Keeping gliding options open from 2015

[Thoughtful_Flyer]

I'd be grateful for any advice. I've spent ages reading the BGA website but I'm little wiser!

I'm in my mid fifties and stopped flying gliders about ten years ago. At that point I had a Silver C and a BI rating. I also had the BGA issued "Glider Pilot's Licence" for what it was worth!

I've always had it in mind to get back in the cockpit but I'm unlikely to do that before the new licence comes into effect in 2015.

What is the best course of action to keep my options open?

Obviously I realise I will need significant dual flying before going solo again but I would prefer to avoid having to retake exams etc.

Thanks.

[astir 8]

Good question. Wish I knew the answer. Stick to Annex II gliders?

[Sir George Cayley]

WARNING :eek:

Outbreak of common sense found at BGA!!!

We'll have to stamps this out:hmm:

SGC

[Thoughtful_Flyer]

I was advised by the BGA that your glider licence never expires, I completed my Silver 'C' and was considering starting again after 30+ years, when I contacted the BGA they had my details on file and advised it was a case of training as required to solo again.

When was this?

I would have expected that to be the case in the past but I had understood (maybe wrongly) that you needed to be current to migrate to the new legal licence.

Obviously currently there is no legal requirement to have any kind of licence to fly a glider but that is going to change.

Also, I don't understand the reference to "Annex II"

[chrisN]

TF, I don’t know if anybody knows for certain for your circumstances, but your best plan might be to get current again soon, so that your BGA licence can be converted to an EASA licence by what would then be “grandfather rights” without further tests and examinations, before April 2015. Don’t leave it to the last minute.

The reference to Annex 2 is to certain old glider types (listed in Annex 2 of the relevant legislation) which will be able to be flown after 2015 without an EASA licence. It would be rather restrictive. I don’t see how you could get to fly one after 2015 if you had not already become current again – your retraining would be on current (Annex 1) gliders, and to resolo I would expect you would have to do that on the gliding club’s training glider, which would be Annex 1.

But somebody else may know better.

HTH.

Chris N

[Piper.Classique]

I would second the advice to get current before 2015. Might be overkill, but might also save a lot of hassle.

[Thoughtful_Flyer]

TF, I don’t know if anybody knows for certain for your circumstances, but your best plan might be to get current again soon, so that your BGA licence can be converted to an EASA licence by what would then be “grandfather rights” without further tests and examinations, before April 2015. Don’t leave it to the last minute.

I appreciate that but, for various reasons, that may not be possible.

My current plan was to get back into gliding in about five years time. I don't fully understand the proposed conversion process but there seemed to be requirements for log book evidence to be signed by a club CFI etc.

Not relevant to me but what would happen in the case of somebody who was current but flew independently of a BGA club? I know the BGA like to think they have a monopoly and total control but actually they don't!

[chrisN]

For you, then you will have to take your chance and find out eventually what will be needed. Don’t be surprised if it is not only flying retraining already discussed, but also EASA examinations and flight test.

For your last query, again I don’t know for certain but if current and they have a BGA licence I believe that they could convert, They might find that easier if they were to join a BGA club at the time. They couldn’t reasonably expect the BGA to work for their conversion if they are not members of a BGA club. Their alternative AIUI would be to continue flying but only in Annex 2 gliders.

As for your last comment, you evidently have a biased and distorted view of those of us in the BGA. We do not think we have a monopoly, some of us have over the years been involved in helping non-BGA clubs to join but certainly we could not make them. I think I know a lot more about that than you are likely to, and certainly I know more than you give any credit for.

Chris N

[Thoughtful_Flyer]

As for your last comment, you evidently have a biased and distorted view of those of us in the BGA. We do not think we have a monopoly, some of us have over the years been involved in helping non-BGA clubs to join but certainly we could not make them. I think I know a lot more about that than you are likely to, and certainly I know more than you give any credit for.

Thanks for the other information.

Re your last paragraph:

No, not at all. I was always a member of a BGA club and regularly visited a couple of others. However I could see both sides. At the time I was very involved, at the highest levels, with my own professional body which was in a similar position to the BGA. You didn't have to be a member and we didn't have any statutory powers but did our best to gloss over that!

