cabair ripoff or bar room bull ?

[A and C]

The other night wile propping up a bar I was told that C*bair would not rent an aircraft to a holder of a frozen ATPL for a trip to Le Touquet without an instructor going along to perform a "cross channel check".

Can this be true ? or is it just bar room bull ?.

[FlyingForFun]

Can't speak for C*bair, but I do know that West London Aero Club have a similar rule: no flying to France until you've had a cross-channel check-out with an instructor.

I asked my instructor to do a cross-channel check-out. Only problem was that she'd never flown cross-channel herself, and didn't know if the rule also applied to instructors! She checked with the CFI, and he gave her a few pointers, then cleared her to do my check-out. But, given that this needed special permission from the CFI - and she was actually an instructor working for the club in question - wouldn't surprise me at all if schools need an ATPL(f) holder to do a check-out.

Have fun!

FFF
-----------

[FNG]

I'd be interested to hear from an instructor who honestly thinks that a properly trained new PPL needs a "cross channel check". My instructor simply gave me a few tips, and suggested that I go with another bloke he had just finished teaching, which I did. Have clubs just got into the habit of requiring these checks? Do their insurers request it? Was there a specific iincident involving a new PPL over water? I recall reading not long ago about a PPL who became disoriented flying to or from the Channel Islands, but his case sounded not dissimilar to other cases of inadvertent IMC/getting lost.

[Stampe]

Every case needs to be looked at individually but bear in mind that a " frozen ATPL" can under the new rules be a very inexperienced pilot with as little as about 160 hours all gained in a structured training enviroment.I like to look at each case individually when renting my companies club aircraft out but don,t generally believe in "cross channel checks" if the individual has "rounded experience" a verbal brief will suffice.An aeroplane has no idea of the level of license held by its pilot its their physical skill and thinking that determines the standard of operation,some of the best pilots I know are very experienced PPLs with the "right attitude".Large clubs of course set rules to protect their operation and of course fulfill their main role revenue generation,small clubs can have more flexibility.

[DFC]

Many clubs have that rule.

IMHO it is only right.

A PPL is a licence to learn. Far better to learn in safety without making mistakes.

If a cross water check is required then it must be more than a mere jolly for the instructor.

The usual format of long briefing(s), pre-flight brief and actual flight followed by post briefing are required.

Long briefings should cover -

Legal aspects of going foreign
Customs, Immigration, Special Branch requirements
ICAO Rules and differences from UK SOPs
Flight Plans
Survival Equipment - requirements and use
Ditching procedures
Survial Aspects
Emergency Signals
Interception Signals
Revision - Basic Radio Nav, GPS, Attitude Flying.
Revision - Passenger Care and Briefing
Aircraft Escape methods and sequence

Short Briefing-

Proposed Flight in Detail planned by the student and checked by the instructor with pointers and changes as required.

Flight Training-

Organising the passing of estimates
Importance of Coast Out and Coast In reports and times.
The visual problems when out of sight of land on hazy days.
Basic instrument flying in conditions of reduced horizon in VMC
Radio Navigation to back up DR
Preparation for and joining procedures
Language problems
Immigration and Customs requirements
Flight Plan and Westher Checks
Departure procedures

Post Flight Briefing.


The whole idea is not merely to do a quick jolly cross the channel but to provide instruction in many areas which are either skimmed over or not covered in the PPL and areas which may have not been practiced if it is a long time since the PPL was completed.

Result- A pilot who can safely and efficiently take an aircraft foreign even if this includes a cross water trip and not just a pilot who can repeat the Le Touquet drag by rote.

DFC

[AC-DC]

Sorry guys, I can't see any difference between flying in the UK or crossing 19m streach of water to LFAT or LFAC. I don't see a need for an instructor on board.

[Jepp]

Well said AC-DC

Some renters wont let you F*rt without an instructor sitting next to you !!

Jepp

[Final 3 Greens]

AC-DC

I would just point out very gently that cross channel conditions can be rather different to the experience over the UK.

e.g. little discernible horizon, sea and sky blended together.

When dealing with an inexperienced pilot, it seems sensible for a club to send an instructor the first time. I was lucky that my FI did a cross channel trip when I was a student and invited me to go along, whereupon he took me through the procedures and how to cope with thedifferent codnition.

I am not going to comment specifically on the individual merits of checking out a particular frozen ATPL, but I found the cross channel flight a great confidence boost and have crossed happily by myself over the subsequent years.

:) Finals

[DFC]

AC DC,

Are you saying that there is no difference between flying outside the UK and the little bit of knowledge about UK flying that the average new PPL has?

