Any spare troops/fire engines chaps?

[Sandy Parts]

see here BBC News - Firefighters back industrial action in pensions row (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23884078) - I know the old MACP isn't supposed to cover this any more but will the guys and girls of HM forces end up filling in again? I wonder....

[Al R]

One to watch.

The FBU says many firefighters will not be able to maintain fitness standards into their late 50s and this endangers the public. If any have to retire early at, for example, 55 as 'we' currently can do, they will suffer via an actuarial deduction. Having just worked on a rather complicated divorce case with some help from the Government Actuarial Department (thanks SPVA by the way :rolleyes:), thats a very scary proposition.

If we have servicemen soldiering on until 60, they face a similar financial scenario in the event of ageing bodies simply being unable to work as required.

[Just This Once...]

The RAF Firefighters were briefed a couple of weeks ago, just in case.

The news did not go down well in a trade group that has quite a few issues already.

[Hangarshuffle]

Elements of RN (Aircraft Handlers among others) were briefed as well. FBU members have struck/worked to rule/carried out limited response to incidents several times over the last 13 odd years and threatened many more (as I recall). Possibly expect another limited action again in the future?

[The B Word]

For some it's standby to standby...

Still at least the FBU's firemen can brush up their volleyball and top up their tans - :mad:

No sympathy for this lot as they should suck it up like the rest of us...

The B Word

[Hangarshuffle]

Might be all just hot air by the union, they're always scoping things then quietly dropping them. The manpower planners at both VL and CU always seemed to be having to draw up plans and contingencies, and thankfully a lot of the time they come to nothing. Hope this is the case here, last thing this country needs is internal strife and trouble.

[Rosevidney1]

Green Goddess time again, perhaps? :uhoh:

[P6 Driver]

Still at least the FBU's firemen can brush up their volleyball and top up
their tans - http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif



While doing their second jobs in some cases.

[orgASMic]

The Green Goddesses all got sold after Op FRESCO ZULU. The Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004 requires the Fire Service to make its equipment available for third party use in the event of industrial action.

[Tankertrashnav]

In another lifetime I was an RAF fire officer (Seletar and Kai Tak 1967 - 69). In those days the Fire School at Catterick was churning out firemen on a regular basis, a new course starting as the last one graduated. Nowadays with the much reduced RAF and many fire sections (as I understand it) now civilianised, just how many firemen could the RAF put into the civvy fire services should the need arise? I'm assuming the Navy and Army are in a similar position so I'm guessing the answer would be precious few.

The trouble is the people of this country still have this vague notion that there are thousands of spare troops sitting around doing nothing but whitewashing coal and polishing buttons, just waiting to help out when some crisis occurs. Someone should tell them, and at the same time make industrial action in the fire services on a par with the police - ie illegal.

[GalleyTeapot]

A fireman told me that there are plans to recruit members of the public to cover any strike, at the rate of £150 per day per recruit. A few days training running out hoses and climbing ladders, then be available to watch houses burn down, as per OP FIASCO. Might have to put some leave in, I remember how to drive the fire engine.

[gr4techie]

No sympathy for this lot as they should suck it up like the rest of us...

To be fair at least they have the balls to say "NO" to cutbacks, poor equipment, lack of funding and redundancies. Rather than roll over and watch their service get ripped apart like a set of yes men.

[BATCO]

A fireman told me that there are plans to recruit members of the public to cover any strike, at the rate of £150 per day per recruit. A few days training running out hoses and climbing ladders........

That sounds in line with the requirements of the Civil Contingencies Act 2004 and the preparation for several local Op FRESCOs post ZULU. However, the local authority fire and rescue services took some convincing about the need to have a workable plan that did not include calling on MOD support.

Also, in my experience the MOD and particularly the Standing Joint Commander (UK) liked to be 'forward leaning', meaning our plan was usually better and could be implemented more quickly (unions have to give a week's notice of strike), so MOD support was still generated.

I'm sure there are plenty of recently discarded military personnel out there willing and able to be firemen.

