New ICAO Flt Operations Officer/Aircraft Dispatcher Course

[no sig]

The Glasgow College of Nautical Studies, Aviation Studies Department has confirmed that they will be offering the
ICAO Flight Operations Officer/Aircraft Dispatcher's licence course from September of this year. This distance learning course will be based on three modules covering all the subjects required in the ICAO Doc 7192 D3. The College will be working with a number of major UK airlines to ensure the subject matter meets the ICAO requirements and covers current European airline needs, e.g Eurocontrol ATFM etc.

This course should meet the requirements that the CAA have proposed for flight operations officer training in the future.

My hope is that the ICAO FOO licence course will become the industry training standard in the UK.

What's your views on the above?


See http://www.glasgow-nautical.ac.uk/

[no sig]

GRICH

The Aircraft Dispatchers licence refered to is not aircraft ramp dispatch, but flight dispatch as in flight planning, flight watch and operational control. However, if you want to move into ops then this is the first step to getting there.

[opsbod]

Have to say that at last our trade might be getting some of the recognition it deserves.

Looking forward to starting the course myself.

:)

[mutt]

I checked out the URL given, but cant find anything about this course?

Mutt.

[no sig]

Mutt

I spoke with the College yesterday and they are working on a web site update, contact them direct on the numbers listed, Peter Bainbridge is the head of aviation studies.

[cargo_alf]

glad to see it all going ahead, i am interested in doing this course pending costs. do you think we are going to be going in the directions of other nations in that it will become compulsary to have such a licence in order to be employed - it cant be a bad thing, and will hopefully push up the wages. at the moment i cant finnancially afford to be in this trade/airline much longer if they dont improve :(

[no sig]

CargoAlf

Honestly, I cannot see the UK CAA mandating a licence for Flight Operations Officers. The CAA FODCOM 9/2001 specifically excludes that option.

However, what is encouraging about this is that at least they intend to set a benchmark for training requirements which meets international standards. Also, the proposal is that your airline's Ops manaual Part D will include this as a minimum standard for FOO's training.

If the ICAO syllabus becomes a UK standard then it de facto becomes a minimum requirement. Not least of which, I believe it will enhance the professionalism of FOO's and, over time, will earn FOO's a much great level of respect within the industry.

[no sig]

Details of the course are now available on the following web site.

http://www.glasgow-nautical.ac.uk/

see Transport Studies

It has just occurred to me that some might be forgiven for thinking I am in for a 'back hander' for plugging the ICAO course, no I'm not. In truth my motives are to plug Flight Operations Officer training, not just the ICAO course. The CAA, and as I have heard through IFALDA this week, the JAA also, are moving to a much more formalised approach to European and UK Ops training. For those who know me from BGFOO days, there have been many before and after me who have tried and tried to get the recognition that Ops bods need a standard training syllabus.

Finally, it does appear that that requirement for FOO training has dawned on the CAA and as I believe on the JAA.

[boxjockey99]

I am currently an FOO for an airline and have ended up with the task of writing the training manual for the Ops department based on the new FOO/FD syllabus, primarily due to my having gotten my frozen ATPL and so being familiar with both the flying theory and the FOO/FD role.

The ICAO syllabus in my opinion is VERY OTT. how many FOO's ever need to know about D, E and F layers of the ionosphere for instance or the formation of the ICAO body. There is an awful lot of niff naff and trivia in there and so I have ended up using the syllabus purely as a guide and missing out the stuff deemed by myself and my manager to be irrelevant to the role of FOO/FD in our company.

If you were to stick to the ICAO syllabus and know the subject in the kind of detail it seems to require then you would probably be just as well to go and do your ATPL course at the same time!!

Hope that helps
Boxjockey

[peterc]

Whilst I agree anything that can be done to raise the profile (and salary)of Ops control staff,what about good old hands on experience.My fear is ,that companies will go for people who have the bits of paper,and ignore those of us who have been digging them out the **** for years.I have been through the all to common experience of watching a wizz kid with all the degrees licences bells and whistles,freeze ,when confronted with serious program disruption,caused by tech a/c or weather/atc/crew hours
problems.And who then gets the program back on its wheels???
well we all know the answer to that dont we.
I am not knocking the need for formal qualifications,but there needs to be a balance.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[mutt]

If the website is anything to go by, the course will leave a lot to be desired.......

