BAC 1-11

[rog747]

can you imagine the noise when this lot started up!

Photos: BAC 111-524FF One-Eleven Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Germanair/BAC-111-524FF-One-Eleven/1159031/L/&sid=85925393239f1d27c96df4f119f68268)

plus a Cambrian 1-11 out of photo...yikes all those Speys winding up

the Super-jet 1-11 was a wonderful a/c in the 1970's for IT charters,

no pax steps needed and a good APU for nice and cold cabin in the Med summer,
baggage holds at waist level so you did not need a low-loader belt for
the bags, amazingly quick turnarounds could be achieved
Photos: BAC 111-523FJ One-Eleven Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/British-Midland-Airways/BAC-111-523FJ-One-Eleven/1773829/L/&sid=85925393239f1d27c96df4f119f68268)

struggled a wee bit back from the Canaries & Corfu/Athens re range but what a wonderfully adapt a/c for it's time...agree?

any flyers out there flew holiday 1-11's???

cheers Rog

[CSman]

Yes I remember the loverly crackle we made , flew the 111 for 12 years with Cambrian and BA,scheduled and IT, on the Berlin corridors, around the Gulf for Gulf Air and on secondment to Air Malawi.Wonderful times ,wonderful Aircraft

[rog747]

oh cool,

i assume that was the ex Autair a/c?
G-AVGP photo - Glyn Woods photos at pbase.com (http://www.pbase.com/bartonian/image/107703328)
nice Cambrian feature here,
SPECIAL FEATURE 15 (http://www.bac1-11jet.co.uk/bac1-11jet.co.uk%20Specialfeature%2015.htm)

what was the -400 series max range like?

could you do BRS or CDF- Malaga or say Tunis ok with 89 pax on hot day?

i see one route CFU-LPL that's a long one...how was that

Canaries?

cheers,

[A30yoyo]

Ha-ha....my b&w shot at the top was shot while waiting on the ramp on the way back from our honeymoon...we were on an I.T. Cambrian BAC-111 returning to Heathrow and I think we paid £30 each inclusive for a week in Marbella.
Photo Search Results | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?aircraft_genericsearch=&airlinesearch=&countrysearch=&specialsearch=&daterange=&keywords=mick+west+malaga&range=&sort_order=photo_id+desc&page_limit=15&thumbnails=)
Air-Britain : m west cambrian (http://www.abpic.co.uk/results.php?q=m+west+cambrian&fields=all&sort=latest&limit=10)

1st BAC-111 I took the Mrs on was BCal Gatwick -Le Touquet (her first flight, she was terrified)....last was mid nineties European Air Services? Manchester to Pisa, most laughable airline breakfast I ever had on that :) (what do you expect for pennies, though?) I loved the ventral airstairs on the BAC 111

The BAC-111 route that fascinates me was the BCal route to West Africa via Lisbon & Las Palmas....real aviation back-water route with bags of history

[rog747]

great shot at malaga very nostalgic and you have some others in your albums too

[CSman]

Yes GP was the ex Autair aircraft,the other three that we operated in Cambrian, G-AVOE, G-AVOFand G-AWBL,all ex COURT LINE,Lots of info on the Cambrian Airways Web site ,also good range of all Cambrian Aircraft photos

[parabellum]

Teneriffe South to Manchester was the most fuel taxing sector I remember!

[PPRuNe Towers]

I loved it dearly and I'll always say I was so glad I cut my jet operations teeth on it.

Just don't mention hand pumping it full of de-min water and waiting a couple of hours to get out of Naples a couple of times every month. Eventually they'd take pity on us and steer the windsock in the right direction for our performance figures:cool:

Rob

[pigboat]

I would have dearly loved to have seen that airplane re-engine with Tays.

[ICT_SLB]

I once saw an in-flight video shot inside the Dee Howard prototype. Couldn't believe how quiet it was especially when the camera showed that they hadn't reinstalled the cabin insulation over where the rear fuselage had been mod'd for the Tays. Well after ROMBAC ground to halt, a manager at Canadair asked me about the 1-11 when I'd told him about a 100-seater equivalent to the CRJ - what might have been! After all the 717 is only a DC-9 with BR710s.

