Cheesed off! but perhaps for the better good in the long run?!

[RyanRs]

So, got my wings a few months ago, went through two training schools at two different airfields as my instructor quit two thirds into my training. Learnt solely in a cessna 152 and since gaining my PPL i have flown yet more 152's and a 150 Aerobat a few times. These aircraft are owned by my training school and therefore procedures did not change after gaining my licence! (it just got £30 an hour cheaper to fly).

Anyway, so in my Local airfield (where i originally started my PPL) there is a PA28-181 Archer 2 owned by a private owner who runs a group of about 28 members. My previous instructor is the owners friend and trusted 'check-ride' chief which was a bonus to me as it meant i could get on the group quite easily. So, got up in the PA28, did 55 minutes of PFL, stalls, 2 touch'n'go's, cockpit familiarisation, pre-flight checks etc etc Also in this hour i had to learn the tech logs, payment methods, removing and stowing the AC cover, filling the oil, A Garmin GMA340 audio panel and any other things that are 'extra' to that particular group/AC. I then did 3 T'n'G's solo and then got checked off and given membership to the group.

So, book up my first flight as PIC with a friend joing me for the journey. Just a simple trip to lydd for a coffee then back to base with some sight seeing on the way. Soon as i got approx 15 miles away from base i noticed something wrong with the radio. It was full of noise, could barely hear incoming RT's and while transmitting i could hear myself very distorted. This was incredibly distracting and was painful on the ears as i could not squelch out the hiss/crackle but had to have the Vol up to hear any incoming RX! I get to Lydd who know i am having issues but due to my PPR call, knew my intentions to visit. At Lydd the chief flying examiner had a look at the radio, preformed a few tests and confirmed there was a fault -he suggested ariel.
So, flew back to base -unfortunately now due to arrive 20 minutes late, radio still terrible. I land the AC and park it back in in its location neatly. It was about 50'c + in the cockpit and both me and my pax was desperate to get out! i did my shut-down procedure, switches off, control locks in. got out, did tech log, re-fitted cover and left the A/C in good condition afaik.
So, two days later i get an email from the owner telling me he is not happy!!
Due to a few factors ie, 50'c+ heat in the cockpit, Lack of experience with the AC (2.5 hours vs 60 in a cessna), the stress of the radio issues, being Late on my first time returning the thing and finally trying so hard to leave a good impression on the owner, it led me to make a few mistakes!
Basically i :-
Left the seatbelts untidy -something i never usually do!
Left four switches on (but not the master) -American switches, i turned them off, but can remember looking back that i turned them back on again as i exited the cockpit after looking them and thinking they was actually in the 'On' position!
Left the throttle friction tight -however i had not used this at all!
Flew an hour on just the Left tank, however i did forget to change tanks after 30min but i did select Right tank before arriving in the ATZ of base, i re-selected Left tank after shutdown.
Left the driver door unlocked (never had to lock a door in 60hours of training -habbit!)
And i left the excess straps on the A/C cover loose and not tucked in -This i was not told about in my check ride as the instructor told me to go to the ATM for his payment whilst he re-fitted the cover!!

As for the radio, the owner claims i had it set up wrong (its got two radio boxes and a garmin control panel) and thats why i was having issues, however the CFE at Lydd is trained in garmin products and even he said there was a problem. Also, i know for a fact that the radio has been temperamental as it recently went to Southend for repairing!

Anyway, all this led me to get banned from ever using it again and i feel its bloody unfair! its also put me right off flying -especially now as i am stuck with club planes, expensive yearly memberships and silly 28 day check-ride rules!

However. I am now thinking that there may be light at the end of the tunnel. I have landed a new job which pays quite well , in the 50k region to make it easier to explain my situation as i know some people on here consider good pay as triple that. But what i am considering is purchasing a PA28 with a small group of friends and running my own small non-profit group. I have done an amount of research and i see i can expect to cough up approx £10,000 per year for the a/c with approc 40~50 hours flying included in that. However, i dont know how up-to-date the info is to which i read my research from.

I am looking at buying a PA28-180R Arrow with IFR gear. The reason behind owning a Complex + IFR kitted plane is that i can add these ratings to my PPL without having to pay extra to hire an adequately equip aircraft. Also it will mean more economical flying and less on the ground time due to bad VFR conditions.

This way I have My own AC! that i can take pride in and enjoy without ever feeling like i'm under constant scrutiny. I would like to progress to an ATPL eventually and i feel this could be the best and poss cheapest way in the long run to build them hours and ratings up! (obv within limits of SEP).

What's everyone's opinions on this anyway? Am i a messy pup and deserve to be banned from that PA28? or was this unfair as i feel it is? And how about ownership? do i sound like i could be on to something? or am i really showing my lack of inexperience here?

Thanks for the honest opinions and sorry for the essay!
Ryan

[AdamFrisch]

They sound insane, quite frankly. I'd run away from this group as soon as possible. Whoever bans a low time pilot from flying a plane because they forgot to put the belts tidy or had adjusted the throttle friction too hard? 28 member group, as well? Gimme a break.

I'm an aircraft owner and I can't recommend it enough. Best thing ever. Buy your own plane so you don't have to deal with all these high vis west police mentality people. Let them have their stupid little group with 28 members and a crap plane.

