Excuse me, can I borrow your map!

[Churchills Ghost]

Britain had to rely on maps from Germany in its support for the uprising against Colonel Gaddafi in Libya.

In an embarrassment for British spies, they ended up depending on help from a country that refused to back the rebels.

It was the first time the UK had to rely on Germany for military assistance since 1815 when the Prussian army of Gebhard von Blucher helped Wellington defeat Napoleon at Waterloo.

Is there simply no end to the poverty of pride in our government?

I feel ashamed.

How Britain had to ask Germany for maps of Libya during revolt against Gaddafi | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2359852/How-Britain-ask-Germany-maps-Libya-revolt-Gaddafi.html)

[getsometimein]

Alternative headline:

"Britain saves money by not charting the entire world from 1:25k to 1:1mill"

[Pontius Navigator]

Ghost of Churchill, I am sure there is more to this than appears.

There is military mapping for the whole world. Rather than every country producing its own mapping to the same specifications - JOG, TPC, TTC, TNC, JNC, GC etc - there was an agreement for different countries to produce the mapping for a given region but to the common specification. I expect that would explain why Libya was covered with German mapping.

At least today most of the world is surveyed. When first flying over Africa large parts of the chart were blank or roads did not join up and features were marked (reported) or (possible).

Getsomein: you beat me to it.

Incidentally it would not be the first time. Many of the target photographs used by JARIC in the 60s to illustrate our deterrent targets were from German sources.

[Wensleydale]

It was the first time the UK had to rely on Germany for military assistance
since 1815 when the Prussian army of Gebhard von Blucher helped Wellington
defeat Napoleon at Waterloo.


Not including Ultra of course! (or indeed the Consol navigation system).:=

[Churchills Ghost]

When first flying over Africa large parts of the chart were blank or roads did not join up and features were marked (reported) or (possible).

My father flew Imperial flying boats to East Africa. Some of his original maps of the area (now in my loft) have large white spaces which simply say "relief data incomplete".

[BEagle]

No doubt the maps PN used in training were marked 'hic sunt dracones'?

Even in the late 1970s, the French low level 50 thou maps we used in the Vulcan came from the days of Napoleon! Railways had yet to be invented.....:hmm:

[NutLoose]

At least today most of the world is surveyed. When first flying over Africa large parts of the chart were blank or roads did not join up and features were marked (reported) or (possible).


True, but at least you found Livingstone.....

;)

[airborne_artist]

When Pere Artist was driving HMS Endurance there were charts of parts of the S Atlantic still in use that only had information derived from Cook's voyages :\

[sisemen]

Some of his original maps of the area (now in my loft) have large white spaces which simply say "relief data incomplete".

Never mind the days of the flying boats, the maps that we used on the Mountain/Desert Rescue Team at Sharjah in the late 60's had the same blank spaces and comments. Nowadays those spaces seem to be filled with 6 lane bitumenised highways.

[Kerosene Kraut]

Why not just get the best maps available? I mean we are NATO partners aren't we?

[sitigeltfel]

Libyan maps.......

