Two JAR licences to one EASA licence - problems

[Trim Stab]

I currently hold a CAA JAR PPL and a DGAC French CPL. I have approached both the CAA and DGAC to ask about combining all qualifications from both licences onto a single CPL. Oddly, both authorities refuse to recognise some qualifications from the other - so if I am to abide by the rules I stand to lose qualifications. I rang the EASA today about this, and I was surprised to learn that this is indeed the case - national authorities still have the right to refuse to recognise qualifications gained under other authorities.

[Whopity]

The DGAC must have a process to convert your French National Licence to an EASA licence. Once issued this will include PPL privileges and must be recognised by the UK CAA!

[Trim Stab]

Unfortunately not so simple!

The DGAC will not recognise level 6 English from my CAA JAR PPL.
The CAA will not recognise level 6 French from my DGAC JAR CPL.

Whichever route I take, I stand to lose a qualification. I actually rang EASA about this today, and they informed me that national authorities are not obliged to recognise national qualifications from other JAR members, though they may accept them at their own discretion. Apparently this extends to all national qualifications, which includes instructor ratings, mountain ratings, aerobatic ratings etc.

[Whopity]

In your other thread you said you want a UK EASA CPL. No, they will not put level 6 or 5 or 4 on it in any other language, because there is no requirement to do so. It does not stop you speaking French though for those fields where you need to. An RT Licence can be issued in any language of the Union (ITU). It does not seem to be presenting other French pilots a problem. I have signed up several for Level 6 English to put on a UK issued EASA licence. They all wanted a UK EASA licence in preference to a French one. Nobody can insist you have a language on your licence for which there is no EU or ICAO requirement. An EASA licence is valid in all States.

they informed me that national authorities are not obliged to recognise national qualifications from other JAR members, This is true which is why I suggested you follow the conversion route in the State that issued the ratings. Once they are on a EASA licence, then they are acceptable.

[S-Works]

I went through this awhile ago merging a UK CAA JAA licence and another country JAA licence. The UK CAA merged all of the ratings without issue.

As Whopity says there should be no issue with the Language Level. You are only required to have the English level on it nothing else. If you speak French then you are not going to have a issue at a French Airfield.

[Trim Stab]

If you speak French then you are not going to have a issue at a French Airfield.

Not at the moment, but it may become an issue in the future.

[S-Works]

I doubt it. The big airports have to speak English. The small airfields are not likely to be ramp checked and as its not an ICAO or EASA requirement to have non English language proficiency displayed on a Part FCL licence then they are not going to be able to enforce it. If you are stopped and are Level 6 French then you will have no problem explaining to them the facts!!

I got ramp checked at Biarritz last week and they were only interested in seeing that my CPL and medical were current and the aircraft documents not my language level.

You are worrying over nothing methinks.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Unfortunately not so simple!

The DGAC will not recognise level 6 English from my CAA JAR PPL.
The CAA will not recognise level 6 French from my DGAC JAR CPL.

Whichever route I take, I stand to lose a qualification. I actually rang EASA about this today, and they informed me that national authorities are not obliged to recognise national qualifications from other JAR members, though they may accept them at their own discretion. Apparently this extends to all national qualifications, which includes instructor ratings, mountain ratings, aerobatic ratings etc.

I think that has just explained Europe beautifully! If, officially, the French don't recognise that the British can determine if somebody can competently speak English, and similarly the British don't recognise that the French can determine if somebody can competently speak French or not, there is no real fear for a European superstate ever actually occurring.

G

[Curtis E Carr]

Oddly, both authorities refuse to recognise some qualifications from the other

From JAR-FCL 2.065 (e):

An applicant shall hold only one JAR– FCL licence (aeroplane) and only one medical certificate at any time.

Why do you hold two JAR licences?

[Trim Stab]

Why do you hold two JAR licences?

When I did my JAR CPL in France, I handed in my CAA JAR PPL as per the requirements. The DGAC returned it to me because they would not accept my CAA English level 6.

I'm trying again to have just one licence, but I don't want to give up any privileges on either.

[Whopity]

As a matter of interest what level ELP do you have on your French licence? On what grounds do they refuse the Level 6 on your UK licence, did they require an additional assessment?
From the basic regulation:

Article 11
Recognition of certificates
1. Member States shall, without further technical requirements
or evaluation, recognise certificates issued in accordance with
this Regulation. When the original recognition is for a particular
purpose or purposes, any subsequent recognition shall cover
only the same purpose or purposes.

I could understand them not accepting Level 6 on a UK JAA licence because the level was not printed on the licence. It is printed on an EASA licence!

[2close]

If, officially, the French don't recognise that the British can determine if somebody can competently speak English,...........

I've been doing formal Aviation English testing for over four years now and the one case that I still find somewhat amusing is the English born and bred ATCO, living and working in France, who was tested for proficiency in the English language by a French Aviation English Assessor and signed off at Level 5. :confused:

A touch of "power-pi55ed" methinks!! :)

[Whopity]

A touch of "power-pi55ed" methinks!!Not if he came from Newcastle!

[2close]

Good grief man........"Geordie-ism" in this PC age of non-discriminatory behaviour.......I expected far greater things than this of you, Whoppity! :)

But the fact of the matter is......you are spot on! A recent student of ours will never get a job outside Noocassle Airport, or maybe as Cheryl Cole's driver........mmmm, I can think of worse jobs (perks depending)!

Funnily enough, many years back, in a previous life I had to interview a guy with the broadest Fermanagh (Northern Ireland for those geographically challenged) accent and genuinely required an interpreter!!! :eek:

Enough thread creep from me.......back to the subject in hand! :)

[Whopity]

The whole point of ELP was to ensure a common language standard for those involved with IFR International flights, both aircrew and ATC. It was never intended to be a National issue, involve other languages or impinge on GA VFR flights!

[2close]

Exactly....and in response (albeit very slow time) to a number of major incidents involving significant loss of life, whereby a major contributory factor was misunderstanding of communications.

Nevertheless, I am not in the slightest bit surprised that certain countries decide to impose their own requirements for their own country.

But what happens when an English (only) speaking person, flying internationally (and very legally) in the EU with an ELPA Level 4+, happens to find himself needing to communicate with someone in the vicinity of an AD notified by a non-English speaking national aviation authority as requiring that nation's mother tongue to be spoken outside published AD hours. Surely he can't be said to be breaking any EU laws because he is fully compliant with Part FCL but what if the NAA decides to jump on him because he hasn't complied with their national laws.

Yet another example of an EASA failure.

If every member state is not going to sing from the same hymn sheet, then what is the bl**dy point of EASA? It is just going back down the same road as the JAA.

I reckon (and I may be wrong!) that, give it a couple of years and either someone in authority at EASA Central will have thrown his teddy bear out of the pram and said "enough is enough - you're all doing the same and that's it" or we'll have another free-for-all, with individual member states putting their own spin on things.

Rant over, soap-box back in cupboard and back to Ladies Annual Grunting Competition! :)

(Although these two are unbelievably quiet in comparison to some)

[S-Works]

Why do you hold two JAR licences?

In my case I held a UK licence and another pre JAA country national licence. When they became JAA compliant my licence was grandfathered into JAA and I ended up with two licences that were both JAA. Neither country wanted to merge them so I held both for several years until they were eventually merged under the UK. Subsequently converted to Part FCL.

[much2much]

Newcastle,Dudley. Peterhead,Devises or parts of SX, all have strong regional accents, enough of the north south chip:or spent to much time watching re runs of Hello , Hello!!