Piaggio Avanti

[winkwink]

Would anybody experienced in the operation of the P180 be willing to drop me a few lines on what they love/hate about it? Particularly interested in dispatch reliability, nagging problems, ease of service in Europe......

Thanks very much.

W.W.

[Savoia]

Winkwink:

Try browsing the following threads:

http://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-flying-ga-etc/251629-piaggio-p180-vs-other-turboprops.html

http://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-flying-ga-etc/294738-piaggio-avanti-rwy-less-than-1000-meters.html

http://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-flying-ga-etc/344494-piaggio-avante.html

http://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-flying-ga-etc/314728-piaggio-p180.html

http://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-flying-ga-etc/243893-looking-piaggio.html

In summary, the Avanti is a sleek, high performance (almost 100kts faster than a King Air) turboprop with a full stand-up cabin which exceeds anything in its class.

On the down side is .. external noise, operating cost and technical support.

[winkwink]

Thanks S. I'll take a look.

[LGW Vulture]

Whatever you do, don't buy one at the moment. The whole Avantair fleet potentially going onto the market will place nearly 50% of the total manufactured fleet looking for new homes. Residual values will tumble like a house of cards. Add to that Piaggio have sold something like 6 new machines in 18 months. :uhoh:

[JABAG]

Hi Guys,

I am also looking at the Avant II. I would appreciate info on the cost of Maintenance,Reliability.
As I plan to operate the aircraft in temps of up to 35 C, is the cooling system able to bring the temps down within a reasonable perod of time?

Thanks

[Savoia]

As mentioned above, there are various pros and cons associated with the Avanti. If possible take the time to read through the threads linked above.

From a passenger perspective the cabin is spacious and comfortable, fully stand-up, and can maintain near sea-level pressurisation upto FL240.

If you want to bring down the cabin temp prior to the arrival of pax then a portable air conditioning unit can be used in the cabin for 20-30 mins beforehand. Otherwise the environmental control system is highly efficient and at larger airports one can usually make the cabin comfortable during taxi.

Some Avanti news (http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ainalerts/2013-09-12/owners-ex-avantair-aircraft-see-path-forward).

[Trim Stab]

then a portable air conditioning unit can be used in the cabin for 20-30 mins beforehand

Powered by what?

[JABAG]

Is the cooling system bleed air based of and electric Freon system?

[AZAV8R]

Is the cooling system bleed air based of and electric Freon system?
It's a freon system powered by DC when both generators are online, or GPU.

[JABAG]

Thanks for the info all. Appreciated.

[Gabbz]

Actually your stats are incorrect....on the sales line....

[Moretimeoff]

At 35c better worry about oil temp hitting the red on taxi out

[AdamFrisch]

I have zero experience with the Avanti except for peeking into one at Tahoe airport a few months ago, and drooling all over the co-pilots seat. I do love the look and performance of it and it's a bit of a dream machine if I ever win the lottery. However, I do have a some experience with the old Piaggio P136 Royal Gull amphibian, as I've been chasing one for over 5 years. And although they have very little in common (except being pushers), they both share the Piaggio legacy. And I can say this: Piaggio is one of the oldest continuously operated aircraft manufacturers in the world, tracing it's roots uninterrupted back to 1884. The workmanship and engineering in the P136 airframes is rock solid and I'm sure the P180 inherited a lot of that accumulated know how and experience. So, I don't think Piaggio will be going out of business anytime soon.

[CL300]

Most of noise sensitive airports are working towards a way to ban the Piaggios. They do make an awful noise for the neighborhood. Some did succeed, some plans are coming together in Europe as well. Soon this machine will be able to fly only in Africa, and this will be a relief for a lot of persons. Get a King Air for god sake !!

[megle2]

Couldn't agree more, they are very noisy externally and not that quiet internally
Get a King Air

[Booglebox]

Get a King Air? and enjoy way less internal room, slower, lower, less range, with support from always-about-to-go-bust Beechcraft?! :confused:

[CL300]

King airs will always be there, because there is NO alternative for such short runway/payload capability. Low noise on take off, and list goes on. At the end of the day, there is no mission that an avanti would do that a King Air couldn't; as a result, i will bet that the Avanti will fade while the King Air will maintain or rise.

[AdamFrisch]

They sound different than the King Air's, but no one has yet been able to measure them being louder. On take off, the Avanti has been measured at 81.9 dBA, slightly lower than the Beechcraft King Air at 82.8 dBA. This is below FAA stage 3 noise limits which set a maximum of 89 EPNdB for take off. The square sine wave from the exhaust fools people. There are tons of airplanes more loud, so they won't be able to ban them at any airport unless they also want to ban King Air's.

[CL300]

First of all , there is no Stage 3 for turboprops..This being said, the Avanti will be banned at some airports, we are working actively to do so, this for the good of everyone under the flight path of this so called airplane.
US of A did it alreadyin some places, we are in the trail for the same.
Nothing personal, just business.:ok::E

[His dudeness]

and enjoy way less internal room, slower, lower, less range, with support from always-about-to-go-bust Beechcraft?!

Mhh, how many Piggies have been sold ? And how many KingAirs ? Guess there is a reason for that...

Even if Beech goes bust, with 5000+ KingAirs sold, there will be support.

The Avanti noise IS terrible. I remember sitting in ATP class not too far from EDDN when the first in Germany - D-IPIA - did traffic patterns. Like a circular saw on steroids....a very annoying noise, not necessarely loud but very destinctive...

BTW, the relevant Chapters of ICAO Annex 16 can to be found in here:

http://www.icao.int/Meetings/EnvironmentalWorkshops/Documents/NoiseCertificationWorkshop-2004/BIP_2_2_jb.pdf

Current small TP are to be as good or better than Chapter 10.....

