Promised changes have never happened. Airspace Reform??

[LeadSled]

All,

Real airspace management reform is as about as effective as CASA regulatory reform.


From today's Australian. As it happens, I was going through some old bookshelves in the last day or so, and came across a copy of Dick's book, "!2 Months In The Aviation Hall of Doom", it is amazing how little has changed, and how we suffer restrictions here, unknown in the rest of the civilised aviation world.


We continue to suffer all sorts of inefficiencies, that not only do not makes things "safer", ie; reduce risk, but arguably increase risk.



Tootle pip!!





Williamtown delays a danger, says Dick Smith


by: Steve Creedy
From: The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au)
July 12, 2013 12:00AM

AVIATOR Dick Smith has warned that "reckless and dangerous" outdated military air-traffic control procedures near RAAF Williamtown are putting small aircraft at risk.
Mr Smith is upset that visual flight rules aircraft travelling along the NSW coastal lane are being held near RAAF Williamtown to allow small airliners to take off from the shared airport.
"It is an incredibly important safety issue and I am amazed no one has been killed," the former Civil Aviation Safety Authority chairman said this week. "It will happen soon, as nowhere in the world do air-traffic controllers hold single-engine aircraft orbiting and intermingling over an ocean or over a crowded beach."
Mr Smith has written to the chief of the Air Force, Air Marshall Geoff Brown, to express his fears about the safety issues and the fact that he is regularly held at Nobbys Beach or Anna Bay for up to nine minutes.
He cites one occasion where he was held for seven minutes at Nobbys while interweaving with four hang gliders flying at 500ft, and other times where he had been held with other fixed-wing aircraft at Nobbys, all orbiting at 500ft. "Just how there has not been a mid-air collision is amazing," he said.
Mr Smith said he had been lobbying on this issue for three decades and his investigations had shown some of the airspace procedures and design forced on military air-traffic controllers dated back to the 1930s.
He had asked they be updated to be more comparable with procedures "used in modern aviation countries".
In a second letter prompted by another holding incident while enroute from Port Macquarie to Bankstown, Mr Smith said he had been held at Anna Bay in his Cessna Caravan with another single-engine aircraft because of a plane departing Williamtown.
"This is amazing,' he said. "Anna Bay is 12 miles away from the aerodrome and not in line with the runway and there is simply no aircraft known to humankind that would not be able to reach 500ft by the coast after it departed the Williamtown runway.
"Air Marshal Brown, this is incredibly serious. I simply don't know how the Air Force would ever be able to fight a war when the rules and regulations your people have to comply with are so out of date and so reckless and dangerous."
The aviator offered to cover the cost of an RAAF expert travelling overseas to examine how modern and safe air traffic control airspace and procedures work.

Defence had not responded to Mr Smith's claims by deadline.

[Dick Smith]

All they have to do is bring the Control Zone down to a reasonable size and give the tower the airspace to the boundary. If this can happen at Sydney Kingsford Smith and at Canberra no reason it can't happen at Williamtown. How long before a mid air?

[ftrplt]

Dick, often your concerns have some merit deserving consideration.

But you then invariably shoot your credibility in the foot with stupid comments along the lines of I simply don't know how the Air Force would ever be able to fight a war when the rules and regulations your people have to comply with are so out of date and so reckless and dangerous

[RatsoreA]

As a serving member, Dick is pretty much spot on with that comment.

[Howabout]

RatsoreA,

Interesting as regards your assertion about being a 'serving member.' Would that be a serving member that belongs to the Catering Corps? Or are you ATC, aircrew, or a plane-spotter?

Do you actually have a background that allows informed comment?

Leddy is a nice bloke, but Dick and Led are a double act that will continually resurrect these hoary old chestnuts. Two old guys that just can't let it go. Some wisdom, but a lot of BS that appeals to the uninformed.

Spot on ftrplt.

[RatsoreA]

I'm not going to give you my résumé, but yes, I know a plenty enough to offer informed comment. Both from a military and civilian point of view. I have no allegiance to either the OP or Dick, I just happen to agree with them.

And yes, Username here, you're spot on, the caterers know just as well as any other specialist in how to operate in the Defence environment.

When the level of beuracracy required to run a simple gym PT session is 5 times more labour intensive than the actual 40 mins spent working out, something's not right...

[Howabout]

Oh, brilliant,

We now equate airspace management to running a gym. That's an absolutely devastating retort. Clearly you're qualified to comment.

Username, your logic defies belief and you wouldn't have a clue.