Batco

[mopardave]

I don't want to strike and I'd ask you to take what the press say with a giant pinch of salt! I don't expect any sympathy here but some of my colleagues are really getting a proper fisting. If your pensions have been adversely affected then I'm sorry for you because it's not right. We live in a country run by politicians who excel at squandering countless billions.........they allow our benefits system to be systematically raped by people who, in some cases have never contributed a penny and have no right to be here........our NHS to be exploited in the same way. We have a bloated M.O.D. that seems unable to bring projects in on time and on budget and we spend countless more billions sticking our noses into other peoples business and wasting the lives of brave young men and women.....and don't even get me started on casino bankers or a foreign aid budget that is misguided to say the least! I went through OASC Biggin Hill twice in the mid 1980's but didn't have what it takes, so I have the highest regards for those serving in the armed forces...........so come on gents, the cheap shots aren't helpful. I haven't seen a snooker table in my brigade for years and I don't have a second job. I do know there are people walking around today that wouldn't have been had it not been for the actions of me and my colleagues.
Best wishes to you all.......time to don my tin hat and head for the bunker!!!!!!!
Dave:=

[Laarbruch72]

This simply isn't a forces issue anymore, the Government contracted Serco in the last fire dispute using pooled equipment and trained personnel and they coped very well. It's a long standing contractural agreement and the days of green goddesses and forces volunteers are long gone by some years.

[smujsmith]

Mopardave,

Having spent many weeks doing scenic tours of Nottingham in a Green Godess in the 1970s. I like many of my then colleagues would never question the firemans bravery,ability nor commitment I'm sure. The fact cannot be denied, surely, that many of the troops, if they use troops, who will take up your duties should you strike, are paid less than you are, and, have no right to strike. Just being "whistful" for a second or two. The firemen that took on the Blitz in Coventry, Portsmouth and London Docks did not put their pay and pensions before their duty. Neither do British servicemen. I have always had respect for my fellow public servants in the Fire, Police and Ambulance services, but, the use of unions and strike action does now lead me to question that belief.

Smudge

[mopardave]

Smudge
lets be clear about something. I and many thousands of committed firefighters do not want to strike. I'm not getting into whether I will or I won't........I did last time and we felt bad for the armed forces personnel who stepped in for us. I understand the economic situation this country finds itself in...........and all as a result of foolish politicians who's priorities are at best questionable. I agree with most of what you say.......I truly hope armed forces pensions haven't been affected because you know what........I'm humbled by the bravery of our boys and girls in the military.......truly humbled. The way our armed forces are treated is despicable.......I have some insight......my son is a former Royal Engineer. Dare I say it, but are you not missing the point? Why do our leaders feel able to squander our money and GIVE IT AWAY to people who've never contributed a damn thing.......whether they were born here or not, and yet we can't afford pensions for people who do the right thing........no wonder we can't afford pensions. Pensions need overhauling........career averaging makes sense to me. This country is in a mess........not because of people like you and I, but because of the fools who have their hands on the levers of power and their snouts in the trough. Remember the MP's expenses scandal........at least one member of the house of lords was jailed, and then returned to her seat in the lords on release. I'd be sacked, no question about it. I am not a left wing unionist......I'm Mr middle England.......really I am. I know I've a good job, and I understand that when I cease to be of use to my employer, I'll be discarded.....be it dismissal on capability grounds or my retirement. I'm not unrealistic or unreasonable either. I'll finish by saying, please, please don't believe what you read in the press.........that was the most upsetting thing for me in the last strike........they described firefighters that I just didn't recognise.......we all had second jobs, holiday homes in Florida etc, etc, but hey, that's the propaganda machine for you, right?
I'll get my coat!
Best wishes to you all
Dave

[smujsmith]

Mopardave,

Read my post again. I really have no gripe with the lads who jump when a shout comes in. And like you, I really do despise the way the pollies use the press to defame people who only weeks before the sanctimonious b*stards are praising. I'm wondering personally how long before Dunkinsmith is set loose on military pensions, war pensions etc. having given the best part of my life to service in the RAF I feel that the Fire Service would have the same ethos as the military, which would generally be, we hate the political crap, but we will always get the job done. I promise you that it's that attitude that puts you above the detritus that makes a living in the SW1 postcode. My only concern is that when the real experts won't do their job, real people die. As an old DI would have told me "rise above it, clench buttocks and teeth and get on with it". Whatever you and your colleagues decide to do remember that the only loser in all of it is the victim of the fire. My apologies if you feel I'm opposing your rights as a trades unionist.

