheBlaze.com (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/10/15/video-captures-nypd-officers-viciously-beating-man-inside-jewish-center/)

[Avionker]

lj101

I'm sure that if you do a search for alleged incidents of assault or abuse of powers involving british police you can turn up a similar number of results.

I wonder how many people posting on here would have a different attitude if a Met bobby had been beaten up 6 visiting US Marines, or US Army troops, in London?

glad rag

Very pleased to see that you removed your post, assuming you did it yourself. If not well done to the mods.

[lj101]

Avionker

I did google "British Police beatings", but it didn't produce much. As I said, hopefully the CCTV will reveal what actually happened.

[SASless]

A,

Probably would not happen....as One US Marine would be sufficient.;)

Can you imagine the Marine Corps reaction to such misconduct by a group of their Marines that were on a Goodwill PR Tour....knowing how the Marines are about bringing dishonor or disrespect to the Corps?

I can assure you the culprits would far rather deal with Civilian Authorities than they ever would with USMC authorities.

[gijoe]

I guess that USMC are so restrained at home that they save the bad behaviour for Ops:

US marines charged over urinating on bodies of dead Taliban in Afghanistan | World news | theguardian.com (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/sep/24/us-marines-charged-dead-taliban)

Oh well, bad apples etc

This thread is nearly as funny as when I was sat with a Gp Capt lady in Episkopi listening to her say that it was unacceptable for the infantry to fight during off hours...'Simply unacceptable and not proper behaviour. More tea?'.

I didn't bother trying to educate her about the differences between her life and the lad that joins up to escape, is trained to fix bayonets, but can't write his own name let alone operate a computer - she obviously knew best and was not listening. Nice lady though.

G

[500N]

" I can assure you the culprits would far rather deal with Civilian Authorities than they ever would with USMC authorities."


That's the way it was put to the "visiting" Marines over here.
Apart from being shipped back to Japan quick smart,
the USMC would come down on them like a ton of bricks.

Not many (if any) incidents since they arrived.

[SASless]

Gijoe,

You are aware the USMC had to drop Charges against the Officer in charge of those very Marines upon the Defense obtaining a Sworn Statement from a General Officer which told of the Commandant of the USMC instructing the General who was the Convening Authority that he wanted those involved "Crushed" by Courts Martials.

In our system....that is known as "Undue Command Influence" which in the Marine Corps is generally done not by a little finger pulling on one side of that balance scale of Justice....and not by standing upon it with a great big Boot.

Due to that illegal command influence....there is a new Convening Officer and now the tribunal is purely administrative and not a Legal Proceeding.

The Officer will more than likely be discharged under Dishonorable Conditions for his failure to prevent his Marines from photographing that misconduct by his Marines.

[gijoe]

So the officer will be discharged for failing to prevent the action of photographing??

Not for not stopping the action of 'lagging on dead Afghans'??

Not for not preventing the action of 'lagging on dead Afghans'??

Now I am more confused than ever - some would say that is not hard - but this is a thread that has had people screaming 'should have known better those British Fijians - more tea?'

Anyway, when will the first Tomahawk go in?????

G

[mad_jock]

I didn't bother trying to educate her about the differences between her life and the lad that joins up to escape, is trained to fix bayonets, but can't write his own name let alone operate a computer - she obviously knew best and was not listening. Nice lady though.

That's the fundamental issue here.

Probably would not happen....as One US Marine would be sufficient

As lovely as your pride is in the Marine corp when it comes to hand fighting they are just the same as our boys. You will get some that come from the school of everyday was a fight and survival of the fittest and they escaped to the Marines and those that joined for other reasons. Its the same with the police in the UK. You get some that will follow there training and there is others that are instinctive fighters. Instinctive fighters who go max aggression will always win. I am sure we have all seen david V goliath scraps where the short arse beats the pulp out of the great hulk that looks to be able to squash them with one fist.

Altercations between the two countries troops have been going on for years. And I will freely admit that one side is not on the winning side all the time. Just depends on who is present.

I am quite sure there are areas of the US like there are in the UK where the locals will be quite happy to go one to one with a soldier and quite often give them there backsides in a sling.

You are correct though if these lads had really wanted to hurt said police officer we would be discussing 6 British soldiers murdered a NYPD cop. 6 against 1 I am sure 6 teenagers from the Bronx could have caused a lot more damage. There intent was obviously not to maim or permanently injure said person but merely to give him a slap. I am quite sure if he hadn't been in the NYPD we wouldn't be hearing about the incident at all. In fact they would more than likely have played the match and had drinks bought for them and everyone would have been laughing about it.

[gijoe]

'That's the fundamental issue here.'

...absolutely agree...but there are still some that think that ginger young 'uns from Paisley should be able to switch between 'kill' and 'etiquette' with ease...it ain't that simple.

Brit HMF Plc has done pretty well over the years in having to be ready to move between warfighting and peacekeeping - remember that Coco the Clown pendulum diagram hauled out by the Prince of Darkness?

There is a reason why they are not flying FJ or C130s (or even Chicken Legs) - they are good at engaging the enemy...and playing rugby. Very good at that.

G:ok:

[BEagle]

..there are still some that think that ginger* young 'uns from Paisley should be able to switch between 'kill' and 'etiquette' with ease...it ain't that simple.

Should that be true, which frankly I doubt, then the 'ginger young 'uns from Paisley' wouldn't be allowed out in public off the lead.

*I presume you are referring to hair colour, rather than using the vernacular of Cockney rhyming slang?

[gijoe]

Beags,

Definitely hair colour - not Beers!!

Were you ever in Dhekelia long term?

Were you ever in Fally long term?

Were you ever in Holywood long term? (Yes - one x L)

Were you ever in Shorncliffe long term? (Before Her Idiotness Joanna fronted an invasion)

I would guess the answer to all of the above is no. Not much call for an AAR instructor at 18 Flt etc

Some young 'uns cannot be let off of the lead for more 1 min 30s before they are in trouble. By all accounts, back to thread, Fijians can be quite good.

G

[SASless]

MJ and GiJoe....you guys must get a sense of humor......relax will you?

