VFR in France [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

Sqwark

1st May 2002, 20:53

I would like to fly around France, but I didn't like the look of their flight maps!
It looks hard compared to the UK.
I am IMC rated (not much use in France) but don't have IR. So I presume you have to be VFR.
Can anyone give me any advice or suggest a book to read which might help me?
Thanks

Chilli Monster

1st May 2002, 21:51

What's the problem?

Yes - French VFR charts do look complex - until you look at the small print. Most of the restricted airspace is low level which you would be flying over, and then at weekends it collapses completely.

My advice would be to look at any proposed route, along with the appropriate page of Bottlang, upon which you'll find half the restrictions won't actually apply to you.

It's EASY - and a complete joy flying over there.

CM

Keef

1st May 2002, 22:07

Agree with CM. Flying in France is an absolute delight. I can't get enough of it!

There are a few "differences" that you need to know about, and you do need to check those Restricted and Prohibited areas. But you can go through most of them with no problems if you talk to the right ATC unit - identified in Bottlang etc.

Fly at Semicircular Levels plus 500 feet, and you'll have no problem. You can even fly in the airways at the 500-foot levels!

Don't bother calling Paris Information - that's not an experience I'd recommend. All the other Information units are fine, and friendly.

Sqwark

1st May 2002, 23:36

Thanks for your advice.
I'll get the maps back out and start planning!
Cheers

FlyingForFun

2nd May 2002, 09:07

How about planning a flight yourself (try to deliberately find a difficult flight - controlled airspace, restricted areas, etc.) Then run the plan by someone who's familiar with flying in France - an instructor, if possible.

Hopefully the instructor will say your plan is fine, but point out a couple of fairly minor things you may not have noticed. You should get enough of a confidence boost from the instructor saying your plan is good that you'll be happy to do the rest of the planning yourself. It's all about having the confidence - the mechanics are pretty simple.

Have fun!

FFF
-----------------

Aussie Andy

2nd May 2002, 12:07

I'll let you know when I get back on Monday evening!

We're off tomorrow - three aircraft from the same club - for the weekend. First stop Tours, then Carcassonne (both for fuel: four up in P28B we can only take fuel to the tabs) and then into Sabadell (Barcelona). We'll come back via an overnight stop in La Rochelle. Forecast looking great - getting very excited as this will be my firts experience over the channel & into France (and Spain!)...

I know what you mean about how the French maps look, but as the others have said it works out easier than it at first appears. Get a copy of the "Guide VFR" - its in French with some (kind-of) English as well, so decipherable... the main thing is it includes booklets which give details of each of the D- P- and R- areas, including the hours of operation, who to call on the radio, etc. Again, looks like many many of these can be either overflow, or you can easily get a crossing service.

So, I'll let you know how it works out in practice!!!

Andy :D

Sqwark

2nd May 2002, 12:41

Have a good flight!
I look forward to hearing from you.
Cheers

skua

2nd May 2002, 15:09

Andy
Have a good flight, I am sure it will be a blast. To give you something to aim for next year, my local club in France is doing a club trip next month to Dakar !

Regards

Skua

CBG

2nd May 2002, 17:58

Yep! Flying in France is easy and fun (and b****y cheap too).

Don't worry if sometimes you can't raise ATC - your radio is probably OK - it's just that they've probbly gone out for lunch (happened to me many times. One time the guy was so hungry in Royan that as I was turning downwind to land he told me I'd be on my own for the landing! could not wait for me that one).

Skua - given your expertise in long trips we really could do with having you on the Dakar adventure. You sure you don't wanna come?

To all G reg pilots: do stop by at LFPD whenever you can. No beer in the club but a nice restaurant walking distance from your plane.
No landing or parking fees either - but that goes without saying.

A and C

2nd May 2002, 22:41

VFR in france easy as a number of posts above have pointed out the biggest problem I have with it is finding a long enough ruler to draw a line from A to B over three half mil charts.

skua

3rd May 2002, 07:07

Now CBG, you know that I would want to, but you also know that French banks in the UK are a lot less generous with holidays than French banks in France! (Not to mention British wives !):)

jayemm

3rd May 2002, 12:47

I'm also planning to fly in France this weekend.