[maxred]

Agree with Adam, and welcome to the world of aviation:rolleyes:

Committees, clubs, groups, CFI's, massive egos, you will meet them all.....

What has that little escapade taught you???

The same as in any business, anything run by a committee, a tin pot dictator, or a CFI, run a mile:ok:

[150commuter]

Frankly I think you're well out of this one. Though some people have had good experiences with small ones and they may be genuine cost sharing arrangements I've always been a bit dubious about non-ownership "groups" as you're always playing with another kid's ball that he can take away whenever he feels like it. This just sounds like the 28 people this chap happens to rent his aeroplane to and by way of a bonus gets to play "the man" with. 28 is IMO far too big to be a genuine group.

If you can find an established not too large and well run co-ownership group at an airfield within reach that might be a better bet at this stage than starting your own but make sure it's one where every co-owner has a genuine vote and voice in how it's run. Some groups are "run" by one person- often the founder- who ends up making all the decisions and imposing his will and "standards" on everyone else.
One way to tell this is if the group insists that you meet a number of other members before they'll accept you or expect you to commit to them that's a good sign. If you only get to meet one or possibly two people who speak for group that's not a good sign.
Before you commit to a particular group be prepared to keep on renting for a bit longer- the insurers of group aircraft sometimes ask for a certain number of P1 hours in any case- to give yourself time to have a good look round. Rushing into joining a flying group is about as good an idea as rushing into a marriage- though it's rather easier to get out!!

I rented for about two years before joining my present group and that was eighteen years ago so it seems to have worked out well and my impression is that in general PPLs who belong to groups are far more likely to keep flying and too many newish PPLs end up quitting flying far too soon. There is a degree of mutual support that can be very useful. .

The LAA produce a useful little book on group flying and it's well worth getting hold of a copy.

[Echo Romeo]

I agree with previous posters, you're better off banned. I rented a lovely Robin DR500 from a chap along with 2 others, it was fantastic aircraft and arrangement, whilst it lasted, and we never had a single problem.

Very unfortunately he sold it and I was left high and dry. Like you I couldn't face going back to a flying school and renting 152's or PA28's "not that theres anything wrong with them". So, I bought my own aircraft and although the bank balance as undoubtedly suffered it has reinvigorated my flying. There really is nothing better than being king in your own aeroplane.

Go for it :ok:

[gasax]

Why do I get the feeling we are only being told half the story?

50 deg C in the cockpit? Of course, silly 28 day checks, not balancing the fuel burn, trying so hard to leave a good impression - by leaving the door unlocked and the cover partially secured.

And to sort this out you are going to buy an IFR equipped aircraft?

I suspect the group are pretty happy to see the back of you if any of this is true.

[piperboy84]

If you can find a way financially to own your own aircraft or be the boss of a group that is the only way to fly (pun intended).


There is not a better feeling in the world while being on short final to your home field knowing that that in 5 minutes you are gonna be on the couch with your feet up drinking tea and catching the opening jingle to Corrie. And all you gotta do to make this happen is land, taxi up and into the hanger, swing her round pointing back out ready for next time, hit the radio master, pull the mixture then master and mags, out the door and into the motor while lighting up a fag and straight hame, no bollocking about with covers, tie downs, pushing or pulling the machine about, paperwork, or practicing origami on the seatbelts or charts or any other bollox if you don't want too.

Sorted !!!!

[Sir George Cayley]

I thought there was a rule limiting groups to a max of 25 members?

SGC

[hoodie]

I thought there was a rule limiting groups to a max of 25 members?

SGC

It's a maximum of 20 - Article 269 of the ANO (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP393.pdf) refers:


Public transport and aerial work – exceptions – jointly owned aircraft
269 (1) A flight is a private flight if the aircraft falls within paragraph (2) and the only valuable consideration given or promised for the flight or the purpose of the flight falls within paragraph (3).

(2) An aircraft falls within this paragraph if it is owned:

(a) jointly by persons (each of whom is a natural person) who each hold not less than a 5% beneficial share and:
(i) the aircraft is registered in the names of all the joint owners; or
(ii) the aircraft is registered in the name or names of one or more of the joint
owners as trustee or trustees for all the joint owners and written notice has
been given to the CAA of the names of all the persons beneficially entitled
to a share in the aircraft; or

(b) by a company in the name of which the aircraft is registered and the registered shareholders of which (each of whom is a natural person) each hold not less than 5% of the shares in that company.



..taxi up and into the hanger, swing her round pointing back out ready for next time, hit the radio master, pull the mixture then master and mags

:uhoh: :eek:

[mary meagher]

Taxy into the hangar?

Well, if there are any other aircraft in that hangar you better not contemplate taxying out again.....blowing dirt over all the other planes is not the way to make friends.....

[piperboy84]

Well, if there are any other aircraft in that hangar you better not contemplate taxying out again.....blowing dirt over all the other planes is not the way to make friends.....

None, just the combine harvester, baler and a knackered old Landy, I sometimes leave the back door open then swing the plane round at a higher than normal RPM which does a better (and easier) job than using a broom.:ok:

[hoodie]

Not worried about FOD from loose articles and propwash, then? I would be.