MJ....there was a cute wee Orange thing at the end of the sentence wasn't there.....you cannot be that slow as to not grasped what that meant can you?

GiJoe....that was tongue in cheek but if you think about it for a moment it is true....no photographs and none of this would have come to be public knowledge and thus no adverse publicity for the Marine Corps......and thus it could have been dealt with far less concern to public appearances.

You too need to fully digest what is being said.

Subtlety must not be something you deal with very often.

[gijoe]

'You too need to fully digest what is being said.'

Thanks for the advice...I think :D

There is nothing subtle about lagging on a dead Afghan - TB or not TB - that is the question? Guess you haven't been there.

... But I'll work harder on my soft skills, and all of my other things.

'Should have worked harder at school' all of the light blue said...many boring times...trotted out like a rehearsed line issued at IOT.

I stopped after the postgrad bit - couldn't get any more letters after my name on my card. Anyway...

____________________________

G:ok:

[Basil]

Before Her Idiotness Joanna fronted an invasion
Oh, dear; you'll upset a lot of people - but not me :ok:

[Churchills Ghost]

Ah well, you can't rely on our boys to behave all the time! Or can you?

More Army boys behaving badly (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2416134/Teenage-Army-recruit-bound-stripped-bullied-comrades-desperate-quit.html)

[glojo]

Wheww,
I have finally read through this thread and it looks like I am the only person that is in step.

My thoughts are that our service personnel are at all times representing Queen and country, especially when abroad.

We are never going to know the truth and frankly I don't much care as to me this all started out as talk... Hot air and no doubt alcohol fuelled talk.

To me there is no excuse for this violence and if folks don't like being called names then lock yourselves up in the kitchen. Those soldiers were showing the flag and they let themselves down, they let their regiment down and they behaved like thugs. When abroad we should be on our best behaviour and at all times remember who we are and what we are representing!!

Some folks are saying no further disciplinary action can be taken against these squaddies when they return to the UK??

Has military law changed that much? In the Navy we had that catch all charge of conduct prejudicial to good order and Naval discipline and as far as I am aware that just about encompassed anything and everything.

I had occassion to visit South Africa during the apartheid period and out of a ships company of 500, we had just one coloured sailor. This person had to use a separate gangway to go ashore and could not mix or socialise with his messmates whilst ashore.. His choice to go ashore but once in that country, he had to abide by the civilian law and no crying to the British Embassy if he broke any South African laws, he went ashore and wore his sailor's uniform with pride.

Should those soldiers be tried in America??

America appears to treat the courts of other countries with utter contempt when it comes to any offenders being charged with serious criminal acts, or serious motoring offences. They will usually ship offender back home to be tried??? My thoughts are what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

[gijoe]

'Oh, dear; you'll upset a lot of people - but not me'

Glad you got it - it was probably too subtle for others...myself included as I need to work harder on it...been told so by some bloke in the US.

Anyway, I'm off to read about more digusting Brit soldier behaviour in Germany in the Wail.

G:ok:

[West Coast]

Glojo

Can you provide some examples specific to your last paragraph?

[glojo]

Glojo

Can you provide some examples specific to your last paragraph?
Hi West Coast,
Not a problem and the one that really sticks in our mind was the case of a US airman that killed a young child in Cornwall. At the time of the offence he was drunk and driving a motor vehicle.

This man was flown home to the USA and never stood trial in a British court!! This happened many moons ago when there were members of the US armed forces stationed at RAF St Mawgan.

Apologises if my comment has caused offence but at the time this was a very emotive issue and I guess it still something that causes a deal of annoyance.

Best wishes
John

[Courtney Mil]

I think that the accused should always stand trial in the country where the alleged crime was committed. If you break a country's laws you should face that country's justice system.

[Just This Once...]

It's a difficult one Courtney. I for one would not wish to see any UK personnel tried in a brace of different countries. For those serving it would be even more perplexing if the crime had anything to do with their service. I don't think being tried in an Afghan court would be fun.

I have always found it perplexing that a UK service spouse living in Germany can (and have) been tried by courts martial. But I sense a balance has had to be stuck along the line and I guess this is why we have MoUs for this kind of thing.

[gijoe]

My experience is that America treats EVERYTHING outside of America with contempt...not just the courts.

Or maybe I am being paranoid?

Must go...NSA might be sniffing this.

I'm gone.

G:ok:

[OutlawPete]

Agree with Courtney on that. Whatever the law of the land where the crime is committed should stand. That should apply in equal measure to all, but how often do we see this type of thing end up in a game of you play ball with us and we'll ram the bat up your A**.

[West Coast]

Glojo

Was this case covered by an existing status of forces (or whatever the current term is) agreement or was the service member spirited out of the country before the local justice system could address the situation? A SOFA requires agreement of the host country to allow removal of the service member, it's not a one way street.

Having come from the US Marines, and one of our main overseas is in Japan, I've read of plenty of instances where US service members are rotting in their prisons, rightfully so. Certain acts were covered by SOFA, others required adjudication in local courts.

Courtney
Complete agreement as long as the infraction wasn't a part of the mission. Hate to have to stand trial in a kangaroo court for some trumped up charge.

[GreenKnight121]

I think that the accused should always stand trial in the country where the alleged crime was committed. If you break a country's laws you should face that country's justice system.
Agree with Courtney on that. Whatever the law of the land where the crime is committed should stand. That should apply in equal measure to all, but how often do we see this type of thing end up in a game of you play ball with us and we'll ram the bat up your A**.

So you two are perfectly fine with a British servicewoman who drives a UK military vehicle in Saudi Arabia being arrested, tired, and imprisoned for violating the Saudi law banning women from driving?

And if she decides to have a little affair with anyone she isn't married to while in Saudi, you two are fine with her being arrested, tried, and executed for adultery?

Really?

[OutlawPete]

So you two are perfectly fine with a British servicewoman who drives a UK military vehicle in Saudi Arabia being arrested, tired, and imprisoned for violating the Saudi law banning women from driving?

