Honest question of race/ethnicity

[shortspilot35]

Recently, while speaking with a former colleague, I expressed a desire and interest to apply to Korean, Emirates, Air China, Asiana, and China Southern airlines. He genuinely stated it would be rather difficult for me do to my race (Black). It's his belief a black male gaining employment with most Asian and Middle Eastern carriers would be an nearly insurmountable hill to climb. Currently I fly the 777F (previously 747-200F) and have over 7,000 total time with over 2,700 Turbine PIC. All but 400 hrs. is in transport category jets.

This question isn't intended to start a discussion on race. I'm simply looking for an honest response and some advice (my gorgeous wife is a red head as are our 2 beautiful kids).

Thanks for the honest reply/replies.

[mamad]

Hi

Regarding emirates and the middle eastern airlines i know several african pilots

flying for them. So one would think it is not really the case.

However for the asian airlines ( china hongkong japan) i have been long asking the same question . hopefully this thread will help clear it.

mamad

[scandistralian]

Don't ever worry about ethnicity being a barrier in the Middle East, they are far more advanced than that. As for parts of Asia; Singapore and Thai still think females are unable to fly...:ugh:

Any airline that discriminates based on race/age/sex should be publicly named and shamed.

[safelife]

Certain Asian folks are afraid of black people.
I think that's the reason behind.
No such thing in the middle east.

[Luke SkyToddler]

A black, British friend of mine applied for a command position with Korean Air, all initial feedback from the agency was positive, he sent his logbooks etc for assessment, and got invited out to Korea to do the sim check. He sent his passport (with his photo in obviously) to arrange the visa and ticket, and they suddenly realized - he got a curt email that the position was no longer available, and they cut off all further contact with him when he enquired as to why not :mad:

Middle East airlines have plenty of other problems, but race discrimination is not one of them :ok:

[galdian]

An aside - I know of one younger Japanese Captain (I think less than 1,000 hours PIC TT maybe 6000 jet) who is now F/O with Emirates for the last 2 years or so.
Years ago the THOUGHT of a Japanese leaving Japan was unthinkable.

On the flip side Skymark in Japan cleared (courtesy of JCAB) their first Female Captain about 6 months ago - from Korea - with another in the system I believe (but could be wrong...could be more).

Much was made a couple of years ago when JAL (through subsidiary JEX) cleared their first lady Captain - ceremony, news reports etc.

Mr Dylan was right - the times are indeed changing, whether through desire or necessity probably a moot question.

Regards Japan only - it would be interesting if NCA or Air Japan have African/Afro Americans in their employ as both have either international basings or no residency for expats.

Interesting question - apologies if perceived as a thread drift.

[GlueBall]

Asia has a long way to go in labor laws and equal employment opportunities. Female cabin crews typically are turfed by age-40; labor unions are weak and mostly unheard of; real job seniority doesn't exist; employment contracts are worthless; foreigners have no rights. If you can get on, it's just for the money, because you will always be an outsider. :{

[Fratemate]

Regards Japan only - it would be interesting if NCA or Air Japan have African/Afro Americans in their employ as both have either international basings or no residency for expats.

AJX have two black pilots that I can immediately think of. One is an FO and one is just finishing his command upgrade (he may well have already passed it but I haven't seen him around for a bit). There are also two female pilots; one is just going through training and the other is getting to the end of her command upgrade. Of this lot, three are from the States and one is from Oz.

[mikedreamer787]

I saw a very black bloke wandering around PEK terminal
in a VNA uniform once so maybe they don't discriminate
against skin color.

[ironbutt57]

Shortspilot......been all over the world, seen black/white/yellow (okok no green yet) pilots from every imaginable nationality...here where I fly in the Arabian Gulf, and Asia as well...seems to make no difference at all....:ok::ok:

and if you're flying the Shorts better yet!!

[the grove]

VNA does indeed hire black pilots. They recruit through agencies located in countries where it would be illegal to discriminate, and to their credit the Viets do not seen inclined to discriminate on that basis, either.

Hard to quantify, but going through the right agency might well be an aid in some cases, Shorts.

[USMCProbe]

I think it might be more correct to say the Viets don't discriminate - they hate all foreigners equally.

I did not see any black expats in China. I do know they discriminate by nationality but I don't think race. there are a few female expat Captains in China as well.

I think no worries about race.

[rdr]

the far east as a rule, are extremely conscious of skin colour. they look down on all black people as a step away from primates. their sole preoccupation is to try and whiten their skin, or prevent sunburn. a lot of this is hidden and not apparent due to language differences.
this too holds for many segments of sub-continental society.

all these societies also have a tendency to fawn and drop their knickers, when a white man walks in, without exception, and at all levels.

[jandakotcruiser]

rdr...you are generalizing and just too patronizing. When I flew in KAL some years ago I met an Ethiopean guy ex-SQ who told me that the SEAsian Chinese were the most accepting of him whereas the Indians shunned him while the white blokes generally ignored him.

