Views on the job market and low-hour job possibilities.

[Quicksilver]

Hi all,

All the attempts to search have thrown up very little....

Have any of you got advice for those of us with few hours on a fresh CPL/IR and want to get in the air, requirements, who to contact and where to start the research;

eg.
Co-Pilot Exec Jets
Banner Towing
Flight instruction

Etc.

Thanks in advance


Quicksilver

[theharrier]

You must have been reading my mind!! I'm thinking about embarking on an integrated ATPL course at the end of the year and at the end of it I'll be lucky if I come away with a total of 350 hours (taking into account what I've got from my PPL already). Over the past few weeks I've been looking at airline requirements for pilot recruitment and the minimum experience seems to be around 1000hrs!!

I find it hard to believe that everyone becomes a Flight Instructor etc straight after qualifying with a Frozen ATPL but as you say how else can you gain the flying experience!?! I'll watch this thread with interest........:confused:

It's a crazy old world we're throwing ourselves into................all the best mate!

[MAX]

This isnt much help I know, but jobs are very hard to find. If I knew of someone looking for a low hour pilot I would be keeping it to myself. Times are tough gentleman, as Im sure you are aware. Get me a job and Ill spill the beans.

MAX:cool:

[Quicksilver]

Max,

Thanks for your reply, but I was looking for guidence more than names and addresses.

It's a difficult path getting the qualifications, but at least it's well documented....

If anyone has the benefit of experience in this, please pass it on and we'll do the same when we've got there.


Cheers

Quicksilver.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Try running a search - this generalised topic has come up in many different forms over the years.

WWW

[Ivan Ivanovich]

If you are 34 or under it's worth trying CTC Aviation. They have had some good advertising benefit from this forum recently, use the search facility.

CTC Aviation (www.ctcaviation.co.uk)

Instructing is arguably the better route to take. You are going to gather so much more knowledge and experience this way than temping or pursuing a non flying stop gap role. Unfortunately since September an awful lot of CPL/IR graduates have gained FIC ratings and the job market for instructors is perhaps as lean as it is for airline work.

Maybe the ideal solution is to instruct at weekends - always more requirement than weekdays - and work Monday to Friday in a job that is more likely to pay off your debts.

For what it's worth, I went down the instructor route and, if I had my time again, would do the same.

Good Luck!

[featherman]

Quicksilver,

As is quite often the case, getting that elusive first job isn't easy. One thing it is not, however, is impossible. The first thing to have in your mind is exactly why it is you want to get into this profession. It is NOT about glamour, money and the like but more a fundamental love of aviation and all the crappy bits associated with it. Enough said...the important factor is get organized and get busy!
A few points that may help:

1/ Keep a file on every name, phone no. and address you apply to. In this rapidly changing world of aviation it is not uncommon to be writing to the same person twice with two different company’s. As for addresses etc..well they are all out there, the internet, Flight Int. guide...etc...etc.

2/ Personal reference is everything...more so than hours in SOME cases. Don't burn bridges..You'll soon realise what a tiny community exists in aviation. If your intro letter starts of...I am writing on the advice of my good friend Capt......It WILL get read.

3/ Follow up and track every letter. 99 times out of 100 nothing other than a curt response is what you'll get. Persevere. You'll swing an interview eventually.

4/ Attend the seminars, join the unions, keep on the web and read the back pages of Flight Int. WHS.

5/ Don't rule out the flying instructors route. I vowed never to do this...turned out to be an absolute blast and paved a quick route to a jet job...AFTER Sept.11th.

6/ Be careful of flying for peanuts for some dodgy single-pilot outfit to gain "experience"....is it really worth the stress (you've worked hard for the license already)...and what use is zillions of single pilot hours when what you really want is multi-crew job.

7/ Keep the faith...things are improving all the time...remember why it was you wanted to be a pilot (and don't say 'cause it's the uniform and hosties!).

Lot's more I could add but hope that helps...
Good Luck!!

[The Greaser]

I go along 100% with featherman. Even in the current climate there are opportunities out there for the dedicated.
Quicksilver. You are lucky that you live and work in America - I wholeheartedly suggest getting your CFI and working in that position for a year or so. Even in the current 'climate' there is loads of hours to be had teaching in the states, whereas over here in Europe the same can not be said. In a year or so you can make over a 1000 hours, and if you can get your MEI and get some twin hours then when the regionals start hiring again next year then you will be in a good position.
I instructed for 18 months in the US before returning to the UK last summer, and since 11 Sep I have had 3 interviews, finally succeeding recently in getting a place with CTC on the ATP scheme.
Good Luck, be patient and work your butt off - you will succeed.