[Moretimeoff]

Pilot technique can reduce the noise considerably. You get the flaps up, reduce the props to 1800 RPM, reduce torque to 2000 LBS and climb to 3000' AGL and you will get a lot less complaints before pouring the coal to go full bore.

[Teldorserious]

Two planes on the ramp a P180 and and a King Air...only on PPRUNE does someone want to fly 100kts slower, 10,000 feet lower, crawl in and out of the cabin, and fly steam guages, burning more fuel, you know, because that is what experienced knowledgable pilots on PRUNE would do.

Honestly I don't even know why I bother logging in...maybe it's to remind myself just how screwed up the industry is right now.

[silverknapper]

Ah but teldo. It doesn't do them all at the same time. 100 kts faster = huge burn. Less burn = slower.

And it won't matter anyway when your grounded due woeful support.

Maybe all these experienced people actually know better than you!:ok:

[flyboyike]

The King Air hasn't been steam gauge for some time now.

[CL300]

The issue is not on the speed of the plane nor its cabin size, it is about its noise. This design is flawed, period. The engineers did not bother. We invite Piaggio test pilots to try to demonstrate a way to fly the plane, in a more environment friendly manner. Not only they did not show up, but they dropped the ball to a poor soul, who found bitterly, that the "noise alleviating procedure" for traffic pattern, would prevent him to land commercially at the said airport.
So far, some operator are mandating their pilots to operate outside the AFM, and wrote a somewhat part B, trying to circumnavigate the outcome. But the scheme is in motion, and Piaggios WILL BE banned at some noise sensitive airport.Snowball effect will do the rest. Tip of the day : do not buy any.

If you want to fly fast get a Falcon, or a Global, or anything without props. If you want to go anywhere else for the years to come : buy a King Air

[His dudeness]

The King Air hasn't been steam gauge for some time now.

Never ever let facts get in the way of a 'good story'....

[JABAG]

The way I see this, the Avanti is a wonderful aircraft that has not lived up to its full potential.
As mentioned above, It looks good on the ramp, its got a good interior and cruises faster and higher on less fuel than the competion.

Unfortuanately, the manufacturer has not supported the aircraft. For a design this old, I would have expected a new model - the Avant III, Larger overal.
8 Seats and a small galley; 9 including the belted potty.
Improved prop design that produces a pleasant noise that is not annoying.
Props at 1800 rpm??

If this design was taken on by a legacy manufacturer, i'm sure we would see a complete diffference in the number of aircraft out there.

Any takers??
Gulfstream ??

[LASJayhawk]

The starships were loud to the people on the ground too.

New KA and P180 are both Collins Pro Line 21.

[Teldorserious]

The problem with the P180 was the buy in cost, not the noise.

They made it work by selling shares, which was found out to be a pyramid scheme.

Great design, just over priced. Plans to put some Williams on the wings are in the works, but the market being what it is, killed the SJ30, another great design, but bad company financing and pilots to slow to step up to high performance corporate aircraft has been problematic. Reminds of the Mu2. A capable aircraft, but an industry full of tards bad mouthed it.

We should be busting the speed of sound right now, but the industry is still stuck in the 1940s. Sucks.

[flyboyike]

The trouble is, Skype beats the speed of sound without even trying.

[LASJayhawk]

Sticking F44's on it won't work, there will not be enough rudder to get it certified.

[Teldorserious]

LASJayhawk -

I suggest you crack open a book on aerodynamics or get an MEII - you don't have asymetrical thrust issues on the P180 and certainly they will mount jet engines closer to the airframe - Not that they would need to. Can't remember the last time I stood on a rudder in a jet, but hey, airline guys in Airbus's that have figured out a way to step on a pedal and take the tail off...so depending on the retard they figure might be flying these things...you might be right.

[stilton]

Do you never land in crosswinds TD :confused:

[silverknapper]

He hasn't worked out how to put a crosswind on Flight Sim yet Stilton.

[His dudeness]

And speaking of crosswinds, that Piggie I heard doing the patterns was grounded with a bend wing for quite a while after havíng suffered a crosswind landing going wrong...

[LASJayhawk]

Telford...
Beech tried the same thing on a B200 (BB-4 IIRC) Hung a pair of jets on the aft fuselage.

Lose an engine at V2 and not enough rudder to keep it straight at that low a speed.......

[His dudeness]

Hung a pair of jets on the aft fuselage

You sure ? Only image I have ever seen of a B200 with Jets was one where the Jets were mounted where the PT6s are....on top of the wing.

Have a look here: (PD290)

Beechcraft Super King Air - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beechcraft_Super_King_Air)

Heres a pic:

beech pd290 | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/13121445@N03/3644311496/)

[LASJayhawk]

An I sure? Heck I'm not sure what I had for breakfast.

That's BB-1 in the picture, I'm still thinking they tried the aft fuselage on BB-4 but could quite be wrong.... The plane was still in the boneyard at the factory as of a few years ago, I'll check with one of my factory buddies and have him see what's still there.

[Teldorserious]

LAS -

Can't speak to their attempt at a retrofit, but the P180 makes sense. Williams are light, it should work. No doubt some engineering, but if you are making the case that you need more rudder in an asymetrical yaw with a jet vs a Tprop then you need to get some multi training under your belt.

To me it's seems a no brainer, but who knows maybe it's not in the wing or w/b but other factors such as the AF can only go so fast.

[Steak&Kidney_Pie]

Teldorserious, I take it you are an American with your attitude to retards, sorry pilots! If only everyone was a ****-hot as you.....:ugh:

Silverknapper sums it up adequately.

CL300's comments on noise are quite true. Heard one in LFMD yesterday, a long time before I saw it.....then again Teldorserious wasn't flying it, so that is the probable cause.

[Teldorserious]

Steak - Yeah, you are right...why would we want a plane that flies higher and faster because of a better design?