[SpringHeeledJack]

In the early/mid 90's I flew somewhat regularly on DanAir, due to price ;) and they used 1-11's on the MXP-LGW sectors. Due to performance restrictions we had to make 2 or more large orbits after takeoff so as to be able to get up over the Alps looming in the vicinity. As an aside a few American pilots who knew of the 1-11 spoke very highly of it, perhaps due to so much noise coming out of such a small airframe :}



SHJ

[WHBM]

I would have dearly loved to have seen that airplane re-engine with Tays.
Isn't that called the F-100 ? :)

[Flightwatch]

I flew the "Super" 1-11 for 14 years. Based at Manchester we did many weekend ITs when the aircraft had plenty of spare downtime. The Super had been certified by B(E)A at an artificially low MTOW of 41,730kgs to save on landing charges etc. but had only dry engines and 99 pax - the latter to ensure that only 2 cabin crew were required on the Berlin routes. As a consequence our range was severely limited - Palma was kept to 87 and Malaga was out of the question.

I suppose our climb performance was better than the equivalent Dan etc. aircraft that had another 20 seats or so and 4 tonnes TOW but I don't ever remember having to orbit when on a MXP-MAN IT, the only time I remember having to do that was out of GOA for LHR in a Viscount.

Used for it's intended purpose as a "bus-stop jet" it was fantastic, it was only when over extended in a high capacity longer distance mission it's performance was somewhat limiting.

[Level bust]

I did a jump sit ride with London European to MXP from LTN on a 1-11. Coming out of Milan we had to climb in the hold to clear the mountains. What was worrying was the Alitalia B727 climbing visually between us and the mountains to get above us. No mention of it from ATC, but thats another story.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Wonder what happened to Captain French of BEA? He used to fly 1-11s into Heathrow and he was the nicest bloke you could ever meet.

Isn't there a "do" at Brooklands about now for the 1-11? An ex-Heathrow chum of mind mentioned it but my empty brain didn't register it. (That's he of G-AVMR fame by the way).

[rog747]

the 'do' is 20th august...

at Brooklands

from the yahoo 1-11 group,
quote''
I must just add that the 1-11 50th is a "private function" being held at
the museum. You must therefore have "direct" links" to the aircraft to be
considered for this ticketed, invitation only event. Public entry to the museum
"Will Not" give you entry to the celebration! Therefore it's best to contact me
by email to ensure that I can arrange any further tickets.
The 1-11 50th will be taking place at the Brooklands Museum on August 20th. If anyone else would like to attend then please
contact either myself or Brooklands Museum directly as soon as possible.''

[dixi188]

Tuesday 20th August 2013 is the 50th anniversary of the maiden flight of the prototype BAC One-Eleven G-ASHG
I saw it take-off from Hurn on my 10th birthday.

[frieghtdog2000]

I remember doing the walk-round at Glasgow when a BAE 146 arrived on the adjacent stand - couldn't hear it over the sound of our APU!

Nice to fly - difficult to start (smack the CSDS hard) and hard to stop - on the ground.

Jersey Manchester in the summer - 501 with a full load and +32 so needed to tech stop Bournemouth. Middle of an airshow so parked next to the BBMF Lancaster. Punters (all week-end holiday makers) loved it and all got the BBMF brochure.

The last of the fuel noise converters.

[ZOOKER]

Ahh, MAN-JERSEY-MAN.
BA5216 and '5217 in my day.
Great aircraft, with great crews flying them.

[WHBM]

The Super had been certified by B(E)A at an artificially low MTOW of 41,730kgs to save on landing charges etc. but had only dry engines and 99 pax - the latter to ensure that only 2 cabin crew were required on the Berlin routes. As a consequence our range was severely limited ..... I suppose our climb performance was better than the equivalent Dan etc. aircraft that had another 20 seats or so and 4 tonnes TOW
I read that the BEA-specified fleet were very different in cockpit arrangement from the "standard" build. BA later bought a few new aircraft, plus many secondhand ones, the main contribution of course being the ex-B Cal fleet. These remained with the airline for many years after. How did this work ? Were there two separate crew groups ?

Although the IT aircraft had a higher max weight, they did have more powerful engines. Was this only achieved by the water injection or were there other changes to them ? How long did the de-min water last on takeoff ?

Used for it's intended purpose as a "bus-stop jet" it was fantastic, it was only when over extended in a high capacity longer distance mission it's performance was somewhat limiting.
Aircraft designed for notably short routes have always been poor/abysmal sellers (cf, the Mercure, the VFW-614, etc). There isn't much of a market for really short haul jet flights, and commercial carriers want something with a wider span of performance. What's the point of an aircraft that gets from London to Milan but makes you buy another type to get to Athens ?