[Echo Romeo]

None, just the combine harvester, baler and a knackered old Landy, I sometimes leave the back door open then swing the plane round at a higher than normal RPM which does a better (and easier) job than using a broom.

:uhoh::D. Castoring tail wheel?

[foxmoth]

It's a maximum of 20 - Article 269 of the ANO refers:

This is if it is an aircraft share group where you are a part owner - you can have as many as you like in a group like the one here, the only thing is that you are essentially renting out the aircraft, so unlike a proper share group that IS limited to 20, you need to maintain the aircraft to public transport standards..

[RyanRs]

Thanks for all the replies everyone. Glad to hear that the owner has gone ott with this and im not just an imbecile in denial! I really do like the idea of owning my own AC, i know its not going to be as simple as buying a car of a similar value, but i feel it will be far more rewarding!

The problem i have with joining a group is the costs from what i have seen on most of them. Ie.. £XXXX.00 to join, then £70~£120 per month then £60~£100 ph + annual contribution! this is too much, its going to take a few years of flying to even get the cost of all that down to normal PPL hire rates ! The bonus in the group i joined was that there was no initial fee, just a hour checkride with the owners trusted FI/CFE. The costs then are £135 ph wet and thats it. I believe this to be fairly reasonable. The nearest best price i could find locally was a PA28 warrior 2 160 at headcorn priced @ £150 wet + £85 annual membership, but they also use the 28 day rule :/

Must say to gasax - I am 100% not the sort of person who tells one side of a story so as to make myself feel better by means of obtaining comforting replies and comments. I am very open to constructive critism and i believe that telling the full and honest story as truthful as i can will help me realise if its infact me thats in the wrong! And im not afraid to admit if im wrong! 50'c was an estimate of how hot it felt, i am a fan of hot weather, when im outside sunbathing! iirc the forecast was 28'c in the shade on that day so imagine being in a pa28 cockpit with nothing more than that little perspex window to let air in! obviously in the air, we had cabin vents open and it was quite cool but on the ground taxing back, well put it this way, we was both drenched in sweat and was out of juice to drink!
As for the cover, it was correctly re-fitted, neatly too. The mistake i made was not tucking in the little bits of excess strap after tightening the buckles -we are taking 5~6" of excess btw, not something silly like a meter or so. But anyway, as i said before, i was unaware i even had to do this! it would have taken me 2 seconds to do if i knew and i wouldn't have had a single problem with doing it. Jeez! i am human and we all make mistakes. As for locking the door.. like i said, 60 hours of 'Dont lock the door' while training! this was the first time i had ever took out a non -flying school owned AC!

Btw, what's the harm in future-proofing by buying an IFR equip AC?

[foxmoth]

The problem i have with joining a group is the costs from what i have seen on most of them. Ie.. £XXXX.00 to join, then £70~£120 per month then £60~£100 ph + annual contribution! this is too much,

And you think owning by YOURSELF will be cheaper??? Not sure where you get the annual contribution from - a well run group will rarely need this unless something has gone wrong - and if you own it yourself you will of course have to fund anything that goes wrong completely out of your OWN funds, at least in a share group that gets split between you. Remember, in a share group, no one is taking a profit, so any excess gets ploughed back into the group. If you are thinking that you can hire it out at below club prices and get your own flying cheap, just remember that a club will probably be getting double the usage that you do, thus bringing down its hourly costs, I suspect you will find you are actually paying almost as much as the club whilst giving others cheaper flying - what you WILL get out of it is that the aircraft is under YOUR control, so you can kick out people who do not look after it properly - people that do not turn switches off, balance the fuel and put the covers on properly, etc.:hmm:

[maxred]

will find you are actually paying almost as much as the club whilst giving others cheaper flying - what you WILL get out of it is that the aircraft is under YOUR control, so you can kick out people who do not look after it properly - people that do not turn switches off, balance the fuel and put th

Tut, tut Foxmoth........

[piperboy84]

Everything you'll ever need for 11k (currently)

Avid Flyer Speedwing Mk4 with Jabiru 2200. Group A Permit Aircraft, like Kitfox | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Avid-Flyer-Speedwing-Mk4-with-Jabiru-2200-Group-A-Permit-Aircraft-like-Kitfox-/190877744900?pt=UK_CPV_Aviation_SM&hash=item2c71333f04)

[foxmoth]

Tut, tut Foxmoth........

Sorry - could not resist!!:}

Hopefully, if he does go this route he will remember and actually be someone that is a little more patient with his renters.

[RyanRs]

I would be looking to joint purchase with 5 or 6 friends, some with licenses and a couple who would like a license. I was then considering perhaps allowing a few more people who can join the group in a similar way to the group i was in basically just charging a small joining fee + a competitive hr rate. The idea being to cover as much of the yearly costs as possible. As i mentioned before, i would like something alike a PA28 so i can travel with 2 pax or 3 lightweight pax to destinations abroad. I get 10 days off in my job every 5th week so it would be nice to be able to perhaps spend a few days away from home in my own AC visiting some of Europe perhaps and clocking up some good experience! Obviously asking a flight school if i can have an AC for 5 days is unlikely to go down well, plus the local school charges a minimum of 3 hours per day regardless of if you do as many or not. So, if i was to get caught somewhere in bad weather for a day, id still get a 3 hour bill without even leaving the ground!

