Debut UK/EU flight

[TheFirstDohrnPilot]

Hi everyone.

I might be flying my dad to the south of Germany next week in a Cessna 150. I've just passed my PPL, and I haven't even flown in UK/Europe before - I trained in America. I've also never flown a Cessna haha

So I'm a bit apprehensive, as you can imagine. For the first couple of legs down the UK I would probably request a Traffic Service. (In the US I got flight following, which I think is pretty much the same thing, but I've never used any of these UK services in practice yet!). What kind of service would I get when flying through France and Germany? I have no idea what to request from controllers for traffic help.

Also, what happens when I cross borders? Do I need to let German authorities know I will be coming because the airport I would be landing at doesn't have customs...?


Has anyone got experience flying VFR through Europe? Would really appreciate some help, thanks!

PS: Would you recommend buying a GPS? If so which one? I have 1:500,000 charts of UK and Europe, that good to use?

[Keef]

I would think seriously about cancelling your flight to Germany next week, and going to a local flying school for a few hours of conversion training. US methods are very different from European ways.

You need to know about air traffic services in the UK, France, Germany and maybe others; flight plans; customs/police clearance; S&R requirements, and a few other topics. Without that, you are likely to get yourself into trouble or danger.

[BAe 146-100]

Unless you know the owner of a privately owned 150, you will need to be fully checked out in the 150 by a flight instructor, who will judge how much/little training you need to be able to rent that type from the club/school, also many reputable school's will make sure you are fully proficient before allowing you to take one of their aircraft on a land away, particularly overseas.

Like I said unless you know a private owner who is willing to risk lending you his aircraft at this point with your low experience and not knowing really what your doing to go to Germany, chances are (unless your really good at bluffing the school!) you will be going nowhere.

Oh and prepare for a lot of sarcastic replies on this thread. :ok:

[Contacttower]

I think we sometimes make too much of this whole US/UK differences thing.

Vast majority of it can be explained in a few hours and a demo flight or two with a good instructor to experience the whole services outside of controlled airspace thing and stuff like MATZs etc.

However as useful as PPRuNe can be for flight planning purposes if one is coming from the point of view of someone who has only just passed the PPL and has no experience of flying internationally in Europe the best thing to do is to sit down with a very experienced PPL who has plenty of VFR touring time and get him/her to take you through the process in its entirety. Once you have done that you will have a better understanding of whether it is a realistic endeavour or not.

[TheFirstDohrnPilot]

Hmm... I live somewhere where all these good things aren't available. I can't talk to another private pilot, I can't do a few hours at a local flight school, there's nobody to talk to about flying abroad. There's nothing up here! And it's very difficult to find concise, accurate, up-to-date, trustworthy information on the things I need online.

I also don't think that the US/UK difference is that bad, but you're probably right in saying that I should be more familiar with the European ways, for sure.

I can always drive, but what's the fun in that! ;)

[flybymike]

Where are you going to get your C150 from?

[TheFirstDohrnPilot]

Far north aviation, Wick.

[Contacttower]

Have you actually organised the rental? Are they happy with it? Do you not need to do some sort of check out before you take the plane?

I mean quite apart from the fact that it will take you a very long time to get to Germany in a C150 from Wick that is quite a sizable trip that even a lot of experienced PPLs would probably seek planning assistance with if they had no international experience.

I'm not trying to dissuade you as such, because with the right guidance it could be done, just trying to make it clear how many different factors there are to consider and be knowledgeable and proficient with before going. There must be someone local who could help you?

[dera]

Also, if you have never flown a Cessna before, the difference between for example a Piper and a C150/172 is huge, especially on landings.
Going out on a trip like that is verging between pure stupidity, and suicide.

[OhNoCB]

Sorry, it's probably not what you want to here but I agree with other people here saying to postpone for all the same reasons.

If you haven't got the aircraft confirmed yet you must check that the school/club will let you rent without knowing a thing about how you fly. Most will require a club checkout.

You should do some more research and questioning on the UK and European rules and regs. For example, knowing about the schengen area and what it means for your flight. Specifically for your first landing in the EU outside of the UK.

I personally wouldn't be TOO fussed about the differences between pipers and cessnas etc. These are light aircraft and require a knowledge and appreciation that they will andle differently and have their own quirks, but I would say (assuming the rental place lets you rent without a checkout) doing 3-5 circuits on your own would probably be enough (along with a decent studying of the POH beforehand - I believe in knowing as much about the systems before flying a new type as possible as it puts you some steps ahead if anything unusual should happen).