Must be junk right? So let's just all sit down in the low 20s getting slammed in the weather, because you know, that's just the kind of low speed, high drag aircraft, you and your crew can fly with out getting too far ahead of you.

This is a ridiculous thread. We should be talking about going Mach 2 instead of talking about flying the slowest turboprops made based on 1960s technology. Boggles.

[CL300]

you can think about going mach 2, but on the question of turboprops, there is no competition: a bit of reading
Beechcraft King Air 350i Turboprop: Performance (http://www.beechcraft.com/beechcraft/king_air_350i/performance.aspx)

[Teldorserious]

Well CL, the King Air boss tends to want the cabin. Never worked for that type, but I get it.

A mil for a 500 or 3.5 for a 350. It's a no brainer if you know how to keep costs down, but some peeps are Beech buyers to the end. Some outfits just hate jets, maybe the image.. and they sometimes migrate to the most expensive Tprop they can find, to the annoyance, or not of the pilot that has to spend his whole career banging through the weather in the 20s.

[LASJayhawk]

Tel. There is an issue with the drag from a dead jet engine that plays into it.

You do know the P180 has a rather severe pitch instability at higher altitudes?

The right circumstances can create a pitch porpoise so severe all the pilot can do is hang on to the yoke for dear life and get low and slow to stop it. Happened to 3 that I know of ( as of about 7 years ago). What started the problem was under tensioned bridle cables on the pitch servo, but once it starts only low and slow stops it.

P180 is an Italian sports car, KA is a station wagon.

Oh and thanks for continuing to point out my lack of education. I was not aware I had sent you a resume. :p

[silverknapper]

Why do you keep banging on about battling around in the 20's. the 250 and 350 go straight to F350. The only people in the 20's are trying to get 400 TAS in their avanti. Burning 1000lb per hr.

[drag king]

Why do you keep banging on about battling around in the 20's. the 250 and 350 go straight to F350.

As a former B200-driver and with no intentions to enter this willy-waggling contest, I very much doubt it happens THAT often and THAT quickly. In EU at least. RVSM restrictions and implications spring to mind...

FL280 was the best we could aim for.

DK :*

[time2leave]

2008 350i MNPS/RVSM straight to 33-350 all the time:D

[silverknapper]

I very much doubt it happens THAT often and THAT quickly

As a former driver it may be best to research the facts DK.

You are talking from inexperience. And talking rubbish.

[drag king]

As a former driver it may be best to research the facts DK.

You are talking from inexperience. And talking rubbish.

Probably you're right but at least I got a snapshot of how constructive a debate can be with aces like you...

So long

DK:hmm:

[AdamFrisch]

Show me the link where the Avanti measures higher noise levels than a King Air. Just because people don't like they way it sounds, doesn't make it louder. That's audio racism..:E

[Teldorserious]

Adam - You are correct.

This forum is full of guys that purport to be experts, many times just regurgitating what they heard elsewhere. I haven't heard the P180 getting any noise abatement fines. It's got a 'tone' though, that I think can be deal with my pilot technique in the use of props.

[westhawk]

Santa Monica Airport (KSMO) noise management apparently disagrees. The P180 is on the banned aircraft list (http://www.smgov.net/departments/airport/content.aspx?id=8697). Admittedly, the people's republic of SMO is heavily influenced by a bunch of hypocritical burned out hippie radical nut jobs with a NIMBY mindset, but their method of noise measurement is professionally administered and routinely calibrated. I had to work pretty hard to keep my 2 decades long record of no noise-o-meter busts intact while flying aircraft ranging from C-210s to Hawkers.

Though they gave it a good effort, the pilots trying to develop a repeatable and safe method of complying with the noise limits at SMO in the P180 were ultimately unsuccessful in their endeavor. Unlike most jets, they busted the noise limits on approach rather than departure.

[CL300]

Westhawk is correct, and on the grounds of SMO; this thing will be banned in cascade...Approach is indeed more a concern, and it last longer over noise sensitive population. This loinks to my first advice : DO NOT BUY A P180, would it be I or II ....or anything else...

[Brian Abraham]

Isn't it ironic that the person talking of the forum having people purporting to be experts, when he holds out himself to be such, yet holds absolutely no aviation qualifications. The only pilot tequnique he has with props is perhaps on the stage with puppets.

[Teldorserious]

Only on PPRUNE do pilots think planes landing flight idle make more noise then full blast on departure.

The DB sensors at SMO are on the East Side where the houses are.

The P180 has a sideline DB of 81, slightly under a King Air, and well under stage 3 of 89 dbs.
The problem is the tone of the P180, that according to Piaggio is caused by 5 blades hitting the exhaust gasses and not encumbered by a wing like most planes. Something about a Square sine wave pitch, very annoying, like a 185 with props full.

(See Brian, you learned something today - or is that possible with your broken DNA?)

[EDMJ]

The P180 is on the banned aircraft list.

That list is absolutely hilarious! What a shame that it'll never be possible to bring over a [the world's only airworthy] Sea Vixen, a "North American B-17" or a Hansa Jet [of which none have been flying for years].

Notwithstanding the fact that the Avanti is Italian (and where turbulent airflow from airframe parts in front of the propellers definitely also contribute to its noise level), what is happening in SMO has already been part of daily life in Europe for decades, and to some extent also proves how blissfully ignorant and oblivious US GA manufacturers have been for years as far as noise is concerned (and to some extent still are, cf. e.g. a Cirrus SR22....)

[con-pilot]

Only on PPRuNe do pilots think planes landing flight idle make more noise then full blast on departure.


I do believe that the noise issue under discussion is, the noise that is made by the aircraft in question on the approach, not the actual landing. One is not at flight idle on a stabilized, standard approach.

[westhawk]

Just for the record: I happen to like the P180!

