Sky demon / ipad

[clinique_happy]

I'm thinking of buying sky demon for ipad is it any good?

Also I have ipad with wifi and 3g although dont have a data package will it still work?

Would I be able to tether the ipad to my iPhone to use the 3G signal to save my purchasing data?

Is sky demon reliable? I got lost on my first solo nav, have since been successful but am hoping having sky demon on ipad will give me more confidence etc? Is it like Tom Tom for car? Will I know if off track etc

Anticipate your responses

[juliet india mike]

Download the free trial and play with it. Does weather, notams, weight and balance, MSA all in one. NB trial version logs out after 30 mins so don't try it in flight without an alternative.

3G with wifi iPad has a GPS built in and works well.

Do your planning at home in a wifi environment, print your plog and off you go.

I think it's brilliant, just watch the temperature in the cockpit, it shuts down if too hot, and always have a chart with a line drawn on it, same as any GPS.

[Scott C]

I've been using SkyDemon on the iPad for over a year without any problems.

The signal coverage is good and it's a very stable program.

About 6 months ago I became a Beta Tester and some of the features that have been incorporated in that time as well as what are planned, in my opinion, make SkyDemon unrivalled!
As for the overheating, i've never had that problem and i've done a fair amount of flying in various countries in hot weather.

Having said all that, as you're still a student and to avoid getting in to the bad habit of ignoring your chart and following the 'magenta line', I would install SkyDemon Light on your iPad and if you want to use it on a PC/Laptop, go to: SkyDemon Light (http://www.skydemonlight.com)

If I remember rightly, with SkyDemon Light, you can plan your flights with it etc, but you can't use it as a GPS.

Give it a go, you won't regret it :-)

[RTN11]

If you're only on your second solo nav, I'd think twice about this.

At this stage of training the nav shouldn't be so challenging as to need GPS, and if you're still a low hours student you don't want lots of head in time being distracted by a big ipad, those things are actually quite big for a GA cockpit.

Perhaps talk to your instructor and see if you could use it during any lessons, but remember you wouldn't be able to use it for test so don't start getting used to relying on it.

[Cusco]

Where you're based is of significance: I somehow don't think you're UK based.

SD for example is not aimed at the US market and may also be variable in other european countries.

Beware also that SD/iPad can overheat in hot weather and just shut down: (Mine has, three times) so it's best to have backup nav in the form of a dedicated aviation GPS which, as a rule don't shut down in hot weather.

Don't get me wrong, SD is the D's Bs but I don't think OP should use it just yet...

Cusco.

[James1809]

In my opinion, getting Skydemon when you're still a student just starting out on Nav is a bit like passing your driving test and jumping straight into a shiny new Merc (Disclaimer: other car manufacturers are available). You won't master the nav skills anywhere near as well as you would with a good old map and plog, and as others have said, Skydemon can't help you when it comes to testing!

[BackPacker]

I agree with the others. At your stage of training, don't start using a GPS (any
GPS) just yet. Concentrate on the basics first, starting with dead reckoning, identifying visual features and such. Then master radio navigation, then master GPS. And by the time you start using GPS, don't try to do it on your own but get an instructor (or experienced pilot) to show you how to use GPS effectively, without becoming a slave to the magenta line.

As for your other questions: 3G is not required to operate SkyDemon. It's just that only the 3G iPads have a GPS built-in: The wifi-only iPads don't have a GPS. If you have a Wifi-only GPS you can get an external GPS like the Garmin Glo (but there are three or four others) and connect it to the iPad via Wifi or Bluetooth. These external GPSs are better, by the way, than the iPad internal GPS (higher sampling rate for starters), and they can be postioned in the best position for signal reception, so even with a 3G iPad some people choose to use an external GPS anyway.

At some point in time you do require internet connectivity though, to download SkyDemon itself, to download the airspace information (needs to be done every AIRAC cycle) and to download the latest weather/notams and such. Whether you do that via an internal 3G card, or tethered to your iPhone 3G plan, or via Wifi somewhere is up to you. It's not a SkyDemon specific issue.

I can testify to the overheating issue. It's a bit of a dilemma. If you leave the iPad on the coaming for best GPS reception, you run the risk over overheating. If you leave it on the seat next to you out of direct sunlight, you run the risk of signal loss. It's something you're just going to have to try out in your aircraft, as different aircraft have different characteristics in this respect.

[piperarcher]

I think the answer to all of your questions is yes. I use it on a iPad 2 with GPS (though with a data contract (though that shouldnt stop you using the GPS if you dont have it)), and its great.

BUT, if you are still learning, I would fight this temptation and forget about it for a while. I know it's good to be safe, and to use it to be 100% sure where you are, if your otherwise not sure, but your flights shouldnt be too challenging, and you are better off learning about other modes of finding out where you are (dead-reckoning, NDB's, VOR cross-cut's, calling D&D - whatever). Firing up an iPad will give you too much reliance on technology at this stage.

Pass the PPL, then get SD or whatever, throw away the whizz wheel, and then have fun using it.

[Rhino25782]

And by the time you start using GPS, don't try to do it on your own but get an instructor (or experienced pilot) to show you how to use GPS effectively, without becoming a slave to the magenta line.