Here's one where people might disagree with me. I think doing the flight without a GPS is masochistic. It can be done of course - but you will save yourself a lot of time and bother, and again put yourself ahead of the game by using one.

[gasax]

An amusing post. If this guy is genuine we need not worry, there is no way that Andy Bruce would let him go until the necessary level of knowledge or understanding has been drilled into his head!

It would appear the 'license to learn element' of training has been lost on this gentleman.

[AdamFrisch]

I'll be the odd man out then. I say go for it if the renter will allow you to take the aircraft abroad and he's checked you out. This isn't rocket science and whatever you don't happen to know beforehand, you will learn along the way. Don't be like males in cars - ask the controller when you're unsure. No question is too stupid in my book. So what if you don't know the exact wording of that country's procedure for radar service? Just ask for radar service - they'll understand. If they can't/won't give it to you they'll tell you. Read up on some AIP's so you know the basic rules for flying in Germany and then go. Holland has a Mode S requirement above 1200ft, I believe, and chances are your old 150 won't have that. But Holland is also avoidable. Stuff like that.

It's a great learning experience and exactly what flying is all about.

[Contacttower]

It would appear the 'license to learn element' of training has been lost on this gentleman.

To be honest when I was 17 and had a PPL I had all sorts of trips in mind of varying degrees of viability. There was so much that I did not know and so much more I did not know I did not know. I could fly well but none of my instructors had really been the good GA types who could really help with expanding my GA experience and make things like doing a long European trip a solid reality.

I'm not sure 'licence to learn' had been really instilled in me either and I doubt you would get that from a typical US based school. It was more like well done you have your PPL and that was about it.

It sounds like the OP is trying to do some research and his enthusiasm should be commended for actually wanting to use his PPL to go somewhere.

[Steve6443]

First things first, you will need to file a flight plan showing where you intend to cross from one country to another, detailing the time you anticipate being overhead.

Within Germany you will not need to file a flight plan but anytime you cross a country's border, you will need to do so. The big difference is if you (eg) cross from Belgium to Germany, you are going from one Shengen - member country to another so passport checks are not required - they will be required when going from (eg) UK - which is non Shengen - to most other european countries.

Therefore I would recommend you fly from the UK into a larger airport - for example Ostend in Belgium, Rotterdam in Holland - where you can clear customs. From there onwards just file your flight plan, there is no need to worry about customs from Shengen countries. Otherwise, ring your destination airport and ask about getting border clearance. Last week I flew back from the UK via Middenzee (EHMZ) and they organised everything for me so I can also recommend going there.

A few things to note about Germany:

1) German FIS will always provide traffic information if you want it - at least I've never been refused. There are three main FIS areas - Bremen Information, Langen Information and Munich Information so once you cross into Germany (or leave the circuit if flying from place to place in Germany), call them, they are very helpful.

2) The AIPs for Germany are not openly available, they need to be purchased although some airfield post some on their website. Beware of not having them - some airfields - Bonn Hangelaar springs to mind - have a very tight circuit for noise abatement rules and look to penalise infringers.

However there is a "get out of jail card" for anyone who infringes..... ;-)

3) If you're thinking of doing a lot of hops and jumps between airfields within Germany, consider buying the "Landegutscheinheft", which is now available for a reduced fee.

There are two books, north and south, which offer 3 free landings at selected airfields within German - if you google "Landegutscheinheft" you will see the airfields. I think they now cost around €40 for both and the savings for landing fees is immense. However you need to check if our destination airfield is a member of this scheme.

4) Have fun, it's not as difficult as many would have you think.

[TheFirstDohrnPilot]

Not gonna lie, I've been put off a little! But thank you to those who are a little more understanding... I'm sure it is well possible with the right amount of preparation. I think I have found someone with some touring experience up here, too. So that's good!

Today I flew down to Fife and Perth with a private pilot who is based on a small island here... we flew in a Jibaru... very different to a PA28 indeed, but really very manageable!

This trip probably won't go ahead because my licence won't come back from the CAA in time... but one day! Yeah! I'll take everyone's suggestions into consideration, thank you for your help.

[play the ball, not the man]

[Contacttower]

Well I hope you manage a good trip soon even if this one in particular proves to be unrealistic on this occasion.

Do you have an aircraft lined up that you can hire on a regular basis to do flights in?

