Career In Avaiation - What's the best way?

[Pilot94]

Hi everyone, to start of with I have to say I didn't know where to post this question since it's about more than one thing, but hopefully you guys here will be helpful.

I'm 19 and a CAA/FAA PPL holder and at the moment I'm at "Hour Building" stage before continuing with my training.

I heard a lot about how hard it is to get an Airline job these days and since I have only started training I want your help to let me chose best option for me to have a greater chance of getting in to an Airline. My original plan was to go modular and apply for an airline but a lot of people say I don't have a lot of chance to get a job at the end of that, so it's just a waste of money so I'm not sure what I should do.

So my choices are:
- Keep doing what I'm doing and continue modular before looking for a Job.

- Go to University from September to do Aircraft Engineering Degree, then after university continue modular flight training and start looking for a Job.

- Go modular but do as much as possible at good flying schools, as I should be able to afford to do integrated ATPL's at OAA (I'm on about just the exams) then some good school for MEL-CPL if anyone can recommend one?

- Apply to R.A.F. for Flight Crew.

The optimal goal is to get paid for flying an Airplane so I would really appreciate your opinion guys, as my decision time is approaching like a concord. Thanks in advance.

[Pace]

Firstly just check you can get a first class medical then identify what areas of commercial flying you want to do? Airline or other.
If its Airline modular or not it will cost money.
My son was very focused and resisted all advice from his school to go to university.
He went through the modular route via Oxford and then applied to CTC who were closely associated with EasyJet.
He was selected and type rated on the 737 and very lucky that EasyJet took on 6 more young pilots through CTC in the recession.
He was one of those 6 and at the age of 20 was right seat on a 737.
The Engineering option at University sounds a good option as a back up but keep focused on what you want to do.

Pace

[mikehallam]

Learn to spell key words !

mike hallam.

[Pilot94]

Thanks for your help Mike Hallam. Can you point them out for me?

Thanks Pace, I have a CLASS 1 medical.

And basically I want to end up in an Airline at the end of my training. Such as Easyjet, Ryanair, FedEx or whatever will be hiring at the time. I just want to make sure that with my Modular training this can be achieved. And I know it will cost money, but modular I can manage, I just don't want to spend like 90,000 on integrated 18 months training just to get the job.

[A and C]

The airlines are in the business of selling seats and have over the last few years taken this policy to the point at which they sell all the sell on the aircraft except the captains.

Cabin crew have to pay for their training and so do FO's so showing a profit for both the airline and training provider.

Some of these people have got the trainee pilot fully line trained and then put them on a zero hours contract giving them very little post line training flying. This has resulted in people being unable to pay the training debt and having to declare personal bankruptcy.

All the training with most of these programs will come for your taxed income, one company ( the sadly long gone XL airways) did cook the contract so that the new pilots were kept on a lower pay grade until the debt was repaid, the balance of the pay being used to pay the training debt as the trainee pilots never received the money in was not subject to income tax so saving the trainee pilots 30% of their training costs.

The RAF want officers first and pilots second so you need to show that you want to be an RAF officer first and a pilot ( a very close) second, you can also end up in some very unpleasant places, but on the up side the pay is OK and the training is of the very first order.

You can try the self financed modular route, this is the cheapest civil way to get a pilot job but you have to fight total rubbish that is spouted by those offering integrated training about the quality of your training ( and by inference you!) that they use to sell their programs to the airlines.

Good luck with your quest but what ever you choose go in with your eyes wide open.

[Pilot94]

Thanks alot "A and C" your reply was very helpful! Just so I don't get in to the debt situation I'm paying as I go, and this way I should be able to finish everything within 3 years without having any loans.

I do prefer Airline over R.A.F but R.A.F gets you the job definitely, compared to the modular F/O. So this is the hardest choice in front of me: To risk it, go modular and hope to get a job, or to go R.A.F and get the job but not the always wanted one.

[Dave Clarke Fife]

Thanks for your help Mike Hallam. Can you point them out for me?

Think he's alluding to the third word of your opening title

[Pilot94]

LOL, "a" and "i", simple mistake when typing fast.