[frieghtdog2000]

The BEA version was the -510 - Smiths Flight System as per the Trident and all the switches went the other way from the rest. Hence you flew either the 510 (18 built) or any other variant. BEA also took out the forward airstairs to save weight and replaced them with the equivalent weight to keep the aircraft in trim. :ugh:

Latterly I believe the CAA relaxed this and crews flew both.

[pigboat]

Isn't that called the F-100 ?
Ahhh..wasn't the F100 an F28 re-engined with Tays?

I seem to recall Dee Howard had an idea for an executive version of the 1-11 with Tays, but rumour had it he couldn't get it certified for various reasons.

[rog747]

thanks to you all for the great replies, the thread has obviously stirred alot of
nostalgia and also the 50th bash is at brooklands tomorrow 20/8

if any 1-11 drivers or anyone involved in the 1-11 then contact
BAC1-11 : The BAC 1-11 Forum is the right place for all one-eleven fans (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BAC1-11/)

cheers rog,

keep the stories coming especially about the IT routes,
i came back one night from Athens to LGW on Dan's Romanian leased -500 and we took off well before their 2 x 727's which both then overtook us and landed 30 mins before us lol.

i was due to go on holiday to Dubrovnik summer 1972 on a BCAL 1-11 500 but G-AWYS ran off the end at Corfu during a RTO, so their capacity was tight...

we flew out to DBV on a Northeast Trident and back 2 weeks later on the famous Wardair 727! fantastic machine

[India Four Two]

the famous Wardair 727! fantastic machine

and a great airline. It's a shame Max Ward became too ambitious and eventually had to sell out to Canadian Airlines.

[cockney steve]

Around 1968 I flew on my first commercial passenger flight(Previously enjoyed an Auster "Jolly" from Clacton Airstrip)
Flew Heathrow- Glasgow on a BEA Viscount...was directed to the right, IIRC,as I'd been bumped of the previous flight.....as a naive 21/22 y.o. I didn't appreciate the significance:O
the rest of the weeks' itinerary was a bit of a comedown....hebrides,Wick via Vanguard ...the return involved a BEA Limousine from Dundee to Edinburgh Turnhouse, where the flight was cancelled due Wx. Coach to Glasgow Abbotsinch and a BUA 1-11 awaited us to teleport to Gatwick.
What a starship! my overriding memories....the push in the back after lining up. the super smart, quiet cabin, and a meal served on an hour's flight!
Upon landing, the massive deceleration...(Thrust-reversers?)
This was an amazing aeroplane compared to what I referred to as the Vickers Vimy, that BEA operated. I wondered how long they could continue to trade on the convenience of thiefrow, with the archaic ,vibrating, noisy Turboprop.
(hate to think how noisy cattle-class was, though I seem to remember the Hostie saying that the cheap seats were actually quieter?
Of course, the BAC left the noise behind!

Ahh, nostalgia isn't like it used to be!

[pigboat]

Somebody mentioned bus stop routes. Quebecair ran the BAC on some notoriously short ones, CYWK - CYKL, 125 sm, and CYBC - CYYY, 35 sm.

It's a shame Max Ward became too ambitious and eventually had to sell out to Canadian Airlines.
Agreed, although in his defence Max was royally scrod at every turn by the @#$% in Ottawa. :mad:

[Flightwatch]

Wonder what happened to Captain French of BEA? He used to fly 1-11s into Heathrow and he was the nicest bloke you could ever meet.


HD, This from the latest list of "Absent Friends" published monthly by BA. Larry was Heathrow based on the S1-11 and a great man to fly with. He had a rather lugubrious expression and well used appearance which belied his character and sense of humour. As you can see he retired in '75 and made a good age and drew his pension for 10 years longer than he served!

Capt Lawrence CJ French Senior Captain 92 03-May-75 28

There was another French, "Alf" based in Manchester he was probably a bit younger so if the MR incident was after '75 it was probably him. He was a large but soft spoken man who never had a bad word to say about anyone. His thing was oompah bands and he would frequent the Berlin venues where they played, buying the band drinks to be allowed to play a song or two with them, He lived just up the road from Ringway in Hale Barns and was the only pilot I ever met who regularly cycled to work. He was certainly the type who wouldn't have complained about being "forgotten" downwind on approach,

Sadly, if I remember correctly he left us a few years ago but I might be wrong, maybe someone else can confirm.

[DHfan]

It's a pleasure to see the obvious affection crews have for the 1-11.

