Piston Provost

[RetiredBA/BY]

Can anyone help with a copy of the Piston Provost flying instructor's handbook. (AP3225?)

I am an ex CFS standards QFI, (Jet Provost) considering the purchase of a PP which I would wish to operate to CFS standards.

If the purchase goes ahead, I will be offering 3 shares in the machine.

[Wander00]

Good luck - never flew the PP, but trained on the JP 3 and 4. Always had a strange affinity for the PP - saw one at Old Warden this week. always makes me wish I had flown it - did get 45 mins in the BD Harvard several years ago. Magic.

[SOSL]

Piston Provost - YouTube

Rgds SOS

[RetiredBA/BY]

Thanks for the video and good wishes.

I, too, trained on JPs but have a strong urge to fly a big radial before its too late.
6 fts , my own fts, was the last school to fly the PP at Ternhill then Acklington before the JPs arrived.

690, the silver a/c in the video, is the one under consideration !!

[SOSL]

Hope you manage to get it and then enjoy it!

Technically off thread but just for fun

Jet Provost-A Flight in the JP5- Part One - YouTube

and

Jet Provost-A Flight in the JP5 - Part Two - YouTube

and finally

Jet Provost-A Flight in the JP5 - Part Three - YouTube

Rgds SOS

[Wwyvern]

RetiredBA/BY

I have a copy of the PP Instructor Handbook. I'll PM you tomorrow.

Wwyvern

[RetiredBA/BY]

Brilliant, thank you !

I actually live in Cookham, Berks, now, so could collect !

JP5 was the smoothest and quietest JP but the 4 had the best performance, and the type from which I ejected! Visited the crash site last week, local residents still remember it 50 years after the event.

Thanks for the video !!

[CoffmanStarter]

RetiredBA/BY ...

Good luck and please keep us updated :ok:

Coff.

[BEagle]

RetiredBA/BY - I guess you know that there's a PP not a million miles from you at Grazeley? Owned by an ex-BA VC10/Concorde captain and kept at his farm strip.

[John Farley]

RetiredBA/BY

Interested in your JP4 ejection. What was the date?

We had a rogue 4 at Barkston in the '61/'62 time that did not spin like the rest so we would not let studes solo in it. Complained to Boscombe so they came to fly it but did not want to talk to us. They jumped out in their first spin.

JF

[RetiredBA/BY]

Amazing replies so soon !
John, my ejection was on April 18th, 1963. Don't have the T shirt but DO now have the Bremont watch! The cause was one of those false fire warnings.

We (inc. my Then QFI) were guests of MB on the 50th. Anniversary.

All the JPs I spun were very stable and totally predictable, except the 5 which had a rather oscillatory spin, but recovered normally. In my days as a QFI solo spinning was out as were those turn backs which killed more than they saved.

Beagle, didn't know about the Grazely PP. I am ex BA VC 10 too, with more than a passing acquaintance of Concorde, I probably know him! Love to get in touch if you can point me in the right direction, would be good to discuss ownership and it could be mutually beneficial !

The PP I am looking at is currently at Yeovilton but IF I buy it will be brought near to Cookham which means WW or Booker but will need hangaring, too good to leave outdoors in the UK climate.

Thank you all for the replies.

[Wander00]

SOSL - loved the Old Warden video - saw the camo'd aeroplane there on Monday - but thought the PP was changing colour scheme whilst airborne, then realised I had missed a bit at the beginning and there were two of them!

[BEagle]

RetiredBA/BY, if you go to G-INFO and type 'P56 Provost T1' into the search pane, it will list all 5 PPs currently on the UK register:

GINFO Search Results Summary | Aircraft Register | Operations and Safety (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=60&pagetype=65&appid=1&mode=summary&aircrafttype=P56%20Provost%20T1)

The one to which I refer is G-AWPH which is the first on the list. Click on the registration and it will give you full details - including the address of 'Ginger', the owner!

I did have his e-mail address, but am not sure if it's still current.