The link for FAQ's brings you to questions on the ATPL course :(

Mutt.

[no sig]

Let's start at the beginning...

Flight Operations Officer’s/Flight Dispatcher’s work in a very technical environment (at least most do), they make decisions which may/do affect flight safety they also make decisions which have a considerable impact on the economics of the airline they work for. FOO's/Dispatcher’s must interact with aircrew at the same level which most often requires technical knowledge equal to that of the aircrew. Airlines rely on FOO/Dispatcher’s to have sufficient knowledge of flight operations to be able to anticipate operational difficulties and be one step ahead of the aircrew. Ever wondered why the FAA Aircraft Dispatcher’s licence and the FAA ATPL licence written exams are the same exam paper?

The ICAO FOO/Flight Dispatcher’s licence course syllabus was updated 1998. That is the same ICAO which defines the standards for member states in terms of aircrew/air traffic licensing, procedures and operation of aircraft requirements. It IS the organisation which you in your ops room are impacted upon every day of your lives, from the format of the METAR and TAF you read to your crew, to the design and operational criteria which guides the layout of an airfield. ICAO is the international body, which sets the Standards we all operate to. Yes, JAROPS is also in there, but it all starts with ICAO and the Annexes. This is why in the UK CAA FODCOM 9/2001 the CAA references the ICAO syllabus as the standard to which UK airlines should be moving and including in part D of their operations manuals. This is recognition that your job requires a high degree of technical knowledge and that your role is firmly part of the airline's operational group.

So, is it surprising that the ICAO course for FOO/Dispatcher’s is comprehensive? It has to be, it is an international standard/recommendation that caters for the global requirement. You must appreciate that in the same way that a pilot sits an ATPL exam, which equips him/her with the knowledge for the rest of their flying career. That pilot may only be flying a twin engine air taxi operation from Liverpool to Southampton, but in the future he may be flying a B777 from London to Singapore, no one asks him to re-sit his licence do they? So to, there are Ops Officers who will start with the small air taxi outfit who will in future be flight planning that B777 over the pole or to the far east.

The course is about giving you the knowledge you will need at various times over the course of your career, it is NOT about your particular airline or what you do today. Also for most people entering airline operations this is the beginning of their career, I think most would agree that having a solid grounding in the flight operations aspects of an airline is foundation knowledge.


It is true that training needs to keep pace with the times and the ICAO Doc 7192 D3 which defines the syllabus is under constant review. It has been updated and I know there is work ongoing to ensure it keeps up with the times. But, as with all things, unless you understand the basics you will not understand the complex. The Glasgow College course is aiming to keep to the spirit and intent of the course and will be working with three UK airlines to make sure it meets todays needs. It will not contain astro-navigation, nor will it force you to learn the physics of the upper atmosphere or arcane navigational techniques, as one commentator put it. But is MUST, equip you to operate in a modern airline and to enable you to interact with aircrew on technical issues so that they have confidence in you advice or decisions.

Mutt.. The website has only just be put up and the course content is still being worked.

peterc... Don't confuse the need for the experience and street wise ops knowledge with the need for a foundation in technical subjects, you had to learn to read a TAF somewhere, you at one time had to figure out what an ATC flight plan was. The course is to give those starting out or already in the business that knowledge. It does not replace the need to recruit 'people' with the ability to work in a busy ops environment doing 6 things at once. Further, the second part of the ICAO FOO/FD syllabus requires on the job training to get the 'good old hand on' Ops room skills, you don't learn those from a book in any walk of life.

boxjockey... you've just done the knowledge ! so what is your point? Are you suggesting that what you learned in doing the ATPL was a waste of time? When was the last time one of your pilots had to consider the E and F layers. You are doing this for your company BECAUSE you have done your ATPL and now have the knowledge. As you point out you are focused on what YOUR Company needs, this is tailored training and perfectly reasonable. The ATPL and the ICAO FOO/Dispatchers licence are general qualification to meet the international aviation requirements, do a JAR ATPL and you need do nothing else, it covers it all, do the ICAO FOO course and it the same.