From the other end of the aircraft, my views are a bit different! As self-loading freight going on holiday, my first three round trips abroad were all on 1-11s but apparently ones very different to those in scheduled service. They appeared to be fitted with several more rows of seats than the aircraft was designed for and at 6'1" I didn't fit so my knees were firmly embedded in the seat back. The discomfort has stuck in my mind for nearly 40 years.

I can't argue about the performance. With a go-around at Luton for whatever reason it went up like a rocket ship.

[rog747]

court line squidged 119 pax into their -500's with the lovely seat back dining options

whereas most other charter companies it was 109 and comfort was fairly ok...

Channel Airways in 1967 ordered their -400's with an extra pair of o/wing exits to enable 99 pax (89 usually)
and they also got 139 pax into their Tridents with the forward cabin in a 7 abreasts 3-4 config, cosy for families!

[ATNotts]

If I recall correctly, Y119 was the standard config for all the UK operated B15s on the IT market (British Midland, Court, Dan Air, British World, EAF) - have I missed any?

I think I'm right in saying that Bavaria Flug. Germanair and Pan Internation of Germany also configured Y119 on the 500 series.

[DHfan]

I've no idea now which airline(s) they were apart from not Court Line - I'd have noticed! Britannia or Monarch from Luton in 1973 I guess. The next time was 1985 from Gatwick to Nice and not a clue...

[rog747]

British United and Caledonian (think of G-AWYS G-AWWX G-AXYD etc) had their 1-11's in 109 or 114 definitely at first...
i went to Palma in 1970 on WX and it was def not 119 lol!

i then went onto work for an IT operator 4S holidays and we fully chartered both BUA and Cale (which became Cale//Bua lol) and Court 1-11's (Court then bought us out with Horizon holidays)

it was Court Line that started the 119 fit because they fitted the seat back catering and making the galley smaller...
The Dan Air Comet 4b/c's Clarkson's had on charter by then had 119 seats (106 in the Comet 4) which matched that.

RE the German IT 1-11 500 operators sorry i cannot confirm what fit they started out with...

the likes of when the 1-11 500 was operated by Monarch Dan Air EAF BIA and BWA all had 119 with the inheritance of much but not all of the old Court fleet, but the seat back catering was removed eventually.


not forgetting British Midland also operated 3 x 1-11 523 from new,
i went onto to work for BMA in 1977 but the 1-11's had gone...
i seem to recall they were 114? perhaps someone will tell us lol

BEA's a/c were 510 series with no water injection on lower rated Speys
99 seaters...and did operate many IT sectors from Berlin as well as UK.

[WHBM]

Britannia never had a One-Eleven. Monarch had a small number after 1975, starting with some of the redundant Court Line fleet after their August 1974 bankruptcy; I don't know if they kept the Seatback catering like Dan-Air did on the ones passed to them - there were reports of DA still using this in the 1980s, although it was only a couple of aircraft in their fleet.

Among other One-Eleven stories are the ex-Tarom ones which started Ryanair off into trunk routes like Dublin to Liverpool and Luton. They came from Romania with pilots but not cabin crew, at a time when the Romanian economy was hitting rock bottom. Apparently top of the tree to volunteer for this duty were the test pilots from the RomBac plant that had assembled a few of the aircraft. Their English language skills were such that the cabin crew were required to make all normal passenger PAs - pity ATC then.

IT operator 4S holidays
Do I recall their strapline correctly ? Sun, Sea, Sand, and ....... Superjet. I presume the last was replaced by another word from time to time.

[rog747]

whbm

yes of course 4S

sun sea sand by superjet and whatever else you did in the swinging seventies on your sunshine hols lol

the MD was Sid Silver, quite a character !

so 6S really!!

our parent before Clarksons/Court Line bought us all was Horizon Hols whose chairman was a pioneer of IT hols Vladimir Riatz

Horizon survived and re-birthed and formed Orion Airways later on.

the tag line Super Jet was initiated by many 1-11 operators started by British Eagle with their Super Jet One - Eleven title in 1966

[Trackdiamond]

Is the ROMBAC plant still producing the 1-11 or totally stopped?
Is the 1-11 still flying in Europe?Africa?
Where can I get cheap 1-11 lessors?
Where can one get access to a cheap BAC1-11 sim for amateur?Where is most BAC1-11 sim training done?

Thanks

[rog747]

no
no
no
no

there is one or 2 private ones around plus a few heaps in Africa

this one was for sale
http://www.classicjettours.com/BAC111/Pages/49.html

[DHfan]

So - if it wasn't Court Line and couldn't have been Britannia or Monarch, who was flying 1-11s in cattle class/steerage configuration out of Luton in 1973?