Smudge

[mopardave]

Smudge........I'm not really a trade unionist. I am a member of the FBU, partly because of the protection and support I'd get if I was in trouble. I believe unions are beneficial up to a point. You're right, in my "game", if we're not on the ball, or indeed working, people are at increased risk.......but I don't like it when it's used as a stick to beat us with. We went on strike 10 years ago and didn't achieve a damn thing........we lost, big time! It broke my bloody heart, and I never thought it would happen again.........when the result was announced I felt sick. I care what people think about us but the pension thing is a distraction......our politicians treat the "good" people of this country shamefully......I'd love to have a chat with our PM......just so he could make me feel better about the way middle England has been sold down the river.
Anyway, enough ranting........I'm sure we'd be able to sort it all out over a beer.........without resorting to pouring it over each others heads! Like I said, please don't believe the crap you're about to read about us in the press.
Best wishes mate
Dave

[smujsmith]

Mopardave,

When you feel like a beer name your pub, I'll buy the first round. Stay well mate and keep up your good work.

Smudge

[mopardave]

Appreciated Smudge........next time I'm in Wiltshire, you're on!
Your contributions always make for interesting reading, so keep 'em coming! Like I said once before, you guys belonged to an air force I wanted to join but wasn't good enough, and I know I'm gonna get some grief now that I've "come out" but what the hell eh.....I still have massive respect for those who served, and indeed those who serve!
Best wishes mate
Dave:ok:

[Wetstart Dryrun]

I think if building regulations stipulated the need for a 50gal resrvoir, sensor and sprinkler, we would not need a fire service and we would save the lives of thousands of dole scroungers killed by their own fag-end down the sofa.

wets

(caution - may contain irony)

[gr4techie]

until you were involved in a road traffic collision, in which case you would still need a fire service.

[mopardave]

Gr4.........they are by far, technically speaking, the most challenging jobs......especially when you consider all the safety systems in cars just waiting to bite you on the a*se!

[The B Word]

Sorry to drag this up, but it is topical at the moment.

The FBU says many firefighters will not be able to maintain fitness standards into their late 50s and this endangers the public.

Now I've done a little bit of research and found that the recommended level of fitness is going to be a VO2 Max score of 42 or above - this equates to about Level 8-6 in the beep test. However, it further states that Firefighters won't be dismissed from operational duties until they are below a VO2 Max score of 35 (about Level 6-7), but some reading has shown that those between 35-42 VO2 max will be singled out for extra phys training to help them improve. Wonder why I post this on the Mil forum? Does it sound familiar?

Yes - http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafiles/D9E0A3C7_1143_EC82_2E3E762735D95037.doc

The link above shows our current multi-stage fitness standards. Guess what? We are asking no higher level of fitness from civil fire fighters than what we ask of the RAF.

So if the military have to achieve a standard of fitness that is for all including Adminers, Trainers, Engineers, Aircrew, Lawyers, Doctors, Dentists then why, oh, why should it be so very hard for the personnel of the Fire and Rescue Service to achieve? They are supposed to be this uber-fit bunch of individuals that they'd have us all believe. Also, FTRS(HC) and FTRS(LC) can serve to 65 as long as they achieve the required fitness standard

I think the FBU are being a little economical with the truth and I don't believe that they are being asked to keep a ridiculous level of fitness as they would have you believe.

The B Word

Notes

Link to fireman's fitness standards according to FBU http://www.img.fbu.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Fitness-for-Work-IOM.pdf

Independant study into required fitness standards http://www.firefitsteeringgroup.co.uk/kevinsykes.pdf

[Hangarshuffle]

Yep it got scant news coverage, possibly deliberately but both Yeovilton and Culdrose deployed servicemen on Xmas eve, NYE and I think NYD to cover the short 6 hour odd strikes. These were the Aircraft Handler fire crews from both sections, with numbers up to about 14+ I believe. Cocked their leave up and more but when did the FBU ever give a *£ck about things like that anyway?
Think the RAF lads were involved as well, not sure on the fine detail.


FBU are kissing their jobs goodbye because they and all know that for better or worse the Fire Service will be privatised and run by God knows who within 5 to 10 years anyway.

[gr4techie]

Cocked their leave up and more but when did the FBU ever give a *£ck about things like that anyway?

When did the gov't ever give a £ck about things like that anyway? I'm sure the FBU don't want to strike but they feel they have to strike in response to the gov't exploitation.

