Do all Military Aircraft have Radar?

[Leftofcentre2009]

Had a very pleasant trip from Wellesbourne to Kemble and back today with my daughter.

On the way home, we were climbing through 4000ft on a northerly heading when my daughter almost leapt off her seat in excitement - she had spotted an RAF Herc come from underneath us at about 2000ft.

They flew parallel for a while at not much greater speed than ourselves i must add, only then to turn away to the right on what i presume Finals for Brize Norton.

An amazing sight and what makes me love this hobby soo much. You just never know what your going to see.

I am just wondering if anybody is in the know, whether such military aircraft have air - air radar of sorts and how far away he would have picked us up? I was taken a little bit by suprise with this today because they came underneath and from behind. I also often see Chinooks and the odd Lynx flying VMC in the uncontrolled airspace above our house. Any info will be read with interest :ok:

[ShyTorque]

Many military aircraft have a weather radar, but not one that will pick up another aircraft.

[Leftofcentre2009]

So they are just flying visually? I do find that very suprising.

[Talkdownman]

That's why they have windows too.

[larzabell]

I was recently talking to a Typhoon pilot from Leuchars who confirmed that neither the Typhoon nor the Tornado have TCAS. I would imagine that the Hercules does have it but couldn't say for certain.

[VP-F__]

the Herc would only have a weather radar certainly not air to air radar. They probably will have TCAS. It is possible to pick up other aircraft on a weather radar, I have done so a couple of times, the first being over the ocean while using the weather radar to look for whales, it was turned down to a ten mile range with high gain. It gave quite a surprise when I looked out expecting to see a couple of hundred pilot whales to spot a herc instead!

[Torque Tonight]

I am not sure why it should be surprising for military aircraft to fly visually and I'm not sure what good a radar would be when I'm wazzing down a valley at low level.

Talkdownman:ok:

[Dave Clarke Fife]

Tactical flying, circuit work .....all mark1eyeball. This is a copy of the standard C130J fit ;


The C-130J is crewed by two pilots and a loadmaster. The new glass cockpit features four L-3 display systems multifunction liquid crystal displays for flight control and navigation systems.
Each pilot has a Flight Dynamics head-up display (HUD). The dual mission computers, supplied by BAE Systems IEWS, operate and monitor the aircraft systems and advise the crew of status.
The cockpit is fitted with the Northrop Grumman low-power colour radar display. The map display shows digitally stored map image data.
The C-130J is equipped with a Honeywell dual embedded global positioning system / inertial navigation system (GPS/INS), an enhanced traffic alerting and collision avoidance system (E-TCAS), a ground collision avoidance system, SKE2000 station keeping system, and an instrument landing system (ILS).
In July 2008, Lockheed Martin announced the following would be included in the baseline configuration of new C-130Js: Elbit Systems global digital map unit and the TacView portable mission display and InegrFlight commercial GPS landing system sensor unit, supplied by CMC of Canada.

[thing]

Mil ac work generally the same way that you do, eyeballs out the cockpit. Been a while since I was in the RAF but fighter radar has a cut off point for slow moving traffic.

A famous case in point was when the F15 was first deployed to Germany. They use to track targets at low level wondering where the hell they were all coming from until they realised they were tracking cars on the autobahn (no speed limit).

[Leftofcentre2009]

That's why they have windows too.
and
I am not sure why it should be surprising for military aircraft to fly visually and I'm not sure what good a radar would be when I'm wazzing down a valley at low level.

All this stuff -
an enhanced traffic alerting and collision avoidance system (E-TCAS), a ground collision avoidance system, SKE2000 station keeping system, and an instrument landing system (ILS).
Are the windows an optional upgrade then?

Funny how even the most innocent bit of interest soon turns into a sarky belittling posting from the alledged experts on here.

I'll revert to carrying on with my life . . .

[mad_jock]

I think the new hawks have tcas as well.

Don't go in a huff mate.

Military in someways are years behind in the safety techno kit which the civi's have.