Trouble is, the transponder is u/s. Are there any rules about having to have an operational transponder for VFR flight in France?

Aussie Andy - I envy you for your trip. Carcassonne and La Rochelle are both great places to visit. Have a good one.

jayemm

3rd May 2002, 13:02

skydriller

4th May 2002, 11:03

jeyemm

Yes, You can fly VFR in france without a transponder...

BUT...(there is always a but...) You MUST have an operating transponder in order to be able to fly in Controlled airspace in france. A quick look at a chart means this will definately limit you in where you can go and make your flight planning alot harder

Regards, SD

Zeitgebers

6th May 2002, 11:35

VFR in France is great.
Transair do a handy VFR guide to flying in France. Its got some good info such as joining procedures ( sometimes different )
I found it helps to have a mode c transponder - you call, for example, Bordeaux, they give you a sqwawk, you transit their airspace and they don't want to talk to you again until you leave.
Easy. There is more chit-chat involved without mode c as they can't 'see' what you are up to.
Also it helps to learn a few French phrases for the cicuit. Some smaller airfields insist on French. Its not difficult. e.g.
Take-off - Decollage
Climb - monter
Downwind - vent arriere ( wind behind )
Finals - Finale
Land - atterisage
Overhead - Verticale , au dessus
Also learn numbers 1 - 50
Piste dix neuf - runway 19
Herbe - grass
Landings are dirt cheap too. I love it. :cool:

GRP

6th May 2002, 19:36

Slightly off the topic but same question re: Belgium. I've been trying to work out a route from the UK to Frankfurt. There seems to be a very large helicopter training area that seems to cover almost the entire Ardennes area of Belgium. All routes that avoid it seem to be inordinately long!

Anybody got any experience of this area? Can you transit this area and of so, who would you be talking to to do so??

Aussie Andy

7th May 2002, 07:15

Just got back from first trip (3 aircraft / 10 people!) across France via Tours & Carcassonne, then to Sabadell (Barcelona), then back via Pamiers (near Toulouse), Biarritz, La Rochelle, Laval, Dinan & Dinard - all of it absolutely FANTASTIC!

No time to give details now (must get to the office to make some money to pay for all this!), but what an adventure it was :) Details to follow later as soon as I have time...

But for now, I would say: GO TO FRANCE!! Its gotta be one of the best flying environments around - excellent ATC, airports, and - of course - restaurants :cool:

A and C

7th May 2002, 07:55

GRP.........I went to eggelbach last year the route was LAM KOK GSY NTM KRI RID at FL090 VFR.

The brussels controler would except us as FL050 but it worked best for them at FL090 and the tailwind was better for us.

My advice to you would be to climb as high as you can wile staying clear of the worthing CTA and then contact Brussels west sector on 131.10 or 125.77 and be prepaired to take a level between FL50 and FL 090.

These controlers are working all the lower level IFR trafic to the west of brussels so are quite busy , you must be able to route to eny VOR ,NDB or Intersection in the area so study the likly options well before you set out.

I have found the Brussels controlers very accomodating in the past but remember that you are opperating in what is primerily IFR airspace so keep your whits about you.

DFC

7th May 2002, 11:57

GRP,

HTA 1 to 7 have a max height of 250ft above surface.
HTA 8 has a max height of 500ft above surface.
HTA 9 can be penetrated in VMC with a min crossing height of 1000ft above the surface
HTA 10 and 11 operate after sunset.

Thus there should be no problems for a VFR flight through or over any of the helicopter training areas.

If you have a query about a different area then please give the area number.

Regards,

DFC

zero-lash valve lifter

7th May 2002, 15:08

Anyone out there been to Bergerac since I am planning to go there next month? Stopping in Tour for fuel and lunch then onward. Any advice welcome.