But facts are facts and I'm only addressing what I know to be true. I was based at KSMO for some time as a charter pilot and flew there regularly when I was based elsewhere. I checked my noise reading EVERY time. I also had occasion to consult with other operators to help them remain noise compliant at SMO.

The fact that the P180 exceeds the 95.0 *SENEL noise limit at KSMO during the approach phase really isn't debatable. It does. There are actually 4 noise sensors placed around the airport area. While approaching rwy 21, aircraft pass above a sensor located approximately 1,500' NE of the runway. This is the same sensor which records noise levels for rwy 03 departures. There is another sensor located along the extended centerline of rwy 21, also approximately, 1,500' from the runway. Two other sensors are located within the airport area but are not used for noise enforcement.

It's unfortunate that misinformed individuals with few facts to back up their ill-conceived opinions feel the need to engage on this or any other site. People who actually have training, education, real-world aviation experience and are willing/able to do their research before posting find these maladjusted antagonists to be somewhat distracting and occasionally, even a mild irritation. But most of all a pity. What could have happened to them to make them behave in this way? It's a funny old world...

* Single Event Noise Exposure Level

SENEL is a time weighted noise measurement. It might best be described as a curve which represents sound pressure levels (depicted vertically) plotted along a (horizontal) time line. By calculating the time weighted average of the noise event, one approximates the SENEL. The actual methodology is somewhat more involved, but the idea is to express noise exposure as a function of both noise intensity and time exposure. This method differs somewhat from another airport noise measurement methodology used at some airports and known as CNEL (community noise exposure level)

A more comprehensive explanation of SENEL methodology can be obtained by speaking to the KSMO noise program specialist by phone or in person. This is well worth the time if one wishes to better understand how noise signatures are recorded at SMO. I found this helpful in understanding why various noise mitigation flying techniques were more or less effective in producing quiet (but still safe) arrival and departures in highly noise sensitive airport environments. Gulfstream developed a KSMO NADP for the G-IV/450 that works very well at SMO and I remember a period of time when NetJets were doing likewise with some of their fleet types. The Avantair folks made a valiant attempt to do the same with the P180, but with less success on arrival. IIRC, they WERE able to achieve some compliant arrivals but didn't think the technique used would be repeatable and safe for their line pilots in all reasonably expected wx conditions. (a lower drag, higher speed approach)

westhawk

[westhawk]

EDMJ:

Just so you know, special historic aircraft DO visit SMO from time to time by prior arrangement. I had the pleasure of riding with a friend on a B-25 he was flying for a historic foundation some years ago. I think the 118 SENEL he turned that day was pretty impressive for just two radials. I LOVE that kind of airport noise!

westhawk

[AZAV8R]

Good posts westhawk! :ok:

You're missed elsewhere on the internet.... ;)

[Brian Abraham]

Yep I learned something today, confirmation provided by westhawk that Teldorserious has not a clue. Good old Oz DNA, heh.

[con-pilot]

I live about five miles due north of a very busy GA airport, just off the extended centerline of the main runway, 17-35. So I hear most aircraft that land. I can tell when it is a P180 when I hear one is landing, by hearing it and hearing it, and really hearing it as it passes overhead.

By using just my hearing, it sounds about twice as loud as a Kingair 200-350 and a lot nosier than a Turbo-Commander. Also, I have spent many a day in Aspen sitting around the airport waiting for passengers and have watched them takeoff in the summer time.

Damn it seems like they use a lot of runway both landing and taking off, a lot of runway.

westhawk, did you ever operate a P-180 out of ASE? I'm kind of curious on what kind of load and range you had in the summertime.

[flyboyike]

It's unfortunate that misinformed individuals with few facts to back up their ill-conceived opinions feel the need to engage on this or any other site.


If it weren't for the misinformed, the internet would be pretty empty.

[westhawk]

did you ever operate a P-180 out of ASE?

No con-pilot, I haven't. But like you, I've spent many an hour at ASE doing the same thing. The P180 does appear to climb at a pretty flat looking angle compared to most of the jets and turboprops I've watched take off there. But then I don't suppose we looked all that lively in the Westwind either! But I know our Lear 60 departures felt and looked good from the front seats! One 60 owner whose jet we managed used to request max effort climbs just because he liked it. Well, let's just say we were happy to accommodate his wishes...

You're missed

Thanks AZAV8R, I hope all is well.

If it weren't for the misinformed, the internet would be pretty empty.

Truer words never spoken!

westhawk

[con-pilot]

But I know our Lear 60 departures felt and looked good from the front seats! One 60 owner whose jet we managed used to request max effort climbs just because he liked it. Well, let's just say we were happy to accommodate his wishes...


Some what the same here. Since the mid 70s I've operated Jet Commanders (don't ask, still have bad memories of that :p), Westwind II (not all that bad), Sabre 40 (pretty good really), Sabre 65 (great in the winter), Falcon 50 & 50EX and the Falcon 900EX.

Only in the Falcons did I feel really comfortable. In the winter, early in the mornings on really cold and clear day, When the airport first opens, you can go non-stop from ASE to London in a Falcon 900EX. Winter or summer there is really no problems with the Falcons, even a straight 50.

My former boss loved the deck angle on the climb out of ASE in the Falcon 50 and the 900. So did I. ;)

[formulaben]

Teldorserious: "Only on PPRUNE do pilots think planes landing flight idle make more noise then full blast on departure." Perhaps because it is based in (regulatory) fact, and not opinion? :rolleyes:

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC%2036-1H%20Chg%201.pdf

[CL300]

on take off, engines are the noisiest, on landing configuration is.

This being said, this is the issue with the P180. Even with the AFM recommendation for "low noise", it does not meet local constraints.
And on top of it, this increases the landing distance so much that they do not meet public transport factorization.
Most of airports today are restricting night ops to Stage 3 minus 5...and even it does exist on props, there is a list of unfriendly aircrafts...