[STATLER]

I like 99.99% of others are watching the job market with interest, hoping that those laid off post 9.11 were being picked up by the airlines that now find themselves with expanding routes, renewed customer confidence etc etc.
I had the view that eventually(soon) they would all be re-employed and that the regionals would start to pickup those of us near the bottom of the chain(once again) and things would start to look a little more hopeful for us all. But alas no, after receiving another round of rejection letters I had a ring around the few contacts at the airlines I have, and the answer I seem to be getting is that they still have a large number of C.V's on file from the more qualified type rated people around us.
I posted somewhat naively the other day that Virgin had just announced that they intend to recruit 300 staff into various non flying positions and that things were starting to improve. Where in fact Virgin that very day were waving bye bye to the first 744 f/o's to be made redundant.
So to my questions and points:
1) How many type rated people are still looking for work?

2) How many people are employed but have redundancy notices hanging over them?

3) i'm fairly lucky to have an instructor job and continue to fly for little personnal expense but for the usual renewals, how are those out there with 200hrs CPL/I.R funding your flying and managing to stay current?
I have to admit that I was fairly sceptical of other peoples views regarding wannabees putting off training for the CPL at this difficult time, but I now find myself in total agreement because I am watching students study,train,pass and then join the queue for jobs with quite substantial debt when in fact the market IMHO is still swamped with highly qualified individuals.

Thoughts and views most appreciated

[scroggs]

This subject has been discussed in infinitessimal detail over the last few months, and a search will quickly uncover the major relevant threads.

Nothing has changed to alter our (the Pprune Wannabes professional staff) view that it would be 18 months to two years after 9/11 before any significant easing up of the job market took place - world wide. The numbers made unemployed (about 10% of the free world's airline pilot workforce) are just too large to be easily reabsorbed. Any resussitated or new routes will use up the maximum availabe productivity of both remaining crews and aircraft before a large-scale re-employment of those laid off can be countenanced by the accountants. That is some way off - in Virgin's case, we lost 255 flight crew. Since the beginning of this year, the projection of the crew numbers required has not altered significantly, but through early retirement, voluntary redundancy and part-time working, about 40 have been retrieved from compulsory redundancy. That leaves 125 pilots (the other 90 are flight engineers, who are in a far worse predicament) still to be reabsorbed - and not very many of them have found alternative employment.

This picture is reflected throughout the industry. In the meantime, God knows (as does WWW) how many have graduated from flight schools, and how many more have entered training. I would guess that somewhere around 2500 qualified pilots - CPL and above - are currently looking for work in UK. I would estimate that there will be no more than 150 UK airline flight deck jobs available this year. You do the sums.

[scroggs]

Interesting that this thread should be dropping out of sight while a stage-managed storm-in-a-teacup rages! Has no-one any further thoughts on this, rather important, topic?

[Gin Slinger]

agree very important topic - to those concerned, including me!

Currently investigating a J1 visa to instruct, plus rather fancy going native after a long chat with a Belgian guy about flying around Africa.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Well take it from me there's still work around. I got laid off from my instructing job post Sep 11 and felt pretty sorry for myself for a while there, as those of you who read my posts at the time might recall. There's about a 4 month gap in my log book for sure, but I never gave up on the job search ... and lo and behold about 6 weeks ago I hooked up with a lovely little job, flying some extremely well kitted out piston twins. It ain't my dream job but it's air transport, it's a damn sight better paid than the old instructing was, and it'll do me just nicely until some jet operator gets around to giving me the golden phone call :D

No doubt it's going to take a while for the big boys to resume normal hiring ops as Scroggs says, but that doesn't mean that all we wannabes should go do nothing for the next couple of years. Even more than it was before, I say it should be business as usual for the out of work FATPL holder - there's only one way you're going to get a job in these tight times and that's get those CVs out there.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Firstly, on a personal note, well done Luke - glad to see things worked out for you.

The original thread was job options for low time pilots in the UK.

My advice is to get a non-flying job with as high a pay as possible and to use that pay to retain currency on a decent sim.

Fly 4 hrs a month on a decent PNPT2 or better sim. Just fly a SID to and Airway then head for a STAR. Team up with another person in the same boat and be picky with one another about accuracy. Each time make it a Instrument procedure with which you are unfamiliar - just download one each time from the UK AIP online.

This will best serve you when it comes to sim ride time for yur first job. In the meantime you can network and build up information dossiers on target companies so when you get to that interview you can BLOW THEM AWAY when they ask - What do you know about us/why do you want to join.

Hell you've got 18 months - I would find out the names of the cleaners in that time.