It takes years and years to get Military approval for it to be installed, then there is finding the funds. A Honeywell TCAS processor is something like $18k and no doud't its double for the mil version. If its not in the intial spec in the development its a major expensive mod to fit for each type.

As for airborne radars that can pick up aircraft. Its pretty special kit which uses different frequency's to wx radar. If you do a search for blue circle radar which was in the tornado F3 you can get a bit of history.

An AWACS will be able to pick you up and some other special assets but your normal trunkies, training aircraft, helicopters etc won't have it. Even the fighter defence on training flights aircraft may not have it working as the working machines will be on emergency standby or in operations.

I have never been in the RAF but have done some engineering type stuff to get boxes tested for fitting (there are G tests and stuff like that) but have mates that are in. I believe the Tutors have something in the works for a light aircraft TCAS type installation but they are slightly different as they are Civi aircraft and under different rules. This was after the two cadets got killed in a midair.

So the long and short is that most look out the window ;)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<So they are just flying visually? I do find that very suprising.>>

If he was landing at a major airfield he was possibly under radar control. I hope you were talking to Brize, in which case ATC would have ensured safety.

[mad_jock]

More than likely not HD.

Brize is one of the units who are "difficult" when taking a basic service off them in uncontrolled airspace in GA. To be honest they are the same if you flying something bigger as well.

There instrument procedures extend outside controlled airspace and as a civi we have no way of finding out because the RAF charge for access to their AIP. So you get bun fights with the Controllers trying to keep GA away from the holds which are in class G.

The service pilot who replied to the question "what type of service do you require"

"The usual piss poor one"

Wasn't joking

[Contacttower]

Some military aircraft have terrain following radar that allows accurate and fast low level flying but the C130 doesn't have this.

I actually sat in on a low level sortie in the Herc while in the UAS a few years ago and the low level navigation is predominantly done with a large scale ground chart if I remember rightly.

[mad_jock]

Tornado GR4 has it and is brother had the blue circle radar.

[Talkdownman]

instrument procedures extend outside controlled airspace
I think that this is a big part of the Class G problem. Many IAPs are not protected from itinerant IFR traffic and it becomes quite unwieldy to provide the draconian 'don't anyone come near me, not even VFR' Deconfliction Service. But why the VFRs get pushed about I do not understand, traffic info should suffice...maybe TCAS RAs are the cause of that...

[mad_jock]

I fly with TCAS in the works machine.

I fly in class G for the majority of my working day.

This has been the same for the previous 8 years. Including under RAS etc.

I have never had a TCAS RA near an airport. I have had them on the NEW-ABZ direct route against Mil doing a 6000ft/min climb but never with a GA.

But then again in VMC in class G I fly visually in IMC I fly on instruments. Its this instrument flying in visual conditions which causes half the problems.

So I think there is a lot of miss information out there about what will and won't trigger a RA. You will get traffic traffic if it doesn't have mode C on. But an actual RA from a S&L GA showing Mode C 1500ft below not a chance in hell unless they suddenly lift the nose and get over 500ft climb rate.

[Talkdownman]

Perhaps it's just over-zealous jobsworths then...

[Leftofcentre2009]

Dont go off in a huff mate

I.m not really in a huff, just annoys me how you ask an innocent question and you gets a reply from the sarky jokers on here.

Partly why i even asked is because last year when i was still training for my PPL, we were up around 5000ft practicing stall recovery when we saw a couple of Tornadoes skim the surface beneath us. My instructor said to me back then that they probably saw us long before we saw them.

I hope you were talking to Brize

No i wasnt talking to Brize, much in the same way i dont talk to Birmingham when arriving/departing Wellesbourne. We were about 10miles due north from Kemble and outside Brize Lars.

In the past though i have found Brize very helpful. Indeed we had a club visit there last November. Myself and 5 other club aircraft dropped in for a tour of the ATC and lunch in the Officers Mess. Am not usualy into all that but it was a very pleasant day out and was quite interesting to meet the ATC guys and girls.

[mad_jock]

The snitches in the aircraft and fear of being dragged into the office if you do an unstable approach linked in as well with low houred magenta line borg cadet pilots is why a lot of CAT operators in class G tend to always do the instrument approaches.