[rog747]

dan air had -400's based there then i recall

[WHBM]

Yes, Dan-Air had based One-Elevens at Luton from the 1969 season onwards. When British Eagle failed in Autumn 1968 their principal IT tour client, Lunn-Poly, turned to Dan-Air for their programme for the following summer, and they picked up a couple of American Airlines One-Eleven 400s, some of the few on the market at the time, and operated them out of Luton rather than the established Dan-Air Comet base at Gatwick.

I notice nobody so far has mentioned the Aer Lingus fleet. The bought four of the early aircraft in 1965 and operated them right through to the early 1990s, generally to Continental Europe rather than the UK, although a number of these Aer Lingus European flights stopped at Manchester on the way. It seemed to be a low-key but successful and long-lived fleet for a quarter of a century.

Did anyone (Channel?) have 6-abreast in the One-Eleven?
No, not even Sqn. Ldr. Jones at Channel was that mad. They did do 7-across Tridents in part of the aircraft, but I believe that didn't last. They had also previously done a packed DC4.

[TSR2]

although a number of these Aer Lingus European flights stopped at Manchester on the way.

Absolutely correct. I flew the MAN-CPH route regularly in the 70's and had the choice of BA with 1-11's, SK with DC9's and EI with 1-11's.
The EI flight was my favourite if only for the smoked salmon brunch.

[26er]

The mark which nobody has mentioned was the 475, originally intended to be able to operate from less than perfect surfaces. They had bigger main wheels and consequently a bulge in the u/c doors to accommodate them. For six months or so Mediterranean Express operated one from LTN on IT work. It originally had belonged to Fawcet in Peru. Another airline which hit the dust still owing me and a few others pay! And SOAF, later called Royal Air Force of Oman, had several 475 freighters. The last couple years of my professional flying were with Anglo Cargo on their 475 freighter which was leased from Tarom. It had been used to ferry jigs and bits to the Rombac factory to make their 1-11s so though relatively elderly had very few hours. Part of the contract required us to employ a few Tarom pilots and we often had mixed Brit and Rom flight decks. The Roms in the main were a good bunch, both socially and professionally. One went on to become the Chief Pilot of Tarom (George Racaru). Another wore a big medal on his uniform, awarded for very quick thinking when another captain sitting on the jumpseat, on short finals and for no known reason, leaned forward and closed both high pressure cocks. Captain Botezatu managed to open the HP cocks and hit the relights and fortunately one engine picked up preventing what would have been an ignominious arrival. Happy days, but the IGS (Internal German Service) of BEA/BA as Flightwatch I'm sure will agree, were some of the best times.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I was also a MAN - CPH regular and used all 3 carriers. You got a nice breakfast on the BA 1-11 out of MAN in Business - inclding a small bottle of champers!

I used to jump seat regularly back then, and remember an Aer Lingus 1-11 with a sticker on the inside of the cockpit door - "Fly this aeroplane green side up!".

Then there was the landing one freezing January morning at CPH in a BA 1-11. The Captain was chatting to me while the P2 was working frantically to fly the approach in busy traffic, descending while keeping sufficient engine power on to maintain anti-ice. There was nothing to see outside except grey clag (and ice on the windscreen peripheries), the wipers going 19 to the dozen. The Boss briefly broke off his chat to turn to the P2 and say 2watch out for the fog horn". Apparently in foggy wx it would be operating and if it went off just as you flew over it on the ILS in IMC it couldn't half make you jump!

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

BTW, my first ever airline flight was about 1970 MAN - Palma in a Laker 1-11. I don't think that carrier has been mentioned yet in this thread unless I missed it.

[WHBM]

Freddie Laker started the whole One-Eleven story off, of course, because when Managing Director of British United he signed the first order, for the 10 BUA aircraft. Later, when he went into business for himself, he placed another order for the aircraft. He got some good utilisation out of them, normally having three at Gatwick, one at Manchester, and one at Liverpool (their main North of England tour operator, Arrowsmith, was actually based in Liverpool).

BUA had the most bizarre One-Eleven service, for years one left Gatwick on Tuesdays for Lisbon and Las Palmas, where it nightstopped, then on Wednesday continued down the Africa coast to Bathurst in Gambia, Freetown in Sierra Leone, and Accra in Ghana. Thursday and Friday it made its leisurely way back, in time for those extra IT flights at the weekend. I presume the same crew stayed with it for the four days. Here's the initial schedule from February 1965 when it took over from the Viscount which had previously done the same thing. I wonder how many pax they got.

http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/complete/br64/br64-06.jpg

Another BUA midweek task in the 1960s was Min of Defence charters to military bases in Germany, which took the One-Eleven off regular airports and into various RAF bases. I believe that for these flights they had to turn the seats around to face backwards as that was the RAF requirement. Nowadays that would be a big engineering task, but then it was a couple of fitters and a box of spanners just done as part of an overnight shift.