FBU are kissing their jobs goodbye because they and all know that for better or worse the Fire Service will be privatised and run by God knows who within 5 to 10 years anyway.

What have the FBU to lose but their chains? The fire service would be worse off being "yes men" and accept any shafting given out by the the gov't (sounds familiar).

Govt: "We are not going to give you a payrise inline with inflation. Cut your pension and get rid off your best assets."

Only a £cking Idiot: "Oh ok then. Thats the way it is and who am I to question the system?"

[MPN11]

I have a family member who's a Firefighter (Special Rescue) ... she and almost everyone else on the Team are non-FBU members.

Make of that what you will.

[gr4techie]

I have a family member who's a Firefighter (Special Rescue) ... she and almost everyone else on the Team are non-FBU members.

Make of that what you will....

.... Kids of today know nothing of politics.

Some young pups at work confessed to never voting. Then the young pups wonder why politicians take no interest in them.

[Tankertrashnav]

Letter in The Times a few days ago with someone wondering why they dont bring "the troops" in to help out during the recent floods. Another one under the impression that we have a vast standing army sitting around with nothing to do (see my post #10 above).

[Biggus]

I thought that, like far too many things these days, provision of emergency cover in the event of a firefighters strike had been "outsourced" to a civil contractor (Serco rings a bell), and that the Green Goddesses had been sold off to a country in Africa.

Therefore, I was under the impression that the military should no longer be involved in a firefighters strike. Am I mistaken?

[Lima Juliet]

Biggus

You are mistaken. Look at the bottom of page 2 of this Army document to see why you've seen little about it - http://www.rfca-yorkshire.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/mediabriefscript2.pdf

LJ

PS. more here http://mfra.merseyfire.gov.uk/documents/s974/Industrial%20Action%20Planning.pdf

And here on page 3 http://www.rfca-yorkshire.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/mediabriefscript1.pdf

And here on page 3 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/266295/PSPA_review.pdf

And here at the 5th paragraph The VIEW FROM THE WATERFRONT | OnetoOne Online (http://www.onetooneonline.co.uk/operations-wing/the-view-from-the-waterfront-2/)

And a picture of some of the fire engines at Wittering on the RAF Fire Fighters' Assoc site http://www.rafanddfsa.co.uk/Witt4.jpg

[Hangarshuffle]

Biggus its been going on for months. Yeovilton dropped their fire crews down to a minimum level ages ago and have been concentrating upon supplying emergency fire cover at v short notice. Culdrose the same I am led to believe.
Had a major effect on individuals concerned as we would imagine. But the show goes on, safety cover was still supplied to both RNAS and the 2 satellites - the individual sections/people take the hit. Life in a blue one and one of the reasons I went out the door.


RNAS used to operate 5 full fire crews to keep 365 cover going. 2 at the Air Station on 24 about, 2 at the satellite in a similarish vein and 1 in a weeks training. Rotate every 5 weeks. Generally a good system for one and all, but now long gone for a variety of reasons.


LJ good links - why are the Government so keen to keep this out of the
news?


* Understand why the FBU think they have cause to go on strike, but I don't understand the vindictive manner in its organization and implementation. Like a 6 hour strike on Xmas eve meant maximum disruption for young servicemen and women, generally screwed their holiday up, made it dangerous for them to travel about after the strike in the small hours of Xmas day etc. Just a twats trick, in my civvy opinion.
The FBU and firemen have generally lost my good will since 2002. I was involved, I know how you did it and what you did and I wont forget.

[Lima Juliet]

Hangarshuffle

I don't know, but I would imagine the Govt wants to keep the strikes out of the press until the changes are 'done and dusted' to the pensions. I believe it becomes statute in April and then it is a case of 'like it or lump it'.

The RAF's professional firefighters and the Defence Fire and Rescue Service have also taken a significant hit in the same manner as your shippers at EGDY and EGDR. I was surprised to see so much on the open internet in the links above when many have been asked to minimise any talk of it. Seeing as we've been at this since Aug 13, I'm surprised more hasn't been said.