Flying a visual actually requires a bit of piloting skill, flying the procedure takes selecting the approach and pressing execute twice. Followed by taking the AP out at 200ft. With both heads inside monitoring the automatics.

[Talkdownman]

both heads inside monitoring the automatics
If they are not gonna be looking out the window, then, and TCAS RAs seem to be down the list, is it worth bothering with Heavy-Duty DS? Surely the old Limited RAS would suffice...

[mad_jock]

Don't know the difference to be honest.

As a pilot you tend to take what you get given and just deal with it.

The management types on the ground will always say "the best service available"

Personally in G I take the view that I am unprotected so will position my aircraft in such a way to minimise risk. ie stay high until close in and then drop in visually ignoring the instrument procedures. Any radar service is a bonus but no protection is deemed to be given by it because I know it has limited capabilities with microlights and gliders nether of which carry mode C so tcas doesn't work.

This works well with procedural units. But when you start dealing with radar units they start trying to force you into high risk airspace at levels which are full of GA.

[Talkdownman]

stay high until close in and then drop in visually
You clearly fly turboprops...

[mad_jock]

yep but I have friends that fly jets that are more than happy operating the same way.

When I say high all I am taking about is 5000ft. And its just energy management you just slow up before you descend and chuck the gear and flaps out. You can still make your stabilised 1000ft gate IMC and 500ft gate on a visual from 8 miles. But most airports seem to want 2000ft at 12 miles for the intercept which is below the 3000ft danger area where most GA operate in.

Modern TP's are actually quite slippery and the amount of air braking effect you get on the high tech knife props is much reduced compared to the old fashioned props which battered the air into submission. So its more a different style and philosophy of flying them than any real performance difference.

New TP's would need 6-8 miles and the older ones can do it at about 4. Pax comfort does come into play as well but smooth control inputs and they don't have a clue in my experience. But its not as much fun as screaming down to 2000ft at 250 knts then bleeding the energy off chucking the gear out and then descending on the glide from 6 miles.

[englishal]

Brize is one of the units who are "difficult" when taking a basic service off them in uncontrolled airspace in GA.
I find that difficult to believe. I have always had a great traffic service from Brize, from as far south as Bath. I was handed off by Yeovilton when Brisoool Radar was kaput.

(although once when I called them over Bath he responded with a "You are inside controlled airspace, immediate right turn, avoiding action"....to which I replied, "Negative, I am over Bath at 2500' and not in CAS".....which was met with a pause and then a lot of apologizing !)....

[mad_jock]

You would do miles away from them.

But when they want 3-5 miles separation for there radar circuit which goes outside there airspace or they have stuff in the holds they start getting snotty.

But its been a few years since I have had to deal with them maybe they have had a change of boss and the style has changed. Good news if it has. But the previous style will mean there are a fair few pilots out there that won't talk to them.

[wiggy]

Military in someways are years behind in the safety techno kit which the civi's have.

It takes years and years to get Military approval for it to be installed, then there is finding the funds. A Honeywell TCAS processor is something like $18k and no doud't its double for the mil version. If its not in the intial spec in the development its a major expensive mod to fit for each type.

To be fair the military fast jet guys ( and girls), especially those flashing around at low level, are operating in a very different and much more dynamic environment to most of the rest of u:(s.... given they're often as not in nothing like straight and level flight predictable flight I'm not sure how a TCAS could generate any sort of meaningful RA with conflicting traffic ( especially if the conflicting traffic is being similarly "dynamic"). I guess the best you could hope for the kit to provide would be a TA....

I'm not surprised the Tornado and Typhoon aren't TCAS equipped.

[mad_jock]

With current processing power it shouldn't be a problem.

Problem with both of those is that the initial spec was defined before TCAS was mature or for that matter mandatory for civilian aircraft.

And adding it in post development would delay the in service date and cost a fortune.

I wouldn't be surprised if something will be in the next generation of aircraft just as its integrated into the avionics of the A400.