My attitude toward someone who left the AC in a slightly less than perfect condition? - well 1st time, nothing.. perhaps a kind reminder to everyone to remember to put the seatbelt back neatly etc. If it happened again, then i would probably just have a quiet polite word. No harm done. If after the 3rd time in a short period then i would probably get the hump. Its the same as when im in the gym! I always return my equipment ready for the next person to use, but some people leave the weights etc wherever they fall -ignoring the signs on the walls 'Put your weights back after use!'.. The gym does not instantly ban them for it though!

[foxmoth]

I would be looking to joint purchase with 5 or 6 friends, some with licenses and a couple who would like a license. I was then considering perhaps allowing a few more people who can join the group in a similar way to the group i was in basically just charging a small joining fee + a competitive hr rate.

Well, if you do JUST the first bit you save some money because you do not have to maintain the aircraft to PT standards, when you have high utilisation it does not make a lot of difference, but IIRC (sure someone who is more up to date than me with the requirements will let you know), on PT standards you need the 50 hr check doing on date even if you have not flown, whearas otherwise you can leave it until you get that utilisation. Important in the winter especially, can make it not worth hiring it out to non share owners.
Also, you will STILL need to have some sort of system in place for those of you that ARE part owners to ensure monthly bills are still paid even if no one hires it (tech aircraft, dud wx etc.) this will probably end up initially much like the groups monthly payments you have talked about that you do not seem to like, though hopefully over time you would build up a surplus for these periods.

[RTN11]

Lets break these issues down a bit more

Left the seatbelts untidy -something i never usually do!

Not the end of the world if this was the only thing, but it wasn't, and it's not nice to leave everything a mess. If the next guy only wants to fly solo he has to tidy and secure all the other harnesses, which is a pain for him.

Left four switches on (but not the master) -American switches, i turned them off, but can remember looking back that i turned them back on again as i exited the cockpit after looking them and thinking they was actually in the 'On' position!

Which four? If it was avionics, then I can see them getting annoyed at you, as leaving these on during engine shutdown doesn't do the radios any good (perhaps people doing this over and over has contributed to the radio problems?). Also, if the next guy jumps in and flicks the master on, whatever those four switches are will also come on. Say it's Pitot heat, again not good to drain the battery in this way. I feel they have a pretty valid point on this one, as not leaving things switched off and safe shows that you haven't followed any checklist or procedure here, which could be an indication of other aspects of your flying.

Left the throttle friction tight -however i had not used this at all!

On a PA28 you really don't use this, so I don't see their point here, nonsense and nit picking I guess.

Flew an hour on just the Left tank, however i did forget to change tanks after 30min but i did select Right tank before arriving in the ATZ of base, i re-selected Left tank after shutdown.

This could be a big deal, as it is rather against the POH advice. I can see how it happened if all you've ever flown is a cessna, but you need to work checking the fuel into your work cycle, particularly if planning to buy an arrow.

Left the driver door unlocked (never had to lock a door in 60hours of training -habbit!)

Probably the fault of whoever checked you out/introduced you to the group, all flying clubs leave aircraft unlocked, many groups do too, so why would you expect any different. Just like most clubs leave the fuel cock on when owners may want this off.

And i left the excess straps on the A/C cover loose and not tucked in -This i was not told about in my check ride as the instructor told me to go to the ATM for his payment whilst he re-fitted the cover!!

This is only really a big deal if it was windy, as the excess will flap around and bash the side of the aircraft. What was the wind that day? Did you park it into wind?

All in all, I'd say a ban was pretty harsh, and they should've just raised these points on how the aircraft should be left and give you another go. If this was truly a one off as you've outlined then it certainly seems unfair, perhaps best to move on.

Why on earth would you want to buy an Arrow? It's just a heavier more expensive warrior, and you can get some very nice IFR kit in a warrior which is far cheaper per hour, and per mile flown.

[foxmoth]

This is only really a big deal if it was windy, as the excess will flap around and bash the side of the aircraft. What was the wind that day? Did you park it into wind?

I would actually count this a bit more of an issue - might not be windy when you leave it, but do you know when it will be flown next? Even if booked the next day that booking can be cancelled and it is left with loose straps to thrash around if it does get windy - do agree, ban on the first occasion is a bit harsh, but it is the owners aircraft so he can run it as he wants.

[tecman]

You might decide to put aside the indignation and man-up to some shortcomings on the day. The deficit of airmanship and etiquette might be partly explained by inexperience and unfamiliarity; one constructive approach might be to put this on the record and request a more comprehensive briefing and/or check. In effect, you could start thinking more like an owner and less like a renter. This would also give you the opportunity to demonstrate and see if you can reproduce the radio issues, and to clarify whether it's a real technical issue or finger trouble.

I've rented and owned many aircraft and, when renting, have always tried to go the extra distance in operating and returning the aircraft. Similarly, when others have rented my aircraft, I've left them in no doubt from the beginning what my (high) expectations are. People come from many different training and life backgrounds and a good first briefing is important. In your case, the group rep might have recognized that your briefing was not perfect and offered you another or you could, as I've suggested, have asked for a second one.