And if she decides to have a little affair with anyone she isn't married to while in Saudi, you two are fine with her being arrested, tried, and executed for adultery?

Really?

GK, how absurd, I ought to be flippant in my retort to the level of sarcasm that you choose to adopt but I'll rise above that.

Personally, I would never put anyone in that position in the first place. Much as in the same way that when detached to the US we were cautious about taking under 21 in case they innocently fell foul of the draconian drinking laws that said you have to be over 21 to consume beer.

Do you think it's acceptable to ride roughshod over the laws of a country you happen to be a guest in just because they don't meet with the approval of your own administration?

[The Helpful Stacker]

I can't remember for sure but didn't the standing orders for those deployed to Saudi specifically mention that women were not allowed to drive off-base, neither military vehicles nor 'white fleet'?

[lj101]

I can't remember for sure but didn't the standing orders for those deployed to Saudi specifically mention that women were not allowed to drive off-base, neither military vehicles nor 'white fleet'?

Yep - and issued with an abaya if going "down town".

[glojo]

Glojo

Was this case covered by an existing status of forces (or whatever the current term is) agreement or was the service member spirited out of the country before the local justice system could address the situation? A SOFA requires agreement of the host country to allow removal of the service member, it's not a one way street.
Many apologies West Coast but I cannot answer that question. This person drove a car on a public road in the United Kingdom. He was over the legal limit regarding blood alcohol content, he was driving on the wrong side of the road and killed a child. He was arrested, charged with causing death by dangerous driving and then bailed...

That is all the detail I have, this person was then flown home and has never been tried in a UK court for that offence. Hopefully you will understand my feelings of frustration over this issue.


So you two are perfectly fine with a British servicewoman who drives a UK military vehicle in Saudi Arabia being arrested, tired, and imprisoned for violating the Saudi law banning women from driving?

And if she decides to have a little affair with anyone she isn't married to while in Saudi, you two are fine with her being arrested, tried, and executed for adultery?

Really?
What makes the British servicewoman so special? If she were an air hostess working for British Airways, would we fly her home?

When serving abroad we must surely both respect and obey the laws of the land?

[The Helpful Stacker]

Yep - and issued with an abaya if they were going "down town".

I thought so. In which case this,

So you two are perfectly fine with a British servicewoman who drives a UK military vehicle in Saudi Arabia being arrested, tired, and imprisoned for violating the Saudi law banning women from driving?

is pretty much moot then?

I seem to remember that in order to leave Al Kharj (for instance) that we had to pass through at least three checkpoints. I'm sure one of those at least would be able to spot a woman driving a military vehicle!

[OutlawPete]

THS and lj101,
I was certain we had systems like you describe in place for such situations, it's been a couple of years since my last visit to that region.

Glojo, re the last comment of your post #161 - precisely my own thoughts. We can hardly ask those who visit the United Kingdom to abide by our laws if we refuse to do the same in theirs.

[Broadsword***]

Yep - and issued with an abaya if going "down town".


Didn't some Gp Capt get his legs whacked by the religious police for venturing out in shorts?

[Courtney Mil]

I doubt it. There is no such strict dress code for men in such places.

[BEagle]

Yep - and issued with an abaya if going "down town".

Most of the ladies at KKIA were happy with that in GW1 - at least it meant that they weren't subjected to stares or worse from the locals....

There was a story doing the rounds in 1990 before GW1 kicked off in earnest. Allegedly some US forces female was forced to a halt by the 'religious police'. She was wearing trousers and driving a 6x6. But as the pair of Saudis walked towards her vehicle, she loosed off a burst from an M-16 over their heads. At which, doubtless after a few 'allahu akbars', they wisely turned tail and bravely ran away.

Nothing ever said - because what Saudi 'religous policeman' would report having been seen off by a white woman driver, wearing trousers, who'd opened fire on them.

If it was true, then well done that girl!

Mind you, there are some who I'm not sure were ever safe at the wheel in Incirlik....;)

[Courtney Mil]

Further to my opinion regarding justice in the country where the crime is committed, here are two further thoughts.

First, it is grounds for extradition, widely accepted, but often hotly contested.

Second, how could any country accept the repatriation of the accused to a country where the alleged crime isn't a crime. Let me offer a slightly hypothetical example. Mr X has sex with a girl that is under-age in her country. Return Mr X to his home country for trial and we find that he has committed no crime. Could he be tried in his own country for something that his legal system doesn't prohibit?

OK, yes, it sounds a bit unjust that a British girl in Saudi could be prosecuted for adultery under circumstances where the law does not apply in the UK, but why should visitors to any country be allowed to claim immunity to another country's law? When ladies are caught trying to smuggle cocaine in South America, they know the risk, the Embassy has no power to spring them from jail.

[Broadsword***]

Some folks are saying no further disciplinary action can be taken against these squaddies when they return to the UK??

Has military law changed that much? In the Navy we had that catch all charge of conduct prejudicial to good order and Naval discipline and as far as I am aware that just about encompassed anything and everything.

'Conduct prejudicial to good order and service discipline' is still a service offence, but it would not be appropriate to charge and prosecute the soldiers under that (or any other) service offence, on the same facts for which they were tried in the US.

If found guilty by the US court, they could be subject to service administrative action, which is a service disciplinary procedure separate from the service criminal justice system. Administrative action can range from an interview with the boss to discharge from the service.

[Courtney Mil]

Quite right, Broadsword.

[lj101]

Mind you, there are some who I'm not sure were ever safe at the wheel in Incirlik....

How rude. You write one hire car off.....:{

[mad_jock]

I doubt it. There is no such strict dress code for men in such places

Dammam which is meant to be a little less excitable that the rest you will get into issues wearing sports shorts instead of just below the knee jobs in town.

Your knee caps have to be covered while standing up straight.

[BEagle]

I wonder what would happen if a Scot were to appear in public in Saudi Arabia in full shortbread-tin kit, complete with kilt.....:ooh:

[BEagle]

How rude. You write one hire car off.....:{

Detachment Rule 1 was 'Never let the navigator drive' - some of the (male) AARCs proved the wisdom of this; Tim T**b**s could always be relied upon to scare passengers witless in Palermo, but I don't think he actually hit anything. Another was so scary that even the Italians gave way when they saw him coming.

