laa permit aircraft for tug use

[mydogsprat]

Many thanks in advance to anyone taking the time to answer my questions and read my ramblings. Please assume I know nothing whatsoever about aircraft.
My son wants to be a commercial pilot and has done for years. He has put lots of effort into his dream gaining 5 gcse, 2 a level’s and is now in his final year of a science degree. He has also done about 30hrs in a motor glider with an instructor.
His instructor has now told me that he needs to progress onto a different aircraft as he has advanced beyond the motor glider, he suggested a euro fox, he also advised me that I should be looking for an LAA permit aircraft with a mogas engine as they are relatively cheap to run and maintain. The instructor’s airfield has planning restrictions limiting it to glider, motor glider and glider tug use, but we could store the aircraft in his hanger and use his runway if the aircraft complied with the restriction by having a tow hook.
I don’t have euro fox money and have struggled to raise £35k. this I hoped would get my son to ppl and then hour building towards cpl. My plan was to buy an aircraft, my son use it as long as he needed and then sell it to pay for the next step in his training.
I did think that a zenair ch 601 would be perfect until I found out the wings have failed in use on 7 occasions killing 11 people.
Are second hand LAA permit aircraft safe?
What do they cost to maintain?
I really don’t know what to do for the best and don’t have a clue what I should be looking for or doing in order to help the best I can. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

[500 above]

His instructor has now told me that he needs to progress onto a different aircraft as he has advanced beyond the motor glider, he suggested a euro fox, he also advised me that I should be looking for an LAA permit aircraft with a mogas engine as they are relatively cheap to run and maintain. The instructor’s airfield has planning restrictions limiting it to glider, motor glider and glider tug use, but we could store the aircraft in his hanger and use his runway if the aircraft complied with the restriction by having a tow hook.

Are you sure his instructor isn't simply after a new free tug and pilot? Buy him a share (c £5000) in a Cessna 150 or a PA28.

[mydogsprat]

100% sure that is not the case. his instructor runs a flight school with just a motor glider.
nearest airfield to us is 90mins by car other than this small one. son not old enough to drive.

[RTN11]

Would the eurofox be in the right weight category to count for hour building towards a CPL? Not sure under new EASA rules what goes for hour building towards CPL, just know that microlights don't count, you'd have to check up on the status of the eurofox.

You say you want to buy it, operate it so he can build his hours then sell it to fund the remainder of the training. You won't be making any money on it, so why not just spend the money on training at a proper school like everyone else does, rather than investing all your capital into an aircraft where it will be tied up if you are unable to sell it at the end. Aircraft ownership is very expensive, and an aircraft sitting in the hanger isn't doing anyone any favours. The best rate will be at a busy FTO where the aircraft are flown almost as much as possible, and if it breaks down for any reason there will be another one parked right next to it also owned by the FTO which you can take on. What happens when you get a prop strike or someone cooks the cylinders while tugging? who's paying for the new engine?

[mydogsprat]

not going to be used for tugging, it needs to be able to tow in order to comply with a planning restriction on the airfield. this airfield would be very cheap, very close and my sons instructor will be onsite.
i am told that i can run an aircraft in this category for about £35 hour wet, buy one for about £20k and sell a year later for a small loss.
i am also told that if my son is the sole owner he can use it for his training.

[jollyrog]

Whatever the outcome, your supportive attitude is a pleasure to read.

I'm with the others though, buy him a share or rent for the hour building. Sole ownership is a very expensive way to do it and fraught with risk. It will cost you a fortune to keep the asset airworthy and could be scary money when it has some kind of mechanical failure, which may not even be your son's fault.

I run a six person group so am very in touch with our expenses and accounting.

[jollyrog]

He must be old enough to drive if he's done A levels and is in a degree. Spend some of the saved money on driving lessons and a car for him, let him drive the 90 minutes.

[HWEST]

How many hours has your son accumulated so far?

I'm sure the British Microlight Association (BMAA.org) still run sponsorship. You and your son, working hard as you are, may be able to get a microlight scholarship.

[mydogsprat]

no he is not old enough to drive.

he has done 40hrs in a motor glider and 6 in a cessna 172. he has however only been able to log 9 of them due to age.