Hi Backpacker,

Can you elaborate on this?

I'm very low hours post PPL and I've just added the GPS Nav option for my existing SkyDemon subscription and used it on the iPad Mini for the first time in flight this weekend. This was also one of my very early cross country flights as PIC with passengers. I loved the ease-of-mind and the extra confidence SkyDemon gave me - especially as I had more "mental capacity" to "be with" the passenger.

I like to think I used it in a pragmatic way. I did not follow the magenta line very much (as proven by the visual log of the actual flight path that you can view afterwards). In fact, I flew mostly visually as I know the area quite well (from the ground at least) and shot a glance at the moving map every now and then to reconfirm my general track and more importantly to stay away from nasty airspace.

However, are there any hints you had in mind when you wrote "how to use GPS effectively" that I can consider next time I fly?

Cheers

Patrick

[piperarcher]

However, are there any hints you had in mind when you wrote "how to use GPS effectively" that I can consider next time I fly?

I know you're not asking me directly ;-) but here is my opinion.

If you use GPS, I think before you get in the plane, make sure you know how it works, or at least the parts you are going to be using. What I mean is that if you find yourself lost or in controlled airspace, then a) it helps to have avoided that when planning on the ground, and b) if you think your GPS is giving you wrong information, its best to abandon it and get on with flying the plane than having your head down fiddling with knobs or touch screen buttons for ages.

Another exampe: I am fully comfortable with SD now, but as an VFR /IMCr pilot, I am not fully conversant with my Garmin GNS430 in terms of IFR procedures. I know how to use the FPL option and the Direct to and a few others bits and bobs, and I have flown one hold and one ILS approach using the GNS430 as backup. While I did that with a safety instructor, and while I have a GNS430 trainer on my PC, I would be foolish to shoot up into the air and think I could do any ILS approach at any airport without further on the ground planning or forethought.

[BackPacker]

What I think I'm trying to say is that there are two things to keep in mind.

First, the GPS allows you to do things (and in fact, some GPSs implicitly sort-of encourage you to do things) that are not all that bright, or even downright stupid. It starts with the GPS database. You will fly VFR but a lot of "formal" VRPs (as shown on the map) will not be in the GPS database. Made-up waypoints, such as highway intersections, that are great landmarks will not be in the GPS database either. This may tempt you to plan your route using whatever is in the GPS database and nothing else. Which means you plan your route from overhead whatever NAV beacon is convenient, to the overhead of whatever airfield is convenient and so forth. But airfields (and to a lesser extent, NAV beacons) are NOT good waypoints for x-country because a lot of stuff happens in their overhead (OHJs, parachute dropping, aerobatics, glider towing, whatnot), and the addition of x-country traffic is not a good idea. With SkyDemon it's easy to add your own waypoints (just drag the magenta line around) but not all GPSs are like that: Some require some serious fiddling with multiple buttons to get a waypoint in, and some even require you to put in lat/long coordinates. So be aware of this temptation and avoid it. (Similarly, the GPS allows you to skirt the edges of CAS very accurately. In fact, sometimes more accurately than the controllers radar scope is. Even if you are technically in the clear, it might lead to unnecessary discussions. So don't do this.) You are the master of the route, and the GPS is there to help you, not to limit you in your choice of route.

Second, the GPS may pack up at any time. Empty batteries, overheating, malfunction, user error, you name it. It has happened to most of us, and will probably happen again. What is your backup plan in that case? If you planned your route so that it can only be flown using GPS, you've got a problem now. But if you planned your route so that it can also be flown using dead reckoning, visual landmarks, radio navigation or something else, you're going to be fine.

And, of course, there is the issue of being thoroughly familiar with the unit. Particularly with the in-flight actions. Do you know which knob or knob combination gets you back to your "default" ("home") screen without thinking and without fail? (In a GNS430 this happens when you depress the CLR button for a second or so, but that's not obvious.) What are the settings of the GPS with regards to what information is shown? Does it show airspace boundaries above or below track, and if so, what is the vertical distance? Does it show major and minor ground features, how accurate are these, and how can you suppress them? Does the GPS do north-up or track-up, and how can you change between these? How does the GPS represent NAV beacons, airfields and other things, and how can you access information about these? How quickly can you setup a diversion to a new airport if something happens during the flight? Is it even worth starting to reprogram the GPS in case of a diversion, or are you better off asking for radar vectors? Does the GPS even show all potential diversion airfields, or does it suppress some because the runway is not deemed long enough. How long does a runway need to be before being included in the list?

Someone who is familiar with flying with a GPS (preferably your type of GPS in particular) will be able to walk you through all this. Most of which can happen on the ground. But if you spend hours heads-down in the cockpit while flying, trying to figure all this stuff out on your own, you're a disaster waiting to happen.

And that's just for VFR. For IFR flying your GPS may help you in flying departures, airways, arrivals and approaches. Even GPS approaches where the CDI sensitivity changes automatically. This requires more extensive knowledge of the unit, and the logic that it employs to do certain things. If you get a glass cockpit even more stuff will be integrated, giving you even more capability but requiring even more knowledge.