At the end of it all though, there is no excuse for leaving the aircraft in less than the best possible state. You've explained some mitigating circumstances but part of being a pilot is to learn to put all those aside and do the right thing by the aircraft, owners and subsequent pilots. Operating aircraft in hostile conditions with sometimes needy passengers does help clarify what your priorities as PIC should be. Chalk it up to experience.

I wish you luck in resolving the situation, and rest assured that being a good group member will stand you in good stead as a future owner.

[Ebbie 2003]

As an owner who rents out his Archer II (I have the only four place non-complex single for rent in the country!) I can understand how someone may get annoyed if the airplane is left "in a state".

We head only once side of the story.

The seat belt thing does annoy me - but annoyance should not be reason to ban some one.

My real pet peeves are - avionics left on (yes it can cause thousand of dollars of damage), carb heat in the on position - carb heat not a PA28-181 landing item so why it on (it bypasses the air filter so someone hovered up all the crap on the taxiway into my engine - more potential thousands of dollars of damage), writing in the tech log that the oil was at less than 6qts - if it was, why the **** did you start the engine? - potentially tens of thousands of dollars of damage and one dead renter).

The straps thing I understand - here we have 20mph winds all day every day - a loose strap on the cover slapping against the paint will wear a hole in it pdq - but there should have been a warning.

Leaving the airplane tidy is simply good manners - it being hot is not an excuse - here in the tropics I tell people that they get a free sauna at the start and end of each flight - 50C sounds about right.

A bit harsh banning someone for one incident and on their first use - should have given a warning and if it happened again then ban them or I find the $100 lineman fee to tidy the plane seems to focus the mind.

The guy and his group sounds dodgy in one respect, the numbers - the 20 person maximum was around when I was in the UK - in practical terms 12 seem the realistic maximum if the group is 'flyers' you'd struggle to get a decent booking ( a fly away) once or twice a year with over 20.

[Mariner9]

The problem i have with joining a group is the costs from what i have seen on most of them. Ie.. £XXXX.00 to join, then £70~£120 per month then £60~£100 ph + annual contribution! this is too much.


You should consider why group costs are as they are.

An IFR aircraft is bl00dy expensive to own and operate, and sharing fixed costs such as Annuals, insurance, hangarage etc makes sense especially if you wont be flying much (Quite frankly, you wont be able to afford much flying if you are stumping up the entire cost of owning an IFR aircraft on a £50K salary)

Remember the old adage - "If it flies, floats, or f&cks, its cheaper to rent"

[Ebbie 2003]

Mariner - my Archer II is IFR and the cost of getting parts here makes the UK look like a bargain.

That said mine has cost far less to operate that I expected - with some rentals the marginal cost of my personal flying works out at 50 cents an hour - even with a five figure insurance premium ( there is a monopoly insurer!) and renting at prices below typical UK levels - the benefit of being the only provider I suppose.

I do know that I was fortunate to get a "good one", old, not pretty but beautifully rigged, OK avionics (no NARCO) and a new engine - so it's a gamble.

Write off the capital and look to be spending GBP20,000 and work out how you'll do that and if you can live with it great - if not a group is a good idea, even if you start it yourself.

[foxmoth]

Write off the capital add that onto your 50c/ hour and, unless that forms part of what you charge for renting, the flying is not quite so cheap!:rolleyes:

[AberdeenAngus]

Perhaps a more reasonable punishment would have been to buy a round at the AGM.......ouch:uhoh:

[RyanRs]

RTN11 (http://www.pprune.org/members/246664-rtn11) Left four switches on (but not the master) -American switches, i turned them off, but can remember looking back that i turned them back on again as i exited the cockpit after looking them and thinking they was actually in the 'On' position!
Which four? If it was avionics, then I can see them getting annoyed at you, as leaving these on during engine shutdown doesn't do the radios any good (perhaps people doing this over and over has contributed to the radio problems?). Also, if the next guy jumps in and flicks the master on, whatever those four switches are will also come on. Say it's Pitot heat, again not good to drain the battery in this way. I feel they have a pretty valid point on this one, as not leaving things switched off and safe shows that you haven't followed any checklist or procedure here, which could be an indication of other aspects of your flying.The switches i left on were the four next to each other -Fuel pump, beacon, pitot, landing light (Iirc thats what they were?) But as i said, i switched everything off as part of my shutdown checks, i always follow my checklist booklet. It was after getting in and out of the AC a few times checking everything was done right that i spotted the switches again and thought i had left them on as they are american style switches -something i have never come across before. Without looking properly i guess you could say, i flicked them all back On again thinking i was doing the opposite! Proof of this was in the pitot switch as it was a hot day and i have only ever had to use this once while training so its usually a switch that i never touch. Avionics was all off.

Btw, i have never had to fit an AC cover before neither! and as i was never shown how to re-fit it, just shown how to take it off and fold it in such a manner that its easy to go back on, i was pretty pleased with myself that i got the thing on neatly! Knew nothing about tucking the straps!
I did email the guy back, apologising multiple times, i tried to explain my self and what happened and even suggested that perhaps i could do another hour with the Instructor or even himself to learn the correct procedures and how to use the intercom equipment. I was very polite in my email however that was over a week and half ago now and i have had no response! It would have been nice for him to even reply, i left my phone number in the email too.