[Prop swinger]

To convert you will need Bronze badge + cross country endorsement & certified logbook evidence of previous launches to gain equivalent launch rating (& a medical of course.) It is likely that the person certifying your logbook evidence & signing the conversion form will have to be the club CFI (ie head of training.)

There may or may not be a currency requirement. I'm betting not, & that you would be issued with an LAPL(S) or SPL but that you would have to fulfil EASA sailplane recency requirements before exercising the privileges.

If you don't manage to convert in time you can still fly EASA gliders as an unlicensed student at an ATO, effectively a BGA club. You would be under the supervision of an instructor, ie local soaring in the same way as a power pilot does solo circuit practice. Your power licence will give you about half off the 15 hours minimum training to get a sailplane licence. Some exams are common to all aircraft types, you would have to take the sailplane versions of the others.

Once you are licenced there would be no requirement to operate within a BGA club. You could self launch off a farm strip or aerotow behind a qualified tug pilot if you wanted to, but the rolling recency requirement, including two training flights with an instructor in the previous 24 months, would still apply.

[chrisN]

AFAIK, the above is all correct. Where the detail differs from my resume, I think PS is correct. PS, do you also agree with me about annex 2 if no EASA licence?

Chris N

[Prop swinger]

Of course. No EASA licence needed for non EASA aircraft.

Non EASA / Annex II gliders are easily recognised - no G-reg.

[Thoughtful_Flyer]

To convert you will need Bronze badge + cross country endorsement & certified logbook evidence of previous launches to gain equivalent launch rating (& a medical of course.) It is likely that the person certifying your logbook evidence & signing the conversion form will have to be the club CFI (ie head of training.)

There may or may not be a currency requirement. I'm betting not, & that you would be issued with an LAPL(S) or SPL but that you would have to fulfil EASA sailplane recency requirements before exercising the privileges.

OK, thanks. That is what I needed to know. I have all the requirements (and more) apart from the medical. What I don't have is a CFI to certify my logbook as I'm not a member of a club. How do I get round that problem?

The CFI of my former club (who signed off by BI acceptance etc) has sadly died and I've never even met the club's current incumbent, even if he would be allowed to do it for a non member.

Also, I don't have a power licence. One additional reason for not wanting to lose what I have got is to get credit towards a power licence if I ever wanted to go down that route in the future

[OpenCirrus619]

I am in a similar position - Silver 'C', BGA Glider Pilot Licence but haven't flown gliders for 4-5 years.

Though no-one has given me a definitive answer the current best "guess" is that, when the new rules come into force, there will be a transition period - during which anyone who meets the requirements (including currency) will be able to get the EASA licence as a paperwork (plus payment) exercise.

If you wait until after the transition period then it's likely there will be training requirements / exams / ... needed.

I'm going to pay for a week course, to get current again in a club glider, and then apply for the EASA licence - seems the safest course of action to me.

OC619

[Thoughtful_Flyer]

I'm going to pay for a week course, to get current again in a club glider, and then apply for the EASA licence - seems the safest course of action to me.

My only question about that is how it would help with getting previous log book experience certified by an approved person (whoever that may be). Fine if the week's course yields all of the flying necessary but otherwise how does the person know if what it claimed in your logbook is true?

Given that the BGA must (presumably) have all the evidence on file from my bronze, cross country endorsement, silver and "licence" why does it need to be certified again?

The cynic in me (and ChrisN won't like this!) wonders if the BGA has a policy of only helping those currently in an affiliated club and making it hard / impossible for others?

[OpenCirrus619]

Both the clubs I'm considering flying at will include 3 months membership and affiliation in the price of the course - so the CFI will (hopefully) be happy to certify and the BGA will be happy I'm affiliated.

At least that's how I'm hoping it will work.

OC619

[astir 8]

Hi TF

Most gliding clubs I know keep some form of records of launches and hours flown (if for no better reason than being able to charge for launches and flying time). Your old club may therefore have enough information to be able to check sample entries in your log book.

Even if you're not a member any more the current CFI may be willing to sign off at least some of your flying on that basis. There's no harm in asking!

