Flight engineers

[FlyingForFun]

I was talking about flying with a friend in the pub last night, when he asked me a question I didn't know the answer to:

How/why does one become a flight engineer???

Is FE a step on the ladder up to FO/Captain on certain types? Or is it a career in itself? My friend wondered if FEs are "failed pilots" - I thought this was unlikely, but didn't know for certain.

Thanks!

FFF
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[Semaphore Sam]

F/E...an honorable job, but a dead end position (like radio operator and navigator). The job lives on, while older aircraft still fly, but these positions are diminishing rapidly. This is NOT a career entry level position. I really wish we had them on my flight deck. We don't; that's reality, and the future. F/E's don't have political pull, and can't buck obsolencence (as 'connected' entities can, like the anachronistic Concorde).

[TR4A]

In the States, some majors that still have 3-man crews. The FE IS an entry level position or junior position.

[FlyingForFun]

Hmm, two conflicting answers - not what I was expecting!

Sam, if F/E is "not a career entry level position", then who becomes a F/E? Would someone set out to be a F/E? Or is it more like a step on the route to long-haul pilot, maybe after spending a while on smaller aircraft, doing short-haul stuff? What would one have typically done before becoming a F/E? F/O? Captain of smaller aircraft?

I realise, by the way, that there are very few F/E positions around any more. I should probably use past tense (e.g. "Who would have become a F/E") but I'm reluctant to do so because I know there are still a few F/Es out there who do an excellent job...

Sam/TR4A (nice car, btw...) - are you able to say which airlines your information comes from? I'm interested in why there's the difference of opinion - is it just a cultural difference between the US and other parts of the world?

Thanks for your replies,

FFF
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[tinyrice]

It might be semantics. For an airline to engage a "Flight engineer" there has to be someplace for him/her to ride sidesaddle. In todays two driver world, thats becoming harder and harder as three seat aeroplanes disappear to the desert. Airlines are hiring "Second Officers"( insert your airlines name for them ) who while theres a seat, start by flying the panel, and then as seniority permits, they move up to a window seat. They are not professional F/E's, but they perform the function. There are airlines that use, for want of a better term, "cruise pilots". While the senior crew is taking a break on long haul flights, these people drive. They are not usually permitted to take-off or land, but in an emergency would perform quite admirably. Perhaps thats where the "confusion" is arising? As one poster pointed out and it is true, the F/E is going the way of the navigator, radio operator, and gaslamp lighter.

[Semaphore Sam]

Hi FFF
I don't think it depends on geography...my airline still flies classic 747's, with F/E's either upgrading to F/O (young) or just flying out til retirement (not so young). I started my airline career as an L1011 F/E; the job just doesn't exist anymore, sad to say, except for a few oddball exceptions (Gov, any contributions?).

An interesting aside: a F/E union is still on strike in the US; has been since the '60's, I think, when the airlines made F/E a pilot position (2nd Officer), and the F/E career was killed. Sad.

[GlueBall]

In the U.S. some 60 year old captains elect to continue their airline career by downgrading to Flight Engineer, a position that has no mandatory retirement age. But every month fewer (classic) airplanes with "System Operator" stations remain in the World's fleets. :(

[Intruder]

In the US, many Professional Flight Engineers started out as Crew Chiefs or Flight Engineers in military transport airplanes that required them.

There are still a few airlines (mostly cargo carriers) that hire PFEs, but the number of jobs is steadily decreasing as the DC-8s, 727s, DC-10s, and 747-200s are being replaced by 757s, 767s, and 747-400s.

Virtually all the passenger airlines that have 3-crew airplanes hire Pilot- and FE-qualified "Second Officers" to fill the FE seat as an entry-level position. Most of those bid up to higher-paying First Officer seats as soon as possible.

[FlyingForFun]

Thanks for the replies, everyone.

All very interesting stuff - at least I'll have somewhere to start if anyone asks me about this again in the future! Sounds like there isn't, and hasn't ever been, a specific route to becoming a F/E - it depends very much on the operator. But in general, it seems that some F/Es are very junior, hoping to get moved up, others are very experienced, possibly no longer being able to act as pilot due to the age 60 rule.

Cheers,

FFF
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[Georgeablelovehowindia]

FlyingForFun: Yes, there most definately WAS a career path to the flight engineer's position, in the UK at anyrate. You joined one of the airlines as an engineering apprentice, gained your licences, got some experience, then if you fancied it, you applied to become a flight engineer. This meant passing a medical, selection tests, etc. It worked primarily in BOAC, but also in British Eagle, BCAL, Monarch, etc. The alternative route was via the RAF and a considerable number of flight engineers were recruited this way by the UK airlines, especially in the 1960s/early 70s.
The term flight engineer in the USA is generally a misnomer for a pilot operating the systems panel on a 727 or somesuch, waiting for the seniority number to come up and allow promotion to the right hand seat. In the UK, such a person on the panel of a BEA Trident, for example, would be referred to as P3 and in this instance, would be qualified and interchangeable with P2. (Is that clear as mud now?)
With the demise of the 747 Classic, DC-10, 727 and TriStar the job of the specialist flight engineer is rapidly disappearing. With one or two disappointing exceptions, they are a wonderful bunch, but I suppose the same applies to pilots!