I sincerely hope that Defence isn't employing people these days with such shabby reasoning. If so, God help us all.

Please riddle me how:

The fact that you are arguing against Dick's comment tells me you have never spent a minute in defence...

Please, please tell me how you put 2+2 together and got 5. I'd really appreciate it.

[Howabout]

Didn't think so.

Cricket's on.

Night Dick!

[RatsoreA]

Howabout,

A student of argumentum ad absurdum, are you?

At no point did I compare airspace management to running a gym.

Your reply clearly indicates that you have absolutely no clue about operating in a Defence environment, and as such, I feel no need to flatter you by arguing with you about something you are clearly not qualified to speak about.

[Lookleft]

The interesting thing is that the SID off rwy 12 has a turn at 600' which turns an aircraft well away from Stockton Beach. The problem is ATC insist on sending us off on visual departures which company procedures require a turn no earlier than 1000' so putting us closer to the beach and a possible conflict with VFR traffic.

[Ultralights]

i have to agree with RatsoreA and Dick Smith with his comment...spot on. i know first hand just how behind their procedures and processes are.

though only holding for 7 to 9 minutes... a luxury, i have been held at the same locations for 15 minutes sometimes. waiting for something to arrive on 12 from 20 miles out.

[Jabawocky]

I do not always agree with Dick either, he actually tried to slay my credibility on national radio once, funny as heck, but I do agree. Willy and its airspace is a mess. It is a mess for VFR's IFR's and probably the Air Force as well.

One of my mates operates the airspace around it .....and boy :eek: do some of those stories make your eyes water.

RatsoreA and co may be some of the few on the inside that understand.

Where is DBTW with an expert opinion? He should know not only how it is but how it should be.

The secret to knowing when something is wrong, is to know what it should look like when it is right!

[ftrplt]

I agree that lighties should be able to run coastal at willy VFR at 500ft with no clearance - and have for years.

My comment is about the childish and nonsensical stretch statements that Dick invariably makes in trying to bolster his argument - in this case linking the ability of the RAAF to manage (or not) an operational scenario to the existence of a rule(s) that he doesn't like.

[Super Cecil]

As they say in aviation the more things change the more they stay the same, The Dick bashing goes on and on.

[Kharon]

When I was very (very) young; I actually believed that a promise made, was a promise to be kept. But; I was young then; since then; like Lincoln, I have learned that it is easier to be silent and be thought a fool than speak and confirm the notion. To much talk about the campfire boys; no where near enough action.

"When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways."
Far too many 'wanabees' getting roughed up by the GWM. Dick – step up, or shut up; two choices, not too many options.

[RatsoreA]

My comment is about the childish and nonsensical stretch statements that Dick invariably makes in trying to bolster his argument - in this case linking the ability of the RAAF to manage (or not) an operational scenario to the existence of a rule(s) that he doesn't like.

That's where I disagree, I didn't think it was childish, and the rules he doesn't like, are also not liked by many other people. I also feels that he asks a legitimate question, by asking how can they be expected to perform their jobs effectively in the environment and rule structure they operate in?

Aviation should move with the times, but it seems to be mired in old world thinking. Progress seems to move (in the lower end/GA and regulation) with all the speed of a herd of turtles stampeding through cold honey.

[Like This - Do That]

Dick's right. Y'all ever been to a RAAF dining in night? Ever been confronted with the utter chaos of 'banter'? Outdated and an utter outrage in 2013. It will get someone killed! KILLED I TELLS YA!

I simply don't know how the Air Force would ever be able to fight a war when the rules and regulations your people have to comply with are so out of date and so reckless and dangerous

Rules and regs, rules and regs. Most of the rules and regs are quite sensible and if anything OVERLY cautious. But a comparison akin to a bloke in a Cherokee or Robinson flying VFR on a coastal run past Willy and a JTAC calling fast air in on Terry Taliban in Oruzgan just isn't called for.

If Willy procedures aren't right, let's consider that without having petty snipes at the RAAF. Petty snipes at the RAAF is the Army's job, not Mr. Smith's :}

[Ultralights]

let's consider that without having petty snipes at the RAAF. Petty snipes at the RAAF is the Army's job,

dont worry, the RAAF are as bad as Army aviation are as bad as RAN are as bad as RAAF. all three sing from the same old publications..


i unfortunately have to work with all 3.

[004wercras]

Perhaps Hoody can put Willy (William town that is) at the top of his agenda? After all he does know how to get **** fixed, no doubt about that, question is does he have the authority and enough of the folding stuff to do it?

[Howabout]

Lunch just gone in the cricket.