As for the market. Well. I have put the figures on threads before - try searching for threads like "6 months on" or "an assessment of the job market" by me since 911.

I was just chatting in the pub last night to a friend of mine going through OATS at the moment. Its all quite depressing.

If you look at cancelled hiring, cadets that got the bullet plus redundancies the inital 911 hit was about 300 pilot positions. In the fallout months about the same numbers of line experienced pilots came onto the market. easyJet and Go and Ryanair hired about half that number leaving something like 300 line experienced guys out there.

Since 911 of course there have been new licences issued. In the order of 450 pilots have graduated from CPL IR courses since and I doubt more than a handful found work. A similar amount will find the same thing happening to them in the next 6 months.

There would already have been a couple of hundred low time pilots looking for work anyway and if you round everything up you get a picture of about 1500 pilots actively looking for work. You might easily reach Scroggs 2500 estimate if you allow for a couple of hundred guys in Germany, France, Spain, Italy, Holland, Scandanavia, Ireland et al, who can also come to the UK for work. It is very depressing for some Irish friends of mine with low time looking for work that Ryanair keep hiring dozens of new FO's from the Netherlands...

The whole industry has tightened its belt and crews are generally working harder than ever before thus some growth is negated by greater efficiency. A lot of hiring is now finished for the summer so it'll be at least another 6 months before you see much movement. A B737 type rating is extra-ordinarly useful at the moment with FRA,GOE,EZY,GB,Astraeus and Excel ALL hiring for that particular type...

I am certain that things will really pick up in two years time - aviation is going to go the same way as it is in the US and that means 20% sustained growth for the next decade to reach US like levels. Just wait until there is an easyJet France, and Ryanair Germany and - sadly - no longer a Go-Fly Spain operating at the same levels as in the UK... Business travellers are demanding frequency in smaller aircraft - that still need 2 pilots.

Long Haul is looking good as well. The internet is making freight be shipped half way accross the world to a consumer who wants it delivered in 24hrs. Huge business markets in Latin America and China are barely yet exploited. Long haul leisure travel is the preserve of the very rich Western countries at the moment. But boy is that going to change as super jumbos and deregulation drive down prices and Westernisation provides both the money and the cultural influences to make people from India holiday in Florida or people in Brazil take a week in London.

Every airport in europe is festooned with cranes and bulldozers. A lot of pilots who entered the profession in the last boom - the 1970's package holiday - are now in their 50's.

This is a growth industry and make no mistake about it.

However. Spending the next 2 years servicing a massive debt whilst eeking out a few single engine hours for badger all money is going to be pretty damn miserable. I feel for all the people in that position I really do.

Hence my advice at the top of this post.

Good luck,

Per Ardva Ad Astra as the airforce are keen on saying. Very true.

WWW

[Snigs]

I can’t disagree with anything that has been said above, and one thing’s for sure, it will be tough getting that first flying job.

I passed my IRT on 10th September last year, and I was hopeful that I could land a job within a year, now I know that it’s going to take another two or more years before I get a sniff, and there will be younger pilots (but perhaps not better) offering a perceived greater return on an airline’s investment than I.

However, my message is don’t let it get you down. I recently spent a few days holiday in New York (my first visit), and I visited Ground Zero. I don’t mind telling you that I shed a lot of tears. There is a tacit aura of sadness and despair around what is essentially a hole in the ground, but I also sensed a real resilience in the people around me, and a hope that the future would somehow be a better place.

Remember people, over 3500 souls were lost there, and there were many acts of heroism from people both alive and sadly now dead. How can I feel depressed about my situation? I’m alive and I have a future, and if my future sees me working on a flight deck of a jet then I shall thank my lucky stars, but if it doesn’t then I’ll not be bitter.

[Cricketer]

The reason scroggs why there are so few posters out there is that as this is a wannabees forum most of us are out there waiting to pick up tips and unfortunately have not got that much advice to be able to give. Really this could do with being posted as a general letter on the 'rumours and news' so that more of the pilots with jobs can maybe read and answer. I appreciate that many of them probably don't look at this forum like myself with most of the other forums. I just do not have time to read all of them much as i would like to.

If you agree could we try posting it on another forum (with moderators approval) so we might get a bit more advice from the top!

Also maybe we could set up a permanent part of the site with FAQ's to some of the wannabees questions as the same old ones keep coming up. Might that save server space? I was thinking along the lines of Schools, jobs etc...

On this topic - is a few hours sim a month going to be worth it and can u keep current for an IRT? Do you need to spend some resl time all year or only leading up to the exam?

[climbs like a dog]

Well WWW looks like the future may be Orange for you.