[mydogsprat]

To clarify the situation a bit.
I have been told he needs a further 36 hrs for his ppl @ £200 per hour at the closest airfield offering flight training which is 90mins each way by car. Then another 100hrs @£114 per hour towards his cpl. Or £18400 total.
His instructor has recommended he buys a ” light sport aircraft.” I have found them with about 200 hrs on them for around £20k his instructor says that you can run them for around £35hr wet and would charge £30 hr for his training. He also says that we would lose very little reselling it maybe £2-£3k. So 36 hrs @ £65 then 100 hrs @35 is a total of £5840 + depreciation is still half the price (if nothing goes badly wrong)
I don’t know enough to decide if this is a good idea, or how safe these “light sport aircraft” are as most of them were sold as kits. I also feel it would be an advantage for my son to be able to fly whenever he likes/can.
Would a share in something work out cheaper? Would he be able to use an aircraft he had a share in for his ppl training? I am told things like Cessna 150 ect are now thought of as “old iron” and are rotting on airfields in droves because they cost so much to run, is this true?
Thanks to all so far that have taken the time to respond. As you can see I have limited knowledge of all things aviation.

[RTN11]

Also, the Eurofox is a lousy tug. It can't handle the heavier two seat trainers, especially with no wind and wet grass. Although the impression you give is that it would not be used for tugging, but just converted so it could tug to satisfy some arbitrary requirement at your airfield.

Sounds like your son is looking to get a CPL, he would need an EASA PPL would would need to be done in an EASA aircraft, which the Eurofox certainly isn't.

If he was looking to train for an LAPL in the Eurofox, be very careful, as any down time of the aircraft can seriously hold up flight training wasting more money, time and effort.

I really do not want to crush your enthusiasm, I just think you need to explore a different route, and that this instructor may have been looking for someone to get a new tug for the gliding strip so has fed you the lines that are best for him rather than best for your son.

[FoxtrotLimaYankee]

If you are at Lleweni Parc in North Wales as I suspect, (with Denbigh flight training) the words "barge pole" and "wouldn't touch with" immediately come to mind. This is with first hand experience of the place.

I echo the advise you have been given by other forum members, just bite the bullet and go to a training school/club.

[Oldbiggincfi]

Your son is training at a Gliding site ?
Does he fly Gliders ?
If not ? Why not?
With a BGA Glider Pilot Licence ( Bronze With X/C endorsement) already has enough hrs to convert to a NPPL.

Has he had a CAA medical ?
There's no point spending money unless a Class 1 can be acheived.

I think you need to do more research into how he could achieve his ambition at minimum cost.

When he's finished his Degree and worked hard to get top grade why not try to get an Airline to sponsor.

You never Know there maybe a place for him !

[mydogsprat]

many thanks indeed for all the info. you have all cleared things up a bit for me and things are starting to make sense.
the info i had prior to starting this thread was clearly a dead horse and i shall stop flogging it.

Your son is training at a Gliding site ?
yes
Does he fly Gliders ?
motor glider
If not ? Why not?
With a BGA Glider Pilot Licence ( Bronze With X/C endorsement) already has enough hrs to convert to a NPPL.
thanks for the info
Has he had a CAA medical ?
no
There's no point spending money unless a Class 1 can be acheived.
i will look into it asap, thanks.
I think you need to do more research into how he could achieve his ambition at minimum cost.
doing that now, started this thread to pick all of your brains.
When he's finished his Degree and worked hard to get top grade
predicted 2.1
why not try to get an Airline to sponsor.
or he could learn to ride one of the many pigs that passes overhead:)

You never Know there maybe a place for him !

[shortstripper]

You are talking serious amounts of money, so I'd carry on putting serious amounts of thought into this!

How old is your son? Any hours logged from age 14 can count towards both his PPL and CPL.
He can use 30 hours flying motor gliders to count toward his CPL. An NPPL SLMG converted to PPL would probably be his easiest route to a PPL with his present experience, so there's little point in changing to SEP until he gets that.
Once he has his NPPL SLMG he could convert easily with a few hours at a reputable flying school flying EASA SEP as he will need (for want of a better phrase) Group A SEP hours, not microlight ones to credit towards his CPL.
It's not really worth him buying a permit aircraft until he gets his PPL as it's a mire of regulation about where, who by, and what he can train in to get an EASA SEP PPL (which is what he will need). Yes he could train in his own aircraft, but with what experience he has, he's close enough to get the PPL easily without the confusion of regulations ect.
Once he has his PPL, an LAA permit aeroplane is a good way to go for hour building. For cheapness (and IMHO reliability and safety) buy something like a Jodel or other well proven design (maybe single seater for really cheap) rather than a more modern kit build. They may be older, but they will be well proven and fly safely. If hangarage is a problem go for something with folding wings (some may scoff, but look up Clutton FRED to get an idea of what I mean).
People will come along and say it's not the "right" kind of flying to lead to a CPL, but I would argue that a wide variety of flying is just what a CPL should have! If he's serious, a cheap single seat PFA type is perfect for hour building. A relatively fast one would probably be best (ok, not a FRED lol) as he will need at least one long cross country (ideally several) under his belt for a CPL.
What his instructor suggests has some merit, but like others have said ... It sounds like some self interest is creeping in there! I certainly would not recommend what he/she is suggesting.