[Rosevidney1]

Interesting comments on the spinning foibles of the Jet Provost, a type I've never tried but long ago I trained on the Provost T 1 and came to love it although it too had an 'interesting' spin. After the airframe driver did all the right things it was in no rush to cease its rotation, a most curious and slightly unsettling trait although it did eventually play the game. :eek:

[aw ditor]

Rtd BA/BY. ISTR there is an AAIB Report into the sad loss of a Piston Provost which occurred a couple or so years ago. I believe there were some recommendations re the Leonides. I'm probably teaching my Granny etc etc etc, for which I apologise. Did "basic" on the PP', great aircraft but, it used to vent fuel into the cockpit on "slow rolls" especially my dreadful ones!

[Wander00]

Air Accidents Investigation: Hunting Percival P56 Provost T1, G-AWVF (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/bulletins/october_2010/hunting_percival_p56_provost_t1__g_awvf.cfm)

AAIB Report here

[RetiredBA/BY]

Thanks again, chaps.

Yes I have read the AAIB report on the accident to the Fairey machine. The engine on 690 has been stripped in accordance with CAA requirements so the gudgeon pins should not be troublesome in the future.

Now my memory has been triggered I do recall that Ginger Bradshaw has a PP, but surprised and pleased he still has it.

I will contact him.

Again, many thanks for all this info. I am most grateful, it will certainly help my decision.

[John Farley]

RetiredBA/BY.

Many thanks. Looked up your aircraft loss in my book of RAF Cat 5s. I shall not mention the crew names quoted!

Funnily enough I had the same light come on out of Barkston when solo in a JP4 and practising a Cranwell pass out form aeros routine. It was accompanied by a rather disturbing pop behind me and a smell of burning but I was well placed so shut it down and landed at Cranwell South.

JF

[BEagle]

Now my memory has been triggered I do recall that Ginger Bradshaw has a PP, but surprised and pleased he still has it.

I will contact him.



Do give the crusty old bugger my regards when you make contact - he and I were instructors together at ULAS in the early 1990s.

Incidentally, he actually won the Kings Cup Air Race in his PP in 1971!!

[H Peacock]

John, my ejection was on April 18th, 1963. Don't have the T shirt but DO now have the Bremont watch! The cause was one of those false fire warnings.

I'm intrigued as to what happened, in my day in the JP I recall the drill for an Engine Fire indication was: Close, Cancel, Climb, Confirm!

[CoffmanStarter]

Slightly off thread ... But is anyone able to offer a comparison on handling between the Piston Provost and the BP Balliol ? What were they like to spin ?

Best ...

Coff.

[Wander00]

Was talking to a guy at Cranwell Flyiing Club Families Day on Sunday who could tell you. I will try and get a name. he was talking to me about the Balliol.

[CoffmanStarter]

Cheers W00 :ok:

Hopefully he might share on here ?

[Wander00]

Coff - will see what I can do. W

[SOSL]

What a sad outcome on 8 Jul 2009! I'm gutted. heartfelt condolences to his family and friends.

Rgds SOS

[Evalu8ter]

Beags,
Remember his departure from the Summer camp at St Mawgan in 90 or 91? The Boss' and CFI's faces were pictures....

Ah the PP - a lovely looking and sounding aeroplane - on the 'to do' list for certain.

[brokenlink]

Slight thread creep but..... PP WV499 used to be at North Weald (had the 39 Sqn badge painted on the fin by one of my colleagues) on static display, then to Sandtoft. Last heard off in the West Country. Anyone any idea whether it is still around or even heading back towards flight?

Regards,

BL

[Wander00]

Sorry Coff, seems some confusion between a 70 years old (me) and an 80+ year old - he had not flown Balliols, but knew guys that had, and had flown a Tempest V five times.

Quote from his e-mail - "Those who did fly them (Balliols) all confirmed that they were a lot of fun. I did fly the Tempest Mk V about five times at Sylt in Germany"

Pity that, had all the promise of an interesting continuation of the thread

Best. W.

[Haraka]

Haraka Senior was Chief Defects Engineer at Hunting P. in the 50's and had responsibility for the Provost ( not "Piston" please- have some respect).
One feature not widely advertised in the early days was the high number of students chopped for "Air sickness" on the type.
Investigation revealed that fuel fumes were creeping back along the top fuselage skin and under the canopy from the fuel vent. This was not noticed at the time by the hours hardened instructors who rarely suffered. .
The solution IIRC ( it was many years ago) was to reposition this to the top of the fin .