[Chris Scott]

Yes, WHBM, the BUA/BCAL once-weekly West African coastal One-Eleven service was, IIRC, by the 1970s the only night-stopping scheduled service in the world. It had to be leisurely, with three night-stops, because it presumably wasn't considered practical to slip One-Eleven flight-crews at Las Palmas and Accra. Hence, as you suggest, one flight-crew did the whole 4-day trip. That was a rare experience of foreign night-stopping for them, because our limited European scheduled network (due to HMG's fear of allowing us to compete with BEA) resulted in very few night-stops even in Europe, and the VC10s and/or B707s did all the long-haul.

As a co-pilot on the VC10 in the early 1970s, one of our favourite jollies was a rotation that involved passengering out to Freetown on that One-Eleven service to await, IIRC, a northbound VC10 from Santiago and Buenos Aires. There was a rather good disco in Las Palmas, the name of which escapes me at the moment. Fortunately, we could catch up on our sleep while the operating crew tried to navigate their way to Banjul...

PS
I'm guessing that the BUA timetable you've linked us to must be from late 1965 to early 1966, due to the BR211 still reaching SAY? So that coastal One-Eleven service, presumably inherited from Viscounts, was a long-lived operation. It was still going in 1974, IIRC.

PPS
Correction: I now see it must be Winter 1964/5. It shows the One-Eleven taking over from the Viscount on Tuesday 16 Feb (i.e., 1965). In fact, I don't think BUA actually started operating One-Elevens anywhere until the spring or summer of that year. (The first BUA VC10 into Salisbury was October 1964.)

[ZeBedie]

BEA also took out the forward airstairs to save weight and replaced them with the equivalent weight to keep the aircraft in trim.

Yes, I was told that some keen manager decided that, as they were rarely used, it would be a good idea to remove them to save weight. So they were removed and it was quickly apparent that there were CofG issues. A quick fix was needed and replacing the airstairs wasn't going to be quick. Hence the concrete blocks.

I expect said manager was promoted:rolleyes:

[WHBM]

the BUA/BCAL once-weekly West African coastal One-Eleven service was, IIRC, by the 1970s the only night-stopping scheduled service in the world.
There were still in the 1970s the Northwest services from the USA to Tokyo, some of which night-stopped there and continued the next morning to Asian points beyond with the same flight number and aircraft. There was a licence restriction which meant they had to be provided as through services but to meet commercial requirements for a morning departure from Tokyo onward to Asia it had to be done this way. The pax hotac at Tokyo was included in the fare. Did this apply at Las Palmas with B. Cal (not that yourselves seem to have particularly needed it ..... !).

[parabellum]

The Laker BAC1-11s were the -300 series, forgotten the significance of that now. Seem to remember two in Berlin, one at LGW and one or two at MAN, when I was with them.

The biggest operator of the BAC1-11 was Allegheny, in the USA.

[Chris Scott]

Yes, think the HOTAC was included in the pax fare, but we tended to keep a discreet distance from them so I'm not sure. Had to get back to the "pub" eventually, if only to catch our transport out to the airport. In those days, we always passengered in civvies, which was just as well. (More recently, uniform protocols for positioning crews seem to have changed, particularly to third-world countries, perhaps to avoid visa hold-ups.)

Yes, parabellum, and BCAL inherited a couple of Dash-300s from Laker around 1983. Cockpit switches rather different from the ex-BUA and ex-Caledonian aircraft, IIRC. I had the dubious (and instantly forgotten) honour of commanding the first BCAL revenue flight of a Dash-300!

Re Allegheny, some of our ex-BA (redundant) cadets did their One-Eleven conversions in Pittsburgh, IIRC.

[ICT_SLB]

And while we're peering into the dark recesses of 1-11 history, anyone know what the Type 670 was?

[reynoldsno1]

SOAF had 3 Type 475s I think. They modified ne of them to put a fuel tank in the belly hold, and operated the cabin as PCF. It would do Muscat to Bournemouth with one stop, usually Larnaca ISTR

[gruntie]

.....from February 1965 when it took over from the Viscount which had previously done the same thing.