[Pittsextra]

I really don't get the continued GPS Nav fear and loathing.

Accepting that nothing should ever stop you from making a good plan having the GPS there is eminently sensible isn't it?

After all isn't the OP a low time pilot looking to learn as much as possible? My advice would be make your manual plan and relate your accuracy of flying that to the GPS Nav.

In the end quite frankly what is lost to many is that once you have been at it a few years flying VFR is largely done from memory of having done it for those few years...

Its all very well suggesting that the GPS can fail but how is that so very different from a low time pilot getting lost. Then what happens? Fuel gets low, panic and stress sets in and before you know it a perfectly good aircraft is in trouble, maybe even put down in a field.

IMO it should be compulsory for low time pilots to fly with GPS nav as a back up all the time.

[BackPacker]

IMO it should be compulsory for low time pilots to fly with GPS nav as a back up all the time.

I'm not arguing that. But the OP is not yet a low time pilot. He's still training to be a pilot in the first place. So learn the basics first. Visual features, dead reckoning, then move on to radio nav, then move on to GPS. All under the guidance of an instructor or experienced pilot. Know the ways the methods or equipment can fail, and plan adequately for that.

And I don't have a problem with using GPS as a primary nav. As long as you have a plan B.

[Pilot.Lyons]

I agree that whilst learning you should NOT use gps and to work solely with charts and dead reckoning.

Once passed and comfortable then start to get familiar with a gps unit or two. It is very VERY easy to just follow the magenta line and even when you know you shouldnt..... You still end up doing it from time to time.

I use sky demon and i love it, i would prefer the view to be a standard chart as thats the look im comfortable with.

I have air nav pro with the same route programmed in on my iPhone as a back up and once when coming back from swansea my external gps over heated and cut out (ipad was not 3g so had no internal gps chip) and i had only 10% left on my iPhone battery 100nm out from base! (It obviously wasn't going to last as i had charged it fully before leaving that day)
Good job i drew the lines on my chart too!

Technology is brilliant but if all of it fails (although rare) its good to know you can be comfortable doing it the old fashion way.

I do think everyone should have a gps just in case you wonder off track a bit through a narrow corridor and may infringe in someones airspace for example.

Just my 2 pence worth

Good luck with your training either way, i actually miss mine! I enjoyed it so much

[Rhino25782]

hat I think I'm trying to say is that there are two things to keep in mind.

Thanks for that. All very good points that should be common sense, but worth spending some conscious thinking time on.

[The_Pink_Panther]

Much as everyone has already said. Become a good navigator first. You’ll have to identify where you are when lost using radio nav on your test, so don’t start relying on GPS until you have your licence and then use it as backup to confirm where you are/heading. The number of NOTAMs on GPS jamming I've seen continue to make me nervous, but as it's a backup, it works.

I started flying with GPS almost immediately after getting my licence, completely down to that fact that the radio nav kit only worked on 1 of the 4 club aircraft, and the CFI would change your booking to non-radio nav aircraft as that was also the “nicest” aircraft, and he wanted to keep it that way… It’s a good back up, but you’ve got to master navigating without it.

[chrisbl]

The IPad does have a tendency to freeze with Sky Demon (IOS6) problem, so you better be ready to chuck it in the back and navigate by yourself.

[tmmorris]

As I said in another thread, see here:

iPad4 and GNS1000 (http://www.skydemon.aero/forums/Topic8422.aspx)

as you appear on the face of it to be wrong.

[thing]

Just to add to Backpacker's post, you can put in your own permanent waypoints with SD which I'm sure many of us do, mine has about a hundred and counting. As he says the 'natural' waypoints IE good visual references aren't always nav beacons etc.

I would also go along with the general consensus that you need to learn to navigate first; not as a 'I have to do this to pass my skills test then I can use my GPS' but to be able navigate with a map, stopwatch and compass confidently and correctly. Every month or so I do a longish flight somewhere I haven't been before using just the basics to stay on top of my nav skills. Apart from anything else I enjoy it.

Going on from what Pitt's said, eventually and fairly quickly you will get to know all of the local and extended nav features. I reckon you could blindfold me and put me anywhere within a 50 mile radius of my airfield and I could happily navigate back purely on memory. That's not because I'm some kind of super pilot; it's just that you get to know what all of the landmarks look like from the air, the further afield you fly, the more gets filed in your memory. It's surprising what does get filed away without you being conscious of it.

You wouldn't bother with a Tom Tom to drive to the local town, eventually your flying will get like that.

[LowNSlow]

tmmorris followed the advice on the thread you highlighted and all is now working as advertised. Cheers :ok::ok:

[stevelup]

The IPad does have a tendency to freeze with Sky Demon (IOS6) problem, so you better be ready to chuck it in the back and navigate by yourself.

I've done 70 hours with an iPad / SD / iOS 6 and it has never frozen once.

[G-F0RC3]

When I first got my SD GPS about a year ago, I tested it out in my car a few times before I took it into the air. It was quite fun to hear all the warnings about airspace and obstacles and whatnot. Not a very great way of testing out the features, but better than nothing! :p