Whilst I know it is the FBU's right to dispute with industrial action, personally I have little sympathy. I believe that there are far better, more intelligent, ways of raising a grievance with your employer than the good old antiquated strike - the only losers normally being the strikers who don't get paid, 'burn their bridges' with their employer and damaging their prestigious image with the general public. Media campaigns, organised marches, engagement with opposition MPs and working with national employer's representation is a far better way. However, as the FBU's Mr Wrack is in with the other socialist bunch like Mr Crow (RMT), Tony Woodley (TGWU) and others, I suspect this is more about there being a centre-right government in power than anything else. He is a member of the so called "Awkward Squad" who want to regain the Labour Party for socialism.

As I understand it, the RAF firefighting branch is already at full stretch with many deployments and a normal 24on/24off pattern being too much to bear for some. I heard a rumour the other day that ~60% of a 35-strong fire section were on PVR/ET! Whilst it's not that hard to become a firefighter, it is the experience that the individual gains and we lose when they leave that is hard to replace.

Finally, why should our HMForces firefighters have to endure poorer pensions and have to work to age 60 for a full pension under AFPS15 when compared to the FBU's firefighters? I just don't see what makes them so special when compared to the rest of us, that have to meet similar fitness standards to age 60 (or even 65 if FTRS!) plus pass annual medicals.

LJ

[Lima Juliet]

PS. From the look of the following link, it takes 8 weeks and £7.5k to train a firefighter to a reasonable and recognised level of competency. Not bad for a £29k pa job - no wonder they are oversubscribed!

Fire Service College - (http://www.fireservicecollege.ac.uk/courses/firefighter-foundation-and-development/firefighter-development-programme/)

There is a nationally agreed salary structure for firefighters. The starting salary for a trainee firefighter is £21,157. When full competence is achieved, this rises to £28,199. Higher rates apply for overtime.
Crew manager salaries range from £29,971 (development) to £31,263 (competent) and watch manger salaries range from £31,940-£34,961.
A station manager's earning potential is between £36,365 and £40,109 plus overtime rates, subject to the officer's level of competence. Further advancement to the role of group manager and then area manager attracts salaries of between £41,881 and £53,934, depending on the level of competence.

There are two types of firefighter: whole-time and retained. Whole-time members generally work in urban areas, whereas retained firefighters tend to cover rural areas, responding to pagers when an emergency call is received. A retained firefighter must live or work within five minutes of the fire station. Most brigades offer several types of retained contract based on different levels of commitment.

Working hours typically include regular unsocial hours. Firefighters usually work in shifts - most work two day shifts followed by two night shifts and then have four days off. However, different services employ different duty systems, depending on their needs. When necessary, paid overtime is worked.

Job-sharing and part-time work are possible.

Self-employment/freelance work may be possible, depending on shift patterns, but is more likely to occur after retirement. Opportunities might include consultancy or training.


Not bad at all - where do I sign! :)

[mopardave]

Whilst I know it is the FBU's right to dispute with industrial action, personally I have little sympathy. I believe that there are far better, more intelligent, ways of raising a grievance with your employer than the good old antiquated strike

Ok LJ..........how? You know my feelings about all this madness, but tell me how you would "negotiate" with a government that has made up its mind? The same government that has swung its wrecking ball clean through the finest armed forces in the world.:ugh:

Hangarshuffle

The FBU and firemen have generally lost my good will since 2002. I was involved, I know how you did it and what you did and I wont forget.

Tell me more.......I don't recognise this........seriously, please tell me about what you experienced. I was there too and I saw nothing that I'm ashamed of. Dare I say it but it was all good natured from where I was stood. There was no intimidation of green goddess crews. Generally a cheery wave...............and no, I'm not joking or indeed losing my marbles.

[Lima Juliet]

MPD

If you had quoted the rest of my post the answer was already there:

Whilst I know it is the FBU's right to dispute with industrial action, personally I have little sympathy. I believe that there are far better, more intelligent, ways of raising a grievance with your employer than the good old antiquated strike - the only losers normally being the strikers who don't get paid, 'burn their bridges' with their employer and damaging their prestigious image with the general public. Media campaigns, organised marches, engagement with opposition MPs and working with national employer's representation is a far better way. However, as the FBU's Mr Wrack is in with the other socialist bunch like Mr Crow (RMT), Tony Woodley (TGWU) and others, I suspect this is more about there being a centre-right government in power than anything else. He is a member of the so called "Awkward Squad" who want to regain the Labour Party for socialism.

For example, a media campaign worked well for the Gurkhas - no striking! Help4Heroes, underwritten by a national newspaper, made the MoD sit up and listen to improve the medical services for our wounded - no strikes!