[gasax]

There was a time when airline pilot were regarded as highly trained professionals and paid and treated accordingly.

This is all in the past tense in terms of someone your age. Do you really want to be a well paid bus driver?

I've often been asked why I did not turn my hobby into a living. The answer is that I could not take the cut in pay. Now I'm comparatively lucky in terms of the industry I work in and the rates of pay. However do you really have any idea what you want to do to earn a living. At 19 I certainly did not. And more to the point I know a fair number of airline pilots who pretty much hate their jobs - but are unable to do much else which would earn them anything like the same amount of money.

So the obvious course of action is to get a degree. Without that you could not even get a job flipping burgers. You need a degree to be at least equal with your contemporaries.

The time to get it will also allow you to mature a little and see something of the world. You may 'get God' or some other inspiration, or you may see something which really captures your imagination.

But you may be like me and simply see a little further and be able to do that - because you have the qualifications and the interest. There is nothing more frustrating than being excluded from things due to not having the 'right' background.

As far as the services are concerned leaving them is not easy, I've worked with a few people who have done that from senior ranks - the transition has been difficult and not one of them has remained married to their service wives.... difficult transitions!

So get a degree, it is vital these days, without it, forget higher paid employment unless you want to be a mobile phone salesman or something similar. Understand just what being airline pilot for Ryanair actually entails, flying is the least part of it! Decide what you really want to do.

[Pace]

Gasax

What a miserable post and how arrogant to tell him to decide what he really wants to do ?
AIRLINE PILOT !!! What is wrong with that ? As for not knowing what he wants to do at 19 ? My son was right seat in an EasyJet 737 a year later at 20 and going through a Captaincy procedure at present in the A320 !
As for a degree opening the doors to all manner of things ? It just gets you an interview and shows you are reasonably intelligent no more especially in arts subjects.

As for the RAF ? Do we still have one ?

Pace

[JDA2012]

At this point I'm going to chip in - I actually know the OP (Hi!:)) and have deliberately waited to post until some other opinions were given, as I am also new to the flying game, but do have some experience in other areas which I feel I should share to balance things out a bit.

As you can see on the left, I am 31. I wish I was 19, as what I really want to do is join the military as a pilot, and for that I'm too old, for the RAF anyway. I want it enough that I'm considering emigrating to one of the short list of countries that would take me at my age, which would be a significant effort in itself even before going through any selection process. As such, if you're at all interested in the RAF, I'd apply now rather than wish you had later in life. However, if it's just a route to an airline seat, there way be other ways which are better suited to you.

As you know, I'm also pursuing the more accessible route to flying of paying my way through a modular course here in the UK (and also got my Class 1 before starting); I find integrated courses over-priced and besides this I do not have the sort of cash to pay up front, nor (having a mortgage) am I keen on a very large loan. In the meantime, if any sponsorships become available, I'll apply for those, as having someone else fund my training and offer me a flying role inside the industry would be a real bonus. I do have to balance that against having to pack my job in to train full-time, which does make me wonder whether it is better just to work through the week and fly at the weekend, getting a CPL/ATPL along the way so that I can keep an alternate career going whilst awaiting a job opportunity - this leads me to my next point.

I do regret not pursuing a career in aviation earlier in my life when more options were open to me. At the same time, I am conscious that I can still make a go of it if I choose, and am glad that I currently have a career that means I can afford to fund my own flying. I should point out that I do not have a degree; I went to university for two years (a good one, studying a "hard" science course) but took a look at the course, where it was going to get me, what that would pay and how long it would take, and decided I'd do better just to leave and get working. I do not know what others rank as a decent salary, and I am not looking to boast, particularly as I am certain I'm on small potatoes compared to some here, but regarding the statement "So get a degree, it is vital these days, without it, forget higher paid employment" - I brought in over £55k last year; I do work in the mobile phone industry but not as a salesman ;).