OK so only flying across the channel at the shortest hop on a good day may be easy. What about the next trip to say Jersey via ORTAC on a Hazy day. Is that the same?

If your school gave you all the info you required about Special Branch requirements and operating outside the UK etc, then I think that is great. Unfortunately most schoold don't cover the topic in enough detail.

What I am in favour of is schools recognising that a "going foreign" check at one club is good enoygh for them provided it was signed off by an instructor.

Regards,

DFC

[AC-DC]

Finals
You wrote:
"I would just point out very gently that cross channel conditions can be rather different to the experience over the UK.
e.g. little discernible horizon, sea and sky blended together."


I agree with you about the conditions, you can experience them on your second fly when the instructor is not with you, than what? For these conditions you need an IMC, not an Instructor.

I think that the barrier is psychological and not flying difficulty. The clubs use the fear as a nice earner.

[BEagle]

Whilst it's hardly difficult to cross from Dover to Calais per se, there are a number of traps for the unwary in international flights as has already been mentioned. So we also insist that before anyone can hire an ac to fly across the Channel without restriction that they are given a check-out by a FI the first time.

Because as an organisation hiring an ac to an individual we have a Duty of Care, we cover all the legal and admin stuff, the survival aspects and flight planning aspects. We also teach the safe use of GPS on such trips - no-one has ever complained about the requirement and personally I consider it to be essential.

...and we also remind people about the non-validity of the IMC Rating outside the UK FIR and the appropriate continental VFR requirements.

[Final 3 Greens]

AC-DC

I have to disagree with you about your view of the requirement of an IMC rating to cross the channel in hazy VMC conditions.

Surely there is more of a comparison with a night rating where the flight is made in very different visual conditions, but visual conditions nonetheless.

As a non IMC holder I am very comfortable flying in hazy conditions so long as I can see the surface and am legal with respect to visibility.

Having said that, I wouldn't fancy Jersey via ORTAC - the longest routing I have done is DVR KOK and that is within my concentration envelope and also not class A airspace.

So I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

[A and C]

Wile I can see that clubs may well be reluctant to let a PPL holder of across the channel without some further instruction and being sure that the pilot is OK to fly when they meet the conditions of reduced visual referance that has been mentioned above and that the pilot knows the leagal requirments of international flight.

However in this case the pilot was a holder of a CPL/IR (f ATPL) so all the major saftey problems of reduced visibility are not an issue to the holder of an IR as they can clearly fly without outside visual referance.

The ATPL exams have covered the leagal / flight planning issues and wile a diching drill would be usefull most people are happy to take the advice in the CAA saftey sense leaflet as a guide.

So what are we left with as a reason to require a "cross channel check" for the holder of an ATPL(f) ?

[BEagle]

Basically the difference between theory and practice! Of course you can always buy your own aeroplane and then it's up to you. But if you want to hire an aeroplane, then is it surprising that the hirer will want to be certain of proof of actual competency, not just a level of theoretical knowledge?

I would sooner hire an aeroplane to an experienced PPL holder who has demonstrated competency than to any licence holder who hasn't! Particularly to a low-time CPL/IR holder who lacks the experience and judgement to know when supervision is appropriate!

[andrewc]

Pootling down the coast between Lydd and Dorset last
month I was struck by the difficulty of telling where the
sea stopped and the sky started. The conditions were
clear but there was no visual horizon looking out to sea.

I rapidly found myself flying on my instruments...

-- Andrew

[BRL]

andrewc there is a good chance of getting 'sea-mist' when flying along the south coast. Many a time i have gone off on a local VFR flight and the old sea mist has come in all of a sudden. Nothing you can do except land........

[DFC]

Going down the road of "the guy has an ATPL: so they must be able to do it" is not very good from a safety viewpoint.

If one was to use that idea then there would be an end to club checkouts. After all the pilot has a licence.

B747 drivers can have more difficulty than PPLs on such trips because they work in an environment where everything is done for them and they alwas have the support of an ops department to answer any questions.

Anything that imporoves safety must be good.

DFC

[A and C]

DFC I,m told that this guy could rent the aircraft to fly over land but the "check" was required to fly across the channel.

I,m all for saftey but I dont like it IF it used as an excuse to line the pocket.

I would dearly like to know if these reports are true , after all the title of this thread is in fact a question.

[sickBocks]

Wycombe Air Centre insist on this as well.

[Rory5]

I was new group member, & had never crossed the channel. Went with another group member & have been regularly on my own since.

That said, I would not have benn 100% going on my own for the first time.