Mind you, a brand new Fiat Croma was well and truly 'Buffed' in Palermo by one crew - a rear tyre was faulty and they spun into a skip, coming off second best. A few bruises, but the Ops Sgt travelling with them suffered a broken tooth...

The squadron record for hire car-to-police incident was a JEngO in San Diego. Less than 30 sec after driving off in his hire car he was pulled over for a traffic violation!

[OutlawPete]

I wonder what would happen if a Scot were to appear in public in Saudi Arabia in full shortbread-tin kit, complete with kilt.....:ooh:

They'd probably chop something off.... :mad:

[Basil]

Having drifted towards dress and behaviour in the more outwardly observant Islamic countries, I'd say that we should comply with the norms which they expect from non-Muslim visitors.
For instance, even in relatively liberal Bahrain it is not a good idea for anyone, esp females, to walk out wearing a sleeveless top; even a little T-shirt type sleeve makes all the difference. Smoking in public during Ramadan, even in your car, can get you stopped. I've known the Hash House Harriers to attract disapproval, sometimes physical, when running through isolated villages.
We should remember that misbehaviour by foreigners is used by the enemies of a friendly regime to beat the onside Sheikh or Emir.

Yes, I know that, following the construction of the causeway, Thursday night signalled the arrival of a shedload of Saudis intent upon, ahem, partying in Manama. Just a matter of knowing the rules and being discreet; e.g. humping yer bird on a public beach is probably a good example of indiscreet behaviour :E

[Courtney Mil]

humping yer bird on a public beach is probably a good example of indiscreet behaviour

How unreasonable!

[vascodegama]

Since there is no statute of limitations in this country, why do the authorities not request the extradition of said US serviceman even after all this time.After all we have a bilateral treaty with the USA to cover these very eventualities.

[Fonsini]

While they may have some justification in beating the guy, when you are on overseas detachment you have to be the better guy and avoid conflict.

They didn't and will answer for the consequences.

[NutLoose]

Quote:
humping yer bird on a public beach is probably a good example of indiscreet behaviour
How unreasonable!

Depends on how hard she was hit with the Ugly Stick..



The one I thought was wrong in the 70's and 80's was a servicemen arrested in RAFG drink driving may have a disqualification on his BFG licence, and I knew an Armourer done twice, but as far as the UK when tour Ex he was squeaky clean as it neither showed on his UK licence or his insurance.

[teeteringhead]

The one I thought was wrong in the 70's and 80's was a servicemen arrested in RAFG drink driving may have a disqualification on his BFG licence, and I knew an Armourer done twice, but as far as the UK when tour Ex he was squeaky clean as it neither showed on his UK licence or his insurance. Even odder - but perhaps unsurprising, is that the BFG licence removal only applied in Germany. Had a mate who lost his BFG, and so when holidaying, Mrs Mate would drive to German border with France/Switzerland/Austria whreever when Mate would resume the wheel.

Not sure how much the insureres knew (or cared!) ;)

[Shack37]

Today's the date set for the soldiers to appear in court.

Probably a bit early yet US time but can we expect some update later?

[Toadstool]

A guilty plea.

British soldiers plead guilty over fight with US police officer | UK news | theguardian.com (http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/02/four-british-soldiers-guilty-fight-us-police-officer)

[GreenKnight121]

Hmmm... perhaps the issue was not as some here portrayed it?

[SASless]

Simple thing called Plea Bargaining.....let's the Court handle the matter easily without any lengthy Trial. It benefits everyone....Victim, Perps, Lawyers, Prosecutors, and Court....as well as the British Army.

Nothing sinister.....happens as a daily course of business in the Court System.

ey103.co.uk/news/uk-and-world/20131102-british-soldiers-admit-new-york-policeman-fight/

[mad_jock]

It would be interesting to find out what the RSM has got planned for them when they get back.

500 quid and a couple of days brushing the streets seem to me a bit of get them the hell out of here.

[Churchills Ghost]

A Royal Marine who murdered a badly wounded Taliban insurgent must serve at least 10 years in prison for a cold blooded killing which tarnished the reputation of the Armed Forces, a judge has said.

Sgt Alexander Blackman was dismissed in disgrace and told his crime had betrayed the Marines and increased the risk of revenge attacks on British troops.

The 39-year-old experienced soldier who has deployed on six operations stared ahead impassively as he was told he had undermined the work done by British forces in Afghanistan.

Blackman was given a life sentence for the battlefield execution of a badly wounded Taliban fighter during a patrol in Helmand province in September 2011.

Killer Marine told he 'increased risk of revenge attacks' and sentenced to minimum 10 years - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/10500133/Killer-Marine-told-he-increased-risk-of-revenge-attacks-and-sentenced-to-minimum-10-years.html)

[26er]

Surely "the increased risk of revenge attacks" was caused by whoever publicised the whole sorry affair in the first place.

[Shack37]

"Surely "the increased risk of revenge attacks" was caused by whoever publicised the whole sorry affair in the first place."


Surely it would have been better if there had been nothing to publicise.

[SASless]

You reckon maybe just being there is enough cause for attacks by the Taliban?

Do you think for one instant the Taliban consider this just to be any thing but a normal ordinary event....shooting the wounded?

Do you think hunting down Taliban and AQ fighters by Apache in the dead of night does not amount to the same thing but is acceptable to the very people that are passing judgement on this Marine?

Do we apply the same treatment to Drone Operators when they hit a Wedding Ceremony and kill People in the Process.....and do those passing such harsh judgement on this Marine do the same for those Drone Operators and those who issue the Orders for those missions?

The Crime here was the video....and the results of the video.....not the killing of a Taliban fighter by the Marine. The killing was wrong.....but in my mind does not amount to a Crime.

Perhaps I have a prejudice on this kind of thing as I know what it is like for the Enemy to kill my wounded.....and us to kill theirs in return as happened in another War in another place. It happened in my Father's generation's War as well.