[Torque Tonight]

Good grief Leftofcentre, that was a rather hypersensitive response to my post which I actually think is perfectly valid. If you think about the roles that various military aircraft have, it should be reasonably clear that that many of this roles will be undertaken VFR. Think about a herc doing para dropping, a Chinook lifting artillery out of Salibury Plain, a Sea King performing Search and Rescue or a fast jet flying down a valley. Most military aircraft do not have any air to air radar and, if you think about low flying (which is a vital tactic for many mil types) where you are deliberately flying at a height where adjacent terrain blocks radar, a radar would be of no use whatsoever. It is far more important to be looking outside continuously.

Civil flying is generally quite predictable and calm. Military flying is often extremely dynamic and for this reason many civil procedures and equipment are not so appropriate for military aircraft.

[Ebbie 2003]

On flying visual.

In 2011 I was in the US and two Air National Guard F-16's landed - spoke with the pilots - turns out it's a bit like the TA - anyway I asked how they kept current especially IFR - they said that they were VFR pilots and the most in the regular military were too (also mentioned that military pilot actually don't/don't have to hold any FAA licenses/ratings).

They did mention that if they are going somewhere in IMC conditions that their follow their leader (assume he is the 'IFR expert') and when in cloud they can follow with targeting radars - also said that for some like me getting upside down and "out of shape" would cause problems but that being in such attitudes is what they do.

I assume that transport planes the pilots are IFR trained (if not FAA "certified") - in any event an airplane at 2000ft is going to be visual anyway in VMC and as the observers were at 4000ft I assume those were the conditions. When I lived in the UK it was not uncommon to see US transport planes and the occasional fast jet in East Anglia - quite a treat when it happens; here I play dodgems with the big jets seems rather normal now but I do remember the first few times being told "number two behind the Virgin 747".

[Whopity]

I hope you were talking to Brize, in which case ATC would have ensured safety.If only it were true; I have twice had to take avoiding action to avoid other traffic visually whilst under control of Brize Radar.

[thing]

Unless you are IFR/IFR in class D it's still see and avoid. I know that they are supposed to pass traffic info but I don't think they are legally obliged to. If they are maxed out doing something else then VFR/VFR is at the bottom of the pecking order.

If you were IFR/IFR then apologies.

[flyelmoair]

Believe it or not, when we're all flying, during the week that is, around areas in which the fast jet types, more so the Typhoon's when they're not at Flight Level Nose Bleed, the Air-to-Air supremacy radar automatically locks you up for IFF purposes - apparently. Call it there TCAS. Tornados however, only have the terrain following stuff and rely on the Mk 1 eyeball.

Some of you may have seen The Sun's outlandish report on how a GR4 negative G inverted at 250' to avoid a glider that was floating around in the hills of Scotland. Last minute mk 1 eyeball visual alert.

Or the Traffic cop on the A1 who's speeding gun got IFF'd by the German GR4's a-g radar. Shame the pilot never thought it was a SAM and pulled that big red trigger = one less traffic cop! :ok:

Tutors, King Airs, Hawks, C130's and the bigger stuff all have TCAS. RAF is too safety orientated not to have them in the event a mk 1 eyeball suddenly becomes U/S.

I experienced a Low Level Herc trip though Wales, and in the flats of Shropshire the Captains head nearly fell off the swivel he was looking about that much!! Co-pilot was busy head in for the duration of the flight.

A very informative afternoon at the RAF Leuchars GA day. Thank you Leuchars! :D

[soaringhigh650]

Do all Military Aircraft have Radar?

I'm sorry but that's classified info.

You can assume some do, some don't.

[Leftofcentre2009]

flyelmoair (http://www.pprune.org/members/373546-flyelmoair) - v informative thanks :ok:

[thing]

I'm sorry but that's classified info.
The pointy bit at the front big enough to hold a radar or big whirly thing on top of the fuselage kind of gives it away a bit...I know, call me Sherlock.

As to classified info I used to be on the E3 AWACS. We took one to an air show not a million miles from Marham once, the public could walk around it. Of course all of the power is off and the classified bits are obviously not observable.