Btw, i understand why group costs are what they are, never said i didnt. however when your 1/16 share is £3k to join + £80pm +£80 ph for a PA28 then i dont see why. Thats £48000 in joining fees and £15350 pa in monthly memberships! They burn 34LPH of fuel @£2 pL = £68 ph so that leaves £12 ph towards what? times that by 16 members flying 10 hours a year each = £2000. So the group would be taking in a total of £17350 a year for an AC that was likely easily paid off in the first £48k joining fee! From most of what i researched, a single owner doing 50 hours flying a year in a PA28 and storing it outside at the airfield would be looking at spending £10k pa total! This is where i would split the share between 5~6 friends thus dividing a £40k purchase price evenly at £6500 each, and then the anual costs (est 6500~7000 pa) would cost 6 people £95 pm each. then the cost PH = whatever the cost of fuel! Also like i mentioned before, if i was to add say 3~4 outsiders to rent the AC at a competitive price, then i could get the monthly costs from £95 pm down to £40~£50 pm. however, i have taken on-board what people have mentioned about higher CofE standards.

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi RyanRs,

Do please forgive me for saying this. You have sixty hours on one dreary spam can and are now contemplating buying another even drearier and probably clapped out spam can, (which is all you can buy for the sort of money you will be able to afford).

May I suggest before you do this you gain some wider experience. Try flying a wider range of aircraft before you decide to buy. French aircraft of the same generation as the Pa28s and C152s were much nicer to fly. Some of the newer VLAs are brilliant and why not try a couple of vintage aircraft, perhaps an Auster or a Tiger Moth?

These may change your ideas about what to buy into.

Good luck!

Regards,

BP.

[RyanRs]

Thanks BroomstickPilot ill take that in mind. Tbh i was just looking for something thats cheap(er) overall that does the job. Something that can happily get me out and about and exploring europe with atleast 2 px with me. It does cross my mind if a tourer is the kind of AC i really want as having done some aerobatics and coming from a long history of performing extreme sports, i am a bit of an adrenalin junkie and i would love to someday own an aeros plane. however as we all know, don't run before you can walk! I just thought that something like a PA28 + Europe is going to really help me pack on some experience. I do have a Mauritian friend however who is always raving on about french AC, may have to try a few and see. Just hope they build there GA AC better than they build there cars!! :eek:

[maxred]

Sensible advice Broomstick, check out everything prior to rushing in.

This thread made me laugh slightly, in remembering a rental I had a year or so back. I have always been fortunate in owning my own aircraft, and the only person I can get cheesed off with is myself!

However. I took a club aircraft out, the usual clapped out thing, mines was in for maitenance, and on our return the LED lights for the nav and radios began to fail. Once inside the CTZ, of course, all radios failed, with us in a hold, and positioned number 4 in traffic for landing. (A big busy airport). As you can imagine, things got quite exciting. It all worked out well, and after a safe landing, and a lot of help from the controllers, I logged in the tech book, the issue, and grounded the aircraft for avionics inspection.

A subsequent e mail, and telephone call from owner, and the club CFI, kicked my backside for noting the event in the tech log - quote 'costing us money because the aeroplane is grounded', and 'the procedure is give me a call before putting anything in the tech log'. Not a 'sorry about that are you all right', or 'thanks for sorting that issue out and getting it back on the ground', no, my arse got kicked.

Never rented that particular aeroplane again:ugh:

[Mariner9]

This is where i would split the share between 5~6 friends thus dividing a £40k purchase price evenly at £6500 each


Thats the normal way it is done. Don't think of it as a "Joining fee" as you have mentioned above, it isn't, it is the capital purchase of a share. Remember it will not be "your" aircraft anymore, it will be jointly owned.

the anual costs (est 6500~7000 pa) would cost 6 people £95 pm each.

That figure seems really low. Have you thought about annual insurance, hangarage/tiedown costs, and the killer - annual maintenance/inspection, which could easily be £10K alone? How much research have you done in this regard?


then the cost PH = whatever the cost of fuel!


What about the cost of 50 hour inspections? What about a replacement engine/propellor fund? If you don't build these into your hourly rate then your group is going to face bills they hadn't budgeted for every 50 hours, and a £20K engine replacement bill at some point.

[RyanRs]

Well the research i have done is purely what i could piece together on here + goggle. I also have a friend who is a mechanic at headcorn who has got me prices. I have included insurance, hanger, 50 hour, radio, annual, CofE in that. the only thing i haven't accounted for is the 10 year respray (£5k) and the 2000 hour rebuild. Tbh, i have built a drag racing car from scratch in my garage over the past 7 years so im pretty good with mechanics and engines etc (100% on my technical PPL with only moderate revision ;D), so i was half considering perhaps getting myself qualified as an aircraft mechanic -depending on costs and time-frame. If this is allowed i could imagine this to cut my repair costs down by a lot?!

These are the prices i got:-
Fifty Hour / six month inspection £320 (+vat).
One Hundred & Fifty Hour inspection £560 (+vat).
Annual inspection £1,600 (+vat).
Radio Annual £198 (+vat).
Rectification work £45 / hour (+vat).