It will happen in the "next" War we fight too.

Welcome to War folks.....it ain't pretty, fair, or conducted as we would like to think War can be fought.

To single out this one Marine and ignore all the other killings is morally wrong.

You ask the Young Man to do Six Deployments to Combat and you get all upset when he kills an Enemy Fighter......something is wrong with that....starting with the Six Deployments to a War that has lasted over Ten Years.

Combine all this with the stupid assed ROE's extant today.....and it is time for the Troops to Stack Arms and come home.....TODAY!

[smujsmith]

SASless,

I'm no expert, but I am entitled to an opinion. As an ex serviceman I've watched the attempt to hack the head off a young man who had a life to live. I've seen ritual beheadings of "soft captures" on the Internet, and now we see our judiciary turn against a soldier, of proven ability and fidelity, and hand out a punishment, designed to set an example. I agree with you, why should any British serviceman continue to serve, with the constant threat of our judicial system going PC ? I managed a few years myself, and never, ever, considered that my country would let me down. I think we can now see where their loyalties lie, despite the sanctimonious utterings of the likes of Camoron they will not stand by the troops they order in to battle. Perhaps people contemplating taking up a reserve situation might be having second thoughts.

Smudge

[Heathrow Harry]

the difference between us & the Taliban is that we do not condone or allow the murder of prisoners or non combatants

lose that anchor and we're on the road to hell - which is what happened to a lot of US guys in Vietnam - it saps the whole ethos of any armed forces if they turn to instant justice

[GreenKnight121]

SASless, smujsmith... what "Marine A" did has been a criminal act since before WW2, so taking action against him is neither "PC" nor unexpected.

Murdering a helpless prisoner is nothing like attacking a group of armed active terrorists from the air... nor is it like accidentally hitting a group of civilians due to bad intell. The Apache case is a normal combat action, the wedding party were not the intended targets of the drone attack, but the deliberate murder of a prisoner is forbidden by the laws of warfere that the UK, US, and many other nations agreed to many decades ago.

Those laws apply to the signatories without regard to the actions of any enemy... you can't just ignore them if you feel like it. That way leads to My Lai and similar events.

[orca]

Suggest reading of Jeff Blackett's sentencing piece.

Some details weren't as I had read them in the press, i.e the deliberate movement of the casualty from view of the PGSS, the deliberate cessation of first aid, the deliberate wait for the AH to depart and the fact that the Sgt hadn't actually seen any 'trophies' suspended in trees.

I wonder if our unprecedented op tempo might have a few effects wider than just this one?

[Whenurhappy]

Yes, there seems precious little evidence of this 'body parts in trees' allegation.

[Basil]

orca,
Found it here. (http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/Resources/JCO/Documents/Judgments/r-v-blackman-marine-a-sentencing%20remarks.pdf)

I nevertheless have to say that there I was thinking that our basic function was to kill the enemy until his will and capability to wage war was destroyed. Must go up to the loft and read my old training précis again. Must have misunderstood first time round. :rolleyes:

[orca]

Basil,

I don't disagree, and I am sure that you would agree that in this case the will and capability had already been destroyed.

[SASless]

lose that anchor and we're on the road to hell - which is what happened to a lot of US guys in Vietnam

Harry....I challenge you to corroborate your statement.

Document the evidence whereby you make that statement.

You are using a Liberal Myth....in my view....a LIE when you speak as you do.

You are certainly entitled to your Opinion.....but you are not entitled to your own facts.....you must use real, verifiable, demonstrable data and evidence when you make such comments. I suppose you would say the Brits lost their anchor when the RAF resorted to Area Bombing of Cities in an effort to destroy German Factory Workers homes too....right? How many tens of thousands of Civilians did your Forces kill in that process?

Now I know you will throw out My Lai as your proof....but you will ignore the fact it was stopped, reported, and finally prosecuted by the Army. You will also refuse to acknowledge what the NVA/VC did in Hue during 1968 Tet.....they murdered over 3000-5000 people and there was not a peep out of folks like you.

So Harry....prove your statement or shut the hell up!




Green,

I can post several videos of Apaches attacking Enemy forces....and we can see some of those forces being quite plainly Wounded....but still alive....and the Audio contains the phrase...."Hit him again!". That indicates the Air Crew know the guy is wounded...and they re-engage and kill him/them.

Exactly what is different about that and what Marine A did?

Are you trying to suggest the Geneva Accords do not apply to Apache Pilots or that there is a Waiver or Exemption in the Geneva Accords that allows for the Apache Crews to kill wounded enemy personnel?

Understand please.....I am all for what the Apache Pilots do....killing the Enemy is what War is about....and I think the Infantry who deal with the Enemy eyeball to eyeball....should get exactly the same treatment as aircrew who are only slightly more remote from the nastiness.

If the remoteness factor determines who is exempt....then perhaps we shall find everyone wanting to be a UAV Pilot or B-52 Pilot rather than be an Infantry Soldier as that would seem to be the way to never be accused of Murder despite killing dozens of innocent people....or even one "guilty" person.

[Genstabler]

SASless
Your post 189 undermines your argument.
This was cold blooded, cynical, premeditated murder of an incapacitated enemy. Yes, it happens, always has and always will. But if we are soldiers of a civilised society then we should certainly not condone it and should rigorously punish those who do it. If you condone his actions you are, in my view, no better than the SS.

[SASless]

I am just like the SS am i?

That is not a very nice comment.

Do explain why you think that?

This was cold blooded, cynical, premeditated murder of an incapacitated enemy. Yes, it happens, always has and always will. But if we are soldiers of a civilised society then we should certainly not condone it and should rigorously punish those who do it.

So exactly what was accomplished by prosecuting Marine A for this.....if you admit these acts will always happen.....evidently there is something that causes Soldiers to do this that is not deterred by punishing others. So what is it that causes Soldiers to kill the Enemy?

My arguments have been consistent....it is your interpretation that is the problem.

What you and others don't like is to forced to confront reality.....and that is there is no "Moral High Ground" in War. Touchy Feely PC thinking has no place in War.