Sorry to ramble on, but this is important. Let's raise the standard in our ops rooms, let's give those wannabe's a place to start their ops studies and training. Let's get a qualifation in the UK which meets our needs and gives our job the recognition that it has long deserved.

[lab monkey]

Thank you no Sig for your comprehensive reply, but who's gonna get more, peterc with years behind him but no qualifications, or someone with a year max, and your exams? some of your 'new' recruits are very worried, with all the other changes coming!

[no sig]

Lab Monkey

The case I am making here is, of course, not airline specific, it is about the adoption of an internationally recognised minimum standard of training for an airline operations officer. And it is not 'my' course it is ICAO's recommendation.

Who gets paid what depends on the attitude of the airline you work for to qualifications and training. Expereince is of course essential. Just because you have passed a course in flight ops studies is no guide to your eventual competence in the ops room, what it does do however, is ensure you have a foundation of knowledge to build upon as you gain expereince. It is a starting point, just as the FAA licence is in the states, only difference is, in the states you don't get a job without it.

[srs what?]

Attn Mutt:

If you scroll down the FAQ page the FOO Course is covered towards the end. Shows price and syllabus of the course.

[EAZYCHICK]

Seems like there's a lot out there in the way of career progression and recognised qualifications for 'operations' staff but where do the poor relations crewing/rostering staff fit in? We also are responsible for doing our bit to ensure the company AOC is protected in compliance with the company FTL. I am sure there's nothing out there but if anyone knows of any relevant courses/qualifications would be most interested to hear. I know, i'm living in dreamworld. You can but live in hope!!!

[walla]

mmm new user hows mt ?:cool:

[EAZYCHICK]

sure i don't know what you mean.... mt? ct? ck? talking in riddles i'm afraid.....

[opsbod]

Where to start?

The ICAO 7192 course and Part A of the syllabus is intended to provide a technical background and a base of knowledge for Operations Staff. The technical section of the course is not and will not teach you to manage the movements of a fleet of aircraft. But, Part A will prepare you for the times when things go wrong and the technical side of our trade is needed.

Consider this:

Captain Scarlet flies for Airline A, he operates 3 sectors per day on a 6 on/3 off roster pattern. In a year he will operate 723 sectors.

Operations Officer Black also works for Airline A, he works a 4 on/4 off shift pattern and manages Operations Control for the airlines fleet of 5 aircraft each operating 6 sectors per day. In a year he will be responsible for the supervision of over 2500 sectors.

If a major problem occurs every 1000 sectors Black will see 2 a year, Captain Scarlet will see one every 2 years.

Captain Scarlet will have an ATPL and many years of experience to help him deal with the problem – why should Black not be trained to the same level, or at least a strong technical level.

Part B of 7192 deals with on the job training. Look at it this way, a pilot joins an airline with an ATPL, the airline gives him a type rating. Someone joins the same airline to work in Ops, he has the technical training 7192 specifies, it then becomes the airlines responsibility to train him on procedures and actions that are required for operational control and fleet management by that individual airline, procedures that will differ from airline to airline.

The technical training specified will serve to raise our profile with crews and better prepare our staff for the unexpected.

[opsbod]

Just curious if any of you folks out there are looking to take up the course?

[cargo_alf]

too late for me i'm afraid :(

i've had to leave the ops world due to lack of income, lack of alternatives and a general lack of prospects at the mo, might have done it tho if given the chance earlier. one day hopefully i'll be to consider doing it again

[MilOps]

Can somebody explain to me why I, or anybody else for that matter, should lash out a significant sum of money on a training course that appears to be of dubious value in an industry that is intent on not recognising Ops Staff as aviation professionals and consequently pays a derisory wage as a consequence.

[mutt]

The role of a flight dispatcher is totally different between the USA and the UK. In the USA the position is licensed and holds an “almost” equal responsibility for flight safety as the Captain, especially in 121 operations, therefore the salary reflects the training and the responsibility.
If the salary is anything to go by in the UK, the position is treated with derision. I would therefore say that if a suitable qualification could be established and the responsibilities recognized, there would be a good argument for a major increase in salaries!

Mutt.