I've talked too much about me, and not enough about you. However, on the whole, I've seen a little of life and the world, and now wish I'd gone with my gut earlier. If you want to fly for an airline, you can either keep steadily progressing via the modular route or try to get onto a more direct route. I do expect to be able to get a job via the modular route eventually, through simple perseverence - it has got me this far! It may take a bit longer of course...still, always better to regret doing something than not doing it!

Not sure I have actually helped at all, but may assist you in knowing you don't want to be my age and still looking at these decisions :ok:.

[talkpedlar]

Before I get flamed, P74, I sincerely wish you well.

1 Forget the RAF route.. that is for candidates who want nothing else... they'll have the measure of you out at OASC in minutes!

2 You are either poorly educated or extremely careless.. your thread is littered with grammatical errors..particularly indiscriminate and inappropriate use of capital letters and speech-marks...

Come on buddy.. take your time, take care and get it right!

Cheers, TP

[Genghis the Engineer]

I agree with talkpedlar about the RAF. That route is about a career in the RAF and not a second option to anything.

I would say something similar about an aerospace engineering degree. You don't have sufficient fascination with the subject to get the title right, and aero-eng will cost £50k, 3-4 years of your life and massive levels of dedication to the subject. (And grade A or B A-levels in maths and physics).

G

[Pilot94]

Thanks for your help guys, and please excuse my grammar and punctuation as English is my second Language. I do tend to type fast and careless.

[flyelmoair]

Give him a break folks!!! He's not applying for a job through this RUMOUR NETWORK!! I'm sure if he was writing a CV or cover letter he'd give greater care and attention!

I always wanted to pursue a career in aviation and chose not to at a younger age. So I joined the RAF, got some great life experience, matured a lot quicker than I would've working in Tesco, gained some valuable contacts in the industry and gained a lot of aviation related experience in the branch I chose. And now I'm at a time in my life where I'm older, bolder, wiser, more mature, and financially stable to undertake modular training.

If I, after completing modular training, apply for an airline job it will shine through in how I present myself at the interview as to how suited i'll be for the job. Not by how many years I sat in a classroom at Uni and how many degrees I have coming out of my rear end.

Do what you want to do! Research as much as you can by trawling through this RUMOUR NETWORK for people's perceptions on the aviation industry and what's best to do. The internet is filled with websites detailing people's experiences and routes into that dream job. I've spent the last 4 years looking through various different routes and only just feel comfortable undertaking it all. Mummy hasn't helped me, daddy certainly hasn't helped me, it's all me, all my own determination.

All the best Pilot94, just don't rush into anything!

(Standby for know-it-all's to correct some grammatical errors, time wasters!!)

[gasax]

Thanks or the comment Pace - how come your son, whom you are doubtless very proud, did not post? Could it be he sees them only as a stepping stone?

I know two guys who work for the LOCOs, they are of a certain age and have the huge disadvantage (as seen by their employer!) of having worked for in the their terms 'proper airlines'. Their view of LOCOs is much less than flattering, they largely hate answering to 'managers' who still have spots and communicate by email or text.

Such is working for the Locos.

I would certainly accept that the best a degree will get you is an interview. Pray tell how you are going to get a half decent job without even getting to the interview? If there is a method of doing that then I'd love to pass it on to my daughter who is in a similar sort of position. Having said that at least she texts in English....

So she is going to get a degree, her career choices are much more open because of that. Hence if her plans change then it is not the end of the world. My own career has essentially three distinct elements, which is in no way unusual, the key is not to pigeon hole yourself into something where there are no other options. If you do that the only way out is down - in terms of money, aspirations and satisfaction

[Pilot.Lyons]

I would say something similar about an aerospace engineering degree. You don't have sufficient fascination with the subject to get the title right

G

Wow G thats a bit harsh, you surprise me with that comment! Maybe it was a genuine typing error? We allmake them from tome to time :)

[A and C]

The university degree has become degraded by the number of people who have degrees in the fluffy non science subjects and the dumbing down of the last Labour government.

It is clear that people who should not have got a degree have them so they have gone from a "must have" to thing to put on the form in most cases. The bottom line is that if you are just doing a degree with the hope of getting a pilot job forget it.