In that case it probably explains the following picture:

http://i44.tinypic.com/2ij1ams.jpg

Found last year in a family archive, forgotten and unviewed for half a century. There was a visit to Sierra Leone in about 1964, it must have been there(ish).

[Chris Scott]

gruntie,

What a great picture (and aeroplane, for that matter). It certainly looks like Lungi (Freetown). Banjul still had a PSP (perforated steel plate?) surface on its apron long after the One-Eleven took over the route.

BTW, the point I was trying to make about the change of type to One-Eleven was that it could not have taken place as early as the timetable provided by WHBM predicted (16/2/65), because I think revenue service with BUA was delayed until later in the year.

[Volume]

Is the 1-11 still flying in Europe?I did see one not too many years ago at Braunschweig, operated by the RAF flying school or test pilot school or something like that. Is that aircraft retired by now?

Ah, the 1-11 was the first aircraft I ever flew on, back in ´74... Bavaria CGN-BIA...

[rog747]

thank you for a wonderful viscount photo...

re 6 abreast on channel 1-11's
i think they wanted to try that but did it ever happen?

i did witness as a passenger the 7 abreast on their Trident
i was in a row of 4 with my mum and dad and my friend and it was actually OK lol!
(we were both lads of 12 i think) mum and dad were quite slim,
we went to Malaga on it.
the 7 across was in the front part.

[srobarts]

Is that aircraft retired by now?
It was retired by Qinetic and delivered to Classic Air Force at Newquay on 26th April. Here is a shot taken as it did a flyby before landing. CAF list the plane as flyable but but not currently active.
http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt47/jasperspaniel/DSC01981_zpsa64977e3.jpg (http://s596.photobucket.com/user/jasperspaniel/media/DSC01981_zpsa64977e3.jpg.html)

[The SSK]

Just wondering if the 1-11 had any peculiarities, because both the smoothest and the roughest flights I can ever remember were both on 1-11s.

The smoothest was a short hop on BUA from Glasgow to Newcastle. The aircraft flew as if it was on rails, you could have balanced the proverbial thruppenny bit on its edge on the tray. The turns were crisp and brisk.

The roughest was even shorter, a BEA -500 Blackpool to Manchester, marketed as a day-trip MAN-BLK-MAN to position the aircraft for a Sunday IT rotation. Fare was just £4 there and back and the aircraft was full with mostly inexperienced Mancunian joyriders. Inbound to MAN we were hurled all over the sky – I like a bit of sensation when I fly but this was the one and only time I’ve been genuinely frightened - but not as much as the other punters. There was quite a lot of screaming going on.

[parabellum]

The wings and, I think, centre wing were all milled out of a solid block of metal, didn't flex as much as, say, a B737 wing!

[Wodrick]

Not an Airframe person but I think the Machined bit was the entire center section. I may have the recollection slightly wrong but WWX when with DAN got whacked by hail on the ground in ZRH.
The "machined skin" as the heavies referred to it was well dented and non repairable, Aerospace gave a fly on dispensation and she went to the scrapper like that.

As for "not flexing much" the much is superfluous ! just like walking on a plank, and I've walked a few 1-11 wings :)

[WHBM]

BTW, the point I was trying to make about the change of type to One-Eleven was that it could not have taken place as early as the timetable provided by WHBM predicted (16/2/65), because I think revenue service with BUA was delayed until later in the year.
Correct, the first BUA schedule was done on 9 April 1965, Gatwick to Genoa. This was actually shown elsewhere in the linked timetable as being from 15 January. What we have to bear in mind is that, unlike today, the "winter timetable" here is effective from October 1 the previous year, and to be adequately distributed probably had to be finalised and got to the printer some time in August, six months before these services were starting, and indeed maybe before the metal for the aircraft had been cut. Different world.

both the smoothest and the roughest flights I can ever remember were both on 1-11s.You can get the same effect on a PA28 at the flying club, dependent on whether the landing is being done by the CFI or the student !

[TURIN]

Very nostalgic stuff.

1-11 was one of the first a/c I worked on as a BA apprentice.
Got a few bruises on my shoulder from walking into the (ADF?) antenna under the fuselage. Fitted to the -539s I think. Additional bumps to the head also gained from the mid span wing fence. Now that did hurt!

It was a bit maintenance intensive on the night stoppers as I remember. Checking the hydraulic quantities involved depressurising the standby steering and brake accumulators, dropping the l/g doors, tripping the hyd pump CBs and physically checking the sightglass' in the l/g bay. Pumping hydraulic fluid in was awkward too.