[MilOps]

Mutt,

I understand the concept only too well, create a forum whereby Ops Staff employed in the civil aviation industry are afforded recognition for their expertise, after all this is certainly the case in North America and mainland Europe.
So why is it then that the UK insists on shabbily treating these people and paying them below what they deserve, at Norwich airport for example the flight briefing room bods get less than 9 grand and ramp tramps less than 12. Until something proactive is done you will always be poorly treated and regarded as cretins. I for one am amazed that trolley dollies are further up the food chain than Ops Bods!
For my part I intend to take the FAA course because its cheaper, established and world recognised and more importantly quicker to attain, then we'll see what the industry has to offer. If nothing worthwhile crops up then I'm outa there and off to pursue more worthwhile ventures.

[no sig]

Steady on MilOps. A bit of explanation. I trust you have read my previous post. For a start, the ICAO Flight Operations Officers/Flight Dispatchers Licence is an ICAO recommendation, in the UK for want of the wisdom, the CAA have never mandated the requirement. However, in the very near future they will amend CAP360 and JAA will follow, to reflect the need for the training of UK based Operations officers to be based on ICAO Doc 7192 D-3 Flight Ops Officers/Dispatchers Syllabus, this will be included in the Part D of the airlines Ops manual.

True it is not a Licence, however, it will I hope raise the standard of airline flight operations personnel training and, at long last, establish an industry standard in the UK. Something we have not had. As a holder of an FAA licence and as one intimately involved with the production of this course, I can tell you the ICAO course syllabus will give you a better all round grounding in Airline ops. I f you wish to work for FAA base operators then by all mean do the FAA ticket. By the way, I think you find the ICAO course at the Glasgow college is somewhat cheaper.

Also, Ops officers are not the bottom of the food chain. In most airlines you will find the salaries much higher then what you quote, I think you need to look further a field then NWI before judging the UK situation. My airline pays a starting salary in the region of £21 to 26 K per year for an experienced ops officer with qualifications.

[HODGY]

21-26 big ones!!

If you ever start recruiting we'll have no one left!

Why do you think it is that even without a standard qualification to do the job that salaries differ so much from Airline to Airline?

I am an Ops Controller for a large company and earn alot less than that.

[no sig]

Hodgy

Ops and crewing staff in my airline, and indeed in most others, are the team that keeps the airline running day to day - need I even say that here. They are usually enpowered to make high value decisions and their ability to do the job has a marked impact upon safe operations and the economics of the airline. It's a very important job and reward goes with that. We pay for their skills and offer to train them further, we also link qualifcations with progress in the Company, no real mystery there.

As for a standard UK qualification, my hope is that the ICAO FOO/FD course will become that standard, it will in my airline.

[HODGY]

No Sig

All very valid points which i agree with and hopefully we will have the oppertunity to do the new ICAO course as I believe it is being considered by our management at the moment. I just hope that by completing it our salaries may become more inline with a company such as yours, which was my initial question of why there is such a variation between airlines on how much they pay the people that keep the airline running.

p.s any clues on who you work for?

[VIKING9]

Training staff can only be a good thing, surely. Aircrew obviously have to be trained, so why shouldn't Ops/Crewing staff be recognised as being suitably trained?

Let's face it, it's the Ops/Crewing staff who have to predict, manage and maintain a calm sense of perspective when things go horribly wrong (as it so often does) and they should at least be recognised by their manager's for what they achieve every working day.

Training does help and will continue to help. Maybe some manager's should be sent on training courses, they might learn to be better manager's.......;)

[no sig]

Hodgy

Naturally, salary will vary with the levels of responsibility. If you fly an Islander you're likely to earn much less than if you're a B777 pilot. So it is in other parts of the airline industry. Why one airline pays less is oft related to just that. Management of a high intensity commercial airline operation requires greater skills than say, the management of a flying club (no disrepect to those who do).