Like This, I can only assume you've just come from one of those dining-in nights and that the port was flowing.

I suggest you read your post in the morning after a few orange juices and a good grease-fix to sober up in the mess. Cringe-worthy is probably too generous.

This is about some serious allegations that the RAAF threatens aviation safety. It's a proposition constantly put without any concrete argument.

Air Force does nothing more than adhere to the required separation standards mandated in the civil/military books.

If anyone can come up with a (legal) civil standard as regards the original complaint then please tell me. I am all ears.

Poms 5/176.

[Dick Smith]

Howabout, there is nothing in the regs that mandates that a control zone should go out to 12 miles at ground level or that the approach controller must be responsible for that airspace.

At one time the Coffs airspace went to 19 miles at ground level It's now 7 miles

The concrete argument is that it is clear that the leadership is not game to make changes.

Over the years a small number of RAAF personel, some in senior positions, have told me that the changes would be made.

I bet once there is a mid air that the changes will then be made.. Why not do them now before lives are lost?

If the tower controlled the airspace to the coast it's clear that the holding would rarely have to take place. Canberra Tower controls the airspace to 9nm. If Civilian Controllers can somehow cope with this arduous task- why can't the Military Controllers?

It just needs proper leadership. It is embarrassing for Australia that this is lacking in the RAAF

[Howabout]

Dick,

One thing I won't do with you is stoop to invective. Regardless of my opinion on matters airspace, your banter in support of your beliefs has always demonstrated a degree of good humour. I am sure that you find me frustrating (comparison with your 14 year-old daughter some time back during NAS), just like I find you so. You can be bloody infuriating, but you are entitled to your opinion, as am I.

Howabout, there is nothing in the regs that mandates that a control zone should go out to 12 miles at ground level or that the approach controller must be responsible for that airspace.

Dick, there is nothing in the regs that stipulates that a CTR can't go out to 12 miles! Have a look at the chart Mate, and look at the proximity of the airfield to the Salt Ash range. The approach controller is dealing with high-speed jets inbound and outbound. He/she is far better equipped with radar to deal with separation. Wasn't there an argument way back that you can't control terminal Class C without radar during NAS? Who promoted that argument...uh doh! Can't have it both ways Mate!

I bet once there is a mid air that the changes will then be made.. Why not do them now before lives are lost?


Dick, that's a major problem with your hypotheses When you start to lose traction you resort to the unsubstantiated emotive. I remind you of your pronouncement during the NAS 2B rollback. Didn't you say in the press that you'd advised your family not to fly in Class C airspace that had been re-classified from non-radar E because it was 'dangerous?' Please remind me how many poor innocents have been killed since.

As I said, Dick, nothing personal.

BTW, the beetroot is sensational. But do you think I could find any in Coles today? Mrs Howabout was distinctly unimpressed with the alternative I brought home for the burgers.

Aust 0/68!

[Old Akro]

As I said, Dick, nothing personal.

Doesn't look like it to me.

If you have an argument, make it. There is no place in rational debate for comparing your protagonist to your 14 YO daughter.

[Dick Smith]

Howabout

You will clearly come up with every reason you can to justify the status quo.

Aero pelican operated for over 30 years with 100's of thousands of airline passenger movements with a strip even closer to the coast. VFR Aircraft did not hold 12 miles out when an airline aircraft was in or outbound.

What is your objection to giving the tower at Williamtown a bit more airspace? Or requiring departing aircraft to be no lower than 1000' when crossing the coast?

Modern procedures work in other countries- why not here?

No beetroot available because the Cowra Cannery went broke after Aldi started selling beetroot at half price but decent Aussie wages still had to be paid by the farmers. Now no Australian owned cannery's left . Coles are now about to delete our OzeSauce - as Heinze is being rewarded by Aussie consumers for sacking their workers , dumping the farmers and moving off shore. I despair!

And, by the way I said no such thing about Class C.

[601]

The approach controller is dealing with high-speed jets inbound

The controller could tell them to slow down. After all that is what he/she is there for - controlling.

Reminds me of the Canberras operating into and out of Baik in the 70s. Had to do a high speed run down the runway before pitching for a circuit and landing. Don't they teach RAAF pilots how to do a straight in approach.

I am sure the RAAF could consign high speed approaches to the remote bases that we have built for them in Northern Australia.