Disagree with your advice about slinging your money at an FNPT2 sim. Listening to a lot of the Hirers (lower end of the market - BE, KLMuk etc) at one of the job conferences and they wanted time in the air. Stick and rudder skills. They didn't seem too impressed by questions from some wannabe's about whether or not occasional sessions in a sim would do instead.

I know that the job situation for FI's is tighter than 1998-2000 when we were both looking for our first airline jobs but there's no substitute for getting your backside in the air and instructing is a good way of building experience. Otherwise people should get flying anyway they can.

Also I would say to people forget the likes of Virgin, Emirates or similar (unless you know someone well enough to plonk your CV on the right desk). Concentrate your efforts at turboprop operators or similar. They are far more likely to look at you, presuming they're recruiting.

Also as a general point, I agree wholeheartedly with the earlier post about going to the job conferences. I got my job by talking to someone at one of them while everyone else was in learning about how to put together CV's. Keep in contact with the recruiters regularly so your name keeps coming up although don't be a pest.

Just glad I'm not having to look for work in the current climate.

Best of luck

[Wheelon-Wheeloff.]

I remember in an interview with Britannia the Fleet manager interviewing me saying they liked current hours in the air most (that's not to say I didn't get a lot of value out of the infamous cheap Trident sim as well!).

Also I was forced unwillingly to go down the instructor route (another loan for ****** all wages!). Now with a commercial job I cannot say enough about my time teaching. It absolutely changes and improves you as pilot without doubt, not to mention the satisfaction from teaching someone to fly.

I mention instructing as a lot of my colleagues with many hours are sending C.V.'s out and getting nothing but knock backs, whilst we all prepare to stay in our jobs for a while longer, thankful enough that we have one!

Best of luck all

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

climbs like a dog - yep, indeed I am wearing my flashiest orange socks as we speak.

I did not advise a FI rating as there are no jobs. Its £4,500 to get the rating and therefore a bit of a waste.

As for time in the air - if you are a 200hr pilot, a 400hr pilot or an 800hr pilot you are still a low houred pilot. Speaking as a man with 1,500 single engine piston hours I say that the last 500 were of no use to me job hunting wise.

To get that job you will HAVE to pass a sim ride. That is quite a tough proposition but one that you can do something about. Regular intensive Sim flying is the way to do that.

Is my view.

WWW

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Just got off the phone to a mate of mine with over 1,900hrs instructional hours who has been layed off for 6 weeks now. He has today taken a job with the Forestry Commission because otherwise next months rent cannot be found.

It is desperately sad - just prior to 911 he was getting interviews with household name airlines.

WWW

[Polar_stereographic]

WWW,

I feel for your mate. Hang in there. One swallow and all that.

Look at the Ryanair thread on here, and you'll see that they are indeed hiring from OAT.

I also know of individuals not able to get jobs, but then again I also hear of those that do.

No doubt it's not as easy as it used to be, but it aint imposible either.

PS

[climbs like a dog]

As I said, the market is tight for instructors but it will most likely be the 800-1000 hr pilot who'll get the interview. Once you've got the sim ride, then polish your skills in the appropriate sim. As to the last 500hrs being of no use to you in your job search, I'd say that if I'd been an approved course commercial instructor it'd count for quite a lot.

Wannabes are caught between a rock and a hard place but an FNPT2 doesn't really cut it.

Another angle would be to get a jet orientation or MCC course under your belt.

Regards

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

The market is not just tight. Its closed. All the OATS instructors are working under notice. I know instructors with 2000hrs instructional who cannot find a permanent instructing job for the summer. If you have only 250hrs and a new FI rating you stand little realistic chance of recouping the £4,500 you spent on the rating. Plus two months on the course when you could have been at work you are £5,000 down before you start.

I used to pound the drum for the FI route and it served me very very well. Its just things are different now and you have to adjust to the times.

Time in the air is valuable but 1000 SEP hours against two years salary plus £5,000 is questionable.

The sim ride is more important. Assuming you are not a prat you will pass an interview. They are either going to get a good vibe about you or they aren't.

Your initial application will be in the same pile with 1000hrs SEP or 200hrs SEP. You basically have 3 piles. Frzn ATPLs. Commercially experienced on a different type. Type rated.

The sim ride is where most Frzn ATPL's are going to fall over. 1,000hrs VFR tuition is not going to help much. ALL you need is a good scan and the ONLY way that comes/stays is by regular IR flying. An FNPT2 is in my opinion the best affordable way of keeping the scan that will get you through the sim ride.

I am assuming MCC is already completed.

OK, perhaps the last 500hrs (which were the BAE ones) did help me - I concede.