So, forgetting about any rectification work that comes to £3220 (inclusive 20% vat). I have accounted for insurance at £2000 per year , for storage (outside) im guessing from what i have heard -£200 pm. totals £7620. 40 hours fuel x £68 ph = £2720 giving a total of £10340. + any rectification work.



Do these sound like realistic figures?

[foxmoth]

Btw, i understand why group costs are what they are, never said i didnt. however when your 1/16 share is £3k to join + £80pm +£80 ph for a PA28 then i dont see why. Thats £48000 in joining fees and £15350 pa in monthly memberships! They burn 34LPH of fuel @£2 pL = £68 ph so that leaves £12 ph towards what? times that by 16 members flying 10 hours a year each = £2000.

Mariner has said much of it, the £3k is YOUR share of the purchase price - yes, this has been paid, but the guy selling will want his bit back - or do you want 1/16th of an aircraft for free, but I think a 1/16th share would normally be a LOT less than £80pm - this will normally cover all the standing costs - Hangarage/Insurance/Annual and in a group of 16 I would expect it to be about £40 pm, so with an £80ph charge you are already cheaper for a months flying than most flying clubs, fly more and the hourly rate drops more. £12ph towards what? Well remember there are things like 50hr checks, so that needs factoring in, and any well run group will have a contingency/engine fund (any idea what a new engine costs - think that most light aircraft engines are lifed at 2-2,500 hours and you will not have a lot left from your £12ph), if you factor BOTH the engine fund AND the hourly maintainance in £80ph is probably a little on the low side for a Pa28 and this is born out looking at a few group rates. Also note, if the group IS making more than it needs then 1/16th of that excess is YOURS, it does not go into any one persons pocket. If you think you are going to run one yourself for less than this I think you are in for a shock!
Try it with an LAA type that you can do a lot of the work yourself, put it on a farm strip and THEN you will start to get your costs down.

[foxmoth]

Do these sound like realistic figures?

the only thing i haven't accounted for is the 10 year respray (£5k) and the 2000 hour rebuild.

The figures sound reasonable, but you DO need to include the engine replacement/rebuild costs, as I point out in my last post, that is much of where your extra £12ph goes. Also, if you hangar it you will not need the respray, it will also keep the whole aircraft in better condition - worth seeing if the extra will save in the long run.

I note, If you then price this for your 16 member group you actually get to about £45 pm each, not far off what I quoted, and I did not include 50/150 hr checks in that as I consider them as part of the hourly charge (how many you do in a year will depend on usage) - add the engine fund on to your fuel and again, talking £80ph

[DeeCee]

I was at Lydd and heard you on the radio that day. You did the right thing and asked for advice. Your checkout sounds a little rushed and it may have contributed to the problem somewhere (I don't know how, but the CFI didn't find it did he?).

Personally I would chalk all that down to experience and spend a little more time gathering knowledge before contemplating running a group. You will find some in the group will be co-operative and others will not. Why not join a group and gain experience before committing? Lydd manage several groups - come down and have a chat about the details before contemplating trying to run one.

[G-F0RC3]

Getting a ban does seem a bit harsh, but you did make some really silly mistakes. I mean, flying on one tank for such a long time suggest you weren't doing any FREDA (or similar) checks enroute? The aircraft would be out of balance with such a disparity in fuel between the left and right tanks. If I got in that to go flying I would be a bit annoyed too... :(

But anyway, I think the most important point is that you learn from your mistakes and put it all down to experience. Everybody makes mistakes from time to time. :ok:

[RyanRs]

DeeCee - what is the CFE's name down lydd? he did tell me he was on here, Steve rings a bell? iirc his last name was the same name as the road he lives in, i remember him telling me somethign like that?
I would love to join a group in Lydd, a very well equipt airport and excellent runway however i live in north kent and it would take me over an hour to drive there :/

G-F0RC3 - I did do regular and frequent FREDA checks, but as if i was in a cessna. 'Fuel - On and sufficient' It didn't cross my mind to change tanks as im not used to doing it. I can almost certainly say that had the radio not been screaming in my ears for the entire flight, i would have had much more concentration on vital differences that i need to check that aren't in the cessna. I did check tanks when down Lydd, i could see there was enough left for the return journey in the Left tank and i did notice it was less full than the right, however i remembered back to when i quizzed my instructor about this back in training when a Cessna was full one side and 4/5 full the other and he said it was because of un-even ground. I thought this about the PA28 and didnt think any more about it. A mistake that i will NEVER forget again! I used to forget carb heat checks as part of my FREDA, until the day that me and my instructor was up in cold moist air and suddenly from nowhere the engine started spluttering.. My instructor went straight for the carb heat without a second delay and resolved the problem. Since then i have NEVER forgotten a carb heat / icing check!

[rich_g85]

As the others say, a ban seems harsh for a first offence. But learn from it and move on.

Next time - "Fuel: On, BALANCED and sufficient. Pump on/off, pressure green."

[Mariner9]

A simple aide-memoire I use to ensure I remember to change tanks is to use the minute hand on my watch - from 00 to 29mins past the hour (minute hand on the right side) I use the right tank, then 30 to 59 mins run on the left. Just incorporate a glance at your watch on the FREDA check to see which tank you should be on.