[rlsbutler]

My course did its night flying at Spitalgate because Barkston Heath's runway was being resurfaced in the summer of 1960.

That meant a goose-neck flare path. Although it seems strange now, I think we operated beside a single line of the flares rather than onto a conventional flarepath.

We were all aware of the fuel vent at the very rear of the fuselage. Since the grown-ups did not seem to think this was a fire risk, we students talked a lot of igniting the fuel deliberately.

I made a couple of timid attempts, but bottled out - not for fear of bursting into flames but for fear of the trouble I might get into for trampling the flarepath.

[CoffmanStarter]

W00 ... Many thanks for trying ... Sorry I didn't pick-up with you before now :ok:

[aw ditor]

risbutler

Also did PP' Nights' off the Spitalgate Goosenecks but 5 years earlier. The good citizens of Grantham turned off their street lights at midnight causing some confusion. ISTR we had a proper traditional two line flarepath' with AAIs'. We missed the Balliol by one Term', which given its accident record at Shiny Palace was probably a good thing. See the good Colin Cummings "Category Five" book. It was a bit of a jump' to go from the Chippie to the Balliol with its propensity to torque stall, and I was told with its Merlin and four bladed Prop. it went downhill faster than the Grantham express train to Kings Cross.

A.D.

[Wander00]

Coff - pas de problem. W

[smujsmith]

From a techie point of view,

When I did my apprentice training at Halton, the Piston Provost was the "basic airframe". I remember it for being the only aircraft I ever worked on where you could cross connect the elevator controls easily. Just to explain, most aircraft had flying control runs where adjacent cable couplings were "gendered" to prevent such a mistake. I remember well, connecting, rigging and doing range of movement checks on a PP early in my training. Including a pat on the back from Chiefy, "instructor". It only came to light because we worked out, after the event, that a pull back on the control column means the elevator moves up not down.

Smudge

[aw ditor]

Further to my 32' above (sorry for drift), my well qualified informant states that the College "lost" 18 Balliols in 20 months or, 5 College Terms. This would be in the early to mid 1950s', No. 64 Entry bearing the brunt.

[Fareastdriver]

In the mid seventies the Apprentices School attached to 23 MU at Aldergrove was folding. They had a collection of aircraft consisting of a Devon, two Vampire T11s and a Provost T1 that were runners. The Vampires and Provost were used for taxiing practice so were fully mobile.
I had had a kick around their blister hanger before as the Provost was an ex Tern Hill example that I had previously flown.

The aircraft had been sold. The Vampires to an American concern that refurbished T11s into two seat jet tourers, John Travolta had one, and the Provost to some outfit in the south of England. I was asked if I would like to do the final engine runs on it before it was dismantled and packed off.

It was fully serviceable apart from the hood seal and the clock. The hanger was being cleaned out so all the aircraft were crowded together outside and the Provost was pointing directly at the Devon some five yards away. Chiefy was beside me with the ground running notes which differed slightly from the SOPs I used when I was a kid.

I demonstrated the left over to the right hand throttle technique to keep the control stick back, ran the primer for six seconds and it started first bang!!!!!. We then went through the entire gambit with mag drops, CSU checks and the final exhilarating full power 3000 rpm +8 boost with the long blue flame coning out of the exhaust.

Come the final shutdown and as I wished it a fortunate future something was nagging me about the run. I thought of it that evening. When we did full power runs at Tern Hill we had chained chocks and a couple of airman draped over the tailplane. A flick of the rudder would dismiss them when you had finished. We had had nothing but a pair of folding chocks. If the aircraft had jumped those the propeller would have chopped its way though the Devon's fuselage before I could have reacted.

It didn't so it was a nice afternoon.

The American who had bought the Vampires was disgusted with the CAA because they wouldn't let him fly his Vampires to the States.

[Knucklehead]

This thread brings back happy memories of flying the PP from Barkston Heath in '58. Thanks to the Sandys axe our instructors were mainly ex 2 TAF Venom pilots. Far from being depressed by their new role they were most enthusiastic and made our flying most interesting. Examples were LL battle formation below 250'msd and aerobatic 'avalanches'. Eventually the powers that be pointed out that flick manoeuvres were prohibited.