Cheers,

WWW

[Slotted-Flap]

Dont count out the inexperienced lowly hour pilot, not OATS trained pilot just yet! A very close friend of mine;) has just landed a F/O position on a shiny biz jet. His total hours? <300.
:eek: :eek:

Modular trained at schools youve never heard of, self financed over a millenium, no MCC, had a 757 course canned after Sept. 11, worked last 6 months in a ground position, came within an inch of quitting it all and today finally came up trumps:D

Sheer example of taking the hard knocks and healing them into dedication. Well done mate. An inspiration to Wannabes.

Still Flappin':p

[Miles High]

Slotted Flap,
Sounds like me... modular, <300hrs, non OATS, do have MCC though. After some time I have not even had an interview.

It's good to hear of successes like your friends, but it would be all the more inspirational if you said how it was done - even obliquely if you prefer. Any clues?
Sorry if I'm being nosey but you understand.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Slotted Flap - great news. There is always someone who lands on his feet. I can name entire courses from Jerez who are without work at this time. Biz jets are perhaps the very hardest area of aviation to enter. It is breathtaking that a <300hrs guy has done so at this time. Many pilots have been let go by the likes of NetJets who would have Bizjet experience and type ratings.

Your friend is either very lucky, or perhaps connected in some way... not the Chief Pilots son is he? :D

The jobs will come back. Was talking only this morning to an easyJet FO whose roster is rammed full due their shortage of RHS pilots... Mutterings of Britannia booking Autumn courses... etc.

WWW

[foghorn]

I certainly hope so.

WWW for what it's worth I totally agree with your recommendation... as it is almost exactly the way that I have decided to play things.

I got the IR last September and an MCC in October, unsurprisingly I've not had a sniff of a job since. Got half way thorugh an instructors rating then binned it due to lack of cash and job opportunities.

Now back in my old job, simming every two weeks in a cheap but good FNPT, flying SE whenever I can afford it (luckily I have a share in an aircraft).

It's just a case of keeping the CV going in to the airlines, enough to keep my name in the pile, but not so often as to annoy the HR department.

IR renewal comes up later in the year, by summer 2003 I hope to be either finishing my instructors rating or having a stab at the ATP scheme, or possibly paying for a JOC or AQC.

As you have said it looks like the winners in the current market will be those who can afford to play the waiting game with some degree of instrument currency.

To all those in my position - keep the faith - it will happen.
foggy.

[Slotted-Flap]

WWW: Yes the man is a cat and always lands on his feet, but he is a long way from being 'connected'.

Miles High: I think the big tip lies in last 6 months of his ground job. Front desk for a small company. Lackey boy and chief coffee maker. Networking crew from all walks of life. All for a pay packet of peanuts. Are you committed enough to do this?

The unemployed call it the 'exception to the rule', the old school call it 'character building and doing your time', the successfull Wanabe calls it 'making your own luck'.

Now if only I could work out to call it.
:eek:

Still Flappin':p

[Miles High]

Thanks SF, it is good to know it happens, albeit very occasionally.

I've got the commitment alright, but its the 'peanuts' thats the problem. As if this aviation job lark wasn't hard enough, I've got the mortgage, wife and kids to support - which means keeping my current job. No instructing. No airline ground work. (I might have considered it, but I think the mortgage extended by 40K, the time so far put in etc, is about all she can take!)

I won't be giving up though! Back to the drawng board...

[climbs like a dog]

Ah well. You can only go banging your head on the wall for so long. If the job market is so closed then I suppose it isn't a good idea then.

For when the market picks up......Instructing is a damn good way to build experience. When the job market opens up, don't pranny around in what amounts to a piddly simulator. One should remove ones bottom into the air pronto and often 'cause that's what builds ones experience.

As an aside, when it does all pick up (the airline market, etc) there a lot of unhappy bunnies who'll up sticks and go from my employer, and also theres a prospect of our fleet expanding somewhat. depending on some BALPA negitiations. Stick with it people.

And finally, www, you'll need more than just orange socks now matey! :rolleyes:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

climbs like a dog - I agree with a lot of your opinion. And BTW - its actually going to be a reverse takeover - in a stunning act of cunningness Go has cleverly infiltrated easyJet from where we will slowly change it into Go... the jingle will NEVER die!!

22 instructors laid off from OATS and the whole place under notice to make a profit by Autumn. I can see Barret Homes slavering at the prospect...

WWW

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I wouldn't worry unduly. The 22 have gone this year and its not unreasonable for the owners to seek some profit by the end of the summer.

OATS will survive I am confident.

I merely illustrated that its a hard market for flying instructors right now.

WWW