Promised changes have never happened. Airspace Reform??
Thread Starter
Promised changes have never happened. Airspace Reform??
All,
Real airspace management reform is as about as effective as CASA regulatory reform.
From today's Australian. As it happens, I was going through some old bookshelves in the last day or so, and came across a copy of Dick's book, "!2 Months In The Aviation Hall of Doom", it is amazing how little has changed, and how we suffer restrictions here, unknown in the rest of the civilised aviation world.
We continue to suffer all sorts of inefficiencies, that not only do not makes things "safer", ie; reduce risk, but arguably increase risk.
Tootle pip!!
Williamtown delays a danger, says Dick Smith
Mr Smith is upset that visual flight rules aircraft travelling along the NSW coastal lane are being held near RAAF Williamtown to allow small airliners to take off from the shared airport.
"It is an incredibly important safety issue and I am amazed no one has been killed," the former Civil Aviation Safety Authority chairman said this week. "It will happen soon, as nowhere in the world do air-traffic controllers hold single-engine aircraft orbiting and intermingling over an ocean or over a crowded beach."
Mr Smith has written to the chief of the Air Force, Air Marshall Geoff Brown, to express his fears about the safety issues and the fact that he is regularly held at Nobbys Beach or Anna Bay for up to nine minutes.
He cites one occasion where he was held for seven minutes at Nobbys while interweaving with four hang gliders flying at 500ft, and other times where he had been held with other fixed-wing aircraft at Nobbys, all orbiting at 500ft. "Just how there has not been a mid-air collision is amazing," he said.
Mr Smith said he had been lobbying on this issue for three decades and his investigations had shown some of the airspace procedures and design forced on military air-traffic controllers dated back to the 1930s.
He had asked they be updated to be more comparable with procedures "used in modern aviation countries".
In a second letter prompted by another holding incident while enroute from Port Macquarie to Bankstown, Mr Smith said he had been held at Anna Bay in his Cessna Caravan with another single-engine aircraft because of a plane departing Williamtown.
"This is amazing,' he said. "Anna Bay is 12 miles away from the aerodrome and not in line with the runway and there is simply no aircraft known to humankind that would not be able to reach 500ft by the coast after it departed the Williamtown runway.
"Air Marshal Brown, this is incredibly serious. I simply don't know how the Air Force would ever be able to fight a war when the rules and regulations your people have to comply with are so out of date and so reckless and dangerous."
The aviator offered to cover the cost of an RAAF expert travelling overseas to examine how modern and safe air traffic control airspace and procedures work.
Defence had not responded to Mr Smith's claims by deadline.
Real airspace management reform is as about as effective as CASA regulatory reform.
From today's Australian. As it happens, I was going through some old bookshelves in the last day or so, and came across a copy of Dick's book, "!2 Months In The Aviation Hall of Doom", it is amazing how little has changed, and how we suffer restrictions here, unknown in the rest of the civilised aviation world.
We continue to suffer all sorts of inefficiencies, that not only do not makes things "safer", ie; reduce risk, but arguably increase risk.
Tootle pip!!
Williamtown delays a danger, says Dick Smith
- by: Steve Creedy
- From: The Australian
- July 12, 2013 12:00AM
Mr Smith is upset that visual flight rules aircraft travelling along the NSW coastal lane are being held near RAAF Williamtown to allow small airliners to take off from the shared airport.
"It is an incredibly important safety issue and I am amazed no one has been killed," the former Civil Aviation Safety Authority chairman said this week. "It will happen soon, as nowhere in the world do air-traffic controllers hold single-engine aircraft orbiting and intermingling over an ocean or over a crowded beach."
Mr Smith has written to the chief of the Air Force, Air Marshall Geoff Brown, to express his fears about the safety issues and the fact that he is regularly held at Nobbys Beach or Anna Bay for up to nine minutes.
He cites one occasion where he was held for seven minutes at Nobbys while interweaving with four hang gliders flying at 500ft, and other times where he had been held with other fixed-wing aircraft at Nobbys, all orbiting at 500ft. "Just how there has not been a mid-air collision is amazing," he said.
Mr Smith said he had been lobbying on this issue for three decades and his investigations had shown some of the airspace procedures and design forced on military air-traffic controllers dated back to the 1930s.
He had asked they be updated to be more comparable with procedures "used in modern aviation countries".
In a second letter prompted by another holding incident while enroute from Port Macquarie to Bankstown, Mr Smith said he had been held at Anna Bay in his Cessna Caravan with another single-engine aircraft because of a plane departing Williamtown.
"This is amazing,' he said. "Anna Bay is 12 miles away from the aerodrome and not in line with the runway and there is simply no aircraft known to humankind that would not be able to reach 500ft by the coast after it departed the Williamtown runway.