[AberdeenAngus]

I likes that :ok:

[thing]

Re posters who would have been annoyed with the electrical switches being left on and the radios etc. I'm not condoning what the OP did but part of the pre start check is switches and avionics off. I often get into aircraft in various states of 'switched on ness' from the last flight. Part of your job as commander is to ensure that it's in a state of 'switched off ness' before you crank it up.

Doesn't bother me in the slightest, that's why we check before start. I'm sure all of the holier than thous here have never left something switched on though.

[foxmoth]

Two things really upset me if left on - master switch, resulting in a flat battery, and most importantly, mag switches! The rest, as said you can deal with when you do pre start.

[DeeCee]

I've sent you a PM

[thing]

I would have thought that most of us here would like to fly something that has mag switches Fox!:)

[G-F0RC3]

OP: you seem to make a point of learning from your mistakes, which is a good thing. Remember that to get the full range of a multi-tank aircraft you have to use the fuel in both tanks. If you think you have 4 hours of endurance and plan a route taking 2.5 hours, but then only run on one tank then you'll run out of fuel. On top of that, an aircraft badly out of balance will be aerodynamically inferior to a well balanced one, and so less fuel efficient too. I guess you're actually quite lucky you didn't run on one tank for longer, or you might have had an engine failure. :\

[Mike Cross]

I can't knock your enthusiasm but I've seen too many dreams go wrong. If you want to get around Europe without bothering too much about the weather Ryanair and Easyjet are much cheaper. If on the other hand you want to enjoy flying then get stuck into something simpler and cheaper that you can fly anytime without worrying about the cost. I have a friend who did pretty much what you have outlined. He gave himself and his family some frights in IMC and the cost was horrendous. The a/c was found to have corrosion problems and was re-sparred. In the end I suspect he was glad when the nightmare ended. I have another friend who bought a 42 foot steel cutter to go sailing round the world, again sold at a big loss without the dream coming to fruition. I have a number of friends who are serving and retired airline pilots. Do they relax by flying IFR in piston singles? Oh no, they fly for the pleasure of it, daytime VFR, mostly in Permit aircraft that are in beautiful condition. Haven't seen Foxmoth for a while but last time we met he fitted that description.

For myself I'm happy bimbling when I want in an aircraft built before I was (I'm 64). Even though I'm currently only spending about three months a year in the UK I still pay my 45 quid a month (four of us in the group) and when I do get to fly it it's 37.50 an hour. In the US I rent and I'm still trying to work out the mysteries of the G300 in the Skycatcher. Fortunately the airplane hasn't cottoned on yet and still flies like the Luscombe but it's strange not even having a compass, let alone a six-pack.

OK I'll admit to knowing one retired airline captain who has an L39 Abatros but it costs him $750 a time for fuel, he doesn't fly it very often and he has far more money than I and I suspect you will ever have.

On the subject of becoming a licensed engineer, would you think it economic to equip a workshop and become factory trained to service your BMW? The labour costs are not the killer, it's parts costs and bureaucracy that get you on a certified a/c.

Good luck!

[Flyingmac]

I believe it's common practice to taxy a PA28 with the door open when the cockpit gets too warm?

[mary meagher]

Wise words from Mike Cross.

Too many new and inexperienced pilots think that they can use an aeroplane to (1) impress their friends (2)transport their family to vacationland in Europe (3) use in business.

To impress your friends, buy a really interesting vintage car. Taking your friends on a jolly in your aeroplane will (1) bore them (2) make them sick, (3)piss them off or frighten them with weather problems, delays, etc. Even the deepest pockets and the most experienced pilots of light aircraft or helicopters must be prepared to do a 180 in bad weather. Businessmen on the ground driving to the conference may take longer, but are reasonably sure to arrive.

Now if you just love flying, don't do it to impress your friends and family. Do it in something interesting and challenging. A Pitts Special, a Piper Cub, a Tiger Moth, a Soviet fighter plane, (or - dare I mention - a glider, which if you want to impress can set you back £80,000 - or less than £3,000 ) I know you will ignore that last suggestion, but maybe others who read this may think on.

[thing]

Do you fly gliders Mary?

[Mike Cross]

Do you fly gliders Mary?
Wherever did you get that idea? Gliders are great fun. In June I was visiting my cousin in Reno and went gliding at Minden, up to 13,500 ft. Good to know I can still centre in a thermal, with the Luscombe's rate of climb it's a useful skill!

Today was in the back of a PA32 out of Lee on Solent for some air to air with a Catalina, some pictures of Southampton Airport from a new perspective.

Another of my ex-airline friends, this one a retired TriStar Training Captain ended up with a plastic fantastic gliding starship complete with pop-out motor and went gliding all over the world.

[thing]

Bit of irony on my part there Mike...you've been in the States too long...;)

I'm a glider pilot too by the way.

[Mike Cross]

Don't worry, I haven't acquired any irony filters.

Lake Tahoe in June
http://s318267101.websitehome.co.uk/mikephotos/reno2013/IMG_8833.JPG

Southampton yesterday with the Catalina taxying out
http://s318267101.websitehome.co.uk/mikephotos/IMG_9012.JPG

and in flight
http://s318267101.websitehome.co.uk/mikephotos/IMG_8859edited1.JPG