With the volatility of the industry getting an aviation practical skill is probably the best safety net you can have and it will help you in the search for a pilot job.
Very few people want to get dirty hands these days so there is a shortage of Licensed Engineers so that would be a good place to start a pilot career, it offers transferable skills for both piloting and other engineering functions outside aviation if the aviation business goes really sour.

As far as airline employers go ( that offer a UK base) would offer a list for who you would want to work for in terms of T & C's that they offer and job satisfaction. ( I know there are omissions but this covers the major players)

1 British Airways
2 Virgin.
3 Monarch, Thompson, Norwegian.
4 Easyjet
5 jet 2, Flybe.
6 Ryanair.

[Pace]

Gasax

A degree is no longer a passport to success or to a job or to wealth creation it's a prerequisite to an interview with the other 100 applicants especially if the degree is in the arts.
Ok if your going into law or medicine that takes specialist degrees training up over several years to become a Doctor etc but that itself is a long term career choice as is aviation!
Most wealthy people I know have good business brains and most no degrees!
The degree ones end up as teachers
As for my son Yes he was flying right seat with Easy Jet at 20 but is not a prolific poster here at Pprune

Pace

[Pilot.Lyons]

I wish you were my dad pace.... I would be flying now too!

Instead i was dragged up and my parents only cared if the social got involved.

I can only fly for pleasure now as driving instructor wages now days won't allow anything more

Better to fly than not, just wished i could do it more

[Ds3]

Completely agree with Pace there. A degree is vital if it is a prerequisite to a specific career choice, such as aero-eng. Otherwise, a degree is a great way to end up with a lot of debt for very little improvement in employment prospects.

Three years industry experience working in your chosen field can, in many cases, be infinitely more valuable than a degree. Certainly when I'm recruiting in to my field I value and experienced candidate significantly higher than one with a degree that may not even be relevant.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Wow G thats a bit harsh, you surprise me with that comment! Maybe it was a genuine typing error? We allmake them from tome to time :)

Maybe. However, I've done two aero-eng degrees and taught on these courses at several universities. I've seen too many students drift into an aero-eng degree because it seemed like a good idea at the time but had no passion for the subject or genuine interest in aerospace engineering as a subject. A lot will drop out at the end of their first year *only* £15k or so in debt, but a great many more graduate through some native ability to pass examinations but little other real subject knowledge or understanding. The majority of the rest thankfully will fortunately just go and do non-jobs such as accountancy or IT where they can do little damage. I talked with one recently.

But basically yes, I'm harsh to anybody who thinks that if all else fails, maybe they'll go and study aerospace engineering. It's certainly a silly (£50k in debt and 3+ years) "en-route" for somebody whose only interest is becoming a pilot. If somebody wants to be a pilot, really wants to be a pilot, then a backup qualification that allows them to make short term money is useful, but an engineering degree is a massive and pointless distraction.

Very simply, pilots should want to be pilots, aerospace engineers should want to be aerospace engineers. Don't study one to become the other at least not to a high level. Self study of aero-eng for interest, or a PPL for an engineer, are certainly healthy. But £50k and 3 years worth?

G

[Lance Murdoch]

A difficult question to answer because there is no right or wrong answer. One route that may work well for one individual may be disastrous for another so all you can do is solicit as many opinions and experiences as possible and make a decision.

Unless its what you really want to do I would not apply for the R.A.F. There are a lot of very good candidates competing for a small number of places therefore they can pick and choose who they take.

With regards to university there are degrees and there are degrees. Do not go for the easy and fashionable subjects. If its easy then by definition anyone can do it so your obtaining that degree does not really prove anything. A maths/science based degree from a good university will show that you have a high level of numeracy and literacy as well as teach you to think logically. These are all skills that are useful in aviation as well as many other fields. Above all choose a subject that will interest you.

I decided to pursue a well paid career in a job that interests me and use the money that I would have paid for airline training to fly for leisure.