I know my current CFI won't be in a position to verify all my 3000-odd launches spread over 30 years at several different gliding clubs in several different countries! Ultimately responsibility for logbook accuracy rests with the applicant. I believe that in power/commercial flying, people have been prosecuted for forgery/uttering false documents when they've been caught fiddling logbooks so I guess the same could apply to glider pilots applying for the new licence.

We will be having to apply to the CAA/EASA and not the BGA for this new ****** licence. So I guess that even if the BGA has the information, we will still have to supply the details of gliding certificates (date, number, copy of the little green FAI book?) to EASA.

[Prop swinger]

You need certified logbook evidence for each launch endorsement (winch/car, aerotow, bungee & self-launch) you want to include on an EASA sailplane licence during the conversion.

You will be asking somebody to put their name to a legal document attesting to the bona fides of some bloke they only met 5 minutes ago, on the basis of a few dog-eared 10 year old documents. They're unlikely to have launch records from 10 years ago so it would probably help if there are people who remember you. I'm sure the BGA & clubs would like to be helpful but a helicopter instructor was recently sent to prison for being too helpful.

OC619, your best guess is the definitive answer. I recommend the comversion guide from this BGA web page (http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/licensing/easalicensing.htm).

[Oldbiggincfi]

Am I missing something with this thread ?
Has anyone in the UK been Issued with a Glider/Sailplane EASA Licence ?

[Thoughtful_Flyer]

OC619, your best guess is the definitive answer. I recommend the comversion guide from this BGA web page.

Well, I'm glad you feel that is definitive! I've read it carefully and, at least for my circumstances, I'm little wiser (or better informed)!

[Flyin'Dutch']

No, not yet available.

I understand that its inception is imminent.

[Oldbiggincfi]

I understand that its inception is imminent.


Originally, Early 2013 ? Currently, expected June 2013 ! but there's not much left.

[Thoughtful_Flyer]

No, not yet available.

I understand that its inception is imminent.

Sorry, what I meant was I have read everything that is presently available on the BGA web page you linked.

None of it answers the questions I raised at the start of this thread. Maybe eventually they will. Sadly I suspect it will only be relatively straightforward for those who are currently in a BGA club. If, like me, you haven't flown a glider or been a member of a club for ten or more years I doubt there will be much help.

Equally, if you are current but independent of the BGA (as is your legal right) I suspect you will also be stuffed!

[thing]

Thought it was coming in April 2015?

[Prop swinger]

I've read it carefully and, at least for my circumstances, I'm little wiser (or better informed)! What is it that you are still unsure of?

[Thoughtful_Flyer]

What is it that you are still unsure of?

How I get my logbook evidence (e.g aerotow and winch launch) certified when I have not been a member of a BGA club for over ten years.

As I read it I will need that in addition to a medical and my GPL, Bronze, CC and Silver C all of which the BGA presumably still have on file.

If I was a member of a club and current it would be easy (I assume). However I was not intending to re-start gliding for about another four years.

[cats_five]

It might depend which club(s) you did the gliding at. WhereI fly we have computerised log sheets going back some 20 years. Have you rung the club(s) at which you flew to see if they can help?

[Prop swinger]

How I get my logbook evidence (e.g aerotow and winch launch) certified when I have not been a member of a BGA club for over ten years.You ask someone. There's nothing that says you have to be a member of the same club as the certifier but it will undoubtedly help if they know you. You are not asking that they certify your entire logbook, just that you have flown the minimum number of launches to qualify for a particular launch endorsement.

It may be possible to get a sailplane licence without any launch endorsements. On the power side, a pilot can still apply for an (A) licence even if he hasn't flown for years. His ratings will have lapsed so his new EASA licence won't have any ratings on it, he will have to do further training & testing to add the ratings but at least he will have the licence. It may be possible to do the same with the sailplane licence and launch endorsements.

The BGA conversion route is being negotiated with the CAA for the benefit of the members of BGA clubs. There's nothing to stop you applying directly to the CAA using SRG1104.

[astir 8]

I suppose it could be argued that this kind of assistance is why we've been paying capitation fees to the BGA all these years and ultimately you gets what you pays for.