[A and C]

SB the last time I rented from the wycombe air center I was in almost the same situation as the guy I,m told wanted to rent from c*bair.

WAC did NOT insist on a "cross channel check" all they wanted was a quick check ride with an instructor as I had not flown the BE76 for about 4 months.

The check consisted of an engine failure at about 600ft and an assymetric landing.

In my opinion the WAC had struck the right balance between air safety and cost to the customer.

[QNH 1013]

Its a bit different "Up North". Even a trip to Calais with an instructor is going to be something like 6 hours at dual-rate. The Isle of Man (Special Branch proceedures still apply) is much nearer. The renters round here expect you to have enough sense to find out what the proceedures are, and to talk to pilots who have done similar trips before. If you don't show enough common sense to do that then they won't rent you an aircraft anyway.
All the requirements are published, they're not secret, and there have been many magazine articles which cover all aspects of channel crossing.
The weather in any part of the UK can and does change rapidly sometimes. This is all part of what we study and train for as pilots.
I particularly liked the story of the cross-channel check being performed by an instructor who had never flown across the channel. Now that does sound like it was driven by financial rather than safety considerations.

[The Greaser]

I have a Frozen ATPL and 1500 hours, yet I have never flown across the channel and never would without a checkout with an instructor. In my opinion to have the arrogance to say it is not worth doing implies poor airmanship.

[DFC]

I agree totally that if the instructor has no experience then the whole thing is a waste of time and as already said is simply a case of the organisation and the instructor lining their pockets.

To be honnest, there is probably no real requirment for the actual check to be made across the water.

The course can be done anywhere. This is especially so when one considers that on the day in question, there may be a great horizon and no haze while the next time, there might be a deep haze layer.

Furthermore, there is little point showing someone the finer points of French Customs when their next trip will be to Ireland.

As a safety tool, the whole idea is great. However a once yearly lecture and dip in the local pool is far better than 100 nice day flights across a wide river.

DFC

[AC-DC]

Come on Greaser
You know to fly, you know to read your instruments, you know how to speak on the radio. So what is the difference other than the accent of the controller? Read the regulations for the country you want to fly too study the map and make sure that you are prepared. Flying in France is not the same as in Germany or Holland or in the UK. Do you mean that you have to fly with an instructor every time you fly into a new country? I am not having a go at you, you can do it and you will do it, it is only the fear of the unknown that speaks out. You are welcome to join me anytime you want, I don't have your raitings nor your hours, just email me.

Beagle and other talked about S.B requirements, customs etc. All of this can be and should be done on the ground before take off. You want to make sure that the guy knows his FIR boundary calls and regulation than give him a copy of Bottlang and ask him about it afterwards, match him with someone who did the trip before than the two can cost share. An airfield in France, Germany or Belgium is no different to an airfield in the UK. As a side question, How many clubs provide the renter with an up to date airfield plates, if at all? No, I don’t buy the safety issue for the instructor’s presence, the same can be achieved at a lower cost to the renter.

AC-DC

[BEagle]

Hmmm - I suppose that it would be rather fraudulent for an organisation to insist that you took an FI who'd never been there before AND paid extra for the privilege on your first trip across the Channel. For which you'd feel rightly miffed...

Which is one reason why we charge the same rate Dual or Solo - so it won't cost anyone any more to make their first 'going foreign' flight performing the duties of P1C under the supervision of the FI pilot-in-command. Except that, by that definition, it will be logged as P1C U/S but will be counted in full toward licence experience requirements subject to the certification by the pilot-in-command (see App B to section A of LASORS, Case B).

Plus we deduct the 'drawback' from the hirer's bill to reduce the cost to the hirer yet further.....

[AC-DC]

Beagle
At least you are honest people, but how many like you can be found?

[A and C]

AC-DC you should get an award for the most common sence packed into one short post !.

Quite frankly I am appalled that a holder of a ATPL has not the confidence to cross the channel without a "checkout".

Greaser this is not a slur on you infact I applaud your attitude to flight safety but I have to ask the question "what is the flight training industry doing if after passing an ATPL course a pilot is not confident to cross the channel ?".

[HelenD]

I am still a PPL student but I have had a cross channel lesson. It was my best lesson yet and I found it very worthwhile. I was intruduced to several new things like leaning the mixture and instrument flying, we had to fly back on an IFR flight plan because it was overcast in France. I probably will never get to do that again. The flight was with an instructor who wasnt my usual instructor and I think that was a good thing. I plan to fly to the channel islanda somtime after gaining my PPL and I will take an instructor with me because though I have read the theory of SVFR I would like some practical guidence on it.