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR3H54321DT9coYnOR7AKq1ko5W_zk8CTZm6ZOV4Lg ngqgJq22k
http://www.pprune.org/data:image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wCEAAkGBxITEhQUExQUFhUXGBoaGBgYGBgYFxYaGB0cGBgYGhgeHCgiGhwl HBoVITEhJSkrLi4uGh8zODMsNygtLisBCgoKDg0OGxAQGzQkHyQ0LC4sLCwt LCwsLC8sLzQtLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLP/AABEIAI4AyAMBIgACEQEDEQH/xAAbAAABBQEBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQIDBAcGBf/EAEQQAAECAwMJBAYIBQQDAQAAAAEAAgMRIQQxkQYSQVFhcYGh8AUisdETMnL B4fEHI0JSU2KSshQzQ6LCFiRzgjRjgxX/xAAZAQACAwEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQIDBAX/xAAnEQACAQIFBAIDAQAAAAAAAAAAAQIDEQQhMUFRExQy8BJxM2GBIv/aAAwDAQACEQMRAD8A3FCEIAEIQgAQorXHDGPebmtLjwE1yMDL0f1LO4ew8O8 Q1Vzqwg7SZZClOavFHZrxrZlLZ4UYwYji1wAM5EtqJ3i74ryj9INlaC57YzA L5tDv2krju1o5iR4z/vPMt1w3UAVNXEJJOGZfRwzbamrGqWPtOBF/lxWOOoOBOF6trEIsISrKfU1JDtERo7kSI32XubiAQoLFvdFjwa2ZtaFj8Pt+ 2NoLQ+Q1kHmQVch5a21v22OlrYK4SVixUeCt4OezRqiFnDPpCtDaugwXj8rn sOPe8FegfSMz+pZ3t9h7X+OaprEU3uQeGqLY7lC5WDl/YyBMxGnUWE82zC9GBlVYnmQtEMH8xzf3SU1Ui9yt0prVHsoUFmtkOJ/LiMf7Lg7wKnUyu1gQhCABCEIAEIQgAQhCABCEIAELjsvI5D4Ga5zXBsQ91xa ZEsGjcuad2nH/ABon63eayzxShJxsaoYZzipXO9yvi5tki/mAb+ogLNYk7ktntcaI6KHxIjmtzAA55IzjNzqT0ANrtSRLrvNY61TqSua6NP pxsUY4nEhM0F0zuZ3j4SV97KzVXs/vR4jtENgaNjohvwbzV9zVCxbcrGHsSOh81aDSmEJjuVHWfYmmH1erubsu96T NrrQK5R9Abr0joemVFeDD5oLVJIR53ojvKHQ5/JXSyV2hIYY0GqdhXPLdZAb2twxkpodpjM9SLGaNTXvAwBkrJhy6wTTCHWzT4 IQrliDlLbmXWh5AuBzXYzE1cs+X9ub63oomwslza4Lx3wtXHyUTmeG9WKclu QdOL2Osg/SdEH8yzNdW9kQtwBaZ4r0YX0nWc+tBjt4MI/cs7cwSuNE3M61KarTW5W6EHsaqPpCsOl0Qf/N/kug7M7RhWiGIkJ2cwzE5EVFCJHasEMKmha59Gv8A4LB+Z/Mz96upVZSlZlFajGEbo6pCELQZgQhCAOFy8E48MS/p/wCR8ly8W74XLo8tX/7k7GNlzK5XtGLmMc83NBOC5FbOozq0cqaHdkN+qz/vxHu4CTB+0YqaIafH3o7PglkGE114htnvIzjzJVPtq0ZkJ7tIFBt0KG5NaXJ +wh9S5+mJEc7gJMaP7Z8VceE6z2f0cOHDFMxjW7iBXnNJK9SeoLQjI+J8KJP cny3JJc0xjdN4Smeqfx0JDOW1A6n4pgIZSr8upJp5pwGM+ikcMUxCdbtKQtF 48Urm39Xpjhr8UxCEUpqTIg2KQM21x3pjuggRC8b+SY7Xf7lM4qJw2JgV3in XNRxJ4KYjb0VGWSuwQBFmaZfDUFrX0fNlY2byspcbrqrXMhx/sYHsnxKvw/kZ8T4o95CELYYQQhCAM6ytiA2mJszQeAmuO7fBcxsO70r2Q+DiAeU11Hb0QO tEY63kfpkPcuaiOz7bZm/cESKaU7ozRzcuQ3eo39nVStBL6PbjPmSdtNy8e3sD4tnhGodEBdtbD75nvlL ivVdfReZ2Uc+3OJ/owAATrjO8mFRjqSke5HJJJNeM1ATO84KQuoNe5Ru4daUyQ12hE5DqqTOnqA6 5JJpgKZpr3T0aJakrjKt+7kkA28EwHTE+uQTQcErkxzkxCy2UG/oJHu3cOtyQ7jPqcuSC1MQ109WpNdu+ac5unrYmEYIAjOz4KPVu8dieQE1xpp J6odaYiKe2eGlNeZV8dO1Peet6Y5nz1bUAR5vwWv5HNlY4A/IOdVkESVeN62fJ0SssD/jb4BaMNqzNitEeihCFrMQIQgoAye3xJxHuEpGI802uJXi9huLrXa3zP1bIcI