In Korea, the Koreans generally have come around accepting dark skinned people ( intermarriage with dark skinned people is still not well accepted ) as this Ethiopean guy did not suffer from any overt discrimination. He mentioned that he was happy that a SEA Chinese chap was most helpful when he needed assistance in some matters. He found yours truly to be one of the few Caucasian he counted as friends even though he lived in the big US of A!

[RETARD_RETARD_RETARD]

I completely agree with RDR in his assessment of South East Asian Airline's perception of African-American or people of African ethnicity.

I knew a black guy, well, Aruban to be correct, he applied with an outfit in Indonesia in the good ol days. Back then, email or skype hadn't evolved to what it is now(there was no skype in those days, we had something called 'hotmail'). He was called in, the moment they saw him, the DFO and HR politely , refused on account of all slots being filled.

I completely agree with RDR, color is a per-requisite.

BTW the year i speak above was 1996.

[brasmelzuit]

@retard : it was the years of darkness on Indonesia..where riots started....chinese were not welcome...Years of stupidity I would say..

2010-ish onward was so much diferent. I know at least 5 black carribean pilots in Air Asia Indonesia..some in Sriwijaya...and a lot of chinese..
But hey, the question was not involved Indonesia..I simply replied what retard3x wrote...

[Metro man]

Some black pilots flying with the LoCosts in Singapore, not too sure about SIA but I know they won't hire women in mainline though there are a few in Silk Air.

You may be looked down on for being a foreigner more than for being black. Some of the Asian races think they are well above everyone else on the planet. In Thailand dark skin is a sign of being low class as you are assumed to work outside in the fields or on a construction site doing manual labour instead of in an office.

With more people traveling and incomes rising minds are opening up. When I take a city train in Bangkok I'm rarely the only white person in the carriage.

It's worth trying everywhere, you may be the first.

[USMCProbe]

I agree with most of what has been said. At the end of the day, expats are just seat warmers till the locals can get spun up. Some cultures are more accepting than others of outsiders.

FWIW, despite a lot of the bad stuff about flying in China, the chinese are extremely welcoming to foreigners.

[Metro man]

The last flight I took on the middle eastern airline which cannot be named had two black pilots pilots waiting in the departure lounge to take over the aircraft, Captain looked American and the F/O looked Jamaican.

FWIW South African Airways would take on any foreign black pilot over a white male local.

[Ghost_Rider737]

Metro,

South African Airways does not hire foreign nationals. Race isn't even a factor, if you are not South African then you are not legible.

Metroman...... FYI South African Airways has a pilot group made up of over 80% white males. (All South African nationals)

[rdr]

Jandakot,
take a long hard look at your post, and you will see the generalisations and patronising. Welcome to the world of forums where opinions can be shared without labelling others.

Anyway, life is difficult all round for dark skinned people, everyone knows this. Many a door is closed at times, and this will go on in spite of the selective and heart warming stories we get to hear. The world is changing, and hopefully, attitudes will to, to our fellow pilots.

Once, after completing a check ride on 2 senior yanks from American and Delta, one of them found it comfortable enough to tell me that I was the first "black" person he had flown with in 38 years of aviation.
The statement bemused me initially, and I realised that anyone not white in some parts of the US, were termed black, like coloured in S Africa.
I also realised that the guys were somewhat unaware of what to expect from a "black" instructor. It also showed that not many blacks made it to the flight deck in the USA. Perhaps someone else knows better.

[USMCProbe]

rdr:
Your experience with the yanks must be from long long ago.

[wongsuzie]

The comment about the Indians shunning him is not surprising.

The Indians don't even like each other!.

North and South Indians have been squabbling for 3000 years.

[Metro man]

South African Airways last cadet intake had no white males at all.

The airline issued a statement in August explaining that the programme was “specifically designed to redress the very serious demographic and gender imbalance found within SAA’s pilot corps”, with 85% of its pilots white and nine out of 10 of them male. The cadet scheme, it said, was “aimed at individuals from previously disadvantaged backgrounds – including white females – as part of a broader strategy to meet the airline’s transformation targets” of having a workforce representing the racial breakdown of South Africa.

Flight Global

[smiling monkey]

As for parts of Asia; Singapore and Thai still think females are unable to fly..

That might be the case for the national airlines of those countries, SQ and TG, but I have heard females voices on the radio for Silk Air and Thai Air Asia.

[Ghost_Rider737]

Metro I'm referring to your comment about SAA hiring foreign nationals.

Bottom line is if you ain't South African then you won't be hired irrespective of race.

[emiratesf hucker]

Recently, while speaking with a former colleague, I expressed a desire and interest to apply to Korean, Emirates, Air China, Asiana, and China Southern airlines. He genuinely stated it would be rather difficult for me do to my race (Black).
----------------------------------------------------


Get over yourself, get a life and get on with it.

[shortspilot35]

Thanks for all the honest and thoughtful replies. It's my intent to give a few of the foreign carriers some serious consideration. Having flown internationaly for the past 6 years, my post came as a result of personal observation and I simply wanted an honest assessment of opinions of others.

Again, thanks for all the honest and intelligent replies.