"Air Marshal Brown, this is incredibly serious. I simply don't know how the Air Force would ever be able to fight a war when the rules and regulations your people have to comply with are so out of date and so reckless and dangerous."
The aviator offered to cover the cost of an RAAF expert travelling overseas to examine how modern and safe air traffic control airspace and procedures work.
Defence had not responded to Mr Smith's claims by deadline.
All they have to do is bring the Control Zone down to a reasonable size and give the tower the airspace to the boundary. If this can happen at Sydney Kingsford Smith and at Canberra no reason it can't happen at Williamtown. How long before a mid air?
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Dick, often your concerns have some merit deserving consideration.
But you then invariably shoot your credibility in the foot with stupid comments along the lines of
But you then invariably shoot your credibility in the foot with stupid comments along the lines of
I simply don't know how the Air Force would ever be able to fight a war when the rules and regulations your people have to comply with are so out of date and so reckless and dangerous
Last edited by ftrplt; 12th Jul 2013 at 07:52.
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RatsoreA,
Interesting as regards your assertion about being a 'serving member.' Would that be a serving member that belongs to the Catering Corps? Or are you ATC, aircrew, or a plane-spotter?
Do you actually have a background that allows informed comment?
Leddy is a nice bloke, but Dick and Led are a double act that will continually resurrect these hoary old chestnuts. Two old guys that just can't let it go. Some wisdom, but a lot of BS that appeals to the uninformed.
Spot on ftrplt.
Interesting as regards your assertion about being a 'serving member.' Would that be a serving member that belongs to the Catering Corps? Or are you ATC, aircrew, or a plane-spotter?
Do you actually have a background that allows informed comment?
Leddy is a nice bloke, but Dick and Led are a double act that will continually resurrect these hoary old chestnuts. Two old guys that just can't let it go. Some wisdom, but a lot of BS that appeals to the uninformed.
Spot on ftrplt.
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Not starting a p@$$ing contest...
I'm not going to give you my résumé, but yes, I know a plenty enough to offer informed comment. Both from a military and civilian point of view. I have no allegiance to either the OP or Dick, I just happen to agree with them.
And yes, Username here, you're spot on, the caterers know just as well as any other specialist in how to operate in the Defence environment.
When the level of beuracracy required to run a simple gym PT session is 5 times more labour intensive than the actual 40 mins spent working out, something's not right...
And yes, Username here, you're spot on, the caterers know just as well as any other specialist in how to operate in the Defence environment.
When the level of beuracracy required to run a simple gym PT session is 5 times more labour intensive than the actual 40 mins spent working out, something's not right...
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Oh, brilliant,
We now equate airspace management to running a gym. That's an absolutely devastating retort. Clearly you're qualified to comment.
Username, your logic defies belief and you wouldn't have a clue.
I sincerely hope that Defence isn't employing people these days with such shabby reasoning. If so, God help us all.
Please riddle me how:
Please, please tell me how you put 2+2 together and got 5. I'd really appreciate it.
We now equate airspace management to running a gym. That's an absolutely devastating retort. Clearly you're qualified to comment.
Username, your logic defies belief and you wouldn't have a clue.
I sincerely hope that Defence isn't employing people these days with such shabby reasoning. If so, God help us all.
Please riddle me how:
The fact that you are arguing against Dick's comment tells me you have never spent a minute in defence...
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Wow... Just... Wow.
Howabout,
A student of argumentum ad absurdum, are you?
At no point did I compare airspace management to running a gym.
Your reply clearly indicates that you have absolutely no clue about operating in a Defence environment, and as such, I feel no need to flatter you by arguing with you about something you are clearly not qualified to speak about.
A student of argumentum ad absurdum, are you?
At no point did I compare airspace management to running a gym.
Your reply clearly indicates that you have absolutely no clue about operating in a Defence environment, and as such, I feel no need to flatter you by arguing with you about something you are clearly not qualified to speak about.
The interesting thing is that the SID off rwy 12 has a turn at 600' which turns an aircraft well away from Stockton Beach. The problem is ATC insist on sending us off on visual departures which company procedures require a turn no earlier than 1000' so putting us closer to the beach and a possible conflict with VFR traffic.
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i have to agree with RatsoreA and Dick Smith with his comment...spot on. i know first hand just how behind their procedures and processes are.
though only holding for 7 to 9 minutes... a luxury, i have been held at the same locations for 15 minutes sometimes. waiting for something to arrive on 12 from 20 miles out.
though only holding for 7 to 9 minutes... a luxury, i have been held at the same locations for 15 minutes sometimes. waiting for something to arrive on 12 from 20 miles out.
Last edited by Ultralights; 12th Jul 2013 at 10:59.