This is why stage 4 emerged, more stringent, yes, but showing only one number...less interpretation...

[megle2]

Notice another King Air door has fallen off in flight
The Avanti doesn't seem to have this problem

[AdamFrisch]

My old Commander 520 with the geared props and augmentor tubes was notoriously loud. Never set off the audio alarms at SMO, but I did at Long Beach, which has much higher tolerances. This is from an airport that regularly sees old noisy jets and military fighters. I have the letter to prove it. So these noise level measuring things are obviously not very reliable or consistent. Besides, the SMO banned list is it seems purely based on perception, not actual audio levels.

[westhawk]

Adam: It seems apparent you really haven't given this matter the thought it deserves prior to posting.

If you don't want to believe the noise measuring equipment is consistent and based upon actual measured sound pressure levels, there's nothing anyone can tell you to change your mind. Live with your perceptions, facts be damned!

But for professional pilots who rely upon understanding how such systems work in order to fly without being in violation of local noise ordinances, that brand of ignorance simply won't cut it. Pilots who don't necessarily fly for a living can operate in a professional manner too, provided they trouble themselves to learn to do so. I know this to be true because I've given flight instruction to several such individuals. And some who couldn't be troubled as well, but not for very long. (Won't waste my efforts on the willfully ignorant for long)

BTW, LBG (http://www.lgb.org/information/airfield/abatement.asp) noise limits differ according to the time of day. Santa Monica's do not. SNA (http://www.ocair.com/reportspublications/AccessNoise/noiselimits.pdf) has rather stringent noise limits during night hours as well. Airliners can make it out of SNA and LBG during day and evening hours without busting the noise limits, but cannot during nighttime hours.

But just to steer this back to the thread subject...

People who want to buy a P180 should buy a P180! (pretty and fast)

People who want to buy a King Air should buy a King Air! (Solid short field performer and known quantity)

People who want to buy an airplane should do thorough research on performance capabilities, limitations and operational/maintenance requirements prior to selecting a particular type. This analysis should be tailored to the proposed mission requirements. If the potential buyer lacks the personal expertise to make a well informed choice on their own, then they should hire a well qualified and experienced disinterested third party to do an analysis and advise them. This investment of research work or money will often pay for itself many times over in saved expenses and buyers remorse down the road.

westhawk

[AdamFrisch]

I've been a bit of a torch carrier for these just because they look so friggin cool and have such spectacular performance. Plus, I'm half Italian.. There's a lot of hearsay and misinformation out there about these. Everyone kept saying they break, they're unreliable, they can't be serviced, they're finicky Italian etc. So I thought I'd find out the truth and go directly to the source - an owner. Easier said than done, as it turned out. Not that many of them around owned by someone who actually flies it himself. The service centers were no use at all - none of them returned my emails when I asked if I could be put in contact with an operator. Either that's because they don't want the truth, or their clients didn't want to know, or they're just lazy.

Finally I got a hold of an owner in NorCal by sending a letter. He's a very successful Silicon Valley founder/owner of a giant computer business. We're talking biiig company here. I agreed to keep his real name out of it out of courtesy. Here are his answers to my questions:




How long have you owned the Piaggio?

Bought it new in Spring of 2007.

Does it meet book numbers?

Yes for speeds. I find it hard to meet runway length numbers. I use/prefer longer runways than minimum.

Is it a high or low workload single pilot airplane in your opinion?

Realizing I transitioned from a Cessna Stationair and a Bonanza, I think its moderate. I believe though in an emergency it's slightly more than a jet as we have props and power to manage, but its not a problem once you are familiar with the systems.

Was it a big step up from your previous plane?

Yes but I knew nothing about turboprops, pressurization, Collins avionics, high altitude flying, weather radar, etc.

How do you like flying it? How does it compare to other planes you've flown?

Love flying it. Its fun, fast, and “cool”. Two things make it different from other planes. First, when you fly into a cloud, the nose noticeably drops as the forward wing is small enough to be sensitive to the reduction in air molecules in the cloud. Second, when you go to land, you actually push forward on the yoke. The props, which become a barn door when power is removed, are actually behind the center of gravity. When their drag increases the nose pitches up. You need to “anti flare’ to keep the nose from going too high.

Anything else you'd care to add about the plane in general would be greatly appreciated.

When I got my plane new, I had lots of infant mortality/growing pains type issues. When I asked if this was normal or did I have a lemon, I was told for any other turboprop, yes I had a lemon. But the Piaggio has all the system sophistication of a mid-size biz jet and for that, no, the problems I was experiencing were in the range of normal. Everything settled out after about 6 months.

Has it been reliable? Good dispatch?

Yes by and large, after the early problems, the plane has been very reliable. Problems I have had have related to brakes, and door seals mainly. I have had 2 different flap motors go out too.

How have you found servicing the plane? Do you use a Piaggio service center or just a regular shop?

I have a mechanic assigned to my plane by the outfit that manages it, but most maintenance is done by a service center. I am in northern California and I use Mather Aviation in Sacramento.

How is the pricing on parts and service from Piaggio? Would you say it's more expensive than average, or about the same?

I have no real knowledge about other plane’s parts pricing but if I had to guess, yes things seem expensive. Also, its not such a high volume plane, that should also lend itself to price gouging by suppliers.

How are parts lead times and accessibility? Does it get shipped from Genoa, or is there stock in the US when something needs replacing?

I think most things come from the states. I don’t recall anything coming directly from Genoa.

What would you say your average annaul/phase/100hr inspection costs have been?

I still need to research this so I will send my other answers now and get back to you on this. I thought it would have been easier to extract from the reports I am given but, alas, its buried in the details.

Heard there's a 12 year overhaul on the landing gear that's expensive. Have you done this and would you be able to indicate the cost of doing it?