[Cenus_]

I'm a PPL student with just 9 hours training completed. I just wanted to say that this post was really helpful to me just i terms of realising whats possible/sensible with a PPL. I constantly fantasize about what I'll get up to once(if!) I get my license and this is useful as a reality check!

[Phill]

I live somewhere where all these good things aren't available. I can't talk to another private pilot, I can't do a few hours at a local flight school, there's nobody to talk to about flying abroad.
So you haven't spoken to Mr Bruce?
There's nothing up here! No Fair!! :=

Where are you going to get your C150 from?
Far north aviation, Wick.

But you propose to take Mr Bruce's plane?? (that may be entertaining)

[TheFirstDohrnPilot]

Cenus, you're welcome i guess :)

It's not quite sorted out contacttower, but we we're thinking about perhaps even buying a small plane with an efficient mogas rotax engine. My dad might re-validate his PPL and it would therefore make economical sense. And thanks, I'm sure I'll figure something out... maybe fly across the atlantic or to the north pole in a c172 ;) haha

Phill, I spoke with Andrew over the phone a couple of days ago. As said though, nothing is set in place as this trip probably won't go ahead.

[OhNoCB]

I'm a PPL student with just 9 hours training completed. I just wanted to say that this post was really helpful to me just i terms of realising whats possible/sensible with a PPL. I constantly fantasize about what I'll get up to once(if!) I get my license and this is useful as a reality check!

Just to make clear, there are MANY things possible with a PPL, and the proposed trip is well within the grasp of a PPL holder. The issue some people have (including myself) is doing this as a first (or one of the first) flight(s) after getting ones licence.

You should have big goals and aim to achieve them, but it's good to have intermediate goals along the way to build confidence and experience. For the proposed trip something as simple as a few flights to get used to flying in the UK, some circuits to get used to a new aircraft, and maybe a trip to Northern France and back to get an idea of a foreign country and flight planning and customs/border procedures. I personally would say after doing those things that this trip is more than possible for a PPL holder in a C150 with some careful planning and making sure there are plenty of 'get out' options if something doesn't go to plan, like weather, technical issue etc - because as a newer PPL you will not always have the experience to deal with these and its better to push your limits gradually, not take a first flight off to Germany and find yourself aiming to into a small airstrip in deteriorating weather arriving with min fuel and all of a sudden finding you have less fuel than you thought and you don't have a clue of what alternates you have.

So much is possible and ambition is fantastic, it just has to be done with a sensible approach.

[BackPacker]

I agree with the others. There are too many "first" on this particular flight to make this a good idea. Build your experience slowly, one "first" at a time. But your journey is eventually well within reach of your average PPL.

As for the specific questions you have, a couple of answers and pointers.

First, the radio service you may get. Inside controlled airspace (which you *will* encounter on such a journey, by the way), it's easy. ICAO class A-D all perfectly define what sort of traffic/deconfliction service you're entitled to. Outside controlled airspace ICAO defines something called "Flight Information Service" which will give you info like the QNH and other relevant flight info, but NO traffic warnings of any kind. For that you will need something higher, but that something higher differs from country to country. Strangely enough, the two countries you have experience with (US and UK) are the odd men out in this respect. The US has "flight following" which is an IFR-like service and works really well. The UK has the system of ATSOCAS Services like Basic, Traffic, Deconfliction and so forth, which is well suited for the way UK airspace is divided up, and for the LARS services that can be provided by the military. But if you ask for "Flight Following" outside the US, or if you ask for "Basic Service" outside the UK, all you'll get is a sigh from a controller, and maybe the service that he provides to anybody else. Or a lecture...

Want to know exactly what services you can expect from a controller? Look at the country AIP, in the ENR 1.4 or 1.6 sections. But you can't go much wrong with asking for a "Flight Information Service" in general.

All AIPs for all European countries (*) can be accessed via the Eurocontrol site (http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadcms/eadsite/index.php.html) (Register, login, look for an application called PAMS Light) or via national sites such as these:
NATS | AIS - Home (http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/public/index.php.html)
AIS Netherlands (http://www.ais-netherlands.nl/)
(*) For copyright/commercial reasons, the German AIP only contains data on big/IFR airports. For small/VFR airports you have to have a paid subscription of some sort to the DFS database. You can get this through various sources, including SkyDemon.