f9y5zpH/q27WvSeacJ3c1RyPbOzxIt/pY8R92gEQxLg04rjRzTZ2JLNI9OJSUtWCoZKVhRYv4sZ0vYhdxtN+eeKXt+1 eigRYkvVaTy361e7MsnobPBhGYzIYnO/OlN89symtAevvvJLIa99a/NMc3clfp57Pghz5zGpIkRmQTZ49fBK87QmzKkAkxf1Top8q3/ABTS8zHlekeaV63piFLrq1u80xxmjNx6mjN68UxA8nclJvndr96aCAJcZolI SOPuTEI4fP4Jr23cUpHWtIbqE9aUAMzdqY4HwppUjh1eo9eOCYiNzjSd3mon ynjdz3KQ0SF++t1UAQxbjKZ4hbZ2O2UCENTAMAsTimhnf5rdLO2TWy1BaMNq/wCGbF6L+kiEIWsxAq/aD82FEOpjjgCrCodvRM2zRj+R3MSUZO0WSirtGQ9uRwyzxHXZrDU616HY1k9 HZIDK0hMnpq4ZxrK+Z5rxMsQYkJsFvrRokOEBpAcRM8BNdTaM2dAZDEC4S4S XIXidZu8jnu34QiOgQKyjR2A31Yyb4gwbLiF79ojTJMzUzxXjWNvpO0BMGVn gOJ9qMQGjZRjl6z5kHSPBPZAtWxhp1VNaZ3hBnoSSp1vQSIyQkA3pX0l1XqS QUOPXwTAa0jXp29SSJXXVNNmhJIaOPFMQjW6+O73JCBRK4UPnVBTAaTWl3U0 SpQ4oEq1HPak2163pkQcfl1wSl1NHH3JpISPMzeJ70CEceKjGyc9KkmaCvWx RkbMNaYELzoB0GXzCYSNHCiVxEtvKmhNzhKuJQAZsyBWrgN0zs4rdIHqt3Dw WG2IfXQhrey6v2hfwW6MbIAalqw25kxbzQqEIWkyAvJyqfKyxdoAxIXrLw8s SP4Y7XN8VXVf+H9FlJXmvsyyKc632RopmCNF/S0ME9hLzgvZiundKu2lfcvJ7K71ttT/w4UKGNU4hc9/HutxV+0HrauW9EveTprVv3gq5IQS4Wq0G+NGLGnRmQO42mvPdFXqxXDZ4cF4 3Z1s/hoMOAID3NYD3mvbnPLjnOcWkAAzOtXR2tA0l7aTk+G8f3AFvNSau8hRyWZYn 0ZdBRy13XJzIjXeo9jrrnDT0Erm3zSJjXDWMNShPGvQU4npN2Ca9nWlMCEA9 bE0tUpB1bkFoQBANnBDhOXgnlnjgR80maRd11VMRGSmvM9XlwwT3CV23ftQ4 eFFIQzSZUn1gkIl1cpCa3bNCad6BDZXzI1T0cFC8/HepXAC+Xx+ajcw65ePVyYiGJovPCXJQuNaiQmpojZqE/OtEATdmtnaIX/I3kZrdFiOTjc612cE3vANNMituWrD6Mx4ryQIQhaDMC5vLp31MMa4gEtfdcu kXKZePpAH5nHiAAP3KnEfjZdQ/IjP7JOAI02uJixDEJbKnda0NkTOmbzTz2nDoHF7TtY6X9oM1ai8L+veoHMF+ C5p0rDG2mC6UosM6u81pJ3Eg8VYZAndIz1V4Ku+ECatB1iQ3JpsEOcyxuHlw QPMt+grVnGQRdr2VNfK9Vm2RouLxue4DkUohvnIRYolom137gVIMyw/OnR1bu8AZeCabRFFc2GaaC9s/3JrDF++HH80Nn+MkgfE/9RuH2mnbe44piHfxNTOFEGmha73hH/6EGUi/MM5Se1zTtrKXNNznfht2SfhoSujX/VuxacK9STEWGSd6rmO9lzTPApItlOog6AqT2MNXQ3fon4TTWGGPtObO4D0oB xEhenYC6IZnOYHNNYzbswUDbQJy9OKaCYZrvkDKilEZx+4TrqDxqUWFcUjVS s6C9RNHmp88n1mmcp3gy5BNcRKucNXdJ8JpiuV3Q5pHw75mqlMVhJm9okbiZ TxltQ5s/VkdxmJe9AFN+vCnuUJBHnJXI0EgXEeWCrxYeoka7uqS5oGi1kjDP8bAldnzN dhuW0rIMimTt0Iag43DRVa+tdDxMOJ8wQhCvM4Lmsrezo0Z0P0bM4NDp95oq 4t0Ej7q6VChOCnH4slCbg7ozV2T1qnWE7FsjzUf+nLX+CcW+a05Cp7WHLNHd z4Xv9MxOT1r/Bdi3zvThk3avwziPNaYhHaw/Yd3P9GbjJq0/cUwyUtJrmsxlitCQn20Bd1Mz4ZJWqdzP1J4yTtFJhv6gu+Qn28Bd1M4H/R8c35uPxUwyMjSH1jMCu4Qn0IC7mpycKMiYs5+kZgVI3IuJ+I3BdshPoQ4Du KnJxzciJisXhmjxQcg2aXj9AniuxQn0YcEevU5OQZkFBEu8ZKQZB2cXPjDc8 j3rq0J9OPAurPk5YZEQdMWMRqc6fiE45CWI1dDzjoNx5cF06E/hHgXUlycg/6PbN9mJaGezFd/kSF6EbI+yOvh12EjwXvoR8I8B85cnPdl5IwIEYRYZfnAESJJFb710KEJqKWh GUnLNghCExH/2Q==