Mine is coming up. I have heard it will be very expensive though I have conveniently forgotten the range. Sorry.

Edit: This item is about $100K. The new Evo will have 15 year intervals, and the O/H will cost less as they're moving away from Dowty Rotol. It is expected that the new landing gear will be available as an STC for the older models for those that want to upgrade. This new landing gear will also be anti-skid capable. They could never make anti-skid work on the old gear.

Do you feel Piaggio USA supports the fleet well?

I have been happy. I know the Director of Customer Support personally as we went thru Flight Safety training together and he is a great guy that cares.

Are there any weaknesses in the design from a servicing or repair standpoint? Something that fails more often than not?

Brakes have been a problem though a new design is about to be released on the Avanti3 that I expect to be STC’d for the older fleet. Hoping to eventually get Anti-lock/Anti-Skid too!

Anything else you care to add to service/maintenance would again be greatly appreciated.

Other than I believe in not skimping on the maintenance, I still maintain my plane as if it was in charter, with all the inspections, and pre-flight checks by the mechanic.

Also, anything to do with Rockwell Collins is ridiculously expensive. I am expecting a mulit-hundred thousand dollar quote to get ADS-B in/out where I know for a few thousand dollars I’ll get it on some portable device like a Stratus.




So there you have it, warts and all. Hope this can shed some light on these spectacular airplanes. The gear overhaul at $100K seems like a big item, but you save that easily on fuel compared to a jet over the 12 years. Plus, most jets and TP's have gear overhaul times that are much shorter and cost beaucoup as well. The King Air has a 5 or 6 year gear than'll cost you $35K. The Avanti will burn 40-50% less than any jet, knot for knot. It will probably burn 20% less than any other PT6 turboprop knot for knot.

[hingey]

Adam,

Nice work.

However the gear overhaul is actually more in the range of 250,000EUR here in Europe.

h

[Ian Corrigible]

Second that, interesting insight.

To hingey's point, C&DD (https://www.conklindd.com) put the gear O/H cost at $292k. Not sure whether the 6,000 cycle limit on the gear was also raised when the 10 yr TBO was improved to 12 yrs back in 2013.

FWIW, there was some good coverage of Piaggio's recent travails and future plans during this year's PAS:

Piaggio adjusts focus towards defense (http://aviationweek.com/paris-air-show-2015/piaggio-adjusts-focus-towards-defense)
Piaggio’s Logli charts course for turnaround (http://aviationweek.com/paris-air-show-2015/piaggio-s-logli-charts-course-turnaround)
Piaggio looks to bounce back with Evo and Hammerhead (https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/business-aviation/2015-06-15/piaggio-looks-bounce-back-evo-and-hammerhead)

I/C

[AdamFrisch]

However the gear overhaul is actually more in the range of 250,000EUR here in Europe.

Yeah, that quote I had was from a pretty old article. I've heard the new Maghnani landing gear should be a lot cheaper to overhaul. Hopefully it can be installed via STC on the older models.

You don't want to have to do with anything from Dowty. They take you to the cleaners financially, whether it's gear systems or props.

[migg48]

We just purchased a Piaggio Evo. Taking delivery shortly; I'm going to Flight Safety shortly and looking forward to it.

I understand that the 'bad noise' from the props has been addressed in the Evo with new, slower turning props. Time will tell, but I am hopeful. The gear has been changed, as others pointed out. The new gear includes anti skid, which is nice.

I've flown a lot of different airplanes, and I'm really looking forward to this one. 400 knots on 600 pp/h is impressive. Even if it turns out to be 700+, it's much better than our King Air 200 w/Blackhawk motors.

We'll see.....

Anyone been through Flight Safety Piaggio school?

Thanks,

M.D. Moore

[formulaben]

Have you checked to insure that Flightsafety has a program for the Evo yet? It wasn't so long ago they didn't even have one, even though Piaggio was actively trying to sell the airplane with training included (even though Flightsafety didn't have a program together!)...a little birdie told me that Flightsafety didn't have the legal capability to do initial training for a period of time a while back. Not sure if it was staffing or what but it was confirmed. Make sure you're not buying an airplane that you can't insure. If Flightsafety can't help you Donald Sims is the expert and has been very helpful with any inquiries I have had in the past.

[AdamFrisch]

I have it in writing from an operator I know, straight from the FAA, that the gear overhaul for part 91 on US register is not mandatory. This is a huge savings for part 91 operators of this aircraft:


Andy,

I am going to assume they are operating Part 91. AS such they are only recommended to follow the manufacturer’s chapter 5 . This also matches the FAA legal interpretations. If it were in chapter 4 they might also be required to overhaul, but in this case they are not required, only recommended.

It would be different if they were air carrier , 135 or 121.


John Thomas

Aviation Safety Inspector/Airworthiness

Will Rogers FSDO, SW-15

Ph. 405-951-4220, Fax 405-951-4282

[ksjc]

I don't have an opinion one way or another about the Piaggio Avanti, I'm sure it's a fine plane. I'm one those guys who always looks up when hearing airplane noise. Yesterday, while in Pacific Grove, CA and about 3 miles from KMRY I heard a much louder than normal turboprop departing (high) overhead and before I glanced up knew what it was. Those who say the Piaggio is only louder during the approach are wrong. "Loudest" perhaps but still quite raucous during climb out.

[DALMD-11]

Any news on whatever happened to all of the ex-Avantair P-180's ?

[Ian Corrigible]

A quick sample of 45 of Avantair's 56 P.180s shows that they have ended up at 32 different operators, including 19 LLCs. 38 of the aircraft remained in the USA, with one heading to Bulgaria and another to Italy. Five of the aircraft disappeared from the registry (possibly after being parted out).