[Genstabler]

Come on SASless! Are you serious?
Murder and rape have always happened and always will. Do you believe we should then condone it and pardon the perpetrators? If you do, you are...
And I said "no better than...", not "just like...".

[SASless]

Answer the question.....you are tap dancing!

You compared me to the SS....explain why you said that.

[Genstabler]

Because you seem to be demonstrating a similar moral compass in respect of murdering prisoners. Is that clear enough for you?

[SASless]

How's that Gen.....it would seem you don't read or retain what is said in posts.

Did I not point out the contradiction between punishing Marine A....and not Apache Pilots who do the exact same thing.....killing the wounded?

If you are so adamant about killing the Enemy Wounded you would logically support my statement it would seem. As both the Marine and the Apache Pilots are killing wounded Taliban fighters.

I do wonder why you feel free to make an argument such as this....a personal attack rather than debate the issues.

Is it you don't get the Rules of the Forum just as you seem to be unable to grasp the reality of War and Politics?

[FODPlod]

In my view, any comparison between SASless and the SS is invidious; it's too easy to make sweeping generalisations and tar(nish) everyone with the same brush.

To elaborate, I'm not convinced that the entire SS condoned the cold-blooded summary execution of incapacitated, unarmed POWs and the attempted concealment of such acts in the certain knowledge that they contravened the Geneva Convention and LOAC.

[Toadstool]

There is an absolute and clear distinction between an Apache pilot carrying out a re-attack and this Royal Marine who committed murder.

There is clear and irrefutable evidence of Taliban getting away from Apache attacks who have returned to Helmand and carried out the fight by killing coalition soldiers. In this case, the Taliban is still a threat and is legally allowed to be re-attacked.

In the case of the Royal Marine, they went out to what they presumed to be a dead Taliban who had been legally attacked. If the Apache crew thought he was still a threat because he was trying to escape then they would have carried on the attack. The marines went out to investigate the post attack and found someone who was alive but injured, clearly not a threat and, had they followed procedures, would have been given first aid and possibly evacuated to a Hospital. This has been and will be done on countless occasions. The Royal, who clearly demonstrated on the tape that he knew what he was doing was against the GC etc, pulled the Taliban away from the PGSS and carried out what has been described by others but is in no way a legal form of a mercy killing.

This isn't just a normal war a la WW2 or Vietnam or Korea in which there was, at times, little regard for civilian casualties by any of the combatants. This is COIN centric where we are there to not only kill the Taliban but to try to leave some kind of infrastructure and rule of law, and as a result we have to play by the rules. Why you ask, because in not doing so, it would endanger the lives of many more coalition troops. I am sure that nobody would wish this but, given the media nowadays, this case damages even more our standing in Afghanistan and hinders our efforts.

Some people have described this as not a murder. Some people who really should know better given their background. They even harp on about the past where such atrocities were committed as if this is an excuse to do it now. I thought we learned about the past so not to commit further mistakes. It appears some still live in the past and refuse to learn. Thankfully, most if not all the people I have and continued to serve with in past and current conflicts do not have this kill at all costs and be damned the consequences.

I just wish that the Taliban in this case had been killed in the first instance then this sorry mess wouldn't have happened. That the Royal in question was a brave honourable soldier who served his country well is without question and I hope he and his family are well looked after. The moment he illegally committed murder, as is done unfortunately every day throughout the world by otherwise perfectly sane people who suddenly snap, he became an unfortunate statistic. Again, people will point to extenuating circumstances given the amount of ****e he will have encountered throughout his otherwise exemplary service. This is not an excuse. He is a well trained and professional SNCO who was a leader and example to those in his section.

His actions could have severely affected those under his command and could have serious repercussions for others in Afghanistan. We should not praise or condone what he did, but we should at least treat him with compassion for what was a momentary lapse in judgement that has destroyed his life.

[Genstabler]

Toadstool
An excellent post.

[4Greens]

This may have been said but the most appalling part is releasing his name, hence putting his family at great risk.

[Tourist]

Toadstool

Also agreed. Very well said. I was nearly with you.

However.

"Some people have described this as not a murder. Some people who really should know better given their background. They even harp on about the past where such atrocities were committed as if this is an excuse to do it now. I thought we learned about the past so not to commit further mistakes. It appears some still live in the past and refuse to learn. Thankfully, most if not all the people I have and continued to serve with in past and current conflicts do not have this kill at all costs and be damned the consequences. "

This quote shows the problem.

You know those old wars, where we used to commit atrocities?
We used to win them.
These new wars where we generally obey the rules and the other side doesn't?
Not so much.
They don't think we are moral. They think we are weak.

If you are not willing to "win at all cost and be damned the consequences" then you have absolutely no business sending men like the Marine into combat.

We have nuclear weapons yet send a man to jail for shooting a bad guy!!
Talk about sending mixed signals, when it is perfectly normalised that we may have to wipe out entire cities of innocent people but bad guys with a hurty tummy are off limits!?

My honest opinion is that the rules of war are there to make the public feel happy and actually prolong war and suffering for everybody.

Some of the "greats" from the history of bad guys such as Genghis Khan had amazingly peaceful conquests and reigns due to the fact that after a couple of atrocities, nobody was willing to fight anymore.

[Genstabler]

Tourist
To correct a common misconception, we are not at war with Afghanistan. We are trying to assist the elected government of the Godforsaken place in restoring a semblance of peace and stability after centuries of tribal infighting.

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Thanks Tourist, at last a balance and a line I can agree with.
Perhaps another "old war" practice we can resurrect is the banning of all personal cameras etc by military personnel whilst on duty unless specifically approved. Sadly, it seems that many youngsters today are unable to say or do anything without proudly announcing it to the world, so such a ban may prove impossible to impose.
My calling card was a bucket of sunshine so the quote "resonates" for me.

We have nuclear weapons yet send a man to jail for shooting a bad guy!!
Talk about sending mixed signals, when it is perfectly normalised that we may have to wipe out entire cities of innocent people but bad guys with a hurty tummy are off limits!?