Our relief landing ground was the large grass airfield at Spitalgate. Often up to six solo students would be in the circuit. This led to a bemused local controller telephoning OC flying and suggesting that four students carrying out line abreast roller landings was not a good idea. Occasionally we would also rendezvous away from prying eyes and attempt to dog fight. Enough said.

The down side was IF. We wore blue goggles behind amber screens and flew in Stygian gloom. The vagaries of the air driven AH allied to yaw with power changes resulted in sheer torture. Fortunately my QFI 'Clem' Clements would book us out for GH and then sit patiently through my ham fisted attempts at IF. I owe him my continued flying career.

With 550 HP the PP had a similar performance to the Harvard but was easier to fly. When we started training, the Alvis Leonides radial's tendency to blow pots limited boost to zero. When cleared to plus 8, acceleration during a short field take off was most impressive and would leave a JP3 standing. On reflection this was not difficult!

There were a few 'gotchas' Over enthusiastic application of the brakes when stopping could pitch the aircraft onto its nose with a bent propeller and shock loaded engine. Failure to monitor oil temperature controlled by a manual shutter could incur the righteous wrath of our line 'chiefy'. The aircraft also did not have a constant speed prop. Fine pitch was used for take off and coarse pitch set for cruise. Tragically we lost a course member who overshot from a low off field practice force landing with coarse pitch still set and torque rolled into the ground.

Supervision then was a little lax. A good example was the QFI Who demonstrated tactical low flying to his student by flying down the main LMS railway line from Grantham to London. Very low in a cutting he failed to spot the wires ahead and above him and took them away with the fin. Unfortunately the wires controlled the railway's signalling system so traffic came to a halt for some hours. After his court martial the luckless QFI was sent to Cyprus where he flew Chipmunks on anti EOKA patrols.

The bus journeys from the 'buildings' to and from Barkston were a good indication of morale. On the way there the atmosphere was very light hearted. On our return we were more thoughtful as we contemplated the joys of drill and academics.

[rlsbutler]

This thread opened with a call for the instructor's handbook.

I hope RBA/BY already has the pilot's notes, because I well remember it was very severe about the risk of the inverted spin. There had to be a bogey to think about and that was it. It goes without saying a duel aircraft got into one in our last Provost term - they came up on the R/T (I think while still in the throes) yet came back chastened but alive.

Actually we ought to have been more worried by losing one of our number (solo, very soon after we were all going solo) when his prop flew off. This never became a teaching topic, so students like me scarcely gave it another thought. Sadly I can nearly remember his name, but it escapes me at the moment.

Our instructors were a generation later than aw ditor's, from the Hunters of Jever and Sylt. My first two terms were with a very boyish pilot - I was very surprised to learn only ten years later that he was old enough to retire as a Sqn Ldr. He was great fun, but I was lucky to be put with another instructor before the serious flying tests started. He enlarged his fun reputation very slightly in the early days of the Jet Provost, when my year was at Cranwell proper. There is a brief period during the JP take-off when the undercarriage doors are positioned vertically downwards. He used this period to foreshorten them considerably; noone else seems to have thought of doing that. Sadly, he bought it a prang in Canada, I think in the 1970s. Come to think of such things, my fellow student under this instructor later killed himself carelessly demonstrating a JP in up-country Malaysia.

If the fun was due to run out, we did not know at the time. Nor did our flight commanders. When all the Final Handling Tests had been done, a lucky selection of the course was briefed to fly entirely solo in a last launch of the available fleet. I was not one of them, possibly because I did not have the imagination properly to use such a dizzy gift. I can though imagine the instructors in their crewroom, and their sardonic sweepstake on how many aircraft would come back !

[NutherA2]

KH

The aircraft also did not have a constant speed prop. Fine pitch was used for take off and coarse pitch set for cruise.
My Provost Course was at Feltwell in 1954/55, when the aircraft we had were brand new. As I remember it the propeller was fitted with a CSU, but I had to dig out my Pilot’s Notes to ensure my elderly memory wasn’t giving trouble; on Page 7 I found:

INTRODUCTION
The Provost T 1 is an all-metal, low-wing monoplane
powered by a 550 b.h.p. Leonides 126 engine driving a
three-bladed, constant speed propeller. It has a fixed
undercarriage.