Four of the aircraft ended up with SWAS (http://www.swaviation.net).

I/C

[AdamFrisch]

Due to Avantair's shifty practices of borrowing parts between planes etc to keep them airworthy, the FAA revoked the Airworthiness Certificate on all the ex-Avantair P180's until they'd had a thorough review by a DAR. I think most, if not all, are over that hurdle now, but that could account for the 5 that never made it back into service.

[DALMD-11]

Any word on whatever happened to S. Santos and company ?

[Ian Corrigible]

Any word on whatever happened to S. Santos

Now selling diet supplements (www.kegenix.com).

[AdamFrisch]

Spoke to an Avanti operator today. They have 4 of them, but selling the oldest one. It’s actually for sale for under a million, which is pretty cheap. Yes, I did dream about it, but no, still way too much for me.

They have it on a part 135 here in the US. He said the customers love it, as it’s almost stand cabin up and super quiet. They much prefer it, even to some jets. I asked about maintenance etc and he said the plane doesn’t really break down anymore than anything else, but when it does the US service centers only have stocked parts for it about 50% of the time. So, he said sometimes you have to wait for a part to get shipped from Italy, which takes longer. On average he said it’s about 5 days to get a part. He also said parts are about 15-20% more expensive than on a their CJ. Also, he said that it doesn’t have great range, due to thin wings. He said it’s a 1000nm plane, maybe 1100nm if pushed.

I still want one. Bad.

[avionimc]

Thought the Avanti range (https://www.bjtonline.com/business-jet-news/piaggio-avanti) would be more. Guess it depends on how many pax and FL.
The production of the Avanti Evo has moved to a brand new factory at Albenga Airport in 2016, with new service solutions (http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/business-aviation/2017-05-21/piaggio-rolls-out-new-customer-service-solutions-avantis) for parts and support, even for the older models (eight U.S. service centers) (http://www.piaggioaerospace.it/en/media/archivio/news/2016-11-04-piaggio-aerospace-launches-new-initatives-to-support-existing-fleet).
Indeed, that's a dream airplane. Let us know if you buy that one:ok:
https://www.avbuyer.com/uploads/media/Chart%20A%20p98.jpg

[dmark1]

First of all , there is no Stage 3 for turboprops..This being said, the Avanti will be banned at some airports, we are working actively to do so, this for the good of everyone under the flight path of this so called airplane.
US of A did it alreadyin some places, we are in the trail for the same.
Nothing personal, just business.:ok::E


Sorry to resurrect this thread but rarely have I read a more asinine ill informed comment from a so called "pilot".

[dmark1]

The issue is not on the speed of the plane nor its cabin size, it is about its noise. This design is flawed, period. The engineers did not bother. We invite Piaggio test pilots to try to demonstrate a way to fly the plane, in a more environment friendly manner. Not only they did not show up, but they dropped the ball to a poor soul, who found bitterly, that the "noise alleviating procedure" for traffic pattern, would prevent him to land commercially at the said airport.
So far, some operator are mandating their pilots to operate outside the AFM, and wrote a somewhat part B, trying to circumnavigate the outcome. But the scheme is in motion, and Piaggios WILL BE banned at some noise sensitive airport.Snowball effect will do the rest. Tip of the day : do not buy any.

If you want to fly fast get a Falcon, or a Global, or anything without props. If you want to go anywhere else for the years to come : buy a King Air


7 years later and we are still waiting on that "ban" LOL.

[eyealess]

WinkWink.

I started brokering exec jets back in 2016. A lot of our clients who previously flew in Lears and Citations absolutely love the Piaggio. It’s our go to aircraft for European charters. The feedback from them is how quiet and spacious the cabin is. The problem we have is getting hold of them. There’s not a huge amount in comparison to say King Airs or Citations

Having had the pleasure in the past of flying right hand seat in the Avanti, I can only say positive things about the aircraft. Speed, alt, economy all great for Jet like characteristics.

As has been mentioned here previously regards the manufacturer itself. Piaggio are looking for another buyer/investor but obvs at the moment things are somewhat difficult. Technical dispatch has never caused us or me a problem either in the flying sense or chartering sense. In fact it’s been100%.

Noise issues do not seem a major problem here in Europe although I see this is causing a rather long debate on here with our US friends.

Carry out due diligence regards the undercarriage. There is an upgrade for older Avantis to be fitted with this upgrade which extends TBO massively. To purchase one without will cost serious money going forward.

Happy hunting.

[dmark1]

Thanks! I am purchasing SN 1149 which is currently undergoing a gear overhaul so I won't at least have to worry about that for 12 years. New engines too.

All for less than the cost of a decent Mustang (which was my previous airplane). I absolutely love everything about this ship. FlightSafety next month then I am going to fly the snot out it!

[dmark1]

7 years later and still waiting on that ban.....LOL

[dmark1]

Tel. There is an issue with the drag from a dead jet engine that plays into it.

You do know the P180 has a rather severe pitch instability at higher altitudes?

The right circumstances can create a pitch porpoise so severe all the pilot can do is hang on to the yoke for dear life and get low and slow to stop it. Happened to 3 that I know of ( as of about 7 years ago). What started the problem was under tensioned bridle cables on the pitch servo, but once it starts only low and slow stops it.

P180 is an Italian sports car, KA is a station wagon.

Oh and thanks for continuing to point out my lack of education. I was not aware I had sent you a resume. :p
Don't you love it when people that have never flown the airplane talk about flight characteristics that don't exist. No such problem exists on the Piaggio, but here I am fighting a 7 year old fight. LOL

[EvaDestruction]

Sorry to resurrect this thread but rarely have I read a more asinine ill informed comment from a so called "pilot".

I must agree.

As to the Avanti, I never got to fly one but wanted to badly. I put a resume in with Avantair just a few months before they collapsed.