I really do think that the majority of firefighters don't realise what they have done - they have played right into the hands of classic socialist anti-capitalism opposition.

The dirty tricks brigade were definately at hand during Op FRESCO by trying to catch out the Goverment's resilience measures - calling strikes, "on the bus, off the bus".

Calling the recent strikes on Bonfire Night weekend, Christmas Eve and New Year's Eve when fireworks and lots of people do stupid things - I suspect this is what Hangarshuffle is getting at. Now I know that the average FBU firefighter won't have selected the dates/times but it doesn't help anyone and certainly damages the mantra of the FBU of "we always have public safety in mind".

I'm sure that we would all like a pension at age 55, but quite frankly as we're all living into our 80s and beyond I can see that it isn't affordable. Maybe if the Government started us all smoking again, stopped pushing for healthy lifestyles and winding up a lot of care under the NHS and then we could afford age 55 pensions again! :}

Anyway, I really do respect the work of Fire and Rescue Service and I believe you are well remunerated for what you do to serve. The reason why I feel the need to post my thoughts is that I want firefighters to know that they don't have the support of any of the people who I have met (even a Guardian reader!). I also cannot believe that the FBU will break the Government as they would have to cave in on all the pension changes for the rest of the Public Services (Civil Sevice, Police, HMForces, etc...) - sadly, all I can see happening is the destruction of the Fire and Rescue Service as we know it and a bunch of good guys, believing they are doing the right thing, losing wages which they cannot afford to lose.

For all of your sakes, I hope I am wrong...:sad:

Best

LJ

[LeggyMountbatten]

LJ

IMHO, the nature of the FBU industrial action has much to do with the leaders of the affiliated unions coordinating industrial action most likely to get media attention rather than action that is most likely to achieve results.

I say this because I am in a dispute where this is clearly (to me) taking place. A strike ballot with a feeble turnout (~32%) showed a clear preference for action short of a strike and weaker support for a strike. However, national leadership started with strikes which will have limited effect compared to cleaver ASOS. A re-run of the failed pensions dispute and doomed to have the same non-success unless headlines are the objective.

LM

[Onceapilot]

Some of you are missing the point. What will you think when you are "unfit" before you hit the immediate pension point?:\

OAP

[The B Word]

OAP

What like this and this?

http://www.sppa.gov.uk/Documents/Firefighters/Firefighters%20Useful%20Resources/Forms%20&%20Guides/Member/Guide%20to%20Compensation%20Scheme%202006%20NFPS%202006%20Au g%202007.pdf - firefighter's compensation

http://www.raf.mod.uk/community/getmedia/downloader.cfm?file=24D6A864-5056-A30A-099E64D02EFC3008 - armed force's compensation

It all seems pretty fair and equitable. They have even set it out in plain English:

What happens if I lose my fitness after age 55?
The 2015 scheme makes no changes to fitness or capability tests or regimes, which are a matter for employers. In the same way as the current 1992 and 2006 schemes, if it is determined that you are permanently unable, due to a medical condition, to undertake the role of a firefighter you will be given ill‐health retirement. If there is no medical reason to prevent you regaining your fitness, you will be given the opportunity to regain your fitness and the great majority of firefighters are able to do so.

Here is where this quote came from: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/267635/Firefighter_pensions_-_the_facts.pdf

It all seems perfectly above board and fair to me? :confused:

[mopardave]

For all of your sakes, I hope I am wrong...


No LJ..........I fear you are right. My time is almost up and I really do fear for my younger colleagues. We can go around in circles with this......the rights and the wrongs........but when all is said and done, the thought that anyone is going to suffer unduly, or, god forbid die as a result of this, makes me feel sick to the stomach.
All of you out there........please, please do not believe the crap that is printed about us. As a profession, we're an easy target.....second jobs etc, etc. I don't think we'll shake that image off any time soon. There are tossers in every walk of life but your average decent firefighter just wants a reasonable remuneration and pension for what can at times be a dangerous occupation.
It might be best if I take a step back from this debate now because I've no more to add other than that I am so desperately saddened by all of this.
Best wishes to all of you nonetheless.
Dave

[Lima Juliet]

And to you, MPD, enjoy the retirement that you have earned and deserve. :ok:

LJ