[Madbob]

AA but at least we could take some national pride that the charts were made by Captain Cook RN, not by Herr Kapitain Cook or by M. Captaine Cook!

The sad truth is that there was a time when GB lead the world and were the first to develop such things as radar, the steam turbine, the gas turbine (jet engine), the steam catapult, the angled flight deck, VSTOL flight etc. etc. but we don't anymore. Now we aren't even a bit-part player and are totally out of the race and can't even field a team.

MB

[Cows getting bigger]

Very early days of the Kosovo skirmish and some of us were flying around Albania and FYROM on Michelin Road maps (someone else had bagged all the Little Chef maps :) ). Then again, we were also tasking through our mobile phones as the initial siggie rebro coverage was patchy.

Ho Hum.

[Churchills Ghost]

sitigeltfel - Most amusing.

Madbob - Fully agree and this (for me) is the crux of the matter, that our government have no more pride in Britain and are unwilling to do what it takes to promote that spirit of initiative or the pioneering attitude which has for so many generations been an integral part of our culture.

I fear for our nation believing we are on the cusp of irreversible demise. :(

[airborne_artist]

Churchills Ghost sitigeltfel - Most amusing.

Madbob - Fully agree and this (for me) is the crux of the matter, that our government have no more pride in Britain and are unwilling to do what it takes to promote that spirit of initiative or the pioneering attitude which has for so many generations been an integral part of our culture.

I fear for our nation believing we are on the cusp of irreversible demise. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/sowee.gif

But isn't that what all Daily Mail readers believe? ;)

[Alex Whittingham]

I heard a long time ago that when the US bombed Gaddafi in 1986 they also used Wermacht maps and that the difference in grids between the WWII maps and WGS84 was why some of the ordnance fell off target.

[CoffmanStarter]

Don't worry RAF No 1 AIDU have been issuing accurate Airways Maps and FLIPs since the 1500's :E

http://www.antiquemaps.co.uk/graphics/plate5.jpg

[gr4techie]

Do we still have an air cartographer trade?

I thought one of the roles for PRU's (when we still had Canberras) was mapping?

[oxenos]

Sailing around the Greek islands, only about 20 years ago, the only avalable charts (and I still have one) were Admiralty Charts.
In the corner it says
" Surveyed by Captain A.L.Mansell, R.N.
Assisted by the Officers of H.M.S. Hydra, 1864-5"

[ralphmalph]

Imagery Recce, satellite or other means.

Google earth, or other means..

Programme your brick....

Fly.

Use map as a bit of a handrail.

Most modern aircraft utilise MPS of some kind or another.....if the plan changes....think twice about going off the line!

[Milo Minderbinder]

"S Atlantic still in use that only had information derived from Cook's voyages "

I was under the impression that some of Dampier's surveys from 100 years earlier were still the basis for mapping parts of the Pacific and Malaysia / Indonesia

[smujsmith]

I'm not sure about maps, but, I hung out of a para door on Albert for some interesting trips in the months leading up to GW1. We were looking for good FARP locations for hooking up with Chinooks in preparation for infil of "the hooligans" ! In conversation our Nav mentioned that we were programming our then new SCINS (Special Configuration Inertial Nav System) a blend of INS and Satnav from 1930s Shell Oil company exploration maps. The old strips were all there, and recognisable from the air. A quick "roller" and appropriate press of a button stored the touchdown point. We later used these button presses to do the job at night on NVG. I'm posting this so it must have worked :ok:

Smudge

Sorry FARP, Forward Air Refuelling Point. Land Herk on ATC strip, run out two hoses from Herk refuelling point. Two chinooks pitch up, Chinooks refuel from Herk, wait a while, Chinooks pitch up again, refuel again, Chinooks go home, wrap up kit, Albert goes home. Hope that clears that one up, basically range extension for chinooks, bless em.:ok:

[500N]

""S Atlantic still in use that only had information derived from Cook's voyages ""

And didn't a RM Major who had sailed around the Falklands
have more detailed information about them than anyone else ?

[Pontius Navigator]

500N, Euan Sothby-Tailour. I was sitting behind him at a lecture. On the Friday people started to be called out during the lecture and the audience, many from Main Building but also around UK were called out. When I got to Tottenham Court Road tube station a little later there was a chalked blackboard outside "3 Para return to barracks".