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I do not always agree with Dick either, he actually tried to slay my credibility on national radio once, funny as heck, but I do agree. Willy and its airspace is a mess. It is a mess for VFR's IFR's and probably the Air Force as well.
One of my mates operates the airspace around it .....and boy
do some of those stories make your eyes water.
RatsoreA and co may be some of the few on the inside that understand.
Where is DBTW with an expert opinion? He should know not only how it is but how it should be.
The secret to knowing when something is wrong, is to know what it should look like when it is right!
One of my mates operates the airspace around it .....and boy
do some of those stories make your eyes water.RatsoreA and co may be some of the few on the inside that understand.
Where is DBTW with an expert opinion? He should know not only how it is but how it should be.
The secret to knowing when something is wrong, is to know what it should look like when it is right!
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I agree that lighties should be able to run coastal at willy VFR at 500ft with no clearance - and have for years.
My comment is about the childish and nonsensical stretch statements that Dick invariably makes in trying to bolster his argument - in this case linking the ability of the RAAF to manage (or not) an operational scenario to the existence of a rule(s) that he doesn't like.
My comment is about the childish and nonsensical stretch statements that Dick invariably makes in trying to bolster his argument - in this case linking the ability of the RAAF to manage (or not) an operational scenario to the existence of a rule(s) that he doesn't like.
Last edited by ftrplt; 12th Jul 2013 at 11:21.
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When I was very (very) young; I actually believed that a promise made, was a promise to be kept. But; I was young then; since then; like Lincoln, I have learned that it is easier to be silent and be thought a fool than speak and confirm the notion. To much talk about the campfire boys; no where near enough action.
Far too many 'wanabees' getting roughed up by the GWM. Dick – step up, or shut up; two choices, not too many options.
"When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways."
Far too many 'wanabees' getting roughed up by the GWM. Dick – step up, or shut up; two choices, not too many options.
Last edited by Kharon; 12th Jul 2013 at 11:50.
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My comment is about the childish and nonsensical stretch statements that Dick invariably makes in trying to bolster his argument - in this case linking the ability of the RAAF to manage (or not) an operational scenario to the existence of a rule(s) that he doesn't like.
Aviation should move with the times, but it seems to be mired in old world thinking. Progress seems to move (in the lower end/GA and regulation) with all the speed of a herd of turtles stampeding through cold honey.
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Dick's right. Y'all ever been to a RAAF dining in night? Ever been confronted with the utter chaos of 'banter'? Outdated and an utter outrage in 2013. It will get someone killed! KILLED I TELLS YA!
Rules and regs, rules and regs. Most of the rules and regs are quite sensible and if anything OVERLY cautious. But a comparison akin to a bloke in a Cherokee or Robinson flying VFR on a coastal run past Willy and a JTAC calling fast air in on Terry Taliban in Oruzgan just isn't called for.
If Willy procedures aren't right, let's consider that without having petty snipes at the RAAF. Petty snipes at the RAAF is the Army's job, not Mr. Smith's
I simply don't know how the Air Force would ever be able to fight a war when the rules and regulations your people have to comply with are so out of date and so reckless and dangerous
If Willy procedures aren't right, let's consider that without having petty snipes at the RAAF. Petty snipes at the RAAF is the Army's job, not Mr. Smith's
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let's consider that without having petty snipes at the RAAF. Petty snipes at the RAAF is the Army's job,
i unfortunately have to work with all 3.
Last edited by Ultralights; 12th Jul 2013 at 13:05.
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Perhaps Hoody can put Willy (William town that is) at the top of his agenda? After all he does know how to get **** fixed, no doubt about that, question is does he have the authority and enough of the folding stuff to do it?
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Lunch just gone in the cricket.
Like This, I can only assume you've just come from one of those dining-in nights and that the port was flowing.
I suggest you read your post in the morning after a few orange juices and a good grease-fix to sober up in the mess. Cringe-worthy is probably too generous.
This is about some serious allegations that the RAAF threatens aviation safety. It's a proposition constantly put without any concrete argument.
Air Force does nothing more than adhere to the required separation standards mandated in the civil/military books.
If anyone can come up with a (legal) civil standard as regards the original complaint then please tell me. I am all ears.
Poms 5/176.
Like This, I can only assume you've just come from one of those dining-in nights and that the port was flowing.
I suggest you read your post in the morning after a few orange juices and a good grease-fix to sober up in the mess. Cringe-worthy is probably too generous.
This is about some serious allegations that the RAAF threatens aviation safety. It's a proposition constantly put without any concrete argument.
Air Force does nothing more than adhere to the required separation standards mandated in the civil/military books.
If anyone can come up with a (legal) civil standard as regards the original complaint then please tell me. I am all ears.
Poms 5/176.