[Thoughtful_Flyer]

I suppose it could be argued that this kind of assistance is why we've been paying capitation fees to the BGA all these years and ultimately you gets what you pays for.

Whilst I'm sure some would take that view it could also be argued that, as a national body, they should be working for the good of gliding as a whole and not just their members.

It will be interesting to see what happens and what support, if any, I get as a former member of a BGA club (and by extension of the BGA).

Does anybody know the likely total cost? As far as I can gather I would need to see a CAA medical examiner and not just my GP so I fear that will be a couple of hundred or so for starters. How long is the medical valid for? Given I don't expect to restart for at least four years is there not a way of getting the licence but holding off on the medical until the time?

[mary meagher]

Hey, thoughtful flyer, any experienced instructor will be able to tell from your flying whether or not your logbook entries are credible!

We had the pleasure of two old boys turning up at Shenington a few weeks ago who hadn't flown gliders for years and years, yet in a weeks course they were solo again and very pleased.

I am not happy with the notion you could buy a fancy self launching sailplane, take off from your farmstrip, and go swanning about without oversight of some sort.

[Thoughtful_Flyer]

Hey, thoughtful flyer, any experienced instructor will be able to tell from your flying whether or not your logbook entries are credible!

Yes, but that is not really my point. What I'm trying to do is, if you like, protect my investment and make sure that my previous experience and qualifications are not wasted if I re-start in four to five years time.

Obviously I could do a course next year, go solo again and hopefully get my logbook experience signed off then apply for the new licence. However, as I don't intend to restart properly for a further four years that would be largely wasted. What I want to do is get the paperwork sorted then have the minimum necessary training to get back to a safe solo standard when it suits me in the future. My concern is that if I don't do it in this transition window I will have to re-take theory exams etc. What frustrates me is that I cannot get a clear answer from anybody about what happens if, like me, you are an experienced pilot but not current.



I am not happy with the notion you could buy a fancy self launching sailplane, take off from your farmstrip, and go swanning about without oversight of some sort.

No, nor would I be! However you can't even do that under the current system if the glider is self launching. Yes, in theory you could buy an LS8 or whatever and do as you say with a pure glider providing you could get somebody to give you an aerotow. Hopefully nobody would be that stupid .......

[Prop swinger]

What frustrates me is that I cannot get a clear answer from anybody about what happens if, like me, you are an experienced pilot but not current.That's because you haven't asked. The CAA or BGA cannot issue a blanket "you must sign any document that gets put in front of you" command; that would be stupid. Only the certifier can decide whether he is prepared to have his name forever associated with your documents.

As it turns out, the club CFI, chairman & secretary can all act as certifiers for the conversion. I suggest that you make an appointment to meet up with one of these at your nearest club, explain your predicament & ask if it is worth your while getting an EASA medical, ie if you get a medical, would they be prepared to sign your documents?

However you can't even do that under the current system if the glider is self launching. Yes you can, with the appropriate PPL or NPPL. It's no different to flying any other aircraft from a farm strip.

ps. you can get an EASA medical from your GP - advice here (http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/easamedical.htm).

[Thoughtful_Flyer]

Yes you can, with the appropriate PPL or NPPL. It's no different to flying any other aircraft from a farm strip.

I realise that. What I was referring to was that, at the moment, you could fly a glider legally with no qualifications whatsoever providing it was not self launching. Anyway, that is not relevant in my case.

ps. you can get an EASA medical from your GP - advice here.

Thanks, I have read the CAA info before. However because of a past medical problem I would have to see a CAA medical examiner and not just my GP. I would not expect a problem but it will increase the cost.

As it turns out, the club CFI, chairman & secretary can all act as certifiers for the conversion. I suggest that you make an appointment to meet up with one of these at your nearest club, explain your predicament & ask if it is worth your while getting an EASA medical, ie if you get a medical, would they be prepared to sign your documents?

That is helpful, thank you. Obviously it would be easier if one of them was at the club during my time and remembers me but presumably they still have the club logs? Actually, having checked, it is 13 to 15 years ago - time flies if if I currently don't!