Be careful what you decide!

Good luck to him, SS

[SlipSlider]

He has put lots of effort into his dream gaining 5 gcse, 2 a level’s and is now in his final year of a science degree.

son not old enough to drive.

no he is not old enough to drive.

So he's not yet 17 years old, but has almost finished a science degree.

Right ....

:ugh:

[mydogsprat]

So he's not yet 17 years old, but has almost finished a science degree.

Right ....

correct.

[500 above]

100% sure that is not the case. his instructor runs a flight school with just a motor glider.

I wouldn't be so sure, but maybe I'm cynical having been in the industry for a while. Has the instructor suggested that he 'looks after' or 'manages' the aircraft? Perhaps he has stated that he could utilise the aircraft a bit to 'mitigate' costs...?

What his instructor suggests has some merit, but like others have said ... It sounds like some self interest is creeping in there! I certainly would not recommend what he/she is suggesting.

Absolutely!

Sounds like your son is looking to get a CPL, he would need an EASA PPL would would need to be done in an EASA aircraft, which the Eurofox certainly isn't.

You need to look into this. Don't take a (possibly impartial?) glider instructors word for it. The poster is absolutely correct. Your son needs an EASA PPL(A), remember.

Would a share in something work out cheaper? Would he be able to use an aircraft he had a share in for his ppl training? I am told things like Cessna 150 ect are now thought of as “old iron” and are rotting on airfields in droves because they cost so much to run, is this true?

I'd strongly suggest he joins a small (4 person) group on an aircraft which is capable/legal for night flight for the night qualification, flight in IMC for the IR(R) and obviously for the PPL(A). This is indeed possible.

With a small group with the right members (weekend flyers etc) he would have most of the week to train for the above. Larger groups may pose a problem on more than one front. Seek impartial advice! The benefit of doing the above with a share in an aircraft based at an airfield/airport that offers decent commercial training is that he would already be familiar with that airports procedures and airspace. On saying that, I 'grew up' flying Luscombe's, Condors and a Chipmunk in and out of many short farm strips for fun. Flying from a controlled field in his early stages can also promote discipline in R/T etc. All of this can be learnt under any decent instructor from any sort of airfield/airport, however.

[cockney steve]

@ 500 above offers a lot of good advice, there.
I know of one PPL who had a nominal share in an AERONCA (1950's fabric covered, swing the prop to start AKA "Armstrong" starting:}

a very cheap PPL by comparison with "spam-can" rental....BUT AFAIK, due to all the regulatory changes, you won't be allowed to do an EASA PPL on a Permit aircraft (which I think is classified as "Annex 2" ....in plain english, it's a UK only , unless permission is sought from another country, to use it in their airspace.)...also, though a 2-seater and enormous fun, it was as slow as hell and guzzled AVGAS which is far more expensive than pump petrol, AKA MOGAS.
Permit aircraft, you can maintain yourself...a major cost-consideration other than Hangarage and insurance...not much use if you're not a spannerman.
A look on "Flyer" forum could be of benefit, several of the regulars here, also contribute over there!
I'm sure someone will be along to correct me shortly!...what I DO know ,is there is a directive from Cessna, to do a lot of inspection and replacement work on their ancient Spamcans (150/152/172 are the majority of cessna flying-school trainers) this means a lot will be , as you surmised, "beyond economic repair" SO BEWARE CHEAP CESSNA DEALS where the SID's have not been complied with.!!!!

If your son is going to fly and hours-build intensively, then ownership *could* make sense, but he'd need to do around 100 hours a year to make it worthwhile.
Why does everyone assume he needs a car to get to the nearest "proper" airfield?....motorbike/scooter would teach him more roadcraft than all the "learn to pass your test" driving schools combined.....a compromise would be the odd BMW fully-faired "scooter "- effectively a 2-wheel microcar with no sides!
Alternatively, there's stuff such as the AIXAM and Ligier which is a tiny car legally a quadricycle....slow, but enclosed and ultra cheap on tax / insurance and fuel...drive them on a motorcycle license.

Browse this forum and you'll soon pick up the jargon and get a feel for the nature of Aviation....see the LAA website for information about Permit aircraft and their relevance to EASA (which, it appears, is now the universal diktat of all things Aviation in Europe)
To just fly, Microlights *can* be ,at first viewing, *normal* light aircraft, but a reduction in engine-size and / or increase in wing-area makes for the reclassification. British Microlight Association website

My personal take on it , - the less regulated by EASA the more restrictive the usage and the more limited the class-specific license.