When you cross borders, in principle you've got to do four things:
- Take off from a "customs" airport (a designated airport that has part-time or full-time customs and immigration)
- File a flight plan, which contains an ETA (actually an EET) for the border crossing, and the point where you cross the border
- Contact the authorities by radio when you cross the border (via the aforementioned Flight Information Service)
- Land again at a "customs" airport.
If you cross the border into or out of the US the procedures are even more complex, and obviously in any case you are required to comply with all passport and visa regulations, and all rules and regulations concerning the export/import of commercial/dangerous goods and such.

EU integration, at various levels, have made things a lot easier, but sometimes a bit more complex as well.

Within the EU (which the UK is a part of) there is free movement of goods. So you don't need to declare the aircraft and its contents at each border crossing. But the UK is not part of the Schengen agreement, so if you fly from the UK to the Schengen area (mainland Europe in this case) you've got to show your passports somewhere.

At the mainland Europe end the principle is easy. You've got to land (when flying to the mainland) or take off (when flying to the UK) on/from a "customs" airport: An airport which somehow has immigrations officials available to look at your passport. Some airport have these 24/7 and there's no need for calling them in advance. Other airports need a heads-up (called either PPR - Prior Permission Required - or PNR - Prior Notice Required) because immigration is not present 24/7. Again, the AIP (AD section) is your friend and if you don't know, just call the airfield you intend to visit. In your case, Oostende EBOS would probably be a good airfield to fulfill your immigration requirements.

Of course most countries in mainland Europe are part of the Schengen agreement and are part of the EU, so once you're inside that area, you don't need to worry about customs/immigration anymore. You can just fly from any airfield to any other without worrying about customs/immigration procedures. (But you do need to file a flight plan; see below.)

At the UK end the same principles apply: You can fulfill your customs/immigration requirements at a "customs" airfield. But the UK has added a little twist to this. If you're not importing commercial goods, and all people on board have EU passports, and you meet a few other criteria (look at the fine print), then you can fly to/from any UK airfield direct from/to a foreign country, as long as you fax or e-mail the "GAR" form a certain number of hours in advance, to the relevant authorities. If you search for "GAR form" you'll get lots of info, but this is the most useful one probably: Early this year AOPA worked together with the authorities to allow you to file the GAR online. The result is here:
Online GAR System (http://www.aopa.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=627&Itemid=582). I have also seen that SkyDemon is working on something that allows you to file a GAR form through them, but I don't think it is fully operational yet.

Furthermore, when crossing an international FIR boundary, you have to file a flight plan. This also applies when flying within the Schengen/EU countries, so it's also required when you fly from Belgium to Germany, for instance. Details on filing flight plans are in your Air Law/Operational Procedures textbook, and in CAA Safety Sense 20 (Safety Sense Leaflet 20: VFR Flight Plans | Publications | About the CAA (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=1174)). Pay particular care to the EET/ field and notation. Also, how and where to file a flight plan is a bit of a challenge in the UK, with various options available. By far the easiest method would be to get SkyDemon (either the Light or the full version) and let SkyDemon file the flight plan for you (1 UKP per plan).

With regards to charts and navigating, yes, definitely get a GPS for trips like this, and learn how to use it properly and effectively before you set off. Also, get an up to date chart set that covers your whole route, preferably in the same format. My personal choices are an iPad with SkyDemon (with the navigation options of course) plus the Jeppesen VFR+GPS chart series. The advantage of the Jeppesen VFR+GPS chart series is that they offer a uniform presentation across the whole of Europe. And they're not laminated so they are easier to fold, and you can write on with a lead pencil.

So that's your questions taken care of. Now for a few other things you also may want to consider:

When planning your route, check landing fees and handling fees in advance, and check Avgas (100LL) availability. Along your route I don't think there will be many extremes, but the further into Europe you go, the more these issues may become "interesting".

In Germany and France, and perhaps a few other countries as well, aviation is not necessarily done in English throughout. There are a lot of fields that are designated as "German only" or "French only" (again, see the AIP). You need to speak a measure of German or French to get in safely, because even the circuit calls at those fields are done in German or French. Formally, you'd even need a level 4+ License Proficiency in either German or French on your licence before you're allowed to visit. If you only speak English, it's not a good idea to have pitstops at these fields.

You will want to make the Channel Crossing as high as possible, to give you options in case of an engine failure. If you consider airspace issues around the Dover-Calais or Dover-Koksijde crossing, the highest you can get is FL50. At that altitude the visible horizon is well over 30 km away. Which means that even in perfect VFR conditions (10 km viz) the horizon may not be visible, and the blue-grey of the sea will blend seamlessly into the grey-blue of the sky. For all practical purposes you may need to fly on instruments in those circumstances - although sometimes you can look straight down and orient yourself based on what you see below. It's not necessarily dangerous, but it is something to be aware of, and you need to have a plan to deal with it.