2Donkeys

7th May 2002, 15:30

A and C,

Either your memory is playing tricks on you, or you were accepted on an IFR clearance and there was a misunderstanding. Those levels are IFR cruise levels in Belgium and Germany (semi+500 are VFR levels). Whilst it is not unusual to be cleared VFR on that kind of routing at FL55, such a direct transit of the Brussels area will not normally be given to VFR traffic.

Accepting your FL90 clearance without an instrument rating could land you in hot water in the unlikely event of an accident, airmiss or other mishap.

Crowe

7th May 2002, 18:29

Sqwark

I thoroughly endorse all the above - recently did my first channel crossing, no problems at all. Everyone at the airports I visited was great, and the general attitude seems much more like the US than UK - they want you to fly!

Anyway, I fly out of Leeds also, so if you want another pilot along for a trip (I have PPL/IMC/night, plus I speak French), drop me a line.

Cheers

bookworm

7th May 2002, 20:15

2Donks

I beg to differ. It's not up to the pilot to challenge the level that ATC allocates in controlled airspace, in Belgium or anywhere else. If the clearance was through the Brussels CTA at FL90 then the pilot should accept it. I'm not surprised they want all flights at IFR levels -- it's class B so they have to separate them anyway.

2Donkeys

7th May 2002, 22:12

Bookworm, in due deference to your knowledge of the subject, my point was less one of a point of law, a more one of pure practicality.

In Belgium, as in most of the rest of Europe, if you are told by a controller to put yourself at a semicircular level, it is because you are being offered an IFR clearance. It should be regarded with caution, and queried if such a clearance would place you in violation of your licence. You might recall that in Belgium, as in France, lower airways structures are available to the VFR pilot (on request in Belgium) and the semi+500 spacing is the primary basis for separation.

A and C

8th May 2002, 07:26

2 donkeys in the case above I was on a VFR flight plan so the clearance was VFR and the level was that given by ATC as this was the best level for them , If I had wanted to go IFR i would have filed for IFR.

2Donkeys

8th May 2002, 07:54

The advice remains. It is highly unusual for VFR aircraft to be placed on an IFR flight level in Europe in general, and in Belgium quite specifically.

Your instance may well be the exception, but for people reading this forum in general, you should regard an invitation in Europe to climb to a semicircular flightlevel whilst VFR with an appropriate degree of caution. It never hurts to query a clearance.

khorne

8th May 2002, 09:25

Legally you should fly only VFR in FRance, however ...

France is certainly the easiest place to fly. There seems to be lots of airspace but much of it you are not even obliged to be in radio contact (although it doesn't hurt). Even in the Class D airspace the controllers don't actually give permission like in the UK but rather just stay in radio contact and let you go about your business.

It doesn't matter if you are on top of cloud all the way to your destination provided you have the weather info and it is reasonable to descend through it. For example you can fly over solid overcast all the way to the South of France if they have clear skies at their end. Take plates just in case! Flying on top in VFR is normal in France so they all expect this. Controllers enroute will give you destination weather.

You need to fly at VFR crusing levels (semicircular rules + 500 ft) as soon as you are in French airspace.

If you want a copilot for a first trip I am more than willing as I am grounded until the end of June while my Mooney is put on the N Register.

Radar

8th May 2002, 12:50

Just to come back on 2Donkeys last post, it never hurts to confirm any ATC clearance. However, the use of IFR cruising levels by Brussels ACC in handlling VFR traffic is not at all rare. It generally boils down to what works best for them at the time. Last year, having filed FL65 VFR was cleared FL60 on a re-route via BUB, descended to 5000 ft on a radar heading 255 to transit the Brussels area. In short, it's whatever makes life easier for the controller on the day.

FNG

8th May 2002, 20:17

A UK PPL who does not hold an instrument rating may NOT fly VFR on top in France, or anywhere else outside the UK. He/she is bound by the limitations of the licence, whatever the local rules may be. The licence limitations prohibit flight out of sight of the surface, so flight above unbroken cloud is illegal. With an IMC rating, a PPL can fly VFR on top in UK airspace. Remember that the limitations of the PPL are more stringent than those of the Visual Flight Rules.

khorne

8th May 2002, 20:59

The previous post states, quite correctly, that it is illegal for a PPL to fly on top in France. Legal is one thing and common sense is another.