Topping up the accumulator N and crew O2 was far too regular compared to a modern jet.
The CSDS (Constant Speed Drive Starter) change took a strong back and finesse. The Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! noise of a drive shearing on start up sent the fear of god into a few old hands.

As for the cargo doors being handy and low down. Lifting the door into the closed position has accounted for more bad backs than I can count. :{

[ICT_SLB]

Turin,
You are correct - the dual ADFs had Chelton "towel rail" antennas under the aft fuselage. They were repositioned to the top of the fuse on the 475.

[primreamer]

In the early to mid 80's there were several, Middle Eastern, privately owned 1-11's that regularly visited the BCal hangars at LGW. At least two were "475" series airframes with beefed up undercarriage and bigger wheel/tyre assemblies as previously mentioned and also had additional fuel tanks fitted in the rear cargo holds. These extra tanks were made up of three individual, but joined together, solid cells with a rubber bag tank inside each. The rearmost cell was in line with the engines and had what can only be described as armour plating bolted to the sides in order to offer some protection in the event of a castastrophic engine failure. Goodness knows how the C of G was affected but it certainly boosted the range.
Incidentally, had a look around the ex BA 1-11 G-AVMO at East Fortune last week. Still in pretty good nick, even after sitting outside for a good few years.

[Trackdiamond]

I have rently been toying around the 200 and 500 pc flight sim models (I am an ATPL jet jet trained pilot).Handling characteristiscs seemed smooth boith manually and on auto..
The deck looked primitive and cluttered but must have been a pioneer techie for its time like the HS Trident.I understand the later 400 and 500 models had Autoland capability(really?).Was the Fog horn (that went off when joinining the ILS) useful or pestering?I found this plane required good understanding of jet systems operations and turbojet handling anomalies.
How did it compare with the French Mercure and Fokker28 or DC9-30?
In reality was it an easy greaser?

Were its take off and landing runs long?

Were those tiny spoilers that effective for speed control and landing stop distance?

Did the later models incorporate Autothrottle for Autoland (understood BA tried to standardize its flight deck and instrumentation to the Trident)

Had the alternative more efficient engines been certified for this model might it be a successful low cost ops work horse as short haul high frequency revenue machine?

:8Did this type realy have a lift off light(ref to blue light next to ADI in attached photo)?

[Offchocks]

I was employed on the 1-11 in 1978 as an FO with Monarch, it was my first jet and what fun.

I do however remember some not so fun duties such as during engine start, turning a stuck pneumatic valve next to the engine with a long handled tool....... very noisy! When the APU was US, a ground air cart was used and since the locals would not go near it, I would be again down the back under the engine. Then there was the dropping of the gear doors so you could check the hydraulic chip detectors (7 I think) having had one of the pumps fail. There was also the loading of demin water with a very slow air pump we carried. This was all done on transit down in the sunny med. I know demin water is a thing of the past, but I wonder if that sort of pilot input to the operation still goes on? It doesn't in my airline, engineers where ever you go!

[Old Boeing Driver]

Ahhh..wasn't the F100 an F28 re-engined with Tays?

I seem to recall Dee Howard had an idea for an executive version of the 1-11 with Tays, but rumour had it he couldn't get it certified for various reasons.

Dee Howard actually converted 1 BAC-1-11. I believe is was owned by Hilton at the time.

It would have been about 1990-92.

I don't think they ever finished the certification.

[Level bust]

I landed at Leeds in a BMA 1-11 in 1970 (21st Aug to be precise) I have no idea which runway we landed on as I was only 13 at the time. BMA had combined 2 loads, the Viscount that was supposed to go Glasgow - Leeds - Luton and the 1-11 that was going Glasgow - EMA - Luton because the Viscount had gone tech.

When we landed, with a full 119 on board, we just about stopped at the end! Those that remained on board were all moved forward, we then sat on the end with engines at full power before rolling. Just as we rotated the end of the runway went passed.

My Father worked for BMA at the time and the rumour going round was once they arrived at EMA the crew refused to take it on to Luton.

[pigboat]

QB aircraft were ex-British Eagle.

http://www.al-airliners.be/p-r/quebecair/qb1-11n.jpg

..And later..

http://airlinersgallery.smugmug.com/Airlines-Canada/Quebecair/i-6DC5fw3/0/L/Quebecair%201-11%20400%20C-FQBR%20(80)(Grd)%20YUL%20(PIL)(46)-L.jpg

Still later.

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/middle/7/3/3/1543337.jpg