[Pilot.Lyons]

Wow G thats a bit harsh, you surprise me with that comment! Maybe it was a genuine typing error? We allmake them from tome to time :)

Maybe. However, I've done two aero-eng degrees and taught on these courses at several universities. I've seen too many students drift into an aero-eng degree because it seemed like a good idea at the time but had no passion for the subject or genuine interest in aerospace engineering as a subject. A lot will drop out at the end of their first year *only* £15k or so in debt, but a great many more graduate through some native ability to pass examinations but little other real subject knowledge or understanding. The majority of the rest thankfully will fortunately just go and do non-jobs such as accountancy or IT where they can do little damage. I talked with one recently.

But basically yes, I'm harsh to anybody who thinks that if all else fails, maybe they'll go and study aerospace engineering. It's certainly a silly (£50k in debt and 3+ years) "en-route" for somebody whose only interest is becoming a pilot. If somebody wants to be a pilot, really wants to be a pilot, then a backup qualification that allows them to make short term money is useful, but an engineering degree is a massive and pointless distraction.

Very simply, pilots should want to be pilots, aerospace engineers should want to be aerospace engineers. Don't study one to become the other at least not to a high level. Self study of aero-eng for interest, or a PPL for an engineer, are certainly healthy. But £50k and 3 years worth?

G

I totally agree with you G

[thing]

Just to reiterate what others have said I would forget about the RAF. Being involved in the periphery as it were I know that you wouldn't stand a cat in hells chance at interview if you thought of the RAF as a last chance saloon, obviously you wouldn't say that but it would shine through like a searchlight. Selection boards are't made up of idiots and they can afford to be incredibly choosy these days.

[Saab Dastard]

non-jobs such as accountancy or IT where they can do little damage.

Oi, G, less of the disparaging remarks about IT - you'll be having a go at Apple Macs and iphones next! Remember where you are... ;)

SD

[cockney steve]

Oi, G, less of the disparaging remarks about IT

Of my 3 kids, 2 are in IT !!!! Both ducked Uni and were self-taught, neither has been out of work involuntarily, neither stayed at Uni. when they realised they actually knew more and had a deeper understanding than their "tutors" both on good salaries, one local, married , own house and car...other in London, single and back since January from a 6-month holiday riding a bike down the length of the Andes!

Daughter did a masters in Astrophysics and went on to a doctorate in Particle physics...she had a fascinating time , visited many countries on symposiums with CERN and designed chips for "Atlas" experiment in the Large Hadron Collider.....wonderful for contacts, buggerall use for a job!

walked straight into a consultancy -post (IT and Project -Management)
currently seconded to MOD ...her firm ONLY take on Graduates.

here's the thing....she's on terrific money , but the boys were earning for about 6 years before she started and in that time, they have both established themselves in the industry.

A"fluffy" subject is a total waste of time and money and I know of no employer outside of fluffy arty farty stuff , who gives any credence whatsoever to such degrees....on the contrary, it marks your card as a follower,skiver and liability.
A good, solid degree can mark you as a person of self-discipline, intelligence, and initiative,with a good work ethic.

No. 2 son is "thinking" about doing a degree, just to prove he can!...he sees no financial advantage and not much of a challenge. :confused:

Just my take on things!

[Genghis the Engineer]

No. 2 son is "thinking" about doing a degree, just to prove he can!...he sees no financial advantage and not much of a challenge.

Much the same reason that I did my CPL :E


I don't dispute that IT people are well paid - but, well, it's not aviation is it.

G

[abgd]

Perhaps it's not quite the definition of IT you had in mind, but bad programming has caused a whole host of spectacular disasters.

Software Bugs - Software Glitches (http://www5.in.tum.de/~huckle/bugse.html)
RISKS-LIST: RISKS-FORUM Digest (http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/)

I used to write drug prescriptions for patients using a computer system that under certain circumstances would sneakily change the name on the top of the script when you printed it out, and that sometimes omitted medicines at random.

[Pilot.Lyons]

I think common sense will get you through life a lot easier than a degree..

As for my children?

Well one is starting infants next month and the other has just said dada at 5 months old....

And they dont have degrees

😄