You would be amazed what the anoraks know about military aircraft. Most of the questions were an 'I'm afraid that's classified' answer, to which they would say 'Oh I would hazard a guess it's this' to which you would think ****, he's not far off the mark there.

Edit: have you ever had that at a fly in or GA air show somewhere? You know, when you break out the butties and pop from the a/c you usually get chatting to a non pilot type member of the public with a patched flying jacket and a lens on his camera the size of an aircraft carrier.

They can tell me stuff about the aircraft that I've flown in that I wouldn't have a clue about, of the 'Ah yes that's a 1988 model with the upside down grommet splurger and the 4th stage under charger on the engine.' All you can do is nod in a sage manner and try and shuffle away quietly...:)

[ShyTorque]

I once had a "spotter/nerd" get quite upset with me because I couldn't confirm or deny that the Puma helicopter I was looking after during a static display had/hadn't been used on a particular military exercise some four or five years earlier. I'd been on the OCU about a week at that stage....... so although I had flown it, I certainly didn't know it's entire life history! :bored:

[zondaracer]

In 2011 I was in the US and two Air National Guard F-16's landed - spoke with the pilots - turns out it's a bit like the TA - anyway I asked how they kept current especially IFR - they said that they were VFR pilots and the most in the regular military were too (also mentioned that military pilot actually don't/don't have to hold any FAA licenses/ratings).

They did mention that if they are going somewhere in IMC conditions that their follow their leader (assume he is the 'IFR expert') and when in cloud they can follow with targeting radars - also said that for some like me getting upside down and "out of shape" would cause problems but that being in such attitudes is what they do.

I assume that transport planes the pilots are IFR trained (if not FAA "certified") - in any event an airplane at 2000ft is going to be visual anyway in VMC and as the observers were at 4000ft I assume those were the conditions. When I lived in the UK it was not uncommon to see US transport planes and the occasional fast jet in East Anglia - quite a treat when it happens; here I play dodgems with the big jets seems rather normal now but I do remember the first few times being told "number two behind the Virgin 747".

All US military pilots are trained on instruments, but the mission doesn't not always lend itself to flying under instruments.

Transport guys are mostly flying under instrument rules, helicopter guys mostly under visual flight rules, and everyone else somewhere in between. The fighter guys are flying mostly visual, but they are all IFR trained and capable. When fighters are transitioning through IMC in formation, they will follow a lead aircraft just as they would in VMC, but acquisition radar can be used in the event that they fall behind, but in any case, they are all instrument qualified. When a military pilot in the US finishes their training, the FAA automatically issues them a commercial certificate and instrument ratings appropriate to the category and class flown in training, plus any appropriate type ratings (if they visit the FSDO).

[abgd]

Do even the helicopter pilots learn instrument flying? I have seen figures for commercial helicopter instrument ratings in the uk that were only just into double figures.

[mad_jock]

yep they do, they have to do a bit more of it than fixed wing pilots for there night ratings.

Although I don't know if its as much for there commercial license as the UK Cpl had a IMC attached until JAR came along.

[CharlieOneSix]

Do even the helicopter pilots learn instrument flying? I have seen figures for commercial helicopter instrument ratings in the uk that were only just into double figures.

Well, even the commercial helicopter pilots on the North Sea have had instrument ratings for decades and there are hundreds of them active at present, let alone all those pilots involved in onshore corporate transport who have them!

I think it was January 1973 when I passed my "Certificate of Competence" which allowed me to fly airways etc in helicopters - no formal helicopter instrument rating was in place then but the test was the same as the fixed wing instrument rating. I can't remember when the formal helicopter instrument rating was introduced but it certainly was in place by 1980 and since then thousands must have qualified.

[mad_jock]

it probably confusion about how instrument ratings work.

There is more than likely low figures of IR's listed because the majority of them will come under type ratings.

I think in the uk they can only do IR's in twin engine helicopters which require a type rating. So the IR's linked to Single engine pistons are really a legacy.