They do have the unique sound, but what performance at altitude.

[avionimc]

Piaggio has produced 246 Avantis, of which 213 are in service, with 96 in Europe, 95 in the Americas, 18 in Asia-Pacific, and four in Africa and the Middle East, according to the company. The Avanti with the most flight hours – more than 11,000 – is still operating in Canada.

https://www.flightglobal.com/business-aviation/piaggio-marks-a-million-flight-hours-for-avanti/141425.article

Thank you Alessandro Mazzoni for designing the best airplane in its class.

https://youtu.be/Ikk1XrBiPTQ

[Jim Moscardini]

I’d like to thank you all for this thread. My wife is thinking of upgrading from our MU2 to a jet, and if I’m going to down that path I’m damn sure going to research the Avanti first. However, it’s been almost impossible to find real & current owner/pilot experiences to draw information from. Those reports here have been exceptionally informative. I invite (Hell - I implore!) anyone with first hand Avanti experience to contact me directly.

BTW: As we already own and enjoy an MU2, we’re obviously sooooo concerned with external noise (NOT! - lol)

Thanks again - Jim

[formulaben]

Something I'd be very mindful of prior to purchasing is the customer support aspect. Mitsubishi has been excellent in supporting the MU-2 despite not being in production for decades; it's possible you might be conditioned to expect the same going forward. Piaggio on the other hand has had complaints of parts availability for many years...your fun new bird could be a very expensive and embarrassing paperweight if you can't fly it due to lack of parts support/availability.

[Jim Moscardini]

Thanks Formula. The "fantastic" support of the MU2 is kinda an urban legend of late. My bird is mostly maintained by one of the three remaining service centers for the MU2. Last year I was lucky enough to get my hands on the "last" attitude gyro in stock and the "last" wing tip fuel gauge in stock. These quite essential components may have the next victim grounded for a while until a new/overhauled/salvage unit is found for his bird. This gave me great pause. Despite the current corporate situation, at least the Avanti is still being manufactured and any bird I might acquire would be at least 30 years younger than our Mits. Parts availability has to be evaluated along with reliability though. The posts here from actual owners/pilots don't seem to imply that it's an unusually unreliable bird. That said, I have no doubt that the Avanti would be more of a risk than a Phenom 100 of the same age, but it's also much more of a plane. I'm strictly a Part 91 guy now, so a little down time just means I won't be flying for a while; I don't have a "Bottom Line" to worry about. However, the dearth of recent owner experience information available is making those trade off evaluations difficult. That's why I was so happy to find this thread today. Keep those cards and letters coming, kids!

[megan]

Jim Moscardini (https://www.pprune.org/members/509640-jim-moscardini), you need at least ten posts before you can use the sites messaging service. Post your email addy here if you wish replies.
https://www.pprune.org/images/avatars/th_new.gif

[Asturias56]

I’d like to thank you all for this thread. My wife is thinking of upgrading from our MU2 to a jet, and if I’m going to down that path I’m damn sure going to research the Avanti first. However, it’s been almost impossible to find real & current owner/pilot experiences to draw information from. Those reports here have been exceptionally informative. I invite (Hell - I implore!) anyone with first hand Avanti experience to contact me directly.

BTW: As we already own and enjoy an MU2, we’re obviously sooooo concerned with external noise (NOT! - lol)

Thanks again - Jim


Jim

I'm pretty sure you read "Flying" but its worth going back and looking at the experiences of Dick Karl when he upgraded to a jet a few years back. He bought, with some very good advice, a small jet - after a birdstrike he found he couldn't source a new front spar at any reasonable price and had to write it off........... and buy something else...

[Jim Moscardini]

Thanks Megan. The site won’t let me post my email address until I have ten posts, so I’ll apologize up front: I’ll have to make some potentially unnecessary posts.

[Jim Moscardini]

Astutias: is your warning about the Avanti or upgrading to a jet in general. I’ve heard a similar story about someone who’d bought a Premier. Is the the same one? I’ll try to find the article. Thanks for weighing in.

[Asturias56]

Jim

Not the Avanti as such - it 's upgrading in general to a much more expensive piece of kit and how careful you should be - even with expert advice

IIRC Dick Karl did a number of articles - I think you can get some of them here

https://www.flyingmag.com/authors/dick-karl/20/

Start on page 2 with his November 2017 article and work forward....

For what its worth I've only seen the Avanti in S Italy - it looks great and clearly has a fairly spectacular performance level but it is not common and repairs and spares might be tough - especially a few years down the line

Good luck!

[Jim Moscardini]

Thanks again Asturias. Copy all. I did find a decent article in there, but like so many others, it was just a review of the airplane. All of those are quite complimentary. What I’m lacking is the real world experience of current Avanti owners and owner/pilots. I need that info before I can intelligently compare “life with an Avanti” to something much more vanilla - say, a Phenom 100 maybe.

[formulaben]

I see a lot of them parked/mothballed around the country...that should tell you something.

[Asturias56]

The Owners Forum seems to be moribund and the Face book page last post was 2018 I think

[Chabee99]

Hi!
I'm making a M&B calculator Excel program for my university studies, and I'm in need for arm data for the Piaggio. I need arm for BEM and the main fuel mass, in order to calculate moment. I've looked through the EASA TCDS, but I couldn't find them. Can someone help me?

[megan]

You can download a manual here

https://pdfcoffee.com/download/p180-airplane-flight-manualpdf-3-pdf-free.html

[Central Scrutinizer]

Hi!
I'm making a M&B calculator Excel program for my university studies, and I'm in need for arm data for the Piaggio. I need arm for BEM and the main fuel mass, in order to calculate moment. I've looked through the EASA TCDS, but I couldn't find them. Can someone help me?

These are for a P180 Avanti II

BEM Arm = 212.10 in
Fuel Arm = 248.00 in