If you have an IMC rating you can fly on top in the UK.

If you are french you can fly on top in France with a PPL.

The French controllers are used to their people flying not only on top but also in the airways VFR.

All this adds up to it making perfect sense for a UK PPL IMC to fly on top. In any case who knows whether the cloud is broken or overcast except you.

Aussie Andy

9th May 2002, 02:22

zero-lash valve lifter: Tours is a great chioce to stop for fuel and lunch: we were there last Friday en ruote to Barcelona. The terminal was full of people waiting for Buzz flight back to the UK, and there's a salad bar with good quality food.

Some advice on approaching Tours, or any other of the airfields with published VFR routes in their airspace (e.g. La Rochelle, and others): study the plate and be prepared to be routed to any of the points on it at short notice! When we arrived at Tours, we were directed in to point NOVEMBER and then expected right base to final for the southerly runway... but suddently we were told to "remain at 1100 QNH" (about 700 or so ASFC) and route to point NOVEMBER ECHO. This initially confused us - why are they taking us out here? Shortly after it was clear: "... beware 3 alpha jets shortly to pass overhead 200' above...!" Then we were routed to point ECHO and then onto a left base leg and finally in. Point being, if we hadn't been familiar with the VFR plate first, it might have been more difficult --- AND THERE ARE FAST JETS YOU DON'T WANT TO HIT!

But don't let me put you off: Tours was a great place to stop!

Andy

A and C

10th May 2002, 00:52

2 donkeys how much do I have to do to get is right ?

I ask for a clearance , ATC issue one , and I read it back.

I dont think that it needs any more than that if they have got it wrong then the authoritys can pull the tapes and see that I was issued a VFR clearance , if ATC got is wrong (and i dont think that they did) then thats not my problem.

2Donkeys

10th May 2002, 06:38

Probably straying off the main theme of this thread but to answer your question...as any qualified ATCO will tell you, as a general proposition, it is the pilot's responsibility to query any clearance over which there might be any doubt, and the pilot's responsibility to refuse an inappropriate clearance.

For example, if the non-IR pilot of a VFR flight is offered a climb into the London TMA (which does happen from time to time), it is the pilot's responsibility to decline the clearance, not the controller's to know which licences/ratings the pilot may or may not have.

Another example, if the pilot of a Single-Engined aircraft is offered a clearance that would compromise their ability to alight clear, it the pilot's responsibility to decline the clearance.

This is all a pretty fundamental part of the contract between Pilot and ATCO although none of this necessarily has any bearing on your Brussels experience. I would nevertheless repeat my advice -

If Flying on a VFR flightplan in Europe, and offered a climb to a level normally employed for IFR flights only, it is good practice to query the clearance. Nobody ever got killed for querying a clearance.

Do you disagree?

A and C

10th May 2002, 08:38

2 donkeys I dont have a problem with questioning an ATC clearance and have refused direct tracks across the east of london as in a SE aircraft I would not be able to alight clear and in the other example that you give VFR flight in class A airspace is only allowed in exceptional cases.

However in the brussels case a VFR clearance is allowed in a busy "IFR enviroment" and having my aircraft at an odd 500kt level may well create more problems for ATC than it would solve when much of the trafic will have TCAS and with 500kt verticly between aircraft it is likley that the TCAS will set off at least a TA if not an RA in some of the TCAS equiped passing trafic.

I am not an air trafficer but thats how i read the brussels situation , I would be interested to read your comments on this.

bookworm

10th May 2002, 10:12

2Donks

I can't argue with the advice to question any suspicious clearance, but I suggest that controllers would usually prefer VFR traffic in class B and C airspace to be at "IFR levels" (i.e. round thousands). They have to separate the VFR from all IFR traffic anyway, so they might as well put it in the same level scheme or it becomes twice as hard.

I'd conjecture that neither of us have been VFR through the Brussels TMA at that sort of level for a long time, because I'm too light and you're too sensible. :) I'm prepared to be corrected...