[SASless]

Gen.....you must get out more often....if you do not consider Afghanistan a War....pray tell what it takes for there to be a "War"?

You seem quite happy with Drone Attacks on Weddings....SpecOps units doing direct action raids that have the goal of killing everyone present.....embrace Attack Helicopters hunting down Enemy Combatants and popping off Cannon Rounds and Hellfire missiles at plainly wounded enemy....but for some reason take great exception to a Grunt tapping out a wounded enemy.

You compared me to the SS....yet I am the one that is equating those other killings to that of the Marine. Don't you see the contradiction between my position and yours....where I lay a more stringent burden on those pulling triggers than you do.

[Tourist]

Genstabler


Any conflict that has gone on for a decade and bankrupted our nations military, leaving us in unbelievably weakened state is a war in my book no matter what your politicians double speak may say.

Go tell the families of the dead soldiers that " it isn't a war" :=

[Genstabler]

Tourist
If you have not learned the difference between war and lesser forms of armed conflict during your time in uniform, then your education has been woefully neglected. We were not at war in N Ireland but I lost a good few friends there and nearly my own life. However, I never considered bombing the Creggan.

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Many did old boy.
However like most comments on this forum they reflected deep held passions and grievances etc. and were known to be impossible for many reasons, legality amongst them. The same applies to the sensitive subjects of marine A and the real sh1te killers of Lee Rigby(or should I say alleged killers)) People will hold a view (I do) which is not supported by our laws, ROE and so on, . We also know that the opinions do not or may not match official thinking. To dismiss someones opinion because a "war" does not exist because our pollies have not declared the situation as such is sheer nonsense and shows an inability to think beyond the "rules". If you fully support and agree with them so be it.......if you don't do something about it.

I suspect when people refer to the Afghanistan War they are referring to the "war" with the taliban and various terrorist insurgents

[Tourist]

The fact that British ministers happen to have not decided to call it a war due to the modern world taking time to catch up with the realities on non-state conflict matters not to me because I am intelligent and think for myself.

Note, I use the word intelligent rather than staff college educated/ reduced to regurgitating pat phrases.

Incidentally, Americans do think it is a war, albeit a war on something pronounced "terrr"


p.s.

You mention N.Ireland.
We certainly didn't win there.
Perhaps if we'd bombed....

[Genstabler]

I'm sorry, old boy, but you confuse me. What is a "valid" opinion which I apparently dismiss so nonsensically? An opinion is a personal view that everyone has. It can no more be valid than it can be green. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, though some would be better advised to keep them quiet. I object to no ones opinion. I disagree with many though, and that also is my right.

Deeply held passions and grievances are the direct cause of most of the murder and mayhem throughout the world. It is civilisation with its commitment to law, order, morality and humanity which we depend on to moderate the evil that they can so often generate.

Please don't contemptuously dismiss the moral high ground either. If we do not seize and hold it, we cannot, and don't deserve to, prevail against chaos and evil.

[Genstabler]

Tourist
For a self styled intelligent person you can be really obtuse! However, I find your posts very entertaining and you are never boring, which is probably more than I can say for myself, pat phrase regurgitating staff college graduate that I am.

Dare I ask you one more question. You say we didn't win, what I presume you would classify as a war, in N Ireland. What result would you have called a win?

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Please don't contemptuously dismiss the moral high ground either

I don't think I did, either deliberately or contemptuosly.
What result would you have called a win?
Some questions are best left unanswered

[SASless]

staff college graduate that I am.

Careful you don't break your own arm patting yourself on the back eh, Mate!

[GreenKnight121]

SASless... do you know what the word PRISONER means?

NONE of those men in the Apache video were prisoners... none of them had been disarmed and taken into physical custody! They were not prisoners!

The man Marine murdered HAD been disarmed and taken into physical custody! He was a prisoner!

If you can't understand that difference, then you certainly have a severe mental defect.

[SASless]

Green.....I refer you to the companion Thread (Substitute Marine A for Pilot A) and the comments posted there.

Gen Stabler makes some rather dubious comments there as well....such as....

I hope, and expect, that the RM will look after his family and, when he is released, him too. This is a tragic and embarrassing business.

How does the Royal Marines "Look After his Family"...having convicted Marine A of Murder, sentenced him Ten Years to Life in Prison, given him a Dishonorable Discharge and forfeiture of all pay and allowances?

You Higher Moral Ground folks sound a bit confused to me.

Killing Wounded who are not fighting back is the same no matter their status of Prisoner or Not a Prisoner. The difference is we think it legitimate to kill them from the air but not face to face. You folks who wish to claim the High Moral Ground should embrace that concept as otherwise you give up that Lofty Perch.

I am saying it is immoral to have a double standard such as was applied to the Marine.

It is the double standard I am offended by.

I have never said the Marine did nothing wrong....just that he should be granted the same leeway Apache Pilots are given.

Once a Sniper whacks a fellow and he is plainly wounded, no longer a threat, but then takes a second shot....would you do to the Sniper as happened to the Marine?

What is the difference there?

If a Grunt pops a Taliban fighter with a Small Arms round, knocks him down, and the Wounded guy is laying in the middle of the road....and the Soldier whacks him again.....is that illegal in your book?

You High Moral Ground folks realize you undertake the obligation to render the same medical care to a wounded combatant as to one of our own wounded....right?

Granted the Taliban do not qualify for any protection under the Geneva Accords as they are Illegal Combatants by definition.

When folks get on this higher moral ground argument....they have to remember where it leads.

And so you know....I do not have a severe mental defect....just a strong feeling of disgust over the way the Senior Officers in our militaries will hang out our Troops to dry without taking any responsibility for their own foul deeds and gross incompetence.

How many of our Troops have bled out waiting for a Medevac that did not come until way too late because of some very stupid rules and the refusal to provide the necessary air cover to enable the Helicopters to get to the wounded.

Read up on one fight....Robert's Ridge and the young Air Force PJ named Cunningham then talk to me about Higher Moral Ground, Good Order and Discipline and all that crap.

[Toadstool]

Some people just don't get it.

The killing was wrong.....but in my mind does not amount to a Crime.