[no_one]

Here's how it's done at some places overseas for example. Class C at the surface extends to a radius of 5 miles and then out to 10 miles the floor is 1200 feet. The top of the class C is 4000 feet. A VFR flight can go over the top or low outside 5 miles without talking to ATC but does need a transponder. All this at a place the has over 100k aircraft movements (about 25% military and about 20% rpt) and moves over 2.5M passengers a year.


http://i39.tinypic.com/2epkps8.jpg

[Capn Bloggs]

And, by the way I said no such thing about Class C. Was I dreaming when I thought you got John Anderson to issue a directive to ASA to install a radar at Alice because it was Class C?

[OZBUSDRIVER]

There is nothing new with this argument. Is this just the beginning of a political joust to coincide with the 36 point CASA report into ASA...having a go at the ex-mil chair of ASA? Chinese puzzle...watching very carefully.

[Creampuff]

And there’s an election coming up in Australia.

It will be interesting to see what the parties promise Dick to keep him quiet and on side during the campaign.

I can feel another ‘Task Force’ coming on….

[004wercras]

Sorry Dick, I didn't like your beetroot, however your version of vegemite wasn't bad at all! I also enjoy your risqué 'dick' commercials, rather humorous if I may concede. Although not as amusing as say John McComick at an AMROBA meeting, but nonetheless amusing!

[Dick Smith]

No one. What is also important is that in the USA the tower controls the airspace to the 5 mile boundary. They then use sensible procedures in this airspace.

One day the RAAF will update to these more modern procedures- but don't hold your breath!

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Creamie, methinks Senator Nick has cut Dick out of a gig.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Was I dreamin' when I got the 'BIG Redundo'..??

NOPE!!
Still enjoyin' it... Oi is......Ta Dick......

:ok::ok:

[aroa]

What task force was that. ?

Big Screaming Skull ballyhoo in March 2011. a "task force".to report back in 2/TWO years on all those vital changes ...ref GA etc

Heard anything on that one Creamie ??...or has it been consigned, as with so many other promised changes, to the dustbin of history.

"Standby one...Decision pending" said the CAsA person to the skeleton waiting by the door.

[Creampuff]

Task Forces are the modern day version of Yes Minister’s appointment of a “Supremo”.

I posted this on 25 May 2007 – yes, 6 years ago - in the drifting along forever thread:Senator O’BRIEN—What will the reporting relationship be between the task force and CASA?

Mr Mrdak—Mr Byron is a member of the task force. The task force will report to the minister. Mr Byron, as a member of the task force, will have a part to play in its advice.

Senator O’BRIEN—Has the task force met yet?

Mr Mrdak—Yes, it has.

Mr Ford—The task force has had one meeting. It was on 14 May.

Senator O’BRIEN—A week ago. Does it have terms of reference?

Mr Mrdak—Yes, it does.

Senator O’BRIEN—Are they public?

Mr Mrdak—They are not. I can take that on notice. The minister has written to the chair of the task force setting out his expectations and the area he wishes to have the task force cover. I will take that on notice to see if that can be made available to the committee.

Senator O’BRIEN—Thank you for that. Do you know if it has yet established a work program, who it will consult and when it will report?

Mr Mrdak—The initial meeting of the committee last week did establish a meeting schedule and initial areas of focus for its work—initially looking at parts of the civil aviation regulations which are under development, particularly, and I will check this with Mr Ford, part 91.

Mr Ford—Yes, it is part 91. The task force has decided to focus initially on some high priority areas of the regulatory framework. Part 91 is one of those.

Senator O’BRIEN—Remind me what is in part 91.

Mr Mrdak—It principally covers general flying rules and procedures.

Senator O’BRIEN—What is the term of the appointments of the members of the task force?

Mr Mrdak—They have been asked to provide a report to the minister by December this year.

Senator O’BRIEN—Are sitting fees paid to members of the task force?

Mr Mrdak—Terms and conditions are yet to be settled. It is yet to be finalised what remuneration will be made available to the task force. We are currently working through that.

Senator O’BRIEN—But some will?

Mr Mrdak—We are looking at options to do that, yes. It is envisaged that there will be some remuneration for their time involved or at least a meeting of their costs.

Senator O’BRIEN—Is there a standard fee for the chair of such a task force? Mr Mrdak—There are provisions through the Remuneration Tribunal for such special purpose tasks, and we are currently doing some work with the rem tribunal to ascertain what is the most appropriate remuneration for the task force chair and the members.

Senator O’BRIEN—Will you take it on notice to supply the committee with those details when they are established, or do I have to do it through another process?

Mr Mrdak—I would be happy to advise the committee when those arrangements are finalised and established.Worked a treat on Dick.

Of course, it didn’t actually produce anything.