Furthermore, obviously you've got to think of survival equipment. I think the law requires life vests for all on board at least (and in the confines of a small GA aircraft they've got to be worn - it's too cramped to put them on only when disaster strikes). But you might want to consider additional survival equipment like life rafts, dry suits, PLBs and such if you're going to do this often. (And coincidentally your location is probably the easiest place in the whole of the UK to rent that sort of equipment, and get the training to deal with it. AFAIK Far North Aviation is one of the experts on trans-Atlantic ferry flight support.)

Let's see, anything else? Make sure you have plenty of money for a trip like this. Bring tie-downs, spare oil and other TLC items for the aircraft. Don't fly overweight - which will be a challenge in a C150/152 with 2 POB, full fuel and all the kit you'll need to bring. Bring a camera and let us know how you got on!

[Contacttower]

Great post BP, I'm sure the OP appreciates someone taking the time to write something so extensive.

Just one little point of clarification the UK itself does not have exit controls so it is not necessary to depart from a customs airfield or indeed file a GAR for the outbound flight expect if departing to areas designated under the Terrorism Act 2000 like Northern Ireland and the Republic, the Channel Islands and Isle of Man.

Most other airports in Europe yes if leaving the Schengen area (to go back to the UK for example) must be from a customs airport.

[Flyboater]

An excellent post from Backpacker. I fully concur with everything he has said.
The only thing I would add is to allow yourself plenty of time. Everything may take far longer than you expect. Allow a day (or two) extra for your return journey to avoid get-home-itis, which can be a killer. Un-forecast weather, for instance, can pop up any time.

[piperboy84]

I'm not sure 'licence to learn' had been really instilled in me either and I doubt you would get that from a typical US based schoo

I remember what the FAA designated examiner said to me upon completion of the flight for my PPL in LA back in the 90's, he said " Well i suppose you are not an immediate danger to the public, you now have what I call a license to learn, use it, and good luck"

Like the OP all my flying was done overseas then tried l adapt to flying here (Northeast of Scotland) by myself by reading as much as I could. If i had it to do over I think 3 or 4 hours with a CFI would have helped cut to the chase.

The biggest issue I came across was weather. In the SW USA, what was advertised was for the most part what you got, here in Scotland however, due I assume to it being a narrow rocky outcropping in NW Europe surrounded by the seas things can and do change QUICK, I have learned to expect the unexpected.

As for what flights are "possible", that crazy bastard Mathias Rust proves anything is possible, he took a rental 172 right after passing his test and flew it for hundreds of miles over the North Sea then into Red Square. Is it possible? Sure. Is it advisable? probably not.

TheFirstDohrnPilot next time your down in this neck of the woods stop in at my strip at Forfar for a coffee.

[abgd]

My dad might re-validate his PPL and it would therefore make economical sense.

I had half wondered... but assumed that you would have mentioned it. Depending on your dad's experience, even if he's not current, taking along a relatively experienced pilot would make your trip appear much more reasonable.

[letpmar]

Just to add my two penny's worth, I think without building up to a solo trip like this you are pushing your luck. You are talking about a lot of firsts here and a trip like this can bring up things you have not even thought of. I hate to be negative but please get yourself some airtime and advice. I am sure wherever you are in England there will be someone who can help you. I fly a lot into Europe and operate a rotax powered aircraft. I would be happy to give you some help and advice and perhaps do a cross channel trip with you just get in touch. There is always someone out there who will help.

[dont overfil]

Letpmar

That's a kind offer but I think you are nearer to Germany than to him:)

TheFirstDohrnPilot. I hope you enjoyed your flight with T. A bit windy, eh?:ok:

[letpmar]

Perhaps true but I am on the way well positioned for routing out GSA Cherbourg or le toque I know that's spelt wrong cant be bothered to look it up. My offer still stands.

[TheFirstDohrnPilot]

Wow, thanks for all the offers of help guys! When I do get going with my trip, I'll definitely take you up on your offers!

Yes, BP cheers for that very detailed post. I would leave myself lots of time, and do it right... proper fuel planning alternates, etc etc.

D.O... how do you know that? haha And who's T.A.? Do you mean T.S.? :)