IF you browse the forums, you'll pick up an essential piece of advice
"NEVER PAY A LARGE SUM UP FRONT TO A TRAINING-ORGANISATION.

They go bust with monotonous regularity, taking all the prepaid dosh with them.

Sorry, long post, but so much ground to cover!

[funfly]

Having owned a few aircraft myself I would strongly recommend sharing ownership. Life looking after an aircraft can be worrying at times, it is wonderful to have someone else to bounce concerns and ideas off of.
Owning on your own can be a lonely experience.

[mydogsprat]

so i am now thinking after all this good advice.

1. medical

2. lapl using the motor glider he is flying at the moment (£99 hr instructed)

3. flight school for 10hrs in an easa aircraft to gain ppl.

4. get hold of a cheap single seat aircraft or buy a share in one for hour building.

can he use a non easa aircraft for hour building?

are all laa permit aircraft non easa?

how do aircraft shares work?

thanks again.

[shortstripper]

Hi again,

Never count hours required as hours needed. If 10 hours are required he may very well do it in that time as he's young and probably learns fast, but it's no guarantee. Hours stated are minimums and often more are needed to reach the required standard.
Yes you can use LAA aircraft for hour building even though they are Annexe 2 not EASA.
Shares work easily enough. An aircraft is owned equally by say four people. When one owner sells their share, the new owner (assuming approved by the other owners) pays the asking price then pays a quarter of the fixed costs such as insurance and hangarage. The group will have worked out an hourly rate (either wet or dry of fuel) and that is paid for hours flown. Most groups have rules requiring minimum hours though, and possibly tailwheel differences (as most LAA shares are in taildraggers) ... Motorgliders are taildraggers - so no problem for him (his lack of hours might be a problem). If buying outright, I would make sure you find a good local LAA inspector to find a good one and go for a single seater. You can pick one up under £5K and the costs/risk will be less than a two seater.

SS

[mydogsprat]

@ shortstripper. many thanks.

[Crash one]

I have here a print out of LAA document TL 2:09.

"Learning to fly in a LAA aircraft is quite legal, but the following conditions apply.

1) Training towards EASA & non EASA licences or ratings is permissible, & flight time conducted in LAA aircraft counts rowards those required under EASA towards licence or rating issue, renewal, or revalidation.

Initial Licence or Rating

2) An owner may recieve remunerated (or un-remunerated) flight training towards an initial licence or rating in his own LAA aircraft provided he is a "sole" owner & not part of a group ownership."
etc, etc.

Try getting in touch with LAA. By the way, yes second hand LAA a/c are perfectly safe. Mine was built 1959 & has just received it's permit yet again. Similar a/c can be had for ~£12k.

[Rod1]

It is possible to get your licence on an LAA machine and save a lot of cash but it is complex if you are new to GA.

You need a suitable aircraft, a Jodel 112 could work in this case at a cost around £10,000. This is a two seat aircraft and was the standard French flying school trainer in the 60’s/70’s/80’s. To do this you need a good inspector and you need to learn to do your own maintenance under his supervision.

You need an instructor who will teach on the aircraft

You need a place to base it which works for the instructor.

Put that together and you can get a licence and hour build for very little cash. At the end of the exercise, provided you have looked after the aircraft you will get about the same money back as you paid. Risk is something goes bang and costs you £15k to fix, but if you know what you are doing / have a good inspector this is unlikely.

There was a study done comparing the safety record of LAA aircraft v C of A types over 20 years that showed no difference in safety. There are bad LAA aircraft and bad C of A ones; all comes back to a really good inspector. I have owned a verity of LAA machines ranging from a 1946 C120 to a state of the art MCR01 which I built from a kit 8 years ago and have just toured France in for a week.

Rod1

[dhc83driver]

If the final goal is to fly for the airlines then the route you are choosing may not be the best. Airlines tend to tag students during approved courses and also part sponsor as they get a reliable product at the end There is also the multi crew only licence. waiting and going on a course at OAT or FTE may be expensive but will probably improve employment prospects. Flying Tugs is not to be taken lightly, Insurance is expensive and not for the low hour pilots. Silver C gliding is a good experience to have to be able to know what the glider pilot wants out of the tow he is paying for.

Getting a class one medical is essential book the initial at LGW and get it done. without it you are going no where in the airlines.

My advice let him go gliding its cheap will keep him busy (gliding is cheap in cost but expensive in time).It teaches good solid flying skills and airmanship and It is a great way to network. Go for a PPL if you wish but if you go down the route of an approved course then you will not get very much if any credit for having it.

This is all from personal experience from a 13yr old glider pilot to my current position of a trainer with one of the major airlines.

Feel free to PM