Checks during a PFL included selecting the propeller to fully coarse for the glide in an actual emergency, but fully fine for the PFL and overshoot; presumably your unfortunate colleague overlooked the second bit?

[Fareastdriver]

I will concur with Nuther A2 that it had a constant speed prop.

After his court martial the luckless QFI was sent to Cyprus where he flew Chipmunks on anti EOKA patrols
That must have been Hell!!

When the Valiants were grounded in 1964 we squadron co-pilots were issued with a Chipmunk so that we could maintain flying practice. Our one had previously seen service in Cyprus on the aforementioned anti-EOKA patrols. To this end it had a full green/grey camouflage finish with a light grey underside.

We now had our own baby Spitfire.

[polecat2]

When the Valiants were grounded in 1964 we squadron co-pilots were issued with a Chipmunk so that we could maintain flying practice.

Ah, that explains the markings on the Chipmunk that inhabited the Rect Flt hangar at Cranwell around 1966/67. It had the 90 Sqn green pennant (90 having been a Valiant squadron) on the fin and the inscription "Thud'n'Blunder" on the fuselage beneath the canopy. Can't remember the serial number.

Polecat

[CoffmanStarter]

Don't suppose you chaps have any pics of those Chipmunks to share ? Even if only B&W :ok:

[teeteringhead]

To this end it had a full green/grey camouflage finish with a light grey underside.

We now had our own baby Spitfire. Like the one(s) at Wallop, aka "Spitmunk"!

[diginagain]

Also unkindly referred-to as the 'Chipfire'.

[CoffmanStarter]

Like the one(s) at Wallop, aka "Spitmunk"!

Correct me if I'm wrong but the AAC had a Brown/Green camo scheme ... not the Grey/Green mentioned ... :ok:

[polecat2]

Sorry Coff, wish I had some photos.:(

[Fareastdriver]

It had the 90 Sqn green pennant (90 having been a Valiant squadron) on the fin

It was WP 850, because my log book says so. I believe that it is still in existence in the USA, once operated by a test pilots school.

[Lima Juliet]

Coff

You are correct...

http://www.airteamimages.com/pics/147/147879_800.jpg

http://www.abpic.co.uk/images/images/1385071M.jpg

http://www.abpic.co.uk/images/images/1208742M.jpg

Brown/Green it is!

LJ

[CoffmanStarter]

Thanks Leon :ok:

Now a pic of a Grey/Green RAF camo scheme would rare :ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

FED ... WP850 was also one of the Chipmunks we had based in Berlin :ok:

[RetiredBA/BY]

Back to the PP ! This project is far from dead, the machine is U/S at the moment with a cracked cylinder head. As soon as it's fixed we will be doing the survey and test flight, then decision time !

If it goes ahead, won't be offering shares in her as I now have a prospective pilot to share the PP with, with all the right experience so it'll just be the two of us.

However, if it all comes to fruition I will be delighted to fly others in it, just share the cost of fuel (if the CAA still allows that ) the magic of the big radial will be free !

Fortunately I am ex JP QFI (ex SORF at Manby) so converting to the PP should be straightforward and, ironically, just the reverse of some of the piston to jet conversions we did at Manby !

(and it doesn't have those b....y heel brakes like my old Luscombe !)

[aw ditor]

Talking of brakes, suggest you don't be too vigorous with them if and when taxying over rough surfaces. A number came to grief on North Airfield at Cranwell in the mid 50s'. Although this may have mentioned before, it really happens! As you probably know, Shuttleworth have a PP in unusual colours', their resident PP Pilot may be able to help but then I suspect I may be teaching my granny..... .

[gopher01]

Further to Smudges comments on PPs at Halton ( and yes I do know you and you know me) I too was there with the PPs and was chased round the airfield by them as some of the resting Entry commanders would taxi them round while those on the Airfield training element of the Apps training would be introduced to Marshalling live aircraft. The pilots were briefed to do exactly what the App would tell them to do as long as it was safe which certainly produced some hysterical moments as long as you weren't the one doing the marshalling.
At a later date as a chiefy at Abingdon I supplied Adour spares to a Mate from Laarbruch for the Jags used for ground running training who was responsible for the then current aircraft used for the marshalling practice and as a Quid pro Quo was invited to taxi the JPs for the Apps, a rather interesting day spent veering round the pan and down a rather narrow piece of road which had a marked degree of camber. It was easier taxying a Herc, at least you had a steering wheel!