[fractional]

I am a Flight De(i)spatcher/Flight Operations Officer, Non-Flying Pilot whatever you guys may say and we all need to stick together since very little has been done thru the people who are supposed to represent us (NOT on $$$ matters since one complements the other), and have done very little for it.
I visitted recently the EUFALDA and this organisation could at least encourage other national de(i)spatcher associations to prepare a credible presentation to the JAA to legislate on the need for a ground based workforce able to help the pilots in the air to make decisions or coordinate thier operations, and so avoiding certain perils up there. Some national organisations AGAIN have done very little to defend our class too. I say some NOT all, but I saw nothing in their website in that matter.
We are all supposed to be qualified people, we must master the performance of the aircraft the company operates and certain aspects of the same aircraft systems. We must have the brains to judge and quicken acertained decisions of different aspects as we all know specially the shift supervisor or leaders. We will be accountable for what we did NOT do and we were supposed to do. The only difference here is that we did NOT do SIMs and we are not up there flying.
Obviously, we do NOT have such strict Duty Time Limitations but we should have something to rule us. We work Morning, Afternoon and Night shifts. we also work when the rest of the world sleeps and vice versa.
I am not up there flying so close to the danger of having a skin cancer, etc., but I spend 8 hrs in front of a screen per shift, in a very demanding and intense environment, doing I do best working for the profit of the company. Like me, others perform the same way. This wears me off as I get older.
My sympathy goes out to those who are trying to walk after being years crawling.
Prepare something, a document and make your cases available to people who can do something. I would also like to see the national associations more involved in defending this class' rights. Indeed, pilots and their associations ought to support the people they should trust during the pre-flight briefing and while up there.
Someone has to start, and rather earlier than later. Come on guys with good writing skills and good reps go ahead.
We usually ear pilots say that a good approach is half of a good landing. Well, well, a good D(i)espatcher's job makes it so easy for the flying crews...

[CIV5C]

Fractional,
"Well, well, a good D(i)espatcher's job makes it so easy for the flying crews...".
You are damn right!
After all, what would you (and I suppose most of us FOOs/dispatchers...) prefer? Getting bored on a 2, 4, 8 or 12 hour flight ... whatever, or getting some REAL excitement in Ops?
My choice is clear! And if any pilots are reading this post, I am NOT a wannabe pilot. Just love the job. Freakin' love it...

[MilOps]

No Sig,

Thanks for your comprehensive reply, maybe, just maybe things could improve for Ops bods in civvy street. In the RAF we are regarded as ATC failures, but I digress. FYI I have looked considerably further than Norwich and apart from your airline I have not encountered anything above 16K and that includes shift allowance and in expensive areas to live to boot. I shall investigate Glasgow but am unconvinced that the money will be wisely invested.

[no sig]

MilOps

Ops Officers status and salaries vary widely accross the aviaiton spectrum, true £16K maybe the best you'll do at one airline, on the other hand you could easily start in at £20K odd with another, particularly if you have the expereince such as your RAF time. Also, Ops is not the only area where ops skills might be valuable, you might consider airport , airfield ops, nav - performance office etc. etc. The ICAO course would be a valuable addition to your re-settlement package , why not get your present employer to sponsor you? Good Luck what ever you choose.

[mfarrar]

How nice to see such a comprehensive and rational reply.

Since doing the FAA dispatchers course, I have been more and more convinced that we should be going that way over here. I had great hopes when the FAA/JAA "integration" was promised - but, as always seems the way with "Euro" bureaucracy, it all got bogged down and lost the plot!
Despite BALPA reservations, the need for a qualified (licenced) dispatcher to handle all the aspects of flight operations is self evident! Crew duty times are getting shorter, aircraft legs longer and the technical aspects more complex.
Proper training will result in the professional respect for the job that is required. That means knowledge AND experience. The risk of losing your licence would also keep people on their toes.
In my work, I see all sorts of Operations staff - some good, some bad - and I just get the feeling that they would all prefer to go down this route.

[Fly_146]

The course content looks like a watered down ATPL ground school course, and similar in content to the old C&G courses.
yawn!

How about a course that looks at real a/c ops. e.g. how to beat those slot restrictions, real crewing, etc

[no sig]

Fly146

The course does contain CFMU/IFPS procedures and will have an operations control and crewing content. The rest of the syllabus is the the ICAO 7192 Flight Ops/Flight Dispacther requirement.

If this generates a 'yawn' then maybe you know it all already and the course isn't for you.

[opsbod]

FLY_146 If you had bothered to stay awake and read DOC 7192 you would know the ICAO syllabus is divided into 2 parts.

A technical section dealing with all of the performance, engineering, route planning and other aspects of our business, and a company related section for on the job training.

Currently in most of the UK's airlines you get plenty of Part 2 and very little of part 1.