I believe you were a policeman at one time SAS. Given your own interpretation of the GC and the LOAC which your country and most if not all of the countries of the world have signed up to, did you adhere strictly to the laws of your land or did you pick and choose according to the situation and moment? Say for example, did vigilantes get let off? Anyway, I digress, lets discuss further your own interpretation of the rules and knowledge of the current campaign.

just that he should be granted the same leeway Apache Pilots are given. As I and many others pointed out, Apache Pilots are granted permission to fire upon the enemy under the ROE and are also given leeway to carry out a re-attack. There have been many occasions whereby Taliban who have been attacked by AH have managed to escape, with varying degrees of injury, and have returned some time later to carry on the fight. This means that they are still a threat in the future and as such are a valid target. At no time did they surrender and at no time were they a prisoner.

Let me make this clear, this isn't just about the fact that the Taliban was injured. It is about the fact that he was disarmed, no longer a threat, effectively in custody, oh and was also injured. Whether injured or not, he was still shot in the chest by someone who knew that what he was doing was wrong. I think in police speak you could almost call that first degree murder.

At no time, during an air attack, is the person who is being attacked completely disarmed, no longer a threat and in custody/a prisoner. Remember, air attacks don't always work and have left Taliban to fight again. Please tell me you don't want them to return and fight again. The Taliban in this case, I highly doubt he would have been a problem in the future.

SAS, can you tell the difference or is it still a wee bit too difficult?

Once a Sniper whacks a fellow and he is plainly wounded, no longer a threat, but then takes a second shot....would you do to the Sniper as happened to the Marine?

Is the fellow trying to escape? Is he still attempting to fight? If he is, then fair game. If he is waving the white flag of surrender and clearly intending to surrender then a second shot would not be taken. However, given your interpretation of the LOAC, then presumably a white flag doesn't mean anything?

You High Moral Ground folks realize you undertake the obligation to render the same medical care to a wounded combatant as to one of our own wounded....right?

As has been done in the past, will probably happen today and will happen in the future. Got a problem with that? Of course you do, you don't agree with your country being a signatory to all that GC bull**** do you?

As an aside, when our guys overran the hills at Tumbledown etc, once the guys with whom they had been in bitter conflict became prisoners, each and every soldier, regardless of nationality, were treated with Triage. Do you think the Argentinians should have been left to bleed out till the last? GC anyone?

When folks get on this higher moral ground argument....they have to remember where it leads.

Oh believe me, those of us who are doing the fighting now are well aware of where this leads. We are also doubly aware of what happens if you completely disregard the LOAC and the GC/Accords.

Senior Officers in our militaries will hang out our Troops to dry without taking any responsibility for their own foul deeds and gross incompetence.

They weren't on trial here, the Royal was. You can't make a case for murder not being murder by hiding behind the 'it's not our fault, it's our leaders fault' argument. Each and every soldier is also responsible for their own code of conduct at some time. Or are they not?

How many of our Troops have bled out waiting for a Medevac that did not come until way too late because of some very stupid rules and the refusal to provide the necessary air cover to enable the Helicopters to get to the wounded.

Tragic indeed, but these stupid rules are actually in place to save lives. Brave helicopter crews do indeed land in hot LZs to evacuate wounded personnel (including Taliban btw) however sometimes the Taliban have carried out an attack with the sole aim of carrying out an ambush on the medivac helicopter. In order to save the lives of the medivac crew and all the others on board the aircraft, it has been necessary to ensure that there is protection for the medivac helicopter. I take it you don't agree.

Read up on the GC, Accords, LOAC, definition of murder etc or don't. You probably don't agree with your country being a signatory, as do a couple of British posters on here. Shall we get rid of them then?

Apparently, just because we used the principle of MAD with regard to nuclear weapons, and were prepared, as part of this policy, to destroy cities with nuclear weapons means that we can pick and choose which parts of the GC and the LOAC we can apply on the battlefield. Once we start picking and choosing which parts we apply and which parts we don't, we are on a slippery slope. We hold ourselves to higher standards regardless of what others do....or so I thought.

I do take your point and outrage at the killing of wedding parties. I seem to recall that your country and its generals, so outraged at the lax ROE in country that allowed this to happen, decided to implement tighter ROE so this wouldn't happen. So, which is it to be in the COIN centric campaign? Tighter ROE to ensure non combatants don't get killed and prisoners not getting murdered or our own on-the-spot interpretation of the rules? As someone who is due to return next year on yet another deployment, I hope this tragedy doesn't affect the lives of those with whom I am deploying. I for one will be applying and adhering to the principles of the LOAC. Anyone else?

The clincher is of course that the Royal, who was there, had been there for a while, and had been subjected to all sorts of horrors knew that what he was doing was wrong. He knew and he was there.

[M609]

That was one of the most accurate posts I've seen on pprune ever. Well said!

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Well done Ts you've secured the moral high ground, and few people myself included can argue that the verdict was incorrect. The sentence however........You all come over as totally without compassion. (My opinion and not necessarily correct of course)

[Toadstool]

ROG,

moral high ground for being against murder and the consquences for others? Thanks I suppose, that was never my intention. My intention was of course to counter those who think that anything goes, despite their training. Perhaps you should read all my posts for an idea of my compassion. Its there for all to see, you just need to find it.

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Got it Ts thanks-- apologies for not checking thoroughly.

Former defence minister Sir Gerald Howarth has been on the radio today saying the sentence is too harsh and he shouldn't have been named.


Lord West was the other contributor to the Radio5live broadcast today talking of compassion, or the opportunity lost with this"excessive" (sic) sentence to show compassion. I don't know how to get the podcast (if it exists) but the discussion considered the unique nature of the crime and the respective "major players" and 5 yrs absolute max was mentioned but the gist was for a considerably lesser penalty. Naming, they considered shameful.

[Courtney Mil]

ROG,

Toadstool was quite clearly not trying to secure any kind of high ground, he was simply putting things in context with regard to the LOAC and, if I may say so, saving lives and showing compassion. I am not arguing either way here about the verdict or sentence, just making a point about T's post.