[NutLoose]

I did my taxy training with a Pembroke at Saints, then we all got a lift back to the hangar in it, the whole course LOL, crammed as far fwd as we could get to stop it sitting on its tail.

[NutLoose]

http://www.iaopa.eu/mediaServlet/storage/gamag/aug07/p38-41.pdf

provost

[obnoxio f*ckwit]

My father learned to fly on PP at Ternhill for his National Service, I at Shawbury in helicopters quite a few (!) years later.

It was only after some time reminiscing about various exercises and flights in the local area that we realised we were both talking about the same place, having both flown circuits at Chetwynd, just 40 years apart!

[smujsmith]

PP in Camouflage,

Try this;

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b572/smujsmith/f84106aed338ee6d943a6672b35b209f_zps5d673ddd.jpg

Smudge

[Wander00]

Don't know why but always found the PP and attractive aeroplane - always near the top of my bucket list

[CoffmanStarter]

Wander00 ... I'm with you here :ok:

Equally I wonder what the handling between the Piston Provost and the BP Balliol was like ? What were they like to spin ? I know I've asked this before ... but live in hope that someone has had hands-on both aircraft :8

[aw ditor]

I'll ask me mate'! (ex 66 Entry)

[Wander00]

Lucky me doing Command Accounts inspection at BD got to fly in the front of the Harvard - now that WAS an experience

[binbrook]

Balliol and Provost - chalk and cheese, I'd have said, although I did only 30 hours Manby refresher on the PP. They certainly looked similar, except from head-on, and what looked exactly like a Balliol with a leg stuck up one day became a Provost without a leg (which had snapped off) when it turned towards us. The move from Chipmunk to Balliol was certainly a jump (although no worse I suppose than Tiger to Harvard) and what delayed first solo on type for me at least was a complete inability to keep straight on a roller (for T/O of course full right rudder trim had been set). And although derated the Merlin could still induce a torque-stall, and one of the monthly 'essentials' was a practice-and-recovery not below 4000'. It was certainly big for a trainer, and after three accidents in succession (Friday, Saturday morning, and Monday I think, with the Saturday a fatal) the next briefing ended with an exhortation to remember that we had "4 tons of aeroplane strapped to your a@%$s" - people were still talking about acceptable training risks. Conversion to jets (Vampires, which gathered speed rather than accelerated, and didn't swing) seemed relatively easy (IF was another story!).

[binbrook]

Too many "certainly". Please delete 2/3 - your choice!

[brakedwell]

My instructor at Ternill in 1955/6 was a real character who flew Spitfires during WW2. His family owned a dairy farm near Wem, so naturally he was officer i/c of the station pig farm, which may explain why I don't remember a fuel/vent/fumes problem as he normally flew in a pair of very smelly wellies reeking of pigsh*t. His beret was always down at the back of his head rather than on the right side and he used to check his cattle were OK from the air on dual sorties. The Provost seemed a big powerful beast to an eighteen year old who couldn't even drive a car. The Vampire was a piece of doddle in comparison.

[Rosevidney1]

I agree with bakedwell about the Provost seeming to be a powerful beast for an 18 year old but the Vampire was a doddle in comparison? I found that it just didn't want to slow down without using the air brakes when the throttle was pulled back. The dear old Provost didn't need air brakes!

[4Greens]

I had an instructor who hit some wires low flying illegally. A possible Court Martial offence. He flew back and when he landed he jammed the brakes on in the landing roll and pitched his PP on its nose and damaged its prop etc. Shouted at for a bad landing but no Court Martial

[Fareastdriver]

I also did the Provost/Vampire route. On the passing out parade the Reviewing Officer, on presenting me with my wings, asked me what it was like to fly jets.

"No problem," I replied, " just like driving a car with automatic transmission."

He probably went through my paperwork